Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

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Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

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NPR
The amount the U.S. military spends annually on air conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan: $20.2 billion, according to a former Pentagon official.

That's more than NASA's budget. It's more than BP has paid so far for damage from the Gulf oil spill. It's what the G-8 has pledged to help foster new democracies in Egypt and Tunisia.

"When you consider the cost to deliver the fuel to some of the most isolated places in the world — escorting, command and control, medevac support — when you throw all that infrastructure in, we're talking over $20 billion," Steven Anderson tells weekends on All Things Considered guest host Rachel Martin. He's a retired brigadier general who served as chief logistician for Gen. David Petraeus in Iraq. He's now in the private sector, selling technologies branded as energy-efficient to the Defense Department.

Now it's important to note that wrapped up in Anderson's $20 billion figure are all kind of other expenditures – for instance, the cost of building and maintaining roads in Afghanistan, securing those roads, managing the security operations for those roads. That all costs a lot of money and is part of the overall war effort in Afghanistan.

The Pentagon rejects Anderson's estimate. Still his claims raise questions about how much the US footprint in Afghanistan really costs – especially something like air conditioning.

Why Does It Cost So Much?

To power an air conditioner at a remote outpost in landlocked Afghanistan, a gallon of fuel has to be shipped into Karachi, Pakistan, then driven 800 miles over 18 days to Afghanistan on roads that are sometimes little more than "improved goat trails," Anderson says. "And you've got risks that are associated with moving the fuel almost every mile of the way."

Anderson calculates that more than 1,000 troops have died in fuel convoys, which remain prime targets for attack. Freestanding tents equipped with air conditioners in 125-degree heat require a lot of fuel. By making those structures more efficient, Anderson says, the military could save lives and dollars.

Still, his $20.2 billion figure raises stark questions about the ongoing war in Afghanistan. In the wake of President Obama's announcement this past week that 33,000 American troops will soon return home, how much money does the U.S. stand to save?

Dollars And Cents

The 33,000 troops who will return home by the end of next year match the numbers sent to Afghanistan in 2010, at a cost of about $30 billion. That comes out to about $1 million a soldier.

But the savings of withdrawing those troops won't equal out, experts say.

"What history has told us is that you don't see a proportional decrease in spending based on the number of troops when you draw them down," says Chris Hellman, a senior research analyst at the National Priorities Project.

"In Afghanistan that's going to be particularly true because it's a very difficult and austere environment in which to operate," he says.

That means most war expenditures lie not in the troops themselves but in the infrastructure that supports them — infrastructure that in some cases will remain in place long after troops are gone.

"We're building big bases," American University professor Gordon Adams says, describing the money invested as, in economic terms, "sunk" costs.

"We're seeing this in Iraq. We're turning over to the Iraqis — mostly either for a small penny or for free — the infrastructure that we built in Iraq. But we won't see back any money from that infrastructure."

Then there's the costly task of training Afghan security forces. The Obama administration has requested almost $13 billion to train and equip Afghan security forces in the next fiscal year.

And more importantly, Hellman says, "[Afghan President Hamid] Karzai indicated a couple years back that [Afghanistan] wasn't going to be a position to support their own military forces 15, 20 years out. I suspect we're going to be called on to pay a substantial part of that bill going forward."

Criticism From The President's Own Party

For critics of the president, the idea that the troop drawdown won't save much money is reason enough to suggest it should be bigger.

One outspoken critic is Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV). He notes the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have cost hundreds of billions of dollars so far, and he argues a larger troop drawdown isn't a national security risk.

"We have the greatest special ops in the world. We have more technology than any other country on Earth," Manchin says. "Do we actually need to have 70,000 troops on the ground?"

"When you have this many people in a country that doesn't want you there — that has no economy, no infrastructure and a corrupt government — and you're trying to stabilize it and build them into a viable nation? I'm not sure we have enough time, and I definitely know we don't have enough money," Manchin says.

But others argue war should be waged independent of cost.

"The realm of war and peace exists separately apart — and justifiably so — from the economic realm," says Lawrence Kaplan, a visiting professor at the U.S. Army War College. He contends that critics like Manchin are looking for "economic answers to a non-economic question."

