The real (best approximation) size of the Imperial Starfleet

[Guest]

I would like everyone to consider this topic carefully. Throw out all of the EU material and just stick with the movie evidence. How many warships does the Imperial Starfleet actually have at its disposal? The onscreen evidence shows that the Empire does not have a large number of warships, certainly not hundreds or even thousands of warships. I'll give you all an example of why I believe this. If the Empire had thousands of warships at its disposal, why would the Rebels even be considered a threat (Several Imperial military leaders believed the rebels were a threat) to the Empire? The entire Rebel fleet at Endor only numbered a few dozen warships. How could a fleet of such small porportions be a threat to a "mighty" Imperial Starfleet. Furthermore, the Empire could only "spare" 23 Star Destroyers to deal with the Rebel fleet. If the Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers, why couldn't they have sent more? The best answer is that the Empire was always controlling the galaxy by its fingertips. The probably only had a thousand warships at most to defend their territory. That being the case, it is understandable why the Emperor sent 23 Star Destroyers to Endor. 23 Star Destroyers was a considerable part of the total Imperial fleet. Think about it this way. The United States is made up of several thousand individual cities. The entire Air Force only consists of a few thousand fighters/bombers. The navy only consists of a few hundred ships and at most a few dozen battleships. I believe the US only has a dozen carriers. That is all of the force that is necessary to defend the US and project its power. The same situation is true in the Star Wars galaxy. The Empire doesn't need or have the ability to create hundreds of thousands of warships. Think about it. If you have the capability of sending a fleet anywhere in the galaxy in a matter of hours, you do not need to have a warships stationed at every planet. That isn't practical.

I know what some of you are going to say... If the Empire could build a Death Star it could have built hundreds of thousands of other Star Destroyers in its place. Well, that line of reasoning is false in this context for the following reasons. First, you have to have the ability to train millions upon millions of people to operate and crew that many Star Destroyers. The Empire may not have had that kind of support or a sufficiently strong infrastructure to do that. Second, in order to make thousands of warships, you have to have thousands of shipyards. The Empire probably did not have access to that many shipyards or the ability to exploit all of them. In short, it was probably easier to spend its time and money on the Death Star projects than on thousands of Star Destroyer projects.

I raised this topic just to try to gain a deeper understand of the Empire's situation in the original and prequel trilogies. I would appreciate everyone to keep the conversation civil and respectful.

[Guest]

certainly not hundreds or even thousands of warships

I meant to say that the Empire does not have "thousands of warships". Just forget the "not hundred or even thousands" part.

[Cal Wright]

Maybe a threat to your fleet commander, not to this battlestation.

heh. at least the bastard looks cool as an action figure. just ask my vader that is force choking him.

I'll have to get back to you on the size of the Imperial fleet

[consequences]

hm, how best to respond, oh yeah... BULLSHIT!
We know from Phantom Menace that ships with only a few live operators can be built, removing most if not all manpower constraints.
We know that the Emperor didn't consider the Rebel fleet to be a threat to the Death Star, and the star destroyers were only there to keep the rebels from escaping, while the Death Star obliterated them one by one for propaganda footage. The only reason the Emperor was present was to coerce Luke to join him, since a fully trained high caliber Sith Lord is actually more of a threat than a Death Star.
The number of 25,000 Star Destroyers is official, from the novels, and nothing we see in the movies contradicts it. In fact, for a galaxy spanning empire that IS an incredibly small force to maintain control, and only the speed of hyperdive allows it to work at all. From the source material we have anywhere from 1-50 million worlds that the Empire controls, depending on what population and presence is used as a baseline. Say that the figure is 1 million planets worth having a star destroyer to protect. That means that for every star destroyer there are 40 worlds that could demand its attention, without even considering offensive actions. that means that the fleet assembled at Endor left 920 worlds without their regularly scheduled imperial presence, allowing who knows what Rebellions and piracy to occur. If the Empire had assembled a larger fleet, it would undoubtedly have attracted the attention of Rebel Intelligence, who would have concluded that they had no chance against the assembled firepower, depriving the Emperor of the opportunity to destroy a large portion of the Rebellion's fighting strength, along with many of its leaders.
Any strength smaller than that stated would completely remove any ability of the Empire to effectively protect and dominate its territory, turning it into the United Federation of Pushovers. They are already horribly under-militarised for their size and industrial strength.

[consequences]

Oh, and if you throw out the EU, it only gets worse for you anyway. Remember the Trade Federation blockade was not considered impressive, and that they possessed a miniscule fraction of the resources the Empire would later command. Look at the civilian traffic to and from Coruscant and try to say they wouldn't have a military strength measured in at least thousands of warships, go ahead, look up the statistical data presented on Wong's website and try to maintain your argument.

[Vympel]

Curtis Saxton:

"In the STAR WARS films we see three sub-classes of the common Imperator-class star destroyer, and a lone example of a much more powerful vessel, the dread Executor. It would be absurd to believe that the sample of warships seen briefly on film represents the entire productivity of the galaxy's naval starship designers over the quarter-century of Palpatine's reign. Logic suggests that the Imperial Starfleet should also include warships at sizes intermediate to the huge but rare Executor and the small but abundant destroyers; plus lesser vessel classes which are each even more numerous as the designs become smaller. A variety of combat starship classes spanning a broad spectrum of size, capability, number and cost will always be necessary to satisfy all of the practical needs of naval warfare balanced against the relative economics of shipbuilding.

This document attempts to assemble many of the previously-ignored glimpses of this greater Imperial Starfleet, and to consolidate a better representation of the principal classes of ships in its composition.

In this kind of exercise it is important to carefully consider the kinds of selection effects which are innate to our observations. With the exception of the Alderaan system, the STAR WARS films are entirely set in remote backwater regions of the galaxy, where the Galactic Empire has most difficulty projecting its power and the Rebel Alliance operates with relative impunity from secret refuges. Local naval forces, as represented by the Imperator-class star destroyer, are stretched thin, and major port facilities and construction yards will be more scarce than in better-populated regions. The only hint of more formidable naval power is the Executor, brought out from the Core by Lord Darth Vader when he took a personal interest in the hunt for rebels. By its association with Vader, Executor seems likely to represent the most powerful available technology, while the relatively tiny destroyers which attend it are certainly a more mundane piece of equipment. (It is often forgotten that they are the smallest canonical class of Imperial warship.)"

Also, you contend that it is cheaper to focus on one Death Star than it is to build <whatever> numbers of smaller Star Destroyers equate to.

In response,

1- what is a single 1.6km Imperial Star Destroyer compared to the *at least* 800km in diameter Death Star II? By size comparison alone: Absolutely NOTHING. Size is the most important factor to consider here. Because-

a: difficulty of building such a thing (not even considering that it has the ability to destroy a planet and can propel itself at both sublight and FTL speeds!)
b: difficulty of crewing such a thing
c: difficulty of maintaining such a thing

2- the DS and DS2 is blanketed in hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of turbolaser turrets only slightly smaller than the array of six dorsal heavy turbolasers on an ISD.

3- the DS has the ability to destroy an entire planet and scatter its mass

I don't see how you can possibly contend its cheaper.

[Lord of the Farce]

The Death Stars were each worth thousands to hundred of thousands of capital ships (in material, firepower, and crewing).

The second Death Star, which is at least twice the size of the first (in diameter), was built to roughly 60%... in total secrecy.

The twenty something Star Destroyers at Endor was only suppose to keep the Rebels from escaping, and .

And with the secrecy of the Second Death Star's construction, the Rebels believed that it would have been unarmed and has minimal protection, thus would not bring every ship at their disposal (particularly since the more ships they bring along, the more likely security would be comprimised, or an Imperial task force reacting to a fleet gathering).

