Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 01:19am

Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death
A Minnesota reporter said the protest began peacefully but by Wednesday night tear gas had been used and stores were looted.

Protests in Minneapolis over the in-custody death of George Floyd escalated into violence Wednesday night, as stores were looted and police deployed tear gas. At least one fire broke out during the second day of downtown demonstrations by hundreds decrying Floyd's death.

The demonstrations began peacefully but grew more violent as the night went on. Gov. Tim Walz late Wednesday called it an "extremely dangerous situation" and urged residents to leave the area.

It was not immediately clear if there were any arrests or injuries. A police spokesman did not immediately return a request for comment.

A reporter for NBC affiliate KARE11 of Minneapolis who was livestreaming the protest reported that an AutoZone and Target had been looted. Video showed the AutoZone with broken windows and spraypaint. One bystander was warning people against damaging the business, saying it had nothing to do with Floyd's death.

The AutoZone was on fire, a fire department official confirmed Wednesday night. Aerial video and photos showed smoke billowing out of the building and flames inside.

"Initially ... it was just being looted, but at some point, a fire started," Ricardo Lopez, a journalist for the Minnesota Reformer news organization, told KARE11, adding he wasn't sure how it began.

Police moved in to secure the scene so firefighters could come in, he said.

Police Chief Medaria Arradondo told the local FOX 9 TV station that he ordered the use of tear gas after violence and looting. He said that he is committed to protecting the rights of people to demonstrate and most did so peacefully, but there have been groups committing criminal acts.

Arradondo made a call for peace and patience to let the multiple investigations play out Wednesday night.

"Justice historically has never come to fruition through some of the acts that we're seeing tonight, whether it's the looting, whether it's the damage of property and other things," Arradondo said in the FOX interview.

Protesters also gathered in downtown Los Angeles on Wednesday, NBC Los Angeles reported. At times, the demonstrators were on the 101 freeway and blocking traffic.

Some people surrounded two California Highway Patrol vehicles and appeared to damage at least one of them.

"We hear your anger & your pain. We will always facilitate freedom of speech. Period. All we ask is that protests are held in a safe & legal manner," the LAPD tweeted.

Floyd, a 46-year-old black man, died Monday after a white Minneapolis police officer pinned him to the ground and put his knee on Floyd's neck for about eight minutes.

His death was captured on video, and he can be heard pleading with the officer, "Please, please, please, I can't breathe."

The four police officers involved in Floyd's detainment, which stemmed from a report of a forgery, were fired Tuesday. The officer seen with his knee on Floyd has been identified as Derek Chauvin.

Minneapolis police identified the other officers as Thomas Lane, Tou Thao and J. Alexander Kueng.

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey on Wednesday called for charges to be filed against the officer who had his knee on Floyd's neck. Police had said Floyd resisted arrest, but Frey said "I saw nothing that would signal that this kind of force was necessary."

His death is being investigated by the FBI and the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.

Video of Floyd's death has sparked outrage, including from presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden, who tweeted about it on Tuesday and on Wednesday called it a "tragic reminder that this was not an isolated incident, but a part of an ingrained systemic cycle of injustice that still exists in this country.”

President Donald Trump also weighed in on Wednesday. "My heart goes out to George’s family and friends. Justice will be served!" he tweeted.

Bridgett Floyd, Floyd's sister, said on NBC's "TODAY" show Wednesday morning that she wants all of the officers at the scene to be charged with murder.

"They murdered my brother. He was crying for help," she said.

The Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, which represents the department's 800-plus rank-and file officers, asked the public not to rush to judgment before all video can be reviewed and a medical examiner's report is released.

On Tuesday, clashes broke out between police and some protesters in Minneapolis, and police deployed tear gas.

"We cannot have members of our community engaging in destructive or criminal types of behavior," said Arradondo, the Minneapolis police chief said.

He said the vast majority of people protesting have been doing so peacefully.

Arradondo said his officers showed restraint when there was property damage, but he ordered gas to be used once a fence was breached and after some people were in a parking facility "which had access to our Minneapolis squad cars and weapons."

He said there were around five people arrested Tuesday, not at the precinct where demonstrations were held but at an adjacent business across the street, and he said the arrests were burglary related.
Source

The violence continues to unfold and people are calling it a riot. It's depressing when a certain speech from 1968 remains as relevant now as it was then:
I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.

Now every year about this time, our newspapers and our televisions and people generally start talking about the long hot summer ahead. What always bothers me is that the long hot summer has always been preceded by a long cold winter. And the great problem is that the nation has not used its winters creatively enough to develop the program, to develop the kind of massive acts of concern that will bring about a solution to the problem. And so we must still face the fact that our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nations winters of delay. As long as justice is postponed we always stand on the verge of these darker nights of social disruption.
If this is a riot, then it is indeed the language of the unheard.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 01:36am

"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21324
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-28 01:53am

Yeah. While I am not happy to see political violence (or large gatherings period, given the ongoing pandemic), this is a predictable response to what amounts to the ongoing mass murder of a racial group by law enforcement, and failure by large portions of society to respond to it with the necessary urgency.

The discrepancy in how these rioters are being treated compared to the armed militia with assault rifles who stormed the Michigan State House (and, previously, repeatedly occupied Federal land while taking hostages) is disgusting, as well. And entirely predictable.

And there's honestly a part of me that's a bit relieved to see non-Trumpist protesters taking to the streets despite the pandemic. I've been worried for months that Trump could try to ignore or manipulate the election results, and push through God knows what, and the nation would just quietly accept it for the most part because of a second-wave induced lock down. So I'm glad to see that its not just the Right who are prepared to mobilize en mass if need be.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

Ralin
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3011
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Ralin » 2020-05-28 04:55am

President Donald Trump also weighed in on Wednesday. "My heart goes out to George’s family and friends. Justice will be served!" he tweeted.
Saw this in another article. He also said he'd be pushing the FBI to investigate as fast as possible (and thanked local law enforcement for their hard work, but in context that seemed more aimed at the ones dealing with the riots/in general).

It takes a pretty fucking egregious murder for goddamn Donald Trump to not be siding with the killer cops.

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Broomstick » 2020-05-28 07:16am

I'm wondering at the reluctance of the media to call a riot a riot. It was a riot, let's use the proper English word for it.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-05-28 01:53am
Yeah. While I am not happy to see political violence (or large gatherings period, given the ongoing pandemic), this is a predictable response to what amounts to the ongoing mass murder of a racial group by law enforcement, and failure by large portions of society to respond to it with the necessary urgency.

The discrepancy in how these rioters are being treated compared to the armed militia with assault rifles who stormed the Michigan State House (and, previously, repeatedly occupied Federal land while taking hostages) is disgusting, as well. And entirely predictable.
There is one particular difference here: The tiny-penised protestors toting guns in Lansing, Michigan, for all their bluster, did not actually engage in violence - no shooting, no punching, no property damage. LOTS of intimidation and yelling, but no actual physical violence.

When the folks in Minneapolis - whose cause, by the way, I fully support - started causing property damage is the moment when they gave the police the excuse they needed to engage in violent suppression.

Which is why civil rights leaders in the 1950's and 1960's were so firm on NON-violent protesting. Which can also be very costly to those participating.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-05-28 01:53am
And there's honestly a part of me that's a bit relieved to see non-Trumpist protesters taking to the streets despite the pandemic. I've been worried for months that Trump could try to ignore or manipulate the election results, and push through God knows what, and the nation would just quietly accept it for the most part because of a second-wave induced lock down. So I'm glad to see that its not just the Right who are prepared to mobilize en mass if need be.
You can tell they're non-Trumpists because of the significant number who were wearing masks while protesting in a group.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15535
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Gandalf » 2020-05-28 09:20am

A quick look around social media shows that angry white commentators and politicians are (almost like clockwork) throwing out the MLK nonviolence quotes, conveniently ignoring the complexity of his views on the subject.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 09:23am

Well, they do love MLK, so long as they can file off the bits about condemning the conditions that create riots with equal vigour to the riots themselves.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Broomstick » 2020-05-28 10:03am

I'll just add that I did not specify MLK. Hence my use of civil rights leaderS. The MLK mythos is the sanitized for white suburbia version of the real man who, as noted, was quite complex. But he was far from the only leader or only person calling for civil disobedience and non-violent protest.

I also think that the non-violent protesting would not have been as effective if it didn't have the violent protesters looming in the shadows, giving a far more unpleasant alternative to sit-ins and love-ins.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Highlord Laan
Jedi Master
Posts: 1252
Joined: 2009-11-08 02:36pm
Location: Christo-fundie Theofascist Dominion of Nebraskistan

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Highlord Laan » 2020-05-28 11:30am

Good. When it comes to the kind of scum that is the american police and the political bloc that protects and empowers them, the time for peace passed a long time ago.
Never underestimate the ingenuity and cruelty of the Irish.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15535
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Gandalf » 2020-05-28 05:53pm

loomer wrote:
2020-05-28 09:23am
Well, they do love MLK, so long as they can file off the bits about condemning the conditions that create riots with equal vigour to the riots themselves.
It's such a neat example of trying to weaponise history, and it comes up each time there's a protest like this, or on MLK day. The clear undertone is always "why aren't you people being like him? No, don't look at Malcolm X. Also, don't kneel during the anthem, people will cry."
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21324
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-28 10:04pm

