Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by Zaune » 2019-12-12 07:04pm

Any idea when the vote count will end? Might as well have a truly definite answer before I have my next and potentially last major mental health crisis.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by SpottedKitty » 2019-12-12 07:17pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-12-12 04:17pm
Voted today. I've heard a few people had trouble with finding themselves on the register, even though they have registered to vote.
No problem here. Although I did need a second look at the voting card to notice my polling place is now the new community centre across the road, not the school round the corner. And I've never had to look at the register myself, the poll workers always do it when I hand in my voting card.

Hope there was a decent turnout — I've never needed to queue, but there's usually at least a few people there. No-one in the room when I was there today, apart from the poll workers, who seemed to be happy to have someone else to speak to.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by LaCroix » 2019-12-12 07:53pm

Trends so far say the turnout was just over 60, down by quite a bit from last election.

Also, there is a obvious trend that no matter of Brexit or Remain leaning, Laber lost votes, everywhere, and by quite substancial margins, close to 10% in average. No gains, anywhere, yet.

Of course, we are currently only seeing traditional Labor strongholds under attack, but I really doubt this will be significantly better in other areas. Even if they massively fought in marginal con seats, a general 10% downswing indicates it won't be enough. (Unless people migrated to other areas to vote there)

I don't think Corbyn will survive this.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by ray245 » 2019-12-12 08:14pm

LaCroix wrote:
2019-12-12 07:53pm
Trends so far say the turnout was just over 60, down by quite a bit from last election.

Also, there is a obvious trend that no matter of Brexit or Remain leaning, Laber lost votes, everywhere, and by quite substancial margins, close to 10% in average. No gains, anywhere, yet.

Of course, we are currently only seeing traditional Labor strongholds under attack, but I really doubt this will be significantly better in other areas. Even if they massively fought in marginal con seats, a general 10% downswing indicates it won't be enough. (Unless people migrated to other areas to vote there)

I don't think Corbyn will survive this.
The Brexit referendum was a sign Labour was in danger of losing seats due to the FPTP system. The more urban and metropolitan areas simply do not count for as many seats Labour needed to gain a majority of any kind.

Labour lost Scotland and they have lost a vast swats of the North, especially the areas hardest hit since Thatcher's days. They have been caught in a hard place because their traditional core supporters do want Brexit, even if those areas will continue to be hard-hit post-Brexit.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by LaCroix » 2019-12-12 08:49pm

30 results in, 4 seats won by the Tories - scales with the projected 50 seat win.

There is still a wildcard of about 70 seats being too close to call, but the crow is thoroughly chewed, it seems. Good night.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by Gandalf » 2019-12-12 09:10pm

Good times for Scottish independence I guess?
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by ray245 » 2019-12-12 09:57pm

Gandalf wrote:
2019-12-12 09:10pm
Good times for Scottish independence I guess?
Hadrian's wall can serve its purpose again. :lol:
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-12 10:04pm

So I gather the majority of the British people chose fascism, corruption, bigotry, and destroying their own country to spite brown people and foreigners.

Well, you reap what you sow. I only pity those who were not a part of this, who have my utmost sympathies. Honestly, I won't fault Scotland for seeking independence at this point. Hopefully they'll accept refugees from the rest of the UK.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by ray245 » 2019-12-12 11:11pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-12-12 10:04pm
So I gather the majority of the British people chose fascism, corruption, bigotry, and destroying their own country to spite brown people and foreigners.
First past the post system, which is not the same as an outright majority. We will only know about whether there is a majority that voted for the Tories once all the votes have been tallied up.

Some of the constituencies that were most devastated under Thatcher now voted for the Tories.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-12 11:17pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-12-12 11:11pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-12-12 10:04pm
So I gather the majority of the British people chose fascism, corruption, bigotry, and destroying their own country to spite brown people and foreigners.
First past the post system, which is not the same as an outright majority. We will only know about whether there is a majority that voted for the Tories once all the votes have been tallied up.
Fair enough.
Some of the constituencies that were most devastated under Thatcher now voted for the Tories.
There are few things sadder than seeing people choose to put on their own chains.

Here's an interesting take on what happens next:

https://globalnews.ca/news/6290901/brex ... -majority/
Now that a Tory majority government is projected for the U.K., the question becomes: what does a snap election in favour of Boris Johnson’s party mean for the future of Brexit?