[consequences]

The Death Stars were actually equal to millions of starships in terms of materials. Also, if you claim a ridiculously reduced fleet size, then each ships firepower becomes purely obscene, from the "firepower of half the starfleet" quote.

[Ender]

I love it when people try to degrade Wars like this.

LEt me just address one point: That of the rebels should not have been a threat with their firepower compared to the fleet, so the fleet must be small.

Al-Queda ain't shit to the USA. They don't have the manpower, the resources, of the firepower. Yet they are still a threat because of how they operate. The same case can be made for the rebels.

[SPOOFE]

If the Empire had thousands of warships at its disposal, why would the Rebels even be considered a threat (Several Imperial military leaders believed the rebels were a threat) to the Empire?

Same reason why the North Vietnamese were a threat to the United States armed forces... guerilla tactics.

The entire Rebel fleet at Endor only numbered a few dozen warships.

That was NOT the entirety of the Rebel fleet. It was only the size of the Rebel fleet that they could risk scraping together. Remember, if you lump a few hundred capital ships into one area, you're going to draw some attention, and that's precisely what the Rebels didn't want to do.

Furthermore, the Empire could only "spare" 23 Star Destroyers to deal with the Rebel fleet.

Again, wrongo. Remember, the Emperor was luring the Rebels into a trap. If he had a thousand Star Destroyers waiting for them at Endor... well, you get the same problem that the Rebels had above: That size of a force would be hard to hide, and the Rebels wouldn't attack, and then the Emperor's trap would have been wasted.

Besides, under conventional circumstances, 23 Star Destroyers should've been enough to mop the floor with the Rebel fleet.

Remember the quote from Mon Mothma in ROTJ: "With the Imperial fleet scattered about the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us..." Canon proof that the vast majority of the fleet was scouring Imperial space, trying to find the Rebels (although the Emperor had conveniently had his men avoid Sullust to trap them all...).

The United States is made up of several thousand individual cities. The entire Air Force only consists of a few thousand fighters/bombers. The navy only consists of a few hundred ships and at most a few dozen battleships. I believe the US only has a dozen carriers. That is all of the force that is necessary to defend the US and project its power.

The United States also only has 270 million people. The Empire had six or seven orders of magnitude more people living on just one planet. Factor in the millions of planets in Imperial space, and if scaled up - from the dozen carriers that the US has - suddenly you realize that, compared to the United States, the Empire's stated number of 25,000 ISD's is pitifully small compared to modern military force numbers.

If you have the capability of sending a fleet anywhere in the galaxy in a matter of hours, you do not need to have a warships stationed at every planet. That isn't practical.

A lot of things can happen in a couple hours. It just isn't practical to NOT have a warship stationed at every significant planet. That'd be equivalent to the United States pulling out all policemen and firemen from all but its ten most heavily populated cities.

First, you have to have the ability to train millions upon millions of people to operate and crew that many Star Destroyers.

They do, apparently. That number is, again, less than one-hundredth of one percent of the population of a single planet (Coruscant, which is estimated to have at least 500 trillion people living on it). I doubt that the Empire is lacking a population base from which to draw numbers.

Second, in order to make thousands of warships, you have to have thousands of shipyards.

Or just REALLY BIG shipyards. The Kuat Drive Yards encircle the entire planet, allowing thousands of ships to be under construction at once. The Corellian shipyards are supposed to be even bigger. Then there's Bilbringi, Sluis Van, the shipyards assigned to Black Sword command...

In short, it was probably easier to spend its time and money on the Death Star projects than on thousands of Star Destroyer projects.

Actually, the Empire was capable of undertaking the construction of the Death Star without any noticeable loss to its total resources. They were practically using Star Destroyers to wipe their asses.

[Mr Bean]

First off never bother to reply to somone who wants to throw out evidance

I would like everyone to consider this topic carefully. Throw out all of the EU material and just stick with the movie evidence.