Highlord Laan wrote:
2020-05-28 11:30am
Good. When it comes to the kind of scum that is the american police and the political bloc that protects and empowers them, the time for peace passed a long time ago.
Hmm, I seem to recall a number of posters recently rushing to self-righteously "call me out" for suggesting that you had a history of advocating political violence in the United States.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 10:11pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-05-28 10:04pm
Highlord Laan wrote:
2020-05-28 11:30am
Good. When it comes to the kind of scum that is the american police and the political bloc that protects and empowers them, the time for peace passed a long time ago.
Hmm, I seem to recall a number of posters recently rushing to self-righteously "call me out" for suggesting that you had a history of advocating political violence in the United States.
For a dude meant to be ignoring me, you do seem to be trying to pick a fight. I happily conceded my mistake in the matter, and it's weird of you to bring it into a different thread to try and take a shot when you are, again, apparently ignoring me.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 10:22pm

It's looking like the rage is continuing on, with the fire at the pawn shop having been relit. There have been at least 15 fires lit so far.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6737
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Zaune » 2020-05-28 10:31pm

Broomstick wrote:
2020-05-28 10:03am
I'll just add that I did not specify MLK. Hence my use of civil rights leaderS. The MLK mythos is the sanitized for white suburbia version of the real man who, as noted, was quite complex. But he was far from the only leader or only person calling for civil disobedience and non-violent protest.

I also think that the non-violent protesting would not have been as effective if it didn't have the violent protesters looming in the shadows, giving a far more unpleasant alternative to sit-ins and love-ins.
I've been saying that for at least ten years. Apparently we just had to wait for things to get worse before I stopped sounding like a dangerous nutter.

Being proven right does not make me feel even slightly better.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21324
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-28 10:36pm

Personally, I will not support initiating violence, because I believe being seen as the instigators is likely to cost vital support.

But I would urge every person in the United States who isn't a conservative Christian white man loyal to Trump to start arming quickly, and to take all steps within the limits of the law to prepare for the possibility of armed conflict, as a matter of self-defense.

I would also urge the Democratic Party to begin building its own armed, private security force, were I in a position to make such a suggestion to anyone with the power to implement it.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 10:41pm

Political parties constructing dedicated paramilitary wings? Gee, that always ends well.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15535
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Gandalf » 2020-05-28 10:46pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-05-28 10:36pm
I would also urge the Democratic Party to begin building its own armed, private security force, were I in a position to make such a suggestion to anyone with the power to implement it.
Uh, what?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 10:49pm

No, no, it's fine. I'm sure the party won't misuse it's dedicated armed paramilitary wing. That'd be something the other side would do, and we're the goodies!
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6737
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Zaune » 2020-05-28 10:51pm

loomer wrote:
2020-05-28 10:41pm
Political parties constructing dedicated paramilitary wings? Gee, that always ends well.
The only thing worse than both parties organising their own paramilitary militias is only one party organising them.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 10:56pm

Zaune wrote:
2020-05-28 10:51pm
loomer wrote:
2020-05-28 10:41pm
Political parties constructing dedicated paramilitary wings? Gee, that always ends well.
The only thing worse than both parties organising their own paramilitary militias is only one party organising them.
Broadly, I agree, but at that point you have to just accept that the democracy is dead for the time being and be prepared for some heavy duty political violence if you want to survive. You can't simultaneously arm a paramilitary wing of the party while affecting a 'oh but please, no violence' attitude.

When you hand your people guns, you are accepting that those guns will have to be used (otherwise, you wouldn't be arming your people). At that point the discourse must shift to a consideration of when and where the application of violence as force is acceptable, as you have accepted that power will no longer be sufficient and the existing public order is insufficient. The time for hand wringing over 'oh but I don't support political violence' is long over by the time you're arming people for the explicit purpose of political violence, even if it's 'just' self-defence.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21324
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-28 11:07pm

Simply because one endorses the need to prepare for the possibility of violence does not mean that one is obligated to condone any and all forms of violence. My purpose is to prepare for the possibility that we may have to defend ourselves, and hopefully to deter would-be attackers, not to condone initiating violence for political purposes. And my support for the former does not obligate me to condone the latter, your cheap attempt at a "gotcha" notwithstanding.
Zaune wrote:
2020-05-28 10:51pm
loomer wrote:
2020-05-28 10:41pm
Political parties constructing dedicated paramilitary wings? Gee, that always ends well.
The only thing worse than both parties organising their own paramilitary militias is only one party organising them.
This.