Johnson ran on the promise that a Tory win would mean he would get parliament to ratify his deal for leaving the European Union, meaning Britain will leave the EU by Jan. 31.

Socialist Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn had campaigned to make a new deal with the EU within three months if Labour won. The deal would then go to a nationwide referendum in the next six months, essentially letting voters decide if they’d rather back a revised deal or choose to remain in the EU.

With Labour’s plans out of the picture, and despite Johnson’s ‘Get Brexit Done’ slogan, Darrell Bricker, president of Ipsos, said the path forward for Brexit is still not entirely clear.

“It’s not like Boris Johnson actually campaigned on a clear plan for Brexit,” he said Thursday evening, speaking with Global News from London, England.

“He’s now got the process of negotiating what this is all going to mean over the space of the next several months.”

Brexit was put to a vote in 2016, triggering three years of uncertainty over how the country would exit the 28-state EU, of which it had been a member for decades.

The British public likely doesn’t have a large appetite for more uncertainty, Bricker said.


“What’s clear is that whatever the logjams of parliament were previously, the public has spoken and they’re not going to have much tolerance for not moving ahead speedily, I would say,” he said.

What comes next is the “actual process of negotiating what the deal is going to be.”

“If anybody on the European side, for example, thinks that Mr. Johnson doesn’t have a strong hand, they would be wrong,” Bricker said.

“He does.”

Mel Cappe, a former Canadian high commissioner to the U.K., doesn’t have high hopes for Brexit, which he firmly says “won’t be done for a decade.”

A Tory majority essentially triggers negotiations in 2020 between the U.K. and the EU for a new trade deal, he said.

“[Johnson is] going to have from Jan. 31 to Dec. 31 — 11 months — to negotiate a new deal,” Cappe said.
READ MORE: Here's how Britain's election works

“That’s going to be total chaos and uncertainty,” he said. “And I would be shocked if they had a deal between now and then.”

Patrick Leblond, a professor at the University of Ottawa and an expert on international relations and economics, says a Tory majority means there likely won’t be a “Brexit reversal.”

“The issue is, and I don’t think it’s being settled, is whether it’s going to be a hard or soft Brexit,” he said.

A hard Brexit would be one in which Britain leaves the EU without a trade deal.

Sure, a majority win means the Conservative Party doesn’t need anyone else’s help, he said. But this snap election hasn’t exactly resolved the issue of the transition deal.

“There’s still a split as far as I can see within the Conservative Party between the hard and soft Brexiters,” Leblond said.

So while the election shows that a majority of British voters want to leave the EU, little else is clear.

“It certainly indicates that … at least there is large support for Brexit,” Leblond said. “And they think that the Conservatives are the best to deliver Brexit.

“But I don’t think there is an agreement on what kind of Brexit people want.”
So the majority of the public may just want it over and done, but of course it won't be that simple, because the Brexiters can't agree what kind of Brexit they want. So the uncertainty will drag on, regardless of the election result.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-12-12 11:27pm

I never thought I'd see the day when I'd actually be disappointed when the Labour party falls apart, but it means the Tories now have the majority they've been after, which means the clusterfuck known as Brexit is all but a certainty. As if the Brexit Bunch weren't a bunch of insufferable assholes beforehand, now they'll be even worse :banghead: . Farage is happy even if the Brexit he was after isn't going to happen, as none of his candidates are expected to win he doesn't have anything else to be happy about.

The SNP regaining ground lost last time round means that they can make a renewed push for independence and I honestly hope they get it, making the destruction of the country complete. As it happens I was actually born in Scotland so I would qualify for citizenship, nothing would please me more than watching the ship sink from across the border.

Yes, it's not getting Brexit done, it's getting it started.

Jo Swinson has lost her seat, so I've no idea what she'll do now. Corbyn has already admitted defeat, announcing that he will remain leader until a replacement can be found and when they do he'll revert to representing his original constituency.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-12-12 11:37pm

I tend to oppose secession on principle, both because of my contempt for nationalism in general and because I prefer working to reform a country rather than abandon it to create multiple weaker, more isolated nations.

But in this case, I'd have a hard time faulting the Scots if they chose to do it, because IIRC they stayed in Britain on the expectation that they would remain in the EU, and are now being dragged from it against their will by the Brexiters (who are also nationalist secessionists, of course).