"And anyway, it's not the war that's broken Washington's piggy bank," he adds, noting that Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security account for far more spending than the $107 billion the Pentagon says it will spend in Afghanistan next year.

"Remember, we're talking about 30,000 troops," he says "I don't think that hundred-billion-dollar price tag should be the determining one."

Can Greener Mean Safer?

But for Anderson, the retired brigadier general, economics does have a role to play in modern warfare.

Anderson advocates for increased energy efficiency for military structures to cut down on the need for long, dangerous fuel-transport missions. A few months ago, he says he heard from a company commander in Afghanistan.

"He literally has to stop his combat operations for two days every two weeks so he can go back and get his fuel. And when he's gone, the enemy knows he's gone, and they go right back to where they were before. He has to start his counterinsurgency operations right back at square one."

Anderson says experiments with spraying polyurethane foam insulation on tents in Iraq cut energy use by 92 percent and took 11,000 fuel trucks off the road. But he adds there's a lack of enthusiasm for a greener military among top commanders.

"People look at it and say, 'It's not my lane. We don't need to tie the operational commanders' hands.' — things like this," he says.

"A simple policy signed by the secretary of defense — a one- or two-page memo, saying we will no longer build anything other than energy-efficient structures in Iraq and Afghanistan — would have a profound impact."

CLARIFICATION: The Pentagon disputes the calculation made by Anderson about air conditioning costs. Defense Department spokesman Dave Lapan says that in fiscal year 2010, the Pentagon spent approximately $15 billion on energy for all military operations around the world. The Pentagon says when it comes to Afghanistan, it spent $1.5 billion from October 2010 to May 2011 on fuel. That fuel was used for heating and air conditioning systems, but also for aircraft, unmanned aerial systems, combat vehicles, computers and electricity inside military structures.

After this story aired and appeared on NPR.org, Lapan told NPR: "For our warfighters, the cost of fuel isn't the only price. They include the associated costs of moving and protecting fuel in combat. These costs aren't only in dollars — they can be measured in reduced mission effectiveness and in lives lost moving and protecting fuel around the battlefield. The volume of fuel US forces consume raises our risks and hampers our capabilities. Reducing the demand for energy can mean better range and endurance for our deployed forces."
and a related article

U.S. Army aims for more energy-efficient base camps
The U.S. Army has opened a System Integration Laboratory (SIL) at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, modeled after forward operating bases in Iraq and Afghanistan to test technologies aimed at creating more energy-efficient base camps. The various energy-efficient technologies being tested are expected to reduce base camp fuel requirements by 20 percent or more and water demand by up to 75 percent.

The 10-acre SIL will be broken into two side-by-side sections, each occupied by 150 active-component and reserve component soldiers for periods of a few weeks or months at a time. One section acting as a control group will shadow standard expeditionary bases, while the second will act as a test group, carrying out almost identical operations as the first, but while integrating new technologies to allow for the collection of real-time data.

Technologies being examined include energy-efficient shelters and water-filtration and reuse systems, while planning is also underway to look at alternative energy sources including wind and solar power. As data is collected, information from the components and systems of each group will be compared to measure the effectiveness of the various technologies.

Officials say that once the effectiveness of the technologies is proven, the SIL will share them with currently deployed and future expeditionary forces so they can be implemented.

"The Army is focused on five goals," says Katherine Hammack, assistant secretary of the Army for Installations, Energy and Environment, "reducing energy consumption, increasing energy efficiency across platforms and facilities, increasing our use of renewable and alternative energy; assuring access to sufficient energy supplies today and in the future, and reducing adverse impacts on the environment. The SIL will give us the data we need to deploy solutions in a cost-effective manner."

While parts of the project have been running since the SIL opened on June 24, 2011, it isn't expected to be fully operational until August 1, 2011.

