Doom Star vs. Death Star

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 02:56pm

The Kernel wrote:
HRogge wrote: I'm really sorry... I did some webresearch for the maximum yield of a nuclear warhead... it seems to be below one megaton.
Aparently you have never heard of Tsar Bomba

Just check my original posting about the bomb... I said FISSION BOMB ( the one without the fusion bomb inside ).

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:00pm

I see three problems with MOO2 being discussed here:

1) A MOO2 BDZ does not destroy a planets eco-system, yet it kills every single inhabitant without exception (including underwater and subterranian life). These two facts seem to be difficult to resolve. Oh and orbital bombardment doesn't help because I can shoot a planet from extremely far away in the battle mode (not bombardment) and still kill all inhabitants and destroy every building. Bombardment is not the only way to depopulate a planet.

2) A Black Hole Generator does not create a real black hole because a real black hole would destroy the craft instantly. It is of course possible that the effect simply takes time to create the black hole (hence the three turn delay). As for the realism of it, I suggest we do not dwell on such matters.

3) The Stellar Converter must be a chain reaction weapon. Two problems with this. The first is that it is described by the tech document as merely an extremely powerful plasma weapon. Second, if it is a chain reaction, why can it be used for standard bombardment without planetary disruption?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:02pm

HRogge wrote: Just check my original posting about the bomb... I said FISSION BOMB ( the one without the fusion bomb inside ).

So why would a civilization with warp capability use pure fission bombs as weapons? And where in MOO2 does it indicate that the nuclear missiles are fission weapons?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:04pm

JodoForce wrote:(continuing my above post)

Me, I would stick to calling the one-turn thing an anomaly, since as HRogge mentioned, taking it seriously has the corollary effect of making none of the MOO weapons powerful enough (up to and including the tactical Stellar Converter) to cause even any climate change on a planet no matter how many shots you make--making them all inferior to turbolasers

Though now that this chink has been discovered, I'm sure there will be people that stick to the position that the tactical SC won't give the DS a scratch

Except that you can do all this in tactical mode, not just bombardment. Are you suggesting that tactical mode takes days to complete a turn?

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 03:05pm

The Kernel wrote:
HRogge wrote: Just check my original posting about the bomb... I said FISSION BOMB ( the one without the fusion bomb inside ).
So why would a civilization with warp capability use pure fission bombs as weapons? And where in MOO2 does it indicate that the nuclear missiles are fission weapons?

Has been some time since I played MoO2... isn't there a technology for "fusion warheads" ?

If no, just bump up the nuclear missile to 100 megatons... which would not make the SC much more powerful.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:10pm

HRogge wrote: Has been some time since I played MoO2... isn't there a technology for "fusion warheads" ?

If no, just bump up the nuclear missile to 100 megatons... which would not make the SC much more powerful.

No, not that I am aware of. Fusion DRIVES, but that is a much different thing.

Also, since you can indeed depopulate a planet with Nuclear Missiles in the game, there are certain lower limits as to their strength.

One last thing I forgot; the Phase Cloak! Does anyone else remember that with Hyper-X Capacitors, a Phase Cloak and a Time Warp Facilitator, a Doom Star can decloak, fire two full broadsides and then recloak without ever getting hit?

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 03:12pm

The Kernel wrote:One last thing I forgot; the Phase Cloak! Does anyone else remember that with Hyper-X Capacitors, a Phase Cloak and a Time Warp Facilitator, a Doom Star can decloak, fire two full broadsides and then recloak without ever getting hit?

Doesn't work against a ship like the Death Star, because the Death Star will not fight in turns... you decloak and exchange fire... no cheating, sorry

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2003-12-22 03:21pm

The Kernel wrote:
HRogge wrote: Just check my original posting about the bomb... I said FISSION BOMB ( the one without the fusion bomb inside ).
So why would a civilization with warp capability use pure fission bombs as weapons? And where in MOO2 does it indicate that the nuclear missiles are fission weapons?

Nuclear bombs = fission. Thermonuclear bombs = fusion. Nuclear bombs have an upper limit of ~500 kt.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:22pm

HRogge wrote: Doesn't work against a ship like the Death Star, because the Death Star will not fight in turns... you decloak and exchange fire... no cheating, sorry

Haha, okay I guess that wasn't fair. Still, that is a hell of fun trick. I've taken out entire fleets using a single Doom Star with that one.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:24pm

Dooey Jo wrote: Nuclear bombs = fission. Thermonuclear bombs = fusion. Nuclear bombs have an upper limit of ~500 kt.

I see, so no one calls fusion bombs nuclear weapons for short? Piss off with that, no spacefaring race is going to lack the ability to build a fusion bomb.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 03:25pm

The Kernel wrote:
Dooey Jo wrote: Nuclear bombs = fission. Thermonuclear bombs = fusion. Nuclear bombs have an upper limit of ~500 kt.
I see, so no one calls fusion bombs nuclear weapons for short? Piss off with that, no spacefaring race is going to lack the ability to build a fusion bomb.

Except for MoO3... the technology "fusion bomb" is a second or third level tech...

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:28pm

HRogge wrote: Except for MoO3... the technology "fusion bomb" is a second or third level tech...

Woah there buddy. We're talking about MOO2 here. Don't start introducing evidence from a vastly inferior game created by a bunch of hacks that were trying to emulate MOO2.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 03:29pm

The Kernel wrote:
HRogge wrote: Except for MoO3... the technology "fusion bomb" is a second or third level tech...
Woah there buddy. We're talking about MOO2 here. Don't start introducing evidence from a vastly inferior game created by a bunch of hacks that were trying to emulate MOO2.

Sorry, I mean Moo2... ( Fusion bombs are only available if you research some propulsion tech for 250 points ).

but the argument is still the same.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:33pm

HRogge wrote: Sorry, I mean Moo2... ( Fusion bombs are only available if you research some propulsion tech for 250 points ).

but the argument is still the same.

I just checked the tech tree. Since "Cold Fusion" is actually lower in that particular class then the fusion bomb, I think it is safe to say that they don't mean Nuclear Fusion when they say fusion bomb. After all, Star destroyers are powered by Fusion reactors right?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 03:35pm

EDIT: Or perhaps they are referring to a "pure-fusion" bomb with no fission detonator.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 03:50pm

The Kernel wrote:I just checked the tech tree. Since "Cold Fusion" is actually lower in that particular class then the fusion bomb, I think it is safe to say that they don't mean Nuclear Fusion when they say fusion bomb. After all, Star destroyers are powered by Fusion reactors right?

I remember something like a "solar ionization reactor"...

but let's just give these damned nuclear missiles a higher yield to stop this part of the discussion... 100-400 megatons ?

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2003-12-22 04:06pm

There's going to be a problem with measuring the destructive power of MOO2 weapons on planets because of the fact that planets in MOO2 have a maximum population of 40 MILLION (Huge Gaia, subterranean).

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 04:08pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:There's going to be a problem with measuring the destructive power of MOO2 weapons on planets because of the fact that planets in MOO2 have a maximum population of 40 MILLION (Huge Gaia, subterranean).

That would explain why ANYTHING except a full powered stellar converter shot cannot harm the ecosystem of the planet... they just have to wipe out a single city.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 04:42pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:There's going to be a problem with measuring the destructive power of MOO2 weapons on planets because of the fact that planets in MOO2 have a maximum population of 40 MILLION (Huge Gaia, subterranean).

The problem with that is that we don't know whether that is 40 million or 40 million population units. Notice that subterranian and underwater capabilities increase the amount of people that a planet can support? That wouldn't make any sense if 40 million represented true population.

And space for farming doesn't work either. Most of my planets in MOO2 don't even have farming and that doesn't increase the amount of population space.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-12-22 04:50pm

There is no theoretical upper limit on the yield of a fission (EDIT) weapon, only practical limits.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 04:54pm

NecronLord wrote:There is no theoretical upper limit on the yield of a fission reaction, only practical limits.

yes, there is a limit... at a certain point the uran/plutonium of your bomb would blow itself away faster than the chainreaction can spread.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-12-22 05:04pm

HRogge wrote: yes, there is a limit... at a certain point the uran/plutonium of your bomb would blow itself away faster than the chainreaction can spread.

To civilisations capable of FTL, this isn't a problem. Simultaneous 100kt detonations in 10,000 warheads for example solve this problem, with sufficient ueberscifi timing.

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2003-12-22 05:06pm

The Kernel wrote:
The problem with that is that we don't know whether that is 40 million or 40 million population units. Notice that subterranian and underwater capabilities increase the amount of people that a planet can support? That wouldn't make any sense if 40 million represented true population.

And space for farming doesn't work either. Most of my planets in MOO2 don't even have farming and that doesn't increase the amount of population space.

The game would make more sense if those were population units instead of actual population but even in the cut scenes when there is a plague or natural disaster, it states for example that 1 million colonists die, not one million units of colonists.

We need to also consider the fact that in combat, a stray barrage can destroy the population of a gaia planet entirely, while the planet maintains a gaia ecosystem at the same time.

My point is that it's problematic to use Moo2 ship weapon effects on planetary populations as a foundation for quantifying their destructive power.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-12-22 05:11pm

NecronLord wrote:
HRogge wrote: yes, there is a limit... at a certain point the uran/plutonium of your bomb would blow itself away faster than the chainreaction can spread.
To civilisations capable of FTL, this isn't a problem. Simultaneous 100kt detonations in 10,000 warheads for example solve this problem, with sufficient ueberscifi timing.

These kind of warheads are called "MIRV" warheads in MoO2, right ?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-22 05:19pm

HRogge wrote: These kind of warheads are called "MIRV" warheads in MoO2, right ?

MIRV warhead mean that they have the independent ability to release and target, it doesn't preclude multiple cores per warhead.

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Doom Star vs. Death Star

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