SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I just noticed SpringSharp can get weird. I loaded Olympia and despite her report coming out as 1.00 Composite when I generated it, upon loading it was at .99.

Yes, it has happened to me before as well. It applies to the older version. Something tells me that some kind of binary error is happening, i.e. errors in the way the numbers are stored in binary.

[Sea Skimmer]

How do the Nagato-class and Tosa-class fair as far as battleships go?

Nagato was a good design but held back by the persistence of incremental armoring. Still even for that she was better then anything else save a Colorado upon completion.

Tosa mostly abandon incremental armoring but was still not all that great, it could resist its own 16inch shells between 12-20,000 meters but would be in deep trouble against 18 inch combatants. In many ways she is more battlecruiser then battleship, and indeed Japan saw Tosa as only an interim design. The future battleship would have been no.13, though dispite what Conways and other books will try to tell you this design was NOT finalized and almost certainly would not have had 8 x 18in guns in wasteful twin turrets. Japan never settled on just exactly what the new ship was going to be but many studies are known. Since we have hindsight to work with... don't build Tosa. You'd end up needing to pile on three more inches of deck armor within five years.

Given a 1920 start I’d go and build K3 battlecruisers myself with 9 x 18in guns, 30 knot speed and good enough armor, including a 7in deck over magazines. Also maybe a lone L3 just to make people shit a brick at a vessel with belt and deck thicknesses superior to Yamato, though she is not so fast. I think nearly ever designs I see people working on at the moment is going to be screwed in the face of proper post Jutland battleship design under a 60,000 ton limit. You should all be thinking in terms of the enemy is gonna be a monster with nine 18in guns and at least seven inches of deck armor.

I should think so. Some battleship designs were actually overloaded even in original configuration, but went on to have long service lives: However, the usual effect of slightly overloading ships that large is that they just sit lower in the water than intended (the QEs were a good example of this). For larger ships that really were overstressed by real-world standards we can look at the Japanese heavy cruisers, a fact also reflected in springsharp (I can't get a Takao or post-refit Mogami any better than .90 or so in SS). While not quite comparable to BBs, it should still be noted that most still carried their loads without severe problems, not to mention proved to be formidable opponents.

Japanese cruisers from Yubari on will never work right because they used the internal armored belts as structural material. They also had some odd combinations of welded and riveted construction. Springsharp still doesn’t specifically account for either factor as far as I'm aware. I put in a request for a 'welded-rivited' slider years ago, but well, way easier said then done.

The only exception of course was the Mogamis as built, which were dangerously unstable and suffered popped hull welds and turrets jammed in train during firing trails; this was fixed by bulging and structural reinforcement, which still left them overstressed by other navies standards, though no worse than other Japanese cruisers which suffered no such problems.

That is not really true, after the second strengthening the Mogamis had some of the strongest cruiser hulls ever, and this was reflected in the colossal punishment several of them survived in combat. Mogami herself took seven 500lb and 1000lb bombs at Midway and still made home under her own power. The last pair of heavy cruisers Japan planned to build, the Ibuki class were near direct copies of the Mogamis design after the strengthening program as well, though in the end only one hull was built and eventually nearly completed as an aircraft carrier. It was a pretty awesome example really of how back in this simple era of steel and steam you could unfuck even the worst design errors, though it cost 1,000 tons added and 2 knots of lost speed.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Has anyone done a Springsharp file for say the N3/G3 line of warships? I have seen heard of the K series battleships, but attempts to emulate them in SpringSharp met with failure, or rather colossal sizes.

[Sea Skimmer]

I do have satisfactory versions of G3 and N3 for an older version of Springsharp somewhere, I'll look for them latter today. You had to lie to the program some on the location of the armoring but it did work out. My beloved L3 would be a world class pain the ass to do though, because of the upward sloping 13in thick deck. Anyway… one does know those ships would have worked out if built, unlike some of the abortions it’s been possible to create in the various installments of Springsharp. I don’t even know about the detail accuracy of the program anymore it’s been warped so far from Rick Robinsons original. Its current developer keeps adding features, but many of them seem to have no affect at all on weights when they blatantly should.