So yeah. I think this is a rare case where I would grudgingly accept a secession as legitimate and justified, even though I don't much like the SNP or some of their tactics.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by Elfdart » 2019-12-12 11:47pm

LaCroix wrote:
2019-12-12 07:53pm
Trends so far say the turnout was just over 60, down by quite a bit from last election.

Also, there is a obvious trend that no matter of Brexit or Remain leaning, Laber lost votes, everywhere, and by quite substancial margins, close to 10% in average. No gains, anywhere, yet.

Of course, we are currently only seeing traditional Labor strongholds under attack, but I really doubt this will be significantly better in other areas. Even if they massively fought in marginal con seats, a general 10% downswing indicates it won't be enough. (Unless people migrated to other areas to vote there)

I don't think Corbyn will survive this.
He didn't. Nice guys finish last, as usual.
a depressing phenomenon of the last decade is how the cynical goblins that pal around with pedophiles, vampires and war criminals have smeared honest-to-god decent genuine people like Corbyn and Sanders as monsters
The smear job on Corbyn makes the Zinoviev Letter look like child's play. Think of how thorough the brainwashing of the British public must be to have Jeremy Corbyn, who has never said, written or done anything remotely anti-Semitic, slandered on an hourly basis as a Jew-hater while Boris Johnson, who wrote a book about how Da Joooooooz run the media doesn't catch any grief for it. What's really disgusting is how faux-lefty pols and papers joined the lynch mob with such glee. I mean if a fake left publication like The Guardian can slime Corbyn in such a deranged manner, who needs the Daily Mail?
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by Darth Yan » 2019-12-12 11:51pm

Corbyn has done some stupid ass shit but I doubt he's as anti semitic as Boris Johnson.

I still think those who thought Corbyn's time was done are going to be disappointed. Labour probably won't go back to being Neoliberal anytime soon.

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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-12-13 12:01am

Labour has faced the same claims of anti-Semitism as the Conservatives have of Islamophobia- disturbingly it mirrors the Arab-Israeli conflict.

IMO this will be as bad for the UK as Trump has been for the US, if not worse.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2019-12-13 12:55am

I can't stop thinking of all those school children in poor areas in the UK. Where the school teachers have to use their own salaries to buy equipment for the students, or the little boy who cried on fridays because he had to go home for the weekend, where there was no food and no heating, or the interviews of school children with gaunt faces and listless eyes from these places and not believing this was recorded in western europe.

This was their last chance to get a better future, to get some money to their impoverished areas. And now it will only accelerate towards the bottom. And never mind universal credit and how many people it will still murder. Yes i use that word, because they have done it before and will keep on doing it.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-12-13 02:41am

Yep, we didn't vote in the government we need, but the one we deserve.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by LaCroix » 2019-12-13 04:25am

And you know what - fuck Corbyn.

This is his fault. He has the leadership skills of a one-legged turtle spinning on the back of its shell. The shit he pulled in the power plays against his own party at the convention is right out of machavelli's playbook.

Everyone knew that Brexit was the big theme, but he had to be dragged, kicking and screming to declare the official policy of.. uuhm... we are against Brexit, unless we win the election, then we'll be pro Brexit, but will be allowing our members to campain against Brexit on the referendum about Brexit.

And on top, he, personally could have avoided the whole election by simply agreeing to a government of unity, but no, he would not stand behind a neutral compromise candidate, if he can't be prime minister, then fuck the country.

Now he's saying he 'wont lead the party into the next election' - great... I will not stay around for 5 more years, but I'll use more time to make sure Labour will get a replacement leader I agree with.

Fuck you - Labour lost 10 percent, nationwide, the worst showing since fuck knows when. Against a Johnson-led conservative party, who had a 10 yer streak of failing policies against them. The least one can do is accept the blame, and resign on the spot.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by Darth Yan » 2019-12-13 04:36am

LaCroix wrote:
2019-12-13 04:25am
And you know what - fuck Corbyn.

This is his fault. He has the leadership skills of a one-legged turtle spinning on the back of its shell. The shit he pulled in the power plays against his own party at the convention is right out of machavelli's playbook.

Everyone knew that Brexit was the big theme, but he had to be dragged, kicking and screming to declare the official policy of.. uuhm... we are against Brexit, unless we win the election, then we'll be pro Brexit, but will be allowing our members to campain against Brexit on the referendum about Brexit.