"We're seeing promising results from the micro-grid already," said Lt. Col. Daryl Harger, product manager, Force Sustainment Systems. "We're excited about the technology, but we also want to take a structured approach and make sure the results we get are valuable and true."
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Zixinus »

Is it only the US troops that use air condition or do other Western troops?
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Ayrix »

Now it's important to note that wrapped up in Anderson's $20 billion figure are all kind of other expenditures – for instance, the cost of building and maintaining roads in Afghanistan, securing those roads, managing the security operations for those roads. That all costs a lot of money and is part of the overall war effort in Afghanistan.
So its only "ZOMG 20b on air conditioning!" if you leave out all the infrastructure building, maintenance and the troops/equipment used to protect said infrastructure.

Also
Freestanding tents equipped with air conditioners in 125-degree heat require a lot of fuel.
125 degree heat with no air conditioning is a fucked up situation, especially if you were in combat fatigues/gear. Doesn't exactly seem wasteful when you could theoretically bake cookies by leaving them outside.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by SVPD »

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where he separated the electricty budget for air conditioning from the electricity budget for everything else. I'm sure it's got to be a significant fraction of the electricity used, but generators power lights, computers, etc. as well as AC. I'm sure more energy-efficient tents and such could save enormous sums, but I'm a bit suspicious of the claim that $20.2 billion is the cost just for air conditioning.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Flagg »

Ayrix wrote:
Freestanding tents equipped with air conditioners in 125-degree heat require a lot of fuel.
125 degree heat with no air conditioning is a fucked up situation, especially if you were in combat fatigues/gear. Doesn't exactly seem wasteful when you could theoretically bake cookies by leaving them outside.
This. See, if we weren't spending fucktons on AC for our troops then people would be bitching and moaning about how we're letting our troops bake in the desert.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Chris OFarrell »

Would have been better building a railroad in from somewhere from day 1 to maintain the logistical support.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by madd0ct0r »

The wife's suggestion is that from now on the US only invades temperate regions.

Still, it's nice to know the R&D budget of the army is being turned to off-grid renewables.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Sea Skimmer »

While the cumulative cost of air conditioning are blatantly not that high, 20% of the war cost.. yeah right, they still easily could be several billion. Especially since so much air conditioning is based on small wall unit type ACs, rather then more elaborate but more efficient central air conditioning plants. Also most of the buildings constructed have crap insulation and crap everything because they were built to temporary standards intended for no more then 5-10 year use. You’ve also got all those thousands of vehicles and aircraft running ACs.

Back in WW2 the US Army in Iran couldn’t get anything like enough air conditioners for its needs, including keeping medical supplies cool like blood plasma heading for Russia, so we ended up paying thousands of local laborers to construct semi buried warehouse buildings using wind towers and dripping water to cool the incoming air as has been done in the Mid East for thousands of years. Excellent resourcefulness of our engineering corps; similar structures would make a lot of sense for bases in Afghanistan-Iraq as they also improve physical protection but of course, they’d cost more UP FRONT when the army asks for base building money, big no-no, and you run into drainage problems if you try to build them on a base that already exists. Some patrol bases do have semi sunken stuff.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by weemadando »

Doing some building management as part of my job, the costs of getting A/C repairs from contractors in central Melbourne is FUCKING EXPENSIVE.

I have to imagine that maintenance costs for some of those units, plus the costs for security for the trained contractors and all that flow on would be prohibitively expensive.

*edit* Not to mention the lifecycle on them would be massively diminished due to the 24 load that most of them would be carrying (as opposed to part day loads) and the fact that you'd be swapping filters out on any of them in "rough field" kind of locations every few weeks rather than annually or even less often.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Korto »

SVPD wrote:Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where he separated the electricty budget for air conditioning from the electricity budget for everything else. I'm sure it's got to be a significant fraction of the electricity used, but generators power lights, computers, etc. as well as AC. I'm sure more energy-efficient tents and such could save enormous sums, but I'm a bit suspicious of the claim that $20.2 billion is the cost just for air conditioning.
Yeah, well it seems obvious he's playing fast and loose for his own benefit.
He's a retired brigadier general who served as chief logistician for Gen. David Petraeus in Iraq. He's now in the private sector, selling technologies branded as energy-efficient to the Defense Department.
CLARIFICATION: The Pentagon disputes the calculation made by Anderson about air conditioning costs. Defense Department spokesman Dave Lapan says that in fiscal year 2010, the Pentagon spent approximately $15 billion on energy for all military operations around the world. The Pentagon says when it comes to Afghanistan, it spent $1.5 billion from October 2010 to May 2011 on fuel. That fuel was used for heating and air conditioning systems, but also for aircraft, unmanned aerial systems, combat vehicles, computers and electricity inside military structures.
Which isn't to say a bit of insulation on the tents wouldn't be a good idea, because it almost certainly would. Less fuel needed leads to less deliveries leads to less lives and vehicles lost.