[Thanas]

After talking a bit with Skimmer (a huge thank you to him), here is the updated export version of the Bayern/Baden class.

Baden export version, Germany/China Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
28.161 t light; 29.768 t standard; 30.850 t normal; 31.715 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(593,83 ft / 590,55 ft) x 98,43 ft x (31,17 / 31,88 ft)
(181,00 m / 180,00 m) x 30,00 m x (9,50 / 9,72 m)

Armament:
8 - 16,00" / 406 mm 45,0 cal guns - 2.065,46lbs / 936,88kg shells, 90 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1922 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,92lbs / 49,41kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1922 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides amidships
2 - 3,50" / 88,9 mm 45,0 cal guns - 21,62lbs / 9,81kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
20 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,25lbs / 0,11kg shells, 3.000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 18.315 lbs / 8.307 kg
8 - 24,0" / 610 mm, 24,00 ft / 7,32 m torpedoes - 1,982 t each, 15,856 t total
In 2 sets of submerged side tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16,0" / 406 mm 300,00 ft / 91,44 m 16,00 ft / 4,88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 78% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3,00" / 76 mm 383,86 ft / 117,00 m 29,34 ft / 8,94 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16,0" / 406 mm 9,00" / 229 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 4,00" / 102 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 2,00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 6,40" / 163 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 3,00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3,00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 16,00" / 406 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 35.577 shp / 26.541 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.948 tons

Complement:
1.163 - 1.513

Cost:
£7,581 million / $30,325 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3.001 tons, 9,7%
- Guns: 2.986 tons, 9,7%
- Torpedoes: 16 tons, 0,1%
Armour: 12.625 tons, 40,9%
- Belts: 3.602 tons, 11,7%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.250 tons, 4,1%
- Armament: 2.879 tons, 9,3%
- Armour Deck: 4.555 tons, 14,8%
- Conning Tower: 339 tons, 1,1%
Machinery: 1.207 tons, 3,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.253 tons, 36,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.688 tons, 8,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0,2%
- Above deck: 75 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47.256 lbs / 21.435 Kg = 23,1 x 16,0 " / 406 mm shells or 8,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m
Roll period: 16,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,99
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,60

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,596 / 0,599
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 24,77 ft / 7,55 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Average freeboard: 20,64 ft / 6,29 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77,2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140,6%
Waterplane Area: 42.353 Square feet or 3.935 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 208 lbs/sq ft or 1.014 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,92
- Longitudinal: 1,97
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

75t for aircraft carried

Changes:
- all or nothing scheme
- continuous single deck armor
- Better seaboat qualities
- Armament now superfiring. Way better.
- better space for machinery, storage etc.
- way better survival qualities
- Belt armor higher, also size increase to 16 inch (Yamato thickness).
- secondary armament now quick-firing guns.
- 500nm more endurance

Disadvantages:
- Speed reduced to 21 knots
- Cruising speed now 12 knots.

Will most likely also design a battlecruiser/ fast battleship based on the hull.

[Ma Deuce]

Here is an idea for a 1,750-ton destroyer: Note the 20cm gun in the second weapon slot: That's an ASW howitzer, which is interchangeable with the main 11cm guns. Also had to add some misc. tonnage because Springsharp doesn't seem to account for the weight of depth charges, which are deployed from two stern racks and two Y-guns.

Code: Select all

HMMS Trandraka, Madagascar Destroyer laid down 1920

Displacement:
	1,671 t light; 1,750 t standard; 1,998 t normal; 2,195 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
	(352.79 ft / 342.85 ft) x 31.17 ft x (13.35 / 14.30 ft)
	(107.53 m / 104.50 m) x 9.50 m  x (4.07 / 4.36 m)

Armament:
      3 - 4.33" / 110 mm 50.0 cal guns - 40.79lbs / 18.50kg shells, 400 per gun
	  Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
	  3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
		1 raised mount - superfiring
      1 - 7.87" / 200 mm 10.0 cal gun - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 70 per gun
	  Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1920 Model
	  1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
		1 raised mount
      6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 3,000 per gun
	  Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
	  2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 313 lbs / 142 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      10 - 21.7" / 550 mm, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m torpedoes - 1.667 t each, 16.673 t total
	In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
      Main DC/AS Mortars
      2 - 330.69 lbs / 150.00 kg Depth Charges + 75 reloads - 11.368 t total
	in Depth charge throwers
      2nd DC/AS Mortars
      2 - 330.69 lbs / 150.00 kg Depth Charges + 75 reloads - 11.368 t total
	in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
   - Gun armour:	Face (max)	Other gunhouse (avg)	Barbette/hoist (max)
	Main:	0.98" / 25 mm	      -			      -

Machinery:
	Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, 
	Geared drive, 2 shafts, 42,000 shp / 31,332 Kw = 33.74 kts
	Range 4,000nm at 15.00 kts
	Bunker at max displacement = 445 tons

Complement:
	149 - 194

Cost:
	£0.537 million / $2.147 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
	Armament: 99 tons, 5.0 %
	   - Guns: 35 tons, 1.7 %
	   - Weapons: 65 tons, 3.2 %
	Armour: 7 tons, 0.4 %
	   - Armament: 7 tons, 0.4 %
	Machinery: 1,137 tons, 56.9 %
	Hull, fittings & equipment: 403 tons, 20.2 %
	Fuel, ammunition & stores: 327 tons, 16.4 %
	Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 1.2 %
	   - On freeboard deck: 24 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
	Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
	  397 lbs / 180 Kg = 9.8 x 4.3 " / 110 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
	Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
	Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
	Roll period: 11.2 seconds
	Steadiness	- As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
			- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
	Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.72

Hull form characteristics:
	Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
	  a normal bow and large transom stern
	Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.503
	Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
	'Natural speed' for length: 21.00 kts
	Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
	Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 84
	Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
	Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
	Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
				Fore end,	 Aft end
	   - Forecastle:	20.00 %,  17.22 ft / 5.25 m,  17.22 ft / 5.25 m
	   - Forward deck:	30.00 %,  17.22 ft / 5.25 m,  17.22 ft / 5.25 m
	   - Aft deck:	35.00 %,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m
	   - Quarter deck:	15.00 %,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m
	   - Average freeboard:		12.71 ft / 3.88 m
	Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
	Space	- Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.7 %
		- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89.4 %
	Waterplane Area: 7,336 Square feet or 682 Square metres
	Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
	Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 150 Kg/sq metre
	Hull strength (Relative):
		- Cross-sectional: 0.50
		- Longitudinal: 1.28
		- Overall: 0.55
	Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
	Cramped accommodation and workspace room
	Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Thanas]

My export Battlecruiser, based on the Ersatz Yorck class. As with all German battlecruisers, maybe the term fast Battleship is more appropriate.

Ersatz Yorck updated, Germany/China Fast Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
30.626 t light; 32.121 t standard; 33.707 t normal; 34.976 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(751,31 ft / 748,03 ft) x 99,74 ft x (28,54 / 29,39 ft)
(229,00 m / 228,00 m) x 30,40 m x (8,70 / 8,96 m)

Armament:
8 - 15,00" / 381 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1.701,89lbs / 771,96kg shells, 90 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1922 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,92lbs / 49,41kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1922 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides amidships
8 - 3,50" / 88,9 mm 45,0 cal guns - 21,62lbs / 9,81kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,25lbs / 0,11kg shells, 3.000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 15.100 lbs / 6.849 kg
8 - 24,0" / 610 mm, 24,00 ft / 7,32 m torpedoes - 1,982 t each, 15,856 t total
In 2 sets of submerged side tubes
8 - 0,0" / 0 mm, 24,00 ft / 7,32 m torpedoes - 0,000 t each, 0,000 t total
In 8 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 420,00 ft / 128,02 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 86% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3,00" / 76 mm 486,22 ft / 148,20 m 26,27 ft / 8,01 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 9,00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 4,00" / 102 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 3,50" / 89 mm Quarter deck: 3,50" / 89 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 16,00" / 406 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 92.905 shp / 69.307 Kw = 27,30 kts
Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.855 tons

Complement:
1.243 - 1.616

Cost:
£7,782 million / $31,127 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.532 tons, 7,5%
- Guns: 2.516 tons, 7,5%
- Torpedoes: 16 tons, 0,0%
Armour: 11.997 tons, 35,6%
- Belts: 4.145 tons, 12,3%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.418 tons, 4,2%
- Armament: 2.266 tons, 6,7%
- Armour Deck: 3.808 tons, 11,3%
- Conning Tower: 360 tons, 1,1%
Machinery: 3.151 tons, 9,3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.870 tons, 38,2%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.081 tons, 9,1%
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0,2%
- Above deck: 75 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
49.035 lbs / 22.242 Kg = 29,1 x 15,0 " / 381 mm shells or 8,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 5,8 ft / 1,8 m
Roll period: 17,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,25

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,554 / 0,558
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27,35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 24,77 ft / 7,55 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Average freeboard: 20,64 ft / 6,29 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162,4%
Waterplane Area: 52.263 Square feet or 4.855 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 938 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,19
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

75t for aircraft carried

I'll also design a pure speed version of it.

[Thanas]

And here is the speed version:

Ersatz Yorck updated, Germany/China Fast Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
30.860 t light; 32.204 t standard; 33.807 t normal; 35.089 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(790,68 ft / 787,40 ft) x 98,43 ft x (27,56 / 28,39 ft)
(241,00 m / 240,00 m) x 30,00 m x (8,40 / 8,65 m)

Armament:
8 - 13,78" / 350 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1.319,35lbs / 598,45kg shells, 90 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1922 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,92lbs / 49,41kg shells, 140 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1922 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides amidships
8 - 3,50" / 88,9 mm 45,0 cal guns - 21,62lbs / 9,81kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,25lbs / 0,11kg shells, 3.000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12.040 lbs / 5.461 kg
8 - 24,0" / 610 mm, 24,00 ft / 7,32 m torpedoes - 1,982 t each, 15,856 t total
In 2 sets of submerged side tubes
8 - 0,0" / 0 mm, 24,00 ft / 7,32 m torpedoes - 0,000 t each, 0,000 t total
In 8 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 505,00 ft / 153,92 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 99% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,40" / 61 mm 511,81 ft / 156,00 m 25,36 ft / 7,73 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 9,00" / 229 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 4,00" / 102 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 3,00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3,00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 15,00" / 381 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 149.455 shp / 111.493 Kw = 31,00 kts
Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.885 tons

Complement:
1.246 - 1.620

Cost:
£7,759 million / $31,038 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.074 tons, 6,1%
- Guns: 2.058 tons, 6,1%
- Torpedoes: 16 tons, 0,0%
Armour: 11.187 tons, 33,1%
- Belts: 3.845 tons, 11,4%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.153 tons, 3,4%
- Armament: 1.990 tons, 5,9%
- Armour Deck: 3.862 tons, 11,4%
- Conning Tower: 338 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 5.070 tons, 15,0%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.454 tons, 36,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.947 tons, 8,7%
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0,2%
- Above deck: 75 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41.528 lbs / 18.837 Kg = 31,7 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 6,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,00
Metacentric height 4,9 ft / 1,5 m
Roll period: 18,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,554 / 0,558
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28,06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 77
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 24,77 ft / 7,55 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Aft deck: 35,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m, 20,28 ft / 6,18 m
- Average freeboard: 20,64 ft / 6,29 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168,3%
Waterplane Area: 54.290 Square feet or 5.044 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 870 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,99
- Longitudinal: 1,00
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

75t for aircraft carried

Top speed increased to 31 knots, but less armour and 14inch guns instead of 15inch guns.

[Ma Deuce]

Hey Thanas, that speed version looks a lot like the one I churned out: Mine's a bit slower, but has better deck armor and more fuel, though underwater protection is less. However, the design is under 30,000 tons standard. Once again through, the underwater torpedo tubes are retained despite their questionable value.

Code: Select all

"Super Mackensen", Deutschland Export Battlecruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
	28,673 t light; 29,994 t standard; 31,936 t normal; 33,490 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
	(731.63 ft / 731.63 ft) x 99.74 ft x (27.95 / 29.02 ft)
	(223.00 m / 223.00 m) x 30.40 m  x (8.52 / 8.85 m)

Armament:
      8 - 13.78" / 350 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 90 per gun
	  Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1922 Model
	  3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
		1 raised mount - superfiring
	  1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck centre
		1 raised mount aft
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 160 per gun
	  Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1922 Model
	  12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
		12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 400 per gun
	  Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
	  8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.22lbs / 0.10kg shells, 3,000 per gun
	  Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
	  10 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
		10 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 11,961 lbs / 5,426 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      2 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 2.092 t each, 4.184 t total
	submerged bow & stern tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      2 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 2.092 t each, 4.184 t total
	submerged side tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:		Width (max)	Length (avg)		Height (avg)
	Main:	11.8" / 300 mm	449.48 ft / 137.00 m	15.42 ft / 4.70 m
	Ends:	Unarmoured
	  Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
		1.77" / 45 mm	449.48 ft / 137.00 m	25.62 ft / 7.81 m
	Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.74 ft / 24.00 m

   - Gun armour:	Face (max)	Other gunhouse (avg)	Barbette/hoist (max)
	Main:	12.6" / 320 mm	4.72" / 120 mm		11.4" / 290 mm
	2nd:	5.91" / 150 mm	      -			      -
	3rd:	1.97" / 50 mm	      -			      -
	4th:	0.98" / 25 mm	      -			      -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
	For and Aft decks: 5.51" / 140 mm
	Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
	Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, 
	Geared drive, 4 shafts, 125,000 shp / 93,250 Kw = 29.64 kts
	Range 7,800nm at 14.00 kts
	Bunker at max displacement = 3,496 tons

Complement:
	1,193 - 1,552

Cost:
	£7.227 million / $28.907 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
	Armament: 2,470 tons, 7.7 %
	   - Guns: 2,453 tons, 7.7 %
	   - Weapons: 17 tons, 0.1 %
	Armour: 11,239 tons, 35.2 %
	   - Belts: 3,532 tons, 11.1 %
	   - Torpedo bulkhead: 755 tons, 2.4 %
	   - Armament: 2,329 tons, 7.3 %
	   - Armour Deck: 4,324 tons, 13.5 %
	   - Conning Tower: 299 tons, 0.9 %
	Machinery: 4,240 tons, 13.3 %
	Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,649 tons, 33.3 %
	Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,263 tons, 10.2 %
	Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0.2 %
	   - On freeboard deck: 75 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
	Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
	  43,694 lbs / 19,819 Kg = 33.4 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
	Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
	Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
	Roll period: 17.1 seconds
	Steadiness	- As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
			- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
	Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
	Hull has a flush deck,
	  a normal bow and a cruiser stern
	Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.548 / 0.553
	Length to Beam Ratio: 7.34 : 1
	'Natural speed' for length: 27.05 kts
	Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
	Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
	Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -3.00 degrees
	Stern overhang: -5.97 ft / -1.82 m
	Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
				Fore end,	 Aft end
	   - Forecastle:	20.60 %,  27.89 ft / 8.50 m,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m
	   - Forward deck:	15.00 %,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  20.67 ft / 6.30 m
	   - Aft deck:	46.40 %,  20.67 ft / 6.30 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
	   - Quarter deck:	18.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
	   - Average freeboard:		21.31 ft / 6.50 m
	Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
	Space	- Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.7 %
		- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.0 %
	Waterplane Area: 50,830 Square feet or 4,722 Square metres
	Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
	Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 879 Kg/sq metre
	Hull strength (Relative):
		- Cross-sectional: 0.98
		- Longitudinal: 1.21
		- Overall: 1.00
	Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
	Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Misc. weight = 75 tons for aircraft installation

[Thanas]

You've got quite the un-german turret arrangement, though. Also, it is a worse seaboat and has only marginally better survivability (and sacrifices about 40% of torpedo protection).