Trump is out there actively inciting the murder of Democrats. Republican militias are storming state houses wielding assault rifles, and a hell of a lot of the police and military are on their side. Did you know Congressional candidates and gubernatorial candidates don't even get Secret Service protection (if we can still trust the Secret Service)? Never mind local candidates?

I'm not talking about shooting random Republicans. I'm just talking about having the means to defend ourselves if need be. And frankly, I'd rather have trained, professional private security hired by the party do that, than untrained, undisciplined private militias which will be full of people with itchy trigger fingers looking to start a fight at the first opportunity.

I don't want violence. I really don't. Because it would be a horror like no one in this country has known. But I want even less to have no means of defending ourselves against the fascists, and I think we're at the point where the risks of not preparing (being helpless when they come to murder us) outweigh the risks (escalation, provocation, misuse) of preparing.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

User avatar
Highlord Laan
Jedi Master
Posts: 1252
Joined: 2009-11-08 02:36pm
Location: Christo-fundie Theofascist Dominion of Nebraskistan

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Highlord Laan » 2020-05-28 11:11pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-05-28 10:04pm
Highlord Laan wrote:
2020-05-28 11:30am
Good. When it comes to the kind of scum that is the american police and the political bloc that protects and empowers them, the time for peace passed a long time ago.
Hmm, I seem to recall a number of posters recently rushing to self-righteously "call me out" for suggesting that you had a history of advocating political violence in the United States.
You don't actually have anything more than a cursory familiarity with human history, do you? By the time fools like you decide something is worth fighting for, it's too late for everyone else. Not that people like you actually care, so long you're not impacted.

But go on thinking friendship really is magic or whatever else you picked up in you philosophy 101 class, you pampered fucking child.
Never underestimate the ingenuity and cruelty of the Irish.

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3961
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer » 2020-05-28 11:14pm

It's not a cheap attempt at a gotcha, as you'd understand if you'd spent literally any time studying the way political violence works rather than all that time spent on stretches to fit your own head so deeply up your ass. You might also have noticed that what you're invoking as an attempt at a 'gotcha' - that I've allegedly attempted to say that you must support 'initiating violence for political purposes' when all you want to do is 'defend yourself' - doesn't actually work.

When you establish an armed wing of a political party, you are explicitly preparing for political violence. Political violence in self-defence is still political violence and still a vote of no-confidence in the existing organs of state power and law enforcement apparatus. Establishing a paramilitary wing is in itself an act of political violence by signifying the willingness and capacity to employ violence on your political enemies.

No amount of handwringing 'oh but political violence is bad, we're not going to shoot random republicans, we're just going to defend ourselves' can change this.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6737
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Zaune » 2020-05-28 11:21pm

loomer wrote:
2020-05-28 10:56pm
Broadly, I agree, but at that point you have to just accept that the democracy is dead for the time being and be prepared for some heavy duty political violence if you want to survive. You can't simultaneously arm a paramilitary wing of the party while affecting a 'oh but please, no violence' attitude.

When you hand your people guns, you are accepting that those guns will have to be used (otherwise, you wouldn't be arming your people). At that point the discourse must shift to a consideration of when and where the application of violence as force is acceptable, as you have accepted that power will no longer be sufficient and the existing public order is insufficient. The time for hand wringing over 'oh but I don't support political violence' is long over by the time you're arming people for the explicit purpose of political violence, even if it's 'just' self-defence.
I accepted that quite some time ago. Not everyone is as jaded. Which is good, because otherwise there'll be nobody left to push back against political parties having armed paramilitary wings become the new normal.

I don't personally think the Democrats are going to get through this by purely defensive, reactionary use of armed resistance. I don't even think they'll be able to get away with refraining from deliberately targeting noncombatants. But I recognise the need for having people around who are willing to try.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21324
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-05-28 11:41pm

Highlord Laan wrote:
2020-05-28 11:11pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-05-28 10:04pm
Highlord Laan wrote:
2020-05-28 11:30am
Good. When it comes to the kind of scum that is the american police and the political bloc that protects and empowers them, the time for peace passed a long time ago.
Hmm, I seem to recall a number of posters recently rushing to self-righteously "call me out" for suggesting that you had a history of advocating political violence in the United States.
You don't actually have anything more than a cursory familiarity with human history, do you? By the time fools like you decide something is worth fighting for, it's too late for everyone else. Not that people like you actually care, so long you're not impacted.

But go on thinking friendship really is magic or whatever else you picked up in you philosophy 101 class, you pampered fucking child.
I know, at least, that this topic deserves more than your sad attempt at ad hominem to make yourself feel superior.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

Post Reply