Enforce gun bans by house to house searches?

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Post by Glocksman »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Durandal wrote:But the breathalyzer constitutes a search, since it illuminates properties which are not plainly observable (the subject's blood-alcohol level), so you can refuse unless the officer has probable cause.
And that doesnt strike you as utterly fucking retarded?
You can't refuse the test, at least here.
What happens when a person refuses a chemical test?
They are immediately charged with a DUI and with refusing. A refusal results in two charges and your license being suspended up to one year.
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Post by weemadando »

On the topic of breathtests - the US legislation is utterly backwards and retarded, especially with regards to fucking "sobriety" test bullshit.

However - why the hell did my major point get completely ignored. Why the fuck do people think that the moment guns are banned they're suddenly going to have a fucking guns "krystallnacht" happening? The Australian method seemed to work just fine and with the minimal amount of pissing off gun owners (as much as that was possible).
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Post by Glocksman »

weemadando wrote:On the topic of breathtests - the US legislation is utterly backwards and retarded, especially with regards to fucking "sobriety" test bullshit.

However - why the hell did my major point get completely ignored. Why the fuck do people think that the moment guns are banned they're suddenly going to have a fucking guns "krystallnacht" happening? The Australian method seemed to work just fine and with the minimal amount of pissing off gun owners (as much as that was possible).
Probably because the point of this thread isn't about guns per se, but the blatantly unconstitutional means the would-be Reichsfuhrer proposed to enforce his ban.
From my second post:
Just to make it clear, my outrage isn't about guns and gun bans, it's about wholesale violations of the search and seizure provisions in the bill of rights.
Substitute 'illegal drugs' for 'guns', and I'd feel the exact same way.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

How is it backward. Operation of a motor vehicle in of itself constitutes legal consent to a test of sobriety for any reason at any time. First of all, generalizing on the topic of laws describing the operation and regulation of motor vehicles is typically a red herring when discussing the U.S. as a whole, and probably overgeneralizing, since the States retain those legal powers. Anywho, driving in the State of Florida is not a right, but a conditional privilege based on the driver possessing the burden of proof to the state that he or she is not in fact in excess of the legal blood concentration of intoxicants as required to meet the needs of public safety.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

weemadando wrote:On the topic of breathtests - the US legislation is utterly backwards and retarded, especially with regards to fucking "sobriety" test bullshit.

However - why the hell did my major point get completely ignored. Why the fuck do people think that the moment guns are banned they're suddenly going to have a fucking guns "krystallnacht" happening? The Australian method seemed to work just fine and with the minimal amount of pissing off gun owners (as much as that was possible).
No one said it WOULD happen that I understand it; the raison d'etre of the thread is discuss the clown quoted in the OP who said it SHOULD happen.
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Post by Durandal »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Durandal wrote:But the breathalyzer constitutes a search, since it illuminates properties which are not plainly observable (the subject's blood-alcohol level), so you can refuse unless the officer has probable cause.
And that doesnt strike you as utterly fucking retarded?
No. It's the exact same reason why you can't be strip-searched on a police officer's whim. The whole point of a search is to uncover things you can't observe. If the residents of a state don't like it, they can ask for an implied consent law.
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Post by ArmorPierce »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:In a word. Yes.
How very authoritarian of you.
Perhaps I just harbour illusions of a competent aparatus of the state that you can have some measure of faith in...

If you cannot trust the government that you have elected then perhaps you should take a long hard look at the electorate that chose them?
Well when shit like this is happening http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 48f93bc6a1 blind faith in authority figures is obviously a bad thing.
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Post by Surlethe »

weemadando wrote:However - why the hell did my major point get completely ignored. Why the fuck do people think that the moment guns are banned they're suddenly going to have a fucking guns "krystallnacht" happening? The Australian method seemed to work just fine and with the minimal amount of pissing off gun owners (as much as that was possible).
Did you miss when I pointed out that your point wasn't particularly relevant to the discussion at hand? People aren't talking about a fucking krystallnacht in the case of a general gun ban; they're rather outraged at the retarded suggestions in the OP's essay. The Australian method would be a huge improvement over what that genius proposed.
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Post by Coyote »

Keevan_Colton wrote:You know what is really really funny...folk throwing around terms in latin without knowing what the fuck they mean. Here's a clue, stop and search and warrantless searches have absolutely fuck all to do with habeus corpus. The clue is in the phrase if you want to go look it up...
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Post by Civil War Man »

Just an observation from reading this thread. The arguments being made by both sides are similar to one of the hypothetical scenarios brought up when debating the death penalty. Namely the one going "would you be willing to let 20 guilty people go in order to spare the life of one innocent?" or, conversely "would you let 20 innocents burn in order to get at one guilty person?"
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

The constitutionality of this aside, this is a pretty good way to get a lot of officers killed, probably more so than the War on Drugs, that's more than enough to oppose it.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Durandal wrote:But the breathalyzer constitutes a search, since it illuminates properties which are not plainly observable (the subject's blood-alcohol level), so you can refuse unless the officer has probable cause.
And that doesnt strike you as utterly fucking retarded?
Not in the fucking least. If someone is actually drunk off his ass, then the sobriety test will more than establish probable cause for a search. What the fuck gives you the delusion that the police should be able to search anyone at any time anywhere for any or no reason whatsoever?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Civil War Man wrote:Just an observation from reading this thread. The arguments being made by both sides are similar to one of the hypothetical scenarios brought up when debating the death penalty. Namely the one going "would you be willing to let 20 guilty people go in order to spare the life of one innocent?" or, conversely "would you let 20 innocents burn in order to get at one guilty person?"
Except it isnt life and death, it's fucking inconvenience...
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Post by Dooey Jo »

Durandal wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
Durandal wrote:But the breathalyzer constitutes a search, since it illuminates properties which are not plainly observable (the subject's blood-alcohol level), so you can refuse unless the officer has probable cause.
And that doesnt strike you as utterly fucking retarded?
No. It's the exact same reason why you can't be strip-searched on a police officer's whim. The whole point of a search is to uncover things you can't observe.
Wait, so this is why the officers on Cops and the likes always make people walk on lines and shit? Because they actually can't do a breath test first? I thought they were just making fun of them. WTF! That is ridiculous in the extreme. And you can't pass a law that makes this legal because of the holy constitution, which was written two million years ago and did not take in account such things as breath tests for there were no breath tests then, and in fact no drunk driving either because there weren't even any fucking cars (and horses have really good cruise control). Jesus Christ... American law and politics...
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Post by Bounty »

Jesus Christ... American law and politics...
Amen to that. Over here, you can be subjected to a breath test even if you so much as walk towards a car with the intent of driving it. Refusal to take the test is an automatic DUI, with a fine and a six-hour driving ban.

I like personal freedom as much as the next guy, but you whacky Americans sometimes really fail at having a modicum of perspective.
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Post by Glocksman »

Bounty wrote:
Jesus Christ... American law and politics...
Amen to that. Over here, you can be subjected to a breath test even if you so much as walk towards a car with the intent of driving it. Refusal to take the test is an automatic DUI, with a fine and a six-hour driving ban.

I like personal freedom as much as the next guy, but you whacky Americans sometimes really fail at having a modicum of perspective.
I take it that some people didn't read my posts about sobriety checkpoints and DUI breathalyzer testing being legal.
I'll repost them.
Glocksman wrote:There are no Federal police patrolling the highways, so traffic enforcement is left to the states.
Indiana permits them., but some other states don't.

Quote:
Aren’t sobriety checkpoints illegal?
No, they are legal. In 1990, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of sobriety checkpoints in Michigan vs. Sitz. The court decided that the interest in reducing the incidences of impaired driving was sufficient to justify the brief intrusion of a properly conducted sobriety checkpoint. If conducted properly, sobriety checkpoints do not constitute illegal search and seizure in most states. Thirty-nine states, plus the District of Columbia, can legally conduct sobriety checkpoints.

I thought sobriety checkpoints were illegal in Indiana.
The Indiana Supreme Court ruled that sobriety checkpoints do not violate Indiana’s Constitution when implemented pursuant to a properly approved, minimally intrusive, neutral plan with standardized instructions and explicit guidance for officers to protect against inconsistent enforcement and a narrow objective.
What happens when a person refuses a chemical test?
They are immediately charged with a DUI and with refusing. A refusal results in two charges and your license being suspended up to one year.
AFAIK, every state in the union has provisions to require you to take a test though the penalties for refusing so differ from state to state.
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Post by Glocksman »

General Schatten wrote:The constitutionality of this aside, this is a pretty good way to get a lot of officers killed, probably more so than the War on Drugs, that's more than enough to oppose it.
There would be mass disobedience here, so I can just imagine how well random warrantless gun sweeps would go over in West Virginia.
My only concern is would you have enough body bags for all of the 'special police' that'd be blown away? :lol:
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Glocksman wrote:
General Schatten wrote:The constitutionality of this aside, this is a pretty good way to get a lot of officers killed, probably more so than the War on Drugs, that's more than enough to oppose it.
There would be mass disobedience here, so I can just imagine how well random warrantless gun sweeps would go over in West Virginia.
My only concern is would you have enough body bags for all of the 'special police' that'd be blown away? :lol:
Most of the people I know keep a gun and some ammo for just such an ocassion as someone busting into their house unwanted, and from what I hear Texans are almost (clearly we are the uberednecks) West Virginians but with a nationalistic pride in their state.

Any officer who didn't refuse to do these unwarranted searches would have to be touched in the head to do so in a state like WV or Texas. Then there's the fact that this is what the 'South Will Rise Again' people were expecting and it'd just make the pro-gun lobbyists who run on the Rogue Government scenario go hog wild.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Ghetto Edit: The answer to your question on the body bags is a big 'No', unless you're talking about the most inner parts of Charleston, since almost everyone and their grandmother has a gun, this would include the police officers, who know trying to do things forcefully can get you shot and most of which are also "Good 'Ol Boys' themselves.
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Post by Glocksman »

Wait, so this is why the officers on Cops and the likes always make people walk on lines and shit? Because they actually can't do a breath test first?
They do that in order to establish probable cause for the test.
The implied consent laws do not permit you to refuse the test once the officer has determined that probable cause exists.

This quote from an Indiana court decision may help illuminate what probable cause is:
A law enforcement officer has probable cause to offer a chemical test where the officer has knowledge of facts and circumstances that would lead a reasonably prudent person to believe that the crime of operating a vehicle while intoxicated has been committed. Gibson v. State, 518 N.E.2d 1132, 1136 (Ind. Ct. App. 1988), trans. denied. The evidence shows that Dalton had crashed his car, then fled the scene. He smelled of alcohol and had bloodshot eyes, and slurred speech. Dalton only fumbled with some items in his pocket and dropped them when asked for identification. He failed three field sobriety tests and a portable breath test. Dalton's clothing was soiled and in disarray, and he had an abusive attitude toward Hainje. The fact that Dalton smelled strongly of alcohol, alone, provided sufficient probable cause to at least offer Dalton a chemical test. See State v. Johnson, 503 N.E.2d 431, 432 (Ind. Ct. App. 1987), trans. denied. Based on these facts, we find there was sufficient probable cause for Hainje to offer Dalton a test to determine whether he was intoxicated.
Hainje administered a breathalyzer test because Dalton did not want to go to the hospital for a chemical test. Even though Dalton's ACE was only .06%, this did not eliminate probable cause that he was operating his vehicle under the influence of a controlled substance. While the .06% test result indicated that Dalton was not intoxicated with alcohol, Hainje, a trained drug recognition expert, believed that Dalton might be under the influence of some other drug. Hainje did not believe the .06% ACE result was consistent with his observations of Dalton's condition and behavior. Because Dalton was abusive and refused to cooperate, Hainje was unable to carry out a drug recognition examination. Hainje then offered Dalton the additional chemical test to which Dalton refused.
Probable cause requires only the probability of criminal activity had occurred. Jellison v. State, 656 N.E.2d 532, 534 (Ind. Ct. App. 1995). The facts set out above that gave Hainje probable cause to believe that Dalton was driving while intoxicated remain significant even after the breathalyzer test. Even though Dalton was not intoxicated on alcohol, there was still other circumstantial evidence to warrant a reasonably prudent person to believe that Dalton was operating his vehicle while under the influence of some type of a controlled substance.
Dalton argues that because he tested negative on the vertical gaze nystagmus test, the possibility of drug use was eliminated. As Hainje testified, however, a result from this test only does not completely eliminate the presence of all types of drugs. Probable cause is determined on the basis of the totality of circumstances. Sebastian v. State, 726 N.E.2d 827, 830 (Ind. Ct. App. 2000), trans. denied. The totality of the circumstances herein, even after the breathalyzer results, provided sufficient evidence that Dalton may have operated his vehicle while under the influence of some type of a controlled substance; thus, because Hainje had probable cause to offer the second test, Dalton's refusal to submit to that test constituted a violation of the Implied Consent law.
Dalton gives three other arguments to justify his refusal of the offered chemical test. First, Dalton contends that the test is invalid because Hainje did not allow him to contact his attorney before deciding whether or not to submit to the test. However, a person who drives on Indiana's roads has no right to consult with an attorney prior to deciding whether or not to submit to a chemical test administered under the Implied Consent law, and the lack of such consultation does not affect the person's refusal of the offered test. Zakhi v. State, 560 N.E.2d 683, 686 (Ind. Ct. App. 1990).
Second, Dalton argues that Hainje misled him as to the number of tests he was required to take. Dalton testified that Hainje promised him he would be free to leave if the breath test turned out favorably. Hainje testified that he made no such promise to Dalton. It is not for the appellate court to judge the credibility of the witnesses, and this court considers only the evidence favorable to the trial court's judgment. Timmons, 723 N.E.2d at 922. Dalton is essentially asking us to reassess the credibility of the witnesses. This we will not do.
Finally, Dalton asserts that the offered blood or urine test was an illusory request because Hainje could not lawfully administer these tests. It is true that the offer of a chemical test would have been invalid if Hainje had proposed that he administer the test. See Steward v. State, 638 N.E.2d 1292 (Ind. Ct. App. 1994). However, Hainje offered to transport Dalton to a hospital where appropriate personnel would have conducted the test. Thus, the offer was valid. The trial court did not err in denying Dalton's petition for reinstatement of his driver's license.
From what I gathered looking into this, the portable breathalzyer machine tests have been proven inaccurate when testing 'non-average' persons to serve as direct evidence, so some states only allow them to be used to establish probable cause.
In other words, if a cop pulls you over for suspicion of DUI and you refuse the portable breath test, he can still force you to take a chemical test if other circumstances give him the probable cause to do so.
Generally if he's pulled you over, it's because you're operating the vehicle so erratically, a 'reasonable officer' would conclude that you were DUI and just be justified in mandating the implied consent chemical test.