Gee what if we threw out ALL ST but TOS(Hey wait thats not a bad idea..) and said lets just use THAT Evidance to calcuate how many ships the Feddys have



See the problem with this apporach?

If somone wants to throw away 95% of your Evidance why bother with them?

[Aaron2]

A couple points. First off, the size of the "trivial" blockade of Naboo can't be used to determine the size of the Imperial fleet since at the time that the blockade occurred, the Republic had -no- army and only a token navy. Yet it was trivial even then.

In TPM the Republic has a very small and insignificant military. In AOTC, the Republic gets a small army (on the galactic scale) and a few dozen starships. So, at some point after AOTC and before ROTJ, the Republic/Imperial fleet did, actually, have about 1000 star destroyers. The question is: when did they pass this number?

In ANH, Imperial officers were worried about the rebel fleet being well equipped, worried about generating sympathy for the rebels in the senate, and worried about how the emperor will maintain control without the "bureaucracy". All three of these comments indicate that the Emperor -at the time of ANH- could not control the galaxy with his fleet alone. So, I contend that the Imperial fleet was fairly small in ANH yet much, much larger by the time ROTJ came around. This also explains why there were so many incompetent naval officers, they were promoting too fast too weed out the bad ones effectively.

Also, the first Death Star was built with civilian backing (Lord Tion's (sp)) so it can't be used as a basis for the size of the fleet either.

Finally, about Mon Mothma's "scattered about the galaxy" comment; she was wrong. The Imperial Fleet (at least a part of it) was waiting near Endor.


Aaron

Aaron

[SirNitram]

Once the Trekkies are done masterbating to the fact they have a thread without the EU, I'll help dismantle them.

See, we see Tatooine. We see it is a backwater, worthless planet. Yet, there are two Imperators in orbit, which chase Han down. Alright, since we have no EU evidence, we'll use that as a benchmark.

We also, joyfully, get an estimate on the worlds in the Empire from Tarkin. A Million Worlds(Binded together in a chain because of this battlestation, I'm so fly I blow my mind).

I'm sure even these Trekkie fanatics can put together than 2 ISD's per planet x 1 million planets, and 2 million ISD's.

See? It's so much better for you idiots to just lay down and accept the 25,000 ISD quote.

[Aaron2]

See, we see Tatooine. We see it is a backwater, worthless planet. Yet, there are two Imperators in orbit, which chase Han down. Alright, since we have no EU evidence, we'll use that as a benchmark.

Of course, you know that the ISDs were only there because they chased the Tantive IV from the Toprowa system which was in open rebellion and thus neccessitated an Imperial blockade.


Aaron (not even close to a Trekie)

[Guest]

I would like to say a few things in response to some of the new posts. First, why are some of you assuming that I and anyone who may support my position are "trekkies"? In case you may have noticed, this post was made in the PURE STAR WARS section. It was not my intention to compare Star Wars to Star Trek or any other science fiction series. The next point I want to bring is the whole "EU" issue. The EU came about as a result of peoples' interest in Star Wars. It was created afterwards in order to supply the public with more Star Wars, it was not the original vision of George Lucas. If some of you want to argue that the West End Games statistics are useful in debate, then you can believe anything you want. In fact, if you want to use those statistics then I can argue that an Executer Class Command Ship is only 8 or so km long. That is what much of the EU literature says. Those statistics, of course, are completely wrong. If the EU is wrong about that and many other things, how can you trust the figures it gives for the Imperial Starfleet?

Some of you also think that the Imperial Starfleet had ships at every planet for defensive purposes. Did it ever occur to you that each star system probably has its own defense force? Princess Leia's ship in the beginning of ANH is a perfect example of that. Naboo is also an example of this. Even though they did not have a large fleet, they had starfighters and other cruisers for defense. With the availability of planetary shields, not every planet needs a defense force. If an aggressive force comes along all you do is turn on your shield and wait for reinforcements to end the siege, if the enemy even decides to wait around.

