Jedi Vs. Priors [SG1 S9 Spoilers]

[Elheru Aran]

Excuse me but what the Ori/Priors? I havent seen SG1 in a while, since like last season, and this is a spoiler thread so if someone could throw me a bit of info.

I'm just interested, these people sound rather odd but interesting.

The Ori are apparently related to the Ancients of SG1; except they're the bad cousins of said Ancients. They're Ascended, but they demand worship; it's pretty obvious that the Stargate writers are taking a dig at religious fundamentalism. The Priors are their missionaries; they come with a staff that's apparently capable of either augmenting or adding to their powers. I'm at work so I don't really have the time to provide much in the way of details...

[NecronLord]

Actually, according to Olorin, the Orii were originally religious fanatics, not simply demanding worship.

Imagine if the non-fundies in America left on a big ship. The guys who went on the ship would be the Ancients/Alterans, and the fundies left behind would be the Orii.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ah ok so the Orii are like...the Fundie God and the Ancients are like the Moderate God.

The Priors then are the fundies, i guess.

Thank you much, that about clears it up for me. Also it makes all them powers they have make sense now, considering they're getting a major boost probably from Ancient (or Ancient-like) people.

[Lancer]

oh, and worