Trump/Republican Coup Thread

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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Majin Gojira »

wautd wrote: 2021-01-14 02:45am
The Infidel wrote: 2021-01-13 04:30pm Hang on... Does this mean that 186 representatives are OK with Trump behaving like he does??? What the actual fuck? What is WRONG with these people?
Tribalism?
That and threats -- both physical and to possible re-election in the future.

Mostly, they say, the former. To which AOC and other democrats have pointed out, in short: "Eh, welcome to my world!"
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Broomstick »

A couple of the Republicans who voted for impeachment are now purchasing body armor and traveling with armed bodyguards, citing death threats.

This just sucks all around. I many not like politicians, but I don't want to see them or their families hurt.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Khaat »

Broomstick wrote: 2021-01-14 07:36pm A couple of the Republicans who voted for impeachment are now purchasing body armor and traveling with armed bodyguards, citing death threats.

This just sucks all around. I many not like politicians, but I don't want to see them or their families hurt.
A) something-something-Old-Testament-about-reaping-and-sowing. Maybe endorse the truth, or at least the actual fucking facts? These terrorists the GOP has fostered and coddled have been making these threats (and acting on them) against *many other people for years now*.
B) As Gogo Tomago might say, "woman up!" Take you lumps, learn your lessons, and get better!
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by loomer »

Ralin wrote: 2021-01-14 04:24pm
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: 2021-01-14 04:10pm
bilateralrope wrote: 2021-01-14 03:28pm

Question is, has any president tried to pardon a state crime ?
They can't. The wording of the US Constitution specifically limits the Presidential pardon power to "Offenses against the United States". So not against one state, but all of them, ergo a Federal crime.
The United States is by definition made up of individual states. Whether it has been traditionally interpreted that way or not I don't think it's at all obvious based on the wording that the pardon power is limited to federal crimes.
Can you find even one SCOTUS case that interprets that clause in the way you're suggesting?
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Ralin wrote: 2021-01-14 03:12pm
Napoleon the Clown wrote: 2021-01-14 02:46pmAnd then the huge issue for Trump? He likely owes a shitload of money to people who won't try to sue him for it. They'll deal with unpaid debt in far, far more unpleasant ways.
Would take a pretty ballsy mobster to order a hit on an ex-president of the United States. And the Secret Service is by all accounts very good at their job, even factoring in that guarding Trump after he leaves office will be their punishment detail for the foreseeable future.
The Secret Service is very good at what they do... But even so, they've had some instances of failure on their watch. And mobsters aren't the ones who would try to bump him off. They'd probably settle with extensive, recurring property damage or intimidating people into backing out of business deals. Besides, mobsters likely are not the scariest group that might want Trump out of the picture.

What I really, truly would like to see is Trump spend the rest of his life in prison. Given that his parents both lived rather long lives, it is not impossible that even with his godawful diet and exercise habits he could live well into his 80s or longer. He would hate languishing in prison for 10+ years. Especially if people just slowly forgot about him. Or he thought they were.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Solauren »

Let's see, his 74 1/2 years old, and supposed to be in good physical health despite his diet.
And prison would force a diet change and exercise on him. Let's assume his health stays good.

Well, his father reached 93 years old, and his mother 88 years.
That means he could reach his 90s easily, and possibly older with top not medical care.

Yeah, if Trump was sentence to 20+ years in jail, he might actually live to serve the entire sentence out!

I can also imagine, if he were to go to jail, his dear wife would sue for divorce, and rapidly either become a star witness in any legal proceedings, as well as a nice tell-all book deal, or get whatever she wanted in the divorce in exchange for her silence.
(Which, might be compelled via legal order).

Imagine that, Trump goes from rich, womanizing, wealthy, and powerful, to POTUS, to a penniless, powerless, broken, pariah divorce dying in prison after 20 years of obscurity. Talk about a fall from grace!
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by loomer »

Is there a reason we're salivating at the thought of our enemies dying slowly in prison that isn't just the desire for revenge? Do we think it will achieve any meaningful rehabilitative, public safety, or deterrence goal?
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

I think at this point, it comes down to the primal desire to inflict consequences upon someone that has basically spent their entire life avoiding consequences of any time, and certainly believes they are above consequences ever applying to them.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Ralin »

loomer wrote: 2021-01-14 08:33pm Can you find even one SCOTUS case that interprets that clause in the way you're suggesting?
No, but it's not like anything about this administration has been normal.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Broomstick »

loomer wrote: 2021-01-14 08:33pm
Ralin wrote: 2021-01-14 04:24pm
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: 2021-01-14 04:10pm
They can't. The wording of the US Constitution specifically limits the Presidential pardon power to "Offenses against the United States". So not against one state, but all of them, ergo a Federal crime.
The United States is by definition made up of individual states. Whether it has been traditionally interpreted that way or not I don't think it's at all obvious based on the wording that the pardon power is limited to federal crimes.
Can you find even one SCOTUS case that interprets that clause in the way you're suggesting?
You can't, because that issue has never been in front of the SCotUS, at least not as regards presidential pardons.