It has the advantage of over 1800nm more range and lesser displacement, though.

[Ma Deuce]

You've got quite the un-german turret arrangement, though.

That is the actual arrangement of the Mackensen: Notice how on the Derrflinger-class onward there's a large space between the 3rd and 4th turrets of German battlecruisers, due to the engine rooms being placed between them: this technically makes turret #3 a midships turret, despite still being able to train aft.

Also, it is a worse seaboat and has only marginally better survivability (and sacrifices about 40% of torpedo protection).

It's less than ideal to be sure, but I had to sacrifice something to maintain close to 30 kts on less than 30,000 tons standard, especially with 5.5in of deck armor. I also felt the longer range was justified given the role of battlecruisers.

[Thanas]

Yes, those are legitimate design choices.

And you are mistaken about the Derfflinger class, if the drawings by Beyer are correct. Yesm there is more room, but it is hardly enough to make it a midships turret.

[Ma Deuce]

And you are mistaken about the Derfflinger class, if the drawings by Beyer are correct. Yesm there is more room, but it is hardly enough to make it a midships turret.

It is technically a midships turret if it's between the engines and the boilers, no matter if it can train aft or how far back it is on the hull. Note the diagram of Mackensen below: unless I'm grossly mistaken, the Tu symbol represents the turbine engine rooms, and the K represents the boiler rooms.

[Thanas]

Well, you are correct about that, but the drawing there differs from Beyer. You are correct about the turbines (even in Beyer's diagram they are).

But Beyer does not call it a midship turret, he calls them aft turrets. So I am pretty sure that in Springsharp, it is supposed to be an aft turret.

[Ma Deuce]

Well, you are correct about that, but the drawing there differs from Beyer. You are correct about the turbines (even in Beyer's diagram they are).

But Beyer does not call it a midship turret, he calls them aft turrets. So I am pretty sure that in Springsharp, it is supposed to be an aft turret.

I guess it's a hairsplitting distinction in the end: It really is functionally an aft turret even if technically a midships one. In any case, it makes no practical difference in Springsharp.

[Thanas]

Doesn't it? I thought it impacts weight economy and hull stability/strength.

[Sea Skimmer]

Springsharp used to have a setting specifically for this scenario in which you could specify the aft turrets were separated by the turbine rooms. A number of ships had this arrangement. If the version now in use doesn’t have that setting, then call it an aft turret.

Mind you though. That arrangement fucking sucks in real life as cool as it looks in pictures. Any time you place a turret inside of the machinery spaces you have to run massive steam piping through the magazines. That makes good temperature control impossible even with a refrigeration plant installed (which no one did at the time anyway) meaning that the propellants is hotter then all the other turrets propellant. The result if that turret shoots off target and plays hell with spotting the fall of shot.

Around 1918 small water tube boilers came into service, dramatically reducing the number of boilers required for any ship. That shrank machinery spaces considerably and removed any need for separating turrets with a turbine room. The design of USS Lexington for example was able to reduce from 24 to 16 boilers, eliminating the insane two story boiler rooms, while HMS Hood went from 42 to 24 (the RN had been especially conservative on boiler design thus the dramatic reduction)

[Sea Skimmer]

People looking for ideas for 16in battleships other then following British linage might want to look at these Japanese studies for the No.13 project. It is an annoying subject to research since basically only the UK and Japan extensively studied post Jutland designs prior to the WNT limits. The USN as bogged down with its preexisting South Dakota design which was good but also only a minor evolutionary step forward over a Colorado. Many of these designs have the exact same armor but different speeds and turret arrangements so they are a useful contrast

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/bk/NWS/Imperi ... mg092.html
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/bk/NWS/Imperi ... mg093.html

[Steve]

My first hand at a turn of the century cruiser. Here is CRS Astoria, an armored cruiser based somewhat on the historical British Warrior-class. but she's heavier. Probably because her main guns are bigger.

