The real (best approximation) size of the Imperial Starfleet

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-29 02:16pm

I also like how he has absolutely not posted a SINGLE thing in regard to his boisterous claim that the Tantive IV was part of the Alderaan defense force after being smacked down by quite a few so I guess I have the joy and pleasure of saying....

CONCESSION ACCEPTED

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-08-29 02:40pm

Commander LeoRo wrote:I have decided to post another response just to drive home the fact that the Imperial Fleet was not as large as many of you are trying to say. First, I want to respond to the comment that the fleet at Endor was the local sector fleet. Even if the Imperial Fleet at Endor was the local sector fleet, didn't anyone consider that the Empire just might strengthen the local fleet due to the fact that the most important project in Imperial history was being made there??? I find it amazing that some of you try to use the 23 Star Destroyers located there as a base for all of the sectors in the Galaxy. To me,that sounds completely unreasonable.

This kinda prevents the DS2 construction from being secret, as a huge sector fleet would arouse some suspicion.

Besides, even if we accept your idea that this is the case, and assume that each sector only has a single ISD, thats a bare minimum thousand Star Destroyers, before taking into account any other ship type, and assuming that some 22 sectors were left completely undefended throughout the construction project. A far cry from "the Empire doesn't have thousands of warships".

I have another important point. Does anyone remember when Obi-wan told Han Solo that the Empire destroyed Alderaan? Did anyone catch what Han Solo said after Obi-wan said that? I suggest all of you who disagree with me to re-watch ANH. If you don't want to, I'll tell you what Han Solo said:

"The entire Starfleet (Imperial for those of you who don't get it yet) couldn't destroy the whole planet. It would take A THOUSAND ships with more firepower than I've..."

Ah yes, the common use of hyperbole to attempt to override military briefings. Recall that he said that the Empire couldn't do such a thing and lacked the firepower, after they'd just done it. Good call, dumbass.

Aaron2 · Post by **Aaron2** » 2002-08-29 02:42pm

Stravo wrote:I also like how he has absolutely not posted a SINGLE thing in regard to his boisterous claim that the Tantive IV was part of the Alderaan defense force after being smacked down by quite a few so I guess I have the joy and pleasure of saying....

CONCESSION ACCEPTED

If it wasn't part of the Alderaan defense force, then what was it?

Why was it filled with armed Alderaani? Captained my a man from Alderaan? Only allowed to carry around a member of the Alderaan royal family?

If Alderaan "had no weapons" as Leia claimed, how can it be the "main source of munitions" for the Alliance? [HINT: Vader knew she was lying]

Aaron

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-29 02:43pm

Stravo it looks better like this

CONCESSION ACCEPTED

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-29 02:47pm

If it wasn't part of the Alderaan defense force, then what was it?

Why was it filled with armed Alderaani? Captained my a man from Alderaan? Only allowed to carry around a member of the Alderaan royal family?

It was the Ambassarders personal ship, Note in the movie where they say WE are an ambassador ship and Vadar asks where is the Ambassador?

Armed Alderenians you mean?
They where not(How Cannon is the SW Card Game? There several of the people on the ship are mentioned as being from Courscant) as thats pure speculation on your part along with the second part about only allowed to carry a meber of the Royal Family?

Hint how could they is she was adopted?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-29 03:27pm

Hi Omega-13!

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-29 03:31pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Hi Omega-13!

Fuck that, he's not Omega-13. I messed up the IPs.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-29 03:42pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Hi Omega-13!

Fuck that, he's not Omega-13. I messed up the IPs.

I mock your foolish mistake. Mockmockmock.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-29 05:00pm

SirNitram wrote: I mock your foolish mistake. Mockmockmock.

*Scribbles SirNitram's name on LIST OF PEOPLE THAT SHOULD BE BANNED™*

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-29 06:05pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
SirNitram wrote: I mock your foolish mistake. Mockmockmock.

*Scribbles SirNitram's name on LIST OF PEOPLE THAT SHOULD BE BANNED™*

Furthermore, I mock the number of carriage returns when you quote.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-08-29 06:17pm

I too consider that worth mocking.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-08-29 10:54pm

I think the only person worth mocking is Commander LeoRo. Whats with all the idiots lately?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-29 10:59pm

1. Bean is right. It was a consular's ship.
2. The CCG is more canon than even ICS. It does not stray from what is seen in the movies, except for a very few cards. It has also been the first source, in the past, for names and things on background characters.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-29 11:03pm

Except the CCG is a game, and thus the lowest order.

And I would be mocking GAT as well, but I am busy eating pie right now. Maybe later.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-29 11:05pm

Ender wrote:Except the CCG is a game, and thus the lowest order.

And I would be mocking GAT as well, but I am busy eating pie right now. Maybe later.

That's really irrelevent as far as this debate goes. Remember that the CCG is our only source for this information, and so it is not overriden by anything.

AL · Post by AL » 2002-09-02 01:18am

in rotj han tells luke that there are alot of command ships. So obviously there is more than just one sector fleet as has been proposed. I would say the imp fleet is huge.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-09-02 04:47am

I made a little calc recently, the results:
25,000 ISD's
14 Million VSD's
24 million Dreadnaughts
330 Million misc ships ranging from frigate to gunships.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-02 11:04am

His Divine Shadow wrote:I made a little calc recently, the results:
25,000 ISD's
14 Million VSD's
24 million Dreadnaughts
330 Million misc ships ranging from frigate to gunships.

If you really want to be cruel you could use Marina's estimate

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-02 11:49am

Err btw where do the 14 million VSD come from?
They where the standard imp capship for a shorter period of time, and although they were still in production due to moderate costs, but 14 million? (not that I wouldn't like it...)

Aaron2 · Post by **Aaron2** » 2002-09-02 12:01pm

Master of Ossus wrote:1. Bean is right. It was a consular's ship.

I'm not sure what that means. Who owns a "consular's ship"?

In the Radio drama, Leia's father states that "only the royal house may ride in that ship" when debating with Leia as to who should go to get the Death Star plans, he or she. He also states that the ship is protected by "diplomatic immunity".

Intestingly, from the first parts of the radio drama, it seems that the imperials can't act unless special "Emergency Powers" are invoked. Also, ships are only subject to imperial search within designated "restricted systems". Which may be why Vader had to cover up the capture of Leia (since Tatooine wasn't restricted at the time). Of course, once the Senate was disolved, all bets were off.

This discussion (size of the imperial fleet) has at least three components:

A) What is the size of the imperial fleet when the empire is created?

B) What is the size of the imperial fleet at the beginning of ANH?

C) What is the size of the imperial fleet at the end of ROTJ? The high-water mark of the empire.

Anyone care to guess?

Aaron

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-02 12:09pm

A) What is the size of the imperial fleet when the empire is created?

B) What is the size of the imperial fleet at the beginning of ANH?

C) What is the size of the imperial fleet at the end of ROTJ? The high-water mark of the empire.

Well making actual numbers will be difficult, but I believe I can make up a relation:

The fleet at the time of the creation of the Empire approximately 18 years before ANH was probably huge, they had all the ships produced for the clone wars and also the new Victory class.

At ANH the fleet had already been reinforced with the Imperator class SD, and generaly it is said Palpy ordered massive ship building programs.

At Endor well.... probably not much more than at the time of ANH.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-09-02 12:10pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
I made a little calc recently, the results:
25,000 ISD's
14 Million VSD's
24 million Dreadnaughts
330 Million misc ships ranging from frigate to gunships.

You guys are really crazy if you believe that the Empire had this many capital ships. I think someone should write about the SW EU brainbug that continues to increase the number of cap ships the Empire had at its disposal. 25,000 Star Destroyers is high enough, but 368 million other warships including VSD's and Dreadnaughts is absurd. The Star Trek brainbugs are bad, but they don't even approach this level of incredulity.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-02 12:16pm

This is not absurd. In fact, this is realistic if you look at the fuckin' Death Star II!
This is canon evidence for the Imperial industrial capability, but you simply ignore it and try to sell us completely unrealistic fleet estimates with so few ships they wouldn't even suffice to hold together a few sectors, not to speak of the friggin' galaxy!

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-02 01:14pm

Its call the preputal Wall of Igonarcy Captian, A word first invented to Describe Dark-Star's Behaviror and now used to describe others who when presented with evidance deny it as trueful, when presented with yet more evidance yell even louder that its not true and thus countiuly build a wall of ignorancy untill such point where they completly ignore you.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-09-02 01:58pm

Commander LeoRo wrote:You guys are really crazy if you believe that the Empire had this many capital ships. I think someone should write about the SW EU brainbug that continues to increase the number of cap ships the Empire had at its disposal. 25,000 Star Destroyers is high enough, but 368 million other warships including VSD's and Dreadnaughts is absurd. The Star Trek brainbugs are bad, but they don't even approach this level of incredulity.

I believe you have not watched the movies nor understood or comprehended the size there.
The brainbug here is people constantly underestimating the size and scope of the SW galaxy.

Aanyhow, my calc was a bit assumptious really in proportions, but I gave 99.9% of the firepower to various superweapons.

Here it is:
Okie, this is based on the fact that around ANH a bit more than half the Imperial Fleet was as powerfull as the DS main weapon, to make it nice, I say the DS main weapon equals the whole starfleet, now according to the SW sourcebook, the Omperial Armed Forces doubled in strenght between ANH and TESB, so that means the imperial fleet now has more than twice the firepower of the Deatstar.

Insane numbers, logistics and industrial capacity, yes, now, lets be even more cruel and plug in some scaling numbers based on the ICS and we get ISD's rated at 158 petatons per ship.

Now we have 25k of those, thats 1e31 joules for all the imperial ships, fits whith the movies where Han says a 1000 ships couldn't do what the DS did.

At this point lets be generous and remove 99,9% of the fleets firepower as belonging to misc. superweapons.

Wich leaves us with 2e34 joules to distribute across the fleet.

Let's begin with the SSD's, let's say there where around a 1000 built of them, and that they are worth about 30 ISD's each, thats 4740 Petatons per SSD.
Thats 2e32j

We're now left with 1.9e34j

Let's begin with the VSD's, say they occupy uhm... 15% of this fleet, and I believe a VSD is roughly equal to 1 ISD, so thats 52 Petatons per VSD, to occupy 15% of this fleet, they would require 14 million VSD's

Okie, that leaves 85% still, or 1.6e34j

Now we have Dreadnaughts, they are worth about 6 dreads per ISD or 26Petatons.
Let's say they occupy 15% of the fleet, thats 24 Million Dreads

Still 70% left or 1e34j.

We're now left with minor frigates, corvettes and gunships, lets just assume in general that 30 such ships = 1 ISD or 5 Petatons, this would require 330 million various smaller ships.

Mean SHIT, I gave away 99,9% of all the imperials firepower and I still got uber calcs like this