As for building a railroad, I'm no military man but that would seem to me to be just one great big long "Kick Me" sign, without other questions about how long it would take, and what to do when bases relocate.

Someone seems to miss Rumsfeld
One outspoken critic is Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV). He notes the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have cost hundreds of billions of dollars so far, and he argues a larger troop drawdown isn't a national security risk.

"We have the greatest special ops in the world. We have more technology than any other country on Earth," Manchin says. "Do we actually need to have 70,000 troops on the ground?"
I'm actually curious about the Special Ops claim. It's undeniable the US has the most powerful military in the world (some insurgency expert only a couple of years ago here said the US military was more powerful than every other military in the world put together, and therefore any force taking on the US in conventional warfare would, by definition, lose), I also believe the US has the best, largest, military in the world (some may be larger, but rubbish, others may be better, but tiny). However, there are a good number of countries, including Australia, with very good Special forces. What's the consensus opinion about the best Special forces in the world, if there is one?
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Stofsk »

Australia's special forces are geared up and trained for a few select, special missions - I think it's long term reconnaissance, the type where you go behind enemy lines, dig yourself a hole and stay there for ages while reporting on stuff you see (I read a book about the SAS and its experiences in East Timor, Afghanistan and Iraq, and the nature of their missions were said to be of the sort described above). Meanwhile US special forces are a completely different beast. There are a lot of different squads or teams or whatever, you have counter-terrorism from Delta Force and you have the Green Berets, the Rangers, Marine Recon and so on. They have different missions, different gear, and so on. Skimmer would probably shed more light on this.

As an aside, I think there was some noise being made recently by the Aus SAS about wanting to get more missions and permission from Canberra to join up with their American and British counterparts. Apparently there is a perception that Australia is like everyone's 'little brother'. Everyone loves the Aus SAS but we don't get asked to do much beyond what we're capable of because I think the political will isn't there to send them into the thick of it, and our allies know this. I think the book I read ('The Amazing SAS' by Ian MacPhedran) alluded to this when SAS troopers in Iraq used a Stinger I think? Some kind of anti-tank missile that's man-portable. We didn't have those back then, so the SAS didn't train to use them. Fortunately they were very simple to use but they also cost a bundle per shot, which is one of those things that make you realise our forces aren't the best they could be simply because the top shelf gear costs a bundle.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by weemadando »

Stofsk wrote:Australia's special forces are geared up and trained for a few select, special missions - I think it's long term reconnaissance, the type where you go behind enemy lines, dig yourself a hole and stay there for ages while reporting on stuff you see (I read a book about the SAS and its experiences in East Timor, Afghanistan and Iraq, and the nature of their missions were said to be of the sort described above). Meanwhile US special forces are a completely different beast. There are a lot of different squads or teams or whatever, you have counter-terrorism from Delta Force and you have the Green Berets, the Rangers, Marine Recon and so on. They have different missions, different gear, and so on. Skimmer would probably shed more light on this.

As an aside, I think there was some noise being made recently by the Aus SAS about wanting to get more missions and permission from Canberra to join up with their American and British counterparts. Apparently there is a perception that Australia is like everyone's 'little brother'. Everyone loves the Aus SAS but we don't get asked to do much beyond what we're capable of because I think the political will isn't there to send them into the thick of it, and our allies know this. I think the book I read ('The Amazing SAS' by Ian MacPhedran) alluded to this when SAS troopers in Iraq used a Stinger I think? Some kind of anti-tank missile that's man-portable. We didn't have those back then, so the SAS didn't train to use them. Fortunately they were very simple to use but they also cost a bundle per shot, which is one of those things that make you realise our forces aren't the best they could be simply because the top shelf gear costs a bundle.
In more recent issues, there's also the case where certain factions of the military actively and aggressively pursued charges against some SF Reservists for civilian (including multiple children) casualties in a firefight. This is more of an issue because of the way it was handled, which has actively set sections of the military against each other and is apparently causing active service sorts to start avoiding counselling and psych services because records from these sessions were used by the prosecution against them.