Astoria, Cascadian Armored Cruisern laid down 1903

Displacement:
12,957 t light; 13,578 t standard; 14,755 t normal; 15,696 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(498.00 ft / 480.00 ft) x 75.50 ft x (25.00 / 26.28 ft)
(151.79 m / 146.30 m) x 23.01 m x (7.62 / 8.01 m)

Armament:
6 - 10.00" / 254 mm 40.0 cal guns - 510.00lbs / 231.33kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1901 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 7.00" / 178 mm 45.0 cal guns - 172.96lbs / 78.45kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 40.0 cal guns - 3.83lbs / 1.74kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
8 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,829 lbs / 1,737 kg
10 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 16.42 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.667 t each, 6.670 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted reloads

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 412.00 ft / 125.58 m 10.36 ft / 3.16 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 68.00 ft / 20.73 m 10.36 ft / 3.16 m
Upper: 4.50" / 114 mm 412.00 ft / 125.58 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 132 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.50" / 191 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
2nd: 7.50" / 191 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1.00" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm Quarter deck: 0.50" / 13 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 33,910 ihp / 25,297 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,118 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
669 - 870

Cost:
£1.470 million / $5.880 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 924 tons, 6.3 %
- Guns: 918 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedoes: 7 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 3,191 tons, 21.6 %
- Belts: 1,729 tons, 11.7 %
- Armament: 853 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 479 tons, 3.2 %
- Conning Tower: 130 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 5,061 tons, 34.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,781 tons, 25.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,798 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,919 lbs / 4,046 Kg = 17.8 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.38
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.577
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.36 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -3.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.10 ft / 7.65 m, 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.34 ft / 4.68 m, 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 15.34 ft / 4.68 m, 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.34 ft / 4.68 m, 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
- Average freeboard: 16.12 ft / 4.91 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.4 %
Waterplane Area: 25,771 Square feet or 2,394 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 118 lbs/sq ft or 576 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Steve]

And now for the CRS Challenger very much based on the historical British Challenger-class 2nd Class Protected cruiser, but older.

Challenger, Cascadian Protected Cruiser, laid down 1899

Displacement:
4,945 t light; 5,166 t standard; 5,864 t normal; 6,423 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(360.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 54.00 ft x (20.00 / 21.49 ft)
(109.73 m / 106.68 m) x 16.46 m x (6.10 / 6.55 m)

Armament:
11 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1897 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides amidships
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
9 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1896 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides amidships
6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
3 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
6 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 3.00lbs / 1.36kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,226 lbs / 556 kg
2 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.576 t each, 1.152 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm - -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 3.00" / 76 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 3.00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3.00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,850 ihp / 11,078 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,257 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
334 - 435

Cost:
£0.607 million / $2.427 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 300 tons, 5.1 %
- Guns: 299 tons, 5.1 %
- Torpedoes: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 867 tons, 14.8 %
- Armament: 106 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 733 tons, 12.5 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,357 tons, 40.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,421 tons, 24.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 919 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,344 lbs / 1,517 Kg = 31.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.79
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 10.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 46 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.543 / 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 20.58 ft / 6.27 m, 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 13.10 ft / 3.99 m, 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.10 ft / 3.99 m, 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.10 ft / 3.99 m, 13.10 ft / 3.99 m
- Average freeboard: 13.70 ft / 4.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 146.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.5 %
Waterplane Area: 13,104 Square feet or 1,217 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 389 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.94
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Yes, it has no armor belt. Ships of this type didn't always have armor belts, just armored decks.

[Norseman]

Incidentally something like HMS Dreadnaught would be *utterly* obsolete by 1925, even if you assume a much faster upgrading of tonnage and guns I would *still* say that anything fifteen years old is obsolete and anything more than ten years old is... well... if not obsolete then not in good shape.

[K. A. Pital]

Incidentally something like HMS Dreadnaught would be *utterly* obsolete by 1925

"Obsolete" doesn't mean militarily useless. Even pre-dreadnaughts continued playing a role in WWII, either directly or having their artillery taken off-ship to be used as fortifications or assault guns, not to mention the post-Dreadnaught ships.

In the 1920s what you call the "utterly obsolete" ships (pre-dreadnaughts and first dreadnaughts) comprised a good share of folks' navies.