I think all of the evidence from the movies show that the Imperials could not adequately control all of their territory. Here is some more evidence. In the special edition after the fall of Palpatine in ROTJ, you see people celebrating all over the Empire. If the Empire had thousands of warships and garrisons on every world, don't you think they would be able to put down or control those celebrating people?? Isn't it more reasonable to say that GL was showing us the complete collapse of the Empire?? I know that some of you adore the Empire (In many ways I prefer the Empire to the OR and NR), but you need to control your emotions and debate logically. Just calling me or anyone else who you disagree with a "trekkie" does not show that you can debate intelligently.

[SirNitram]

See, we see Tatooine. We see it is a backwater, worthless planet. Yet, there are two Imperators in orbit, which chase Han down. Alright, since we have no EU evidence, we'll use that as a benchmark.

Of course, you know that the ISDs were only there because they chased the Tantive IV from the Toprowa system which was in open rebellion and thus neccessitated an Imperial blockade.


Aaron (not even close to a Trekie)

IIRC, just Vader's ISD chased the Tantive. The others were there for unknown reasons.

[SirNitram]

I would like to say a few things in response to some of the new posts. First, why are some of you assuming that I and anyone who may support my position are "trekkies"? In case you may have noticed, this post was made in the PURE STAR WARS section. It was not my intention to compare Star Wars to Star Trek or any other science fiction series. The next point I want to bring is the whole "EU" issue. The EU came about as a result of peoples' interest in Star Wars. It was created afterwards in order to supply the public with more Star Wars, it was not the original vision of George Lucas. If some of you want to argue that the West End Games statistics are useful in debate, then you can believe anything you want. In fact, if you want to use those statistics then I can argue that an Executer Class Command Ship is only 8 or so km long. That is what much of the EU literature says. Those statistics, of course, are completely wrong. If the EU is wrong about that and many other things, how can you trust the figures it gives for the Imperial Starfleet?

Some of you also think that the Imperial Starfleet had ships at every planet for defensive purposes. Did it ever occur to you that each star system probably has its own defense force? Princess Leia's ship in the beginning of ANH is a perfect example of that. Naboo is also an example of this. Even though they did not have a large fleet, they had starfighters and other cruisers for defense. With the availability of planetary shields, not every planet needs a defense force. If an aggressive force comes along all you do is turn on your shield and wait for reinforcements to end the siege, if the enemy even decides to wait around.

I think all of the evidence from the movies show that the Imperials could not adequately control all of their territory. Here is some more evidence. In the special edition after the fall of Palpatine in ROTJ, you see people celebrating all over the Empire. If the Empire had thousands of warships and garrisons on every world, don't you think they would be able to put down or control those celebrating people?? Isn't it more reasonable to say that GL was showing us the complete collapse of the Empire?? I know that some of you adore the Empire (In many ways I prefer the Empire to the OR and NR), but you need to control your emotions and debate logically. Just calling me or anyone else who you disagree with a "trekkie" does not show that you can debate intelligently.

Okay, you aren't a Trekkie. You're just a fucking moron. Feel better, little boy?

Second, on the EU. You're a fucking moron. Read Canon policy. Realize that where contradicted by the movies(Like the Executor's length), the EU is tossed out. IE, you're a fucking moron.

Third, on planetary forces. The Tantive V is a diplomatic cruiser. Anyone watching the movie realizes this. The Queen's Starship is unarmed. Anyone who watched the movie realized that. Again, you prove yourself a moron.

And finally, your attempt to ignore evidence(Like what I showed), and flat out throw out evidence endorsed by Lucas himself as Official just shows you are a fucking moron, probably a Trekkie or a Fiver hiding here because you KNOW you'll get your ass kicked in a vs. debate, trying to chip away at Star Wars. Keep masterbating to your fantasies, kiddo. You've proven yourself dishonest, stupid, and moronic.