It's undermined morale for certain, but also highlighted that there's not really any political will to support troops who are engaged in combat ops.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Stofsk »

Yeah. At least that case was dropped by the Judge Advocate, but I have to wonder why they were even charged at all.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Korto wrote: As for building a railroad, I'm no military man but that would seem to me to be just one great big long "Kick Me" sign, without other questions about how long it would take, and what to do when bases relocate.
It would normally be a big kick me sign... except all truck traffic from Pakistan has to go over just two two lane highways anyway! The US already pays thousands of local mercenaries to guard those two roads. Within Pakistan a fair bit of traffic already does move by rail to to forward depots at which point everything goes onto trucks. Even once you get into Afghanistan, very few places are connected by more then one paved road even city to city, and almost no hard to replace if destroyed major bridges or tunnels would be required to add some limited rail links into the country The British already drew up surveyed plans for rail lines to Kandahar and Kabul a century ago; for a while they even kept all the supplies to build the line to Kandahar stockpiled so they could start work the moment the Russian's invaded. Rather amusing chapter of history, and the reason why Afghanistan has almost no rail track. Everyone deliberately avoided building it because it would make a war over Afghanistan harder to fight... good plan that was.

Keep in mind about 40 miles of track is currently being built in the north to connect an existing mile long spur into the country the USSR built to Mazar-i-Sharif. But work on that only began in late 2009 as a mainly civilian oriented project. So its not like this is an impossible task. Its just larger scale work in the south only would have made economic sense for military supplies if the US always PLANNED on fighting for 10+ years and thus several billion dollars of railroad track would actually be able to save money long term. They'd be a bitch to guard, but on the other hand being railroads rather then roads civilians DO NOT have a right to use them, so you can string up barbed wire and then just kill anyone on the track at anything but a designated crossing point.

I'm actually curious about the Special Ops claim. It's undeniable the US has the most powerful military in the world (some insurgency expert only a couple of years ago here said the US military was more powerful than every other military in the world put together, and therefore any force taking on the US in conventional warfare would, by definition, lose), I also believe the US has the best, largest, military in the world (some may be larger, but rubbish, others may be better, but tiny). However, there are a good number of countries, including Australia, with very good Special forces. What's the consensus opinion about the best Special forces in the world, if there is one?
For all up organization it has to be the US, because we just have way more special forces then anyone else, and way more custom equipment to back them up with much of which is simply not matched in any way by other nations like AC-130 gunships. But man for man... who knows. That's going to depend on specific teams at specific times and no special forces group is optimal for all possible missions. Its been pretty well proven that anybody on earth with a competent military can train at least a small group of top notch special forces for specific missions who will be equal to anyone else on earth that day, but sustaining this quality is not so easy. Anyway as is being pointed out above me, special forces are more about reconnaissance, both observing the enemy and working with local populations. That makes mission specific training vital, you can't talk to the locals if you don't speak the language and understand the customs. As you can imagine, quantifying who is 'best' at this is impossible since success in one area may not translate at all to another. Anyone can train commandos to merely kill people and blow stuff up, that part is easy, it just takes simple suicidal courage, good small arms and reliable detonators.

From what I've read, man for man the hardest enemy the US has ever fought were North Korean special forces soldiers in the 1960s troubles. Every one of them was an officer and they trained for four solid years, not counting military training as part of regular schooling from middle school onward, before being allowed to conduct even the most simple of missions.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

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weemadando wrote:Doing some building management as part of my job, the costs of getting A/C repairs from contractors in central Melbourne is FUCKING EXPENSIVE.

I have to imagine that maintenance costs for some of those units, plus the costs for security for the trained contractors and all that flow on would be prohibitively expensive.