As for State vs. Federal - major changes occurred in interpretation at the point of the Civil War. After that war the Federal government assumed a lot more power than before.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Broomstick »

Solauren wrote: 2021-01-14 10:19pm Let's see, his 74 1/2 years old, and supposed to be in good physical health despite his diet.
And prison would force a diet change and exercise on him. Let's assume his health stays good.
Um... well, be careful assuming those would be changes for the better. Prison food isn't great and it's easy to eat more calories than you need. For every iron-pumping felon with ripped abs you have several that are pudgy, overweight, and flabby. Depending on where Trump might be incarcerated, exercise options might be limited.

Prisoners tend to die earlier than their free cohorts. It's not a hard and fast rule, but prison life isn't usually conducive to longevity.
Solauren wrote: 2021-01-14 10:19pmWell, his father reached 93 years old, and his mother 88 years.
That means he could reach his 90s easily, and possibly older with top not medical care.

Yeah, if Trump was sentence to 20+ years in jail, he might actually live to serve the entire sentence out!
Yes, yes he might.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

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loomer wrote: 2021-01-14 10:47pm Is there a reason we're salivating at the thought of our enemies dying slowly in prison that isn't just the desire for revenge? Do we think it will achieve any meaningful rehabilitative, public safety, or deterrence goal?
I don't think Trump can be rehabilitated.

I do think that locking him away may serve the public interest by sharply curtailing his ability to harm others. I view this as the primary good of a long prison sentence for him and I would still insist on humane conditions because I want to be a better person than his crowd.

Deterrence? For some. But narcissistic megalomaniacs tend to think they're immune to consequences.

Ditto for some of the extremists that stormed the Capitol on January 6th - it's not that I think they can be rehabilitated, it's that I want to protect the rest of us from their violence.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

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loomer wrote: 2021-01-14 10:47pm Is there a reason we're salivating at the thought of our enemies dying slowly in prison that isn't just the desire for revenge? Do we think it will achieve any meaningful rehabilitative, public safety, or deterrence goal?
I think it will help the healing for the USA and a lot of its citizens if Trump is in prison. Also this is the man who just ordered the murder of a woman (via execution). Toss in the deaths of about 400,000 Americans, many of whom died due to his incompetence and pettiness, and it will be well-deserved and the least he should get. It could be a deterrent to some public officials who want to create their own fief at a state or national level, and certainly beneficial to public safety that he is not free.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by loomer »

Angeli is now calling for a pardon, as no doubt many of the other rebels will.



B5B7 wrote: 2021-01-15 07:20am
loomer wrote: 2021-01-14 10:47pm Is there a reason we're salivating at the thought of our enemies dying slowly in prison that isn't just the desire for revenge? Do we think it will achieve any meaningful rehabilitative, public safety, or deterrence goal?
I think it will help the healing for the USA and a lot of its citizens if Trump is in prison. Also this is the man who just ordered the murder of a woman (via execution). Toss in the deaths of about 400,000 Americans, many of whom died due to his incompetence and pettiness, and it will be well-deserved and the least he should get. It could be a deterrent to some public officials who want to create their own fief at a state or national level, and certainly beneficial to public safety that he is not free.
So, basically, you want revenge as justice for your first three points (the latter two of which he is not under impeachment or trial for - and which, accordingly, it would be inappropriate to use the justice system to punish him over), while the latter two I remain unconvinced by. The deterrence effect of imprisonment sucks pretty bad when we're talking national leaders (it's a perpetual trouble for IHL and IHRL for that exact reason), and in terms of public safety, his imprisonment will not remove the threat he poses without corresponding prevention of his free communication with and deradicalization of his followers. I'm not saying don't throw him in prison, exile him, or even shoot him, mind: I do, however, find the salivation about him suffering objectionable on moral and ethical grounds, and I'm not sure that his suffering brings any benefit to either deterrence or public safety.
Broomstick wrote: 2021-01-15 05:01am
loomer wrote: 2021-01-14 10:47pm Is there a reason we're salivating at the thought of our enemies dying slowly in prison that isn't just the desire for revenge? Do we think it will achieve any meaningful rehabilitative, public safety, or deterrence goal?
I don't think Trump can be rehabilitated.

I do think that locking him away may serve the public interest by sharply curtailing his ability to harm others. I view this as the primary good of a long prison sentence for him and I would still insist on humane conditions because I want to be a better person than his crowd.

Deterrence? For some. But narcissistic megalomaniacs tend to think they're immune to consequences.

Ditto for some of the extremists that stormed the Capitol on January 6th - it's not that I think they can be rehabilitated, it's that I want to protect the rest of us from their violence.
Given the above remarks touch on some similar territory to BSB57's I won't go into any but the last. In their case, imprisonment as a precautionary measure is definitely a legitimate goal, but the bigger goal (and unfortunately, challenge) I think in terms of pursuing public safety will be deradicalization. It's not going to be an easy one to handle since prisons have a hard enough time with the average radical as it is (that is, those who are the stereotype - the poor, disenfranchised, etc - who make up the bulk of radicalized extremists, but who definitively are not the bulk of the capitol invaders), and that's without the very real danger of deeper radicalization and martyr complexes emerging through the interaction of the rebels and open white supremacist organizations.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

The possibility of Trump ever serving a single second of a prison sentence are approximately 3,720 to 1.

But seriously. Only 10 out of 207 Republican congressmen voted to impeach. That's 5%. How much higher do you really expect the rate of defection to be in the Senate? Need it to be 34% (17/50) for conviction. That's not going to happen. I doubt it will get to even half that. Other federal charges are going to go the way of the Mueller report, where it's obvious Trump did something wrong but there isn't enough physical evidence to unequivocally charge him with a specific crime.

The state charges seem unlikely to amount to much more than fines or out of court settlements, because they won't be able to pin much on him other than maybe some tax cheats or other relatively innocuous (by Trump's standards) crimes. And despite everything he is still a wealthy white male who benefits from the massive inequities in our justice system. There may be some hollow victories like a court order that he can't serve on a board of directors for a business for X years, or some other such garbage that means nothing. Honestly, the best we can hope for at this point is public humiliation related to his brand being tarnished (but even then ... it's not like people haven't known Trump was a fraudulent piece of shit for the past 30 years, and it never stopped people from doing business with him).

I'd love to be wrong, but don't get your hopes up. A massive amount of the population still supports him without question. And most of the rest want to move on and forget about the past 4 years and don't have the patience for either retributive or restorative justice. The number of people who truly want to see him pay for his crimes is not only relatively small, but generally lacking in any particular power or influence to make that happen. The only people who are really in a position to direct events such that justice is served are all members of an elite class who have a vested interest in not setting a precedent that justice can be served against them.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

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loomer wrote: 2021-01-14 10:47pm Is there a reason we're salivating at the thought of our enemies dying slowly in prison that isn't just the desire for revenge? Do we think it will achieve any meaningful rehabilitative, public safety, or deterrence goal?
Partially, it's for the same reason that the name of man who killed John Lennon is never mentioned. To deny him what he wanted most.

Partially, it's to send a message.

For the term of his presidency, and for who knows how long before that, Trump has acted as if the law didn't apply to him.
That not only was he above it, that he in fact was the law.
He's encouraged some of the most vile behavour in people, and causes a resurgence in groups that promote that kind of behavior.

This has caused alot of people to lose hope.

By holding him fully accountable for everything it's been proven he's done or encouraged, you may restore hope to those people. You begin the process of cleaning up Trumps garbage, and show that no one is above the law. That people can be held for their actions. That wealth and power are only a delay.

Trump may not be the only symptom of the kind of corruption he represents, but someone of his stature, his profile, facing justice, that's a big step in starting on getting that corruption cleaned up.

Trump is not my enemy. (Hell, I'm Canadian. Trump is a bad joke up here).
Trump is, however, someone that has negatively impacted people I know, people I care about, and indeed, the entire world.

He deserves punishment, and I think the world needs to see that his crap is not, will not, and should not be tolerated.

And it needs to be done in such a way, that the people with the resources to try to do what Trump has done, at any level, stop and reconsider it, and hopefully decide to do something actually useful and productive for society and the world at large.