[Guest]

Didn't Vader establish that the Tantive Iv was not a diplomatic ship? In fact, Leia said it was diplomatic ship in order to fool Darth Vader, when she knew that there was no Ambassador on board the ship. The ship was from Alderaan and it was part of the Rebel Alliance. As far as it not being armed... Perhaps you are blind and did not see the little red turbolaser blasts coming from the Tantive IV when the Star Destroyer was chasing it? You should be careful who you call a moron.

[Guest]

I didn't realize you switched ships and mentioned Amidala's ship instead of Princess Leia's. You are correct about Amidala's ship, but still incorrect on Leia's ship.

[SirNitram]

I didn't realize you switched ships and mentioned Amidala's ship instead of Princess Leia's. You are correct about Amidala's ship, but still incorrect on Leia's ship.

Provide evidence it is part of Alderaan's defense fleet. Of course, you've shot yourself in the foot with your ridiculous removal of all material Lucas has deemed Canon and Official aside from the movies. And no where in the movie does it mention it being part of the defense force.

And if Alderaan had a defense fleet, why wasn't it attackin the Death Star? Unless... And this might surprise your little, little brain.. The defense fleet was two Imperator-class Star Destoyers and they left when Tarkin arrived, since they knew Tarkin was in control.

[jegs2]

I think the error Leoro makes is his comparison of the United States with the Empire. Twenty-five thousand ISD's would likely not be sufficient to patrol (and control) the millions of inhabited star systems under Imperial control. Furthermore, the Empire rules only through force or the threatened use of it. Such a totalitarian government's survival depends on a massive military structure and force projection capabilities to deploy that force (i.e. the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany). Aside from those who misunderstand (or purposely misrepresent) the US, most folks understand that it is not designed to conquer and control territory and annex it under a dictatorship. Since the US is not a dictatorship, it does not require immense garrisons of troops within the territories under its control in order to maintain order.

About the only comparison that could be made between the US and the Empire is that both depend primarily upon a strong fleet with quick power-projection capabilities within their spheres of influence in order to protect their own interests.

[jegs2]

Another thing to consider is that insurgents, rebels, terrorists (pick your own definition) nearly always have the element of surprise and are not generally constrained by rules and regulations under which state-sponsored military structures fall. Thus, the Rebels were able to nearly always choose the times and places in which to strike. That the Empire ever had any forewarning of a Rebel strike speaks highly of their intelligence apparatus.

For comparison purposes, see how the US defends itself against Islamist terrorists, who can strike anywhere and at any time with little to no warning. Our military and intelligence resources are stretched quite thin dealing with these reclusive, yet deadly, threats to national (and international) security.

[LordChaos]

I shouldn't, but....

Furthermore, the Empire could only "spare" 23 Star Destroyers to deal with the Rebel fleet. If the Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers, why couldn't they have sent more?

The CANON Radio Drama (yes, it's canon) states that the imperial forces at Endor are the local Sector Fleet. If you have a million systems (canon) in 1000+ sectors (extracted assumption based on canon - the senat chamber in TPM), then 25,000 star destroyers fits quite well with the size of the endor fleet.

[Ender]

Didn't Vader establish that the Tantive Iv was not a diplomatic ship? In fact, Leia said it was diplomatic ship in order to fool Darth Vader, when she knew that there was no Ambassador on board the ship. The ship was from Alderaan and it was part of the Rebel Alliance. As far as it not being armed... Perhaps you are blind and did not see the little red turbolaser blasts coming from the Tantive IV when the Star Destroyer was chasing it? You should be careful who you call a moron.

No. She was the fucking ambassador. Vader proved she was lying by saying she was on no "mission of mercy". Nothing more.

Your attempts to twist canon are quite pathetic.

[Mr Bean]

Before anyone else can say it

He’s as clumsy as he is stupid