And on top, he, personally could have avoided the whole election by simply agreeing to a government of unity, but no, he would not stand behind a neutral compromise candidate, if he can't be prime minister, then fuck the country.

Now he's saying he 'wont lead the party into the next election' - great... I will not stay around for 5 more years, but I'll use more time to make sure Labour will get a replacement leader I agree with.

Fuck you - Labour lost 10 percent, nationwide, the worst showing since fuck knows when. Against a Johnson-led conservative party, who had a 10 yer streak of failing policies against them. The least one can do is accept the blame, and resign on the spot.
His economic policies and willingness to criticize Israel are fair points. A candidate with his policies but not his baggage would work. It’s a shame Boris and the conservatives are going to fuck things up though

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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2019-12-13 05:10am

LaCroix wrote:
2019-12-13 04:25am
And you know what - fuck Corbyn.

This is his fault. He has the leadership skills of a one-legged turtle spinning on the back of its shell. The shit he pulled in the power plays against his own party at the convention is right out of machavelli's playbook.

Everyone knew that Brexit was the big theme, but he had to be dragged, kicking and screming to declare the official policy of.. uuhm... we are against Brexit, unless we win the election, then we'll be pro Brexit, but will be allowing our members to campain against Brexit on the referendum about Brexit.

And on top, he, personally could have avoided the whole election by simply agreeing to a government of unity, but no, he would not stand behind a neutral compromise candidate, if he can't be prime minister, then fuck the country.

Now he's saying he 'wont lead the party into the next election' - great... I will not stay around for 5 more years, but I'll use more time to make sure Labour will get a replacement leader I agree with.

Fuck you - Labour lost 10 percent, nationwide, the worst showing since fuck knows when. Against a Johnson-led conservative party, who had a 10 yer streak of failing policies against them. The least one can do is accept the blame, and resign on the spot.
Wow.
Last edited by His Divine Shadow on 2019-12-13 05:16am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2019-12-13 05:15am

Darth Yan wrote:
2019-12-13 04:36am
His economic policies and willingness to criticize Israel are fair points. A candidate with his policies but not his baggage would work. It’s a shame Boris and the conservatives are going to fuck things up though
What baggage? You will have to look long and hard to find a person with less baggage than Corbyn.

And you will see any leftist politician replaces him will be bodied in exactly the same way. It has zero to do with the person and everything to do with the politics.

You want a politician who doesn't get treated like this? Give up on the idea of leftist policies.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by Starglider » 2019-12-13 05:36am

LaCroix wrote:
2019-12-13 04:25am
And on top, he, personally could have avoided the whole election by simply agreeing to a government of unity, but no, he would not stand behind a neutral compromise candidate, if he can't be prime minister, then fuck the country.
Or he could have comitted to executing Brexit, just a softer version than the Tory one. Where can the Labour remainers possibly go, except to the Liberal Democrats, and if enough went there then a lab/lib coalition would have been viable with the concession of a second referendum. Of course that couldn't happen because communism is inherently arrogant, 'the march of progress and weight of history is on our side', no need for compromise or co-operation, all he had to do is purge all internal opponents and be not-Tory and victory would be delivered unto him.

I am glad to see Jo Swinson taken out as she took the liberals completely off the rails in this campaign, and pretty much squandered the first major electoral opportunity since the financial crisis.

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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2019-12-13 05:47am

-Corbyn isn't remotely a communist but a social democrat

-Lib Dems would rather join the Tories and brexit than labour (unless it reverted to new labour, but then what's the point of labour existing)

-Corbyn compromised too much, with the remainers in labour, this is hindsight 20/20 though. Earlier on he was reviled by the media for being too brexit, but that apparently would have been better than were he went.
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by K. A. Pital » 2019-12-13 06:28am

Britain receiving the payback for imperial arrogance and centuries of imperialism, with Brexit as such possibly leading to a direct dismemberment of the UK.

Well, well. If people want to rule the waves, rule the waves they will. ;)
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Re: Brexit and not very united kingdom politics II

Post by Tribble » 2019-12-13 07:25am

Now that the UK is leaving under a leader who makes Cameron and May look like commies, I wonder how this will impact the remaining EU members? Will we end up seeing other far right governments following suit in the long term?
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