Will public safety, deterrence, or any improvements be immediately achieved by him facing justice? No.
But it's a damn good start.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

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loomer wrote: 2021-01-14 10:47pm Is there a reason we're salivating at the thought of our enemies dying slowly in prison that isn't just the desire for revenge? Do we think it will achieve any meaningful rehabilitative, public safety, or deterrence goal?
Consequences. Our system is broken, we can agree with that. But we've also see, in horror, what happens if it fails completely with no good alternative being worked on. If people don't face consequences for further breaking the State in such a way as to flirt with fascism and loot the State, then the next set who may or may not be smarter, will have an easier job of it.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by MKSheppard »

Broomstick wrote: 2021-01-15 05:01am I don't think Trump can be rehabilitated.
Why not? It happened with George W. Bush; despite, you know...
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Zaune »

MKSheppard wrote: 2021-01-15 12:40pmWhy not? It happened with George W. Bush; despite, you know...
Bush wasn't rehabilitated so much as made to look good by comparison to what came afterwards. Same with Romney.

But in any case, I don't know what justice for Trump would look like at this stage. Remember, this is the same guy who was suggesting we treat COVID-19 by mainlining disinfectant a few months ago; it is very probable that he's been suffering from dementia for most of his term in office, and that in the last twelve months it's progressed significantly.

How the hell is the Biden administration meant to give him a fair trial if he's no longer mentally fit to speak in his own defence?
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Solauren »

Him being declared mentally unfit to speak to his own defense would be an excellent result.

Because that would literally be telling the Trump-supporters that they've been support and enabling the ravings of a madman.

Heck, a decision like that would toss everything given during his presidency into question. A lack of mental fitness on his part, could actually invalidate alot of his decisions and actions, including possibly pardons he's given.

Wouldn't that be something?
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Broomstick »

loomer wrote: 2021-01-15 08:05am
Broomstick wrote: 2021-01-15 05:01am I don't think Trump can be rehabilitated.

I do think that locking him away may serve the public interest by sharply curtailing his ability to harm others. I view this as the primary good of a long prison sentence for him and I would still insist on humane conditions because I want to be a better person than his crowd.

Deterrence? For some. But narcissistic megalomaniacs tend to think they're immune to consequences.

Ditto for some of the extremists that stormed the Capitol on January 6th - it's not that I think they can be rehabilitated, it's that I want to protect the rest of us from their violence.
Given the above remarks touch on some similar territory to BSB57's I won't go into any but the last. In their case, imprisonment as a precautionary measure is definitely a legitimate goal, but the bigger goal (and unfortunately, challenge) I think in terms of pursuing public safety will be deradicalization.
I'm all for trying it, I just doubt that it would work on someone with decades of entrenched thought-patterns and a delusion that he is always right. If you can prove me wrong I'd be delighted.

Some of his followers might be more likely to be rehabilitated.

I have serious doubts about reforming the extreme White Rights crowd - once in awhile you find a reformed Nazi/White Supremacists but most live and die without changing. The attempt is worthy, but the primary goal needs to be protecting everyone else from people who not only have such beliefs but will ACT on those beliefs to the detriment of others and society as a whole. I underline that I'm talking about people who have ACTED to harm others, not merely because of beliefs or even words. I do not want an inquisition.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Solauren wrote: 2021-01-15 02:17pm Him being declared mentally unfit to speak to his own defense would be an excellent result.

Because that would literally be telling the Trump-supporters that they've been support and enabling the ravings of a madman.

Heck, a decision like that would toss everything given during his presidency into question. A lack of mental fitness on his part, could actually invalidate alot of his decisions and actions, including possibly pardons he's given.

Wouldn't that be something?
On the other hand, that would be confirming to America and the rest of the world that a literal madman managed to get elected as President. Not sure that'll help the public image issue.
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Ralin
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Ralin »

Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2021-01-15 06:47pmOn the other hand, that would be confirming to America and the rest of the world that a literal madman managed to get elected as President. Not sure that'll help the public image issue.
I don't think it could make things any worse
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Batman »

Indeed. Whether literally insane or not, Trump's election and especially his actions once in office and the fact that there were many americans who insisted he was actually doing a good job (not to mention the failed insurrection) shot any credibility America may have had left.
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Re: Trump/Republican Coup Thread

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

So peeps.... strolling through "memory lane" [and by which, I mean the old old archives of the Hall of Shame]
I cam across this thread viewtopic.php?f=12&t=83043 discussing the "cult like" actions of people who were supporting George W Bush... main point of interest was this...
Darth Wong wrote: 2006-01-01 03:59am Is there even a question about this? I thought it was obvious that all of the really hardcore Bush supporters are basically cultists. It's one thing to say that you miserably vote for Bush because you hate the Democrats even more (although I disagree with that too), but it's quite another to be one of these idiots who says with a perfectly straight face that George W. Bush has restored integrity to the White House. That requires a level of self-delusion that only a cult can generate.
Who could have guessed that Sixteen years later we would come across someone who make Bush look like a puppy when it came to self-delusion on a grand scale.
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