*edit* Not to mention the lifecycle on them would be massively diminished due to the 24 load that most of them would be carrying (as opposed to part day loads) and the fact that you'd be swapping filters out on any of them in "rough field" kind of locations every few weeks rather than annually or even less often.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Winston Blake »

Stofsk wrote: I think the book I read ('The Amazing SAS' by Ian MacPhedran) alluded to this when SAS troopers in Iraq used a Stinger I think? Some kind of anti-tank missile that's man-portable. We didn't have those back then, so the SAS didn't train to use them. Fortunately they were very simple to use but they also cost a bundle per shot, which is one of those things that make you realise our forces aren't the best they could be simply because the top shelf gear costs a bundle.
You may be recalling this incident. SAS trooper uses a Javelin in combat without ever having fired a live one - only simulated training. If the book mentioned the word 'Stinger' it was probably in reference to the similar FPA imaging-type guidance of the Javelin - effective but expensive.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Stofsk »

I can't remember what the missile was called. I thought it was a Stinger but now that you mention it, Javelin sounds right.

sorry i'm not up on my military :P
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

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The considerable majority of anti tank missile gunners never fire a live missile; that’s just normal. With a fire and forget missile like Javelin it really shouldn’t matter compared to the problems of aiming an earlier wire guided one you have to guide for 30 seconds or more to maximum range and which are very sensitive to the wires breaking from moving the sight too quickly. The biggest issue in ATGM training is probably just training people not to blow up friendly stuff at long range.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

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From what I've read, man for man the hardest enemy the US has ever fought were North Korean special forces soldiers in the 1960s troubles. Every one of them was an officer and they trained for four solid years, not counting military training as part of regular schooling from middle school onward, before being allowed to conduct even the most simple of missions.
Do the Norks still retain that sort of quality?
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Sea Skimmer »

hongi wrote:Do the Norks still retain that sort of quality?
It’s unlikely the current elite infiltration units have the same degree of motivation; the 1960s sabotage-assassination-ambush was related to ROK troops being in Vietnam which drove the North more insane then usual, but they almost certainly continue to train them that hard. Infiltration activity remains considerable, but only with one or two people at a time as secret agents, rather then whole squads and platoons of commandos.
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Zaune »

Winston Blake wrote:You may be recalling this incident. SAS trooper uses a Javelin in combat without ever having fired a live one - only simulated training. If the book mentioned the word 'Stinger' it was probably in reference to the similar FPA imaging-type guidance of the Javelin - effective but expensive.
There was also a similar incident in the Falklands, recounted in this book, involving Argentine attack aircraft and the then-new Stinger, with which the user really hadn't had any training; as far as I recall it, they weren't officially in British service at the time but the SAS had a few in the armoury for evaluation, and they brought them along because they were more use than Blowpipe.
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Sea Skimmer
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Sea Skimmer »

The US supplied Stingers after the outbreak of war, as well as a few other items and satellite photos. The things are kind of simple when used without IFF, like anti tank missiles the real training is in identifying targets. insert battery, unfold sight and then its just IIRC two buttons, one to uncage the seeker and the other to fire when locked on. You can even be deaf and use the thing because the US Army thought about that (people being deafened by explosions) and included a transducer that rattles your face when it has lock on tone.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

Sea Skimmer wrote:The US supplied Stingers after the outbreak of war, as well as a few other items and satellite photos. The things are kind of simple when used without IFF, like anti tank missiles the real training is in identifying targets. insert battery, unfold sight and then its just IIRC two buttons, one to uncage the seeker and the other to fire when locked on. You can even be deaf and use the thing because the US Army thought about that (people being deafened by explosions) and included a transducer that rattles your face when it has lock on tone.
The early Stinger models also required superelevation when firing the missile or otherwise it was likely to miss. Needless to say, they Soviet Iglas did not; they were truly "point and shoot". :mrgreen:
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

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Sadly every SA-7 fired ever missed?
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Re: Among The Costs Of War: Billions A Year In A.C.?

Post by Sarevok »

JointStrikeFighter wrote:Sadly every SA-7 fired ever missed?
Where did you read that ?
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
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