And you can't pass a law that makes this legal because of the holy constitution,
Sure we can, it's called a constitutional amendment.
Perhaps you don't understand, but the constitution is our basic law, and as such, other laws must conform with it.
Maybe we haven't amended it because our police have no problem busting drunk drivers without the Stasi-like powers of random search a lot of foreign police forces have.
If the 4th amendment was a substantial bar to agressive DUI enforcement, groups like Mothers Aagainst Drunk Driving would be in the forefront of demanding it be changed.
Instead all you hear from them on that subject is the sound of chirping crickets.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

General Schatten wrote:Texans are almost (clearly we are the uberednecks) West Virginians but with a nationalistic pride in their state.
Holy fucking shit do they ever. I literally can't take a shit without seeing at least two items with the shape of Texas either on them or formed into. These people are very nationalistic with their state, and everyone and their dog has a gun and knows how to use it (I can't really complain though, I'd be a hypocrite to do so, plus it's not really anything to complain about: range trips are fun).
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Glocksman wrote:There would be mass disobedience here, so I can just imagine how well random warrantless gun sweeps would go over in West Virginia.
My only concern is would you have enough body bags for all of the 'special police' that'd be blown away? :lol:
I'm completely against what's in the OP too, as warrantless sweeps of any stripe are complete bullshit, but I don't think that people who'd rather commit murder and start firefights in the middle of their own neighborhood than give up their firearms should have them at all.
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Post by Glocksman »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Glocksman wrote:There would be mass disobedience here, so I can just imagine how well random warrantless gun sweeps would go over in West Virginia.
My only concern is would you have enough body bags for all of the 'special police' that'd be blown away? :lol:
I'm completely against what's in the OP too, as warrantless sweeps of any stripe are complete bullshit, but I don't think that people who'd rather commit murder and start firefights in the middle of their own neighborhood than give up their firearms should have them at all.

Personally I have no moral qualms about shooting them down like mad dogs if Homer...er Dan Simpson's wet dream of random house to house warrantless searches (for any contraband, not just guns) ever comes to pass.
In a case such as this, all of the other boxes (Soap, Ballot, and Jury) have failed, so it's time to dig out the cartridge box.
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Post by Glocksman »

To qualify that, it'd be absent any exigent circumstances, such as looking for a hidden nuclear bomb about to detonate.
But the OP is about searching for illegal goods, not terrorist weapons of mass destruction.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by Falkenhayn »

Bounty wrote:
Jesus Christ... American law and politics...
Amen to that. Over here, you can be subjected to a breath test even if you so much as walk towards a car with the intent of driving it. Refusal to take the test is an automatic DUI, with a fine and a six-hour driving ban.

I like personal freedom as much as the next guy, but you whacky Americans sometimes really fail at having a modicum of perspective.
Did you bother to read the OP, or are you jumping in on the "Breathalyzer" Segue to take some pot shots at the stupid yanks?
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