[DarthShady]

I think I'll settle for the historical ship designs, or perhaps purchasing some from you guys IC. Doing it myself would take way too much time.

[Steve]

Incidentally something like HMS Dreadnaught would be *utterly* obsolete by 1925

"Obsolete" doesn't mean militarily useless. Even pre-dreadnaughts continued playing a role in WWII, either directly or having their artillery taken off-ship to be used as fortifications or assault guns, not to mention the post-Dreadnaught ships.

In the 1920s what you call the "utterly obsolete" ships (pre-dreadnaughts and first dreadnaughts) comprised a good share of folks' navies.

Hrm? As I recall the pre-dreads still around were all scrapped in the 20s, as were the first dreadnoughts.

Now in WWI pre-dreads and turn-of-the-century cruisers still played parts. Dogger Bank, Coronel, Jutland, Falklands... And Gallipoli, IIRC.

[Thanas]

^Steve, pre-dreads may not be scrapped due to no WNT.

In other news, here is my beauty:

Ladies and Gentlemen, I unveil to you the pride of the German Navy, the Bismarck class.

Bismarck class, Germany Battleship laid down 1925

Displacement:
55.495 t light; 58.301 t standard; 60.995 t normal; 63.151 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(934,42 ft / 885,83 ft) x 124,67 ft x (39,37 / 40,40 ft)
(284,81 m / 270,00 m) x 38,00 m x (12,00 / 12,32 m)

Armament:
9 - 18,00" / 457 mm 45,0 cal guns - 2.940,86lbs / 1.333,95kg shells, 90 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 6,00" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,92lbs / 49,41kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
80 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,97lbs / 0,89kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
40 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
50 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,25lbs / 0,11kg shells, 15.000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
50 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 28.381 lbs / 12.873 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 18,0" / 457 mm 380,00 ft / 115,82 m 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 66% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3,00" / 76 mm 628,94 ft / 191,70 m 34,18 ft / 10,42 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18,0" / 457 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 15,0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 1,00" / 25 mm - -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 8,00" / 203 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 3,00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3,00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 20,00" / 508 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 89.796 shp / 66.988 Kw = 25,00 kts
Range 5.500nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.850 tons

Complement:
1.939 - 2.522

Cost:
£16,339 million / $65,358 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4.527 tons, 7,4%
Armour: 23.709 tons, 38,9%
- Belts: 5.791 tons, 9,5%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2.386 tons, 3,9%
- Armament: 4.942 tons, 8,1%
- Armour Deck: 9.921 tons, 16,3%
- Conning Tower: 668 tons, 1,1%
Machinery: 2.915 tons, 4,8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 24.268 tons, 39,8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.501 tons, 9,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0,1%
- Above deck: 75 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
109.162 lbs / 49.515 Kg = 37,4 x 18,0 " / 457 mm shells or 21,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
Metacentric height 8,8 ft / 2,7 m
Roll period: 17,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,52

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,491 / 0,495
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29,76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 40,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 16,00%, 34,45 ft / 10,50 m, 24,44 ft / 7,45 m
- Forward deck: 34,00%, 24,44 ft / 7,45 m, 25,92 ft / 7,90 m
- Aft deck: 37,00%, 25,92 ft / 7,90 m, 24,44 ft / 7,45 m
- Quarter deck: 13,00%, 24,44 ft / 7,45 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Average freeboard: 25,51 ft / 7,78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65,8%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180,5%
Waterplane Area: 72.985 Square feet or 6.781 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 248 lbs/sq ft or 1.211 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,95
- Longitudinal: 1,57
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

75t for three aircraft carried

Short facts:
- 18inch armor
- 8inch armored deck
- 9x18 inch guns
- excellent gun platform, excellent seaboat
- 25 knots maximum speed, 16 knots cruising speed (faster cruising speed than most Battlecruisers)
- great survivability. This ship can take a whopping 21-2 torpedoes and 37 18inch shells (alternatively: 72 16inch shells, 92 15inch shells, 125 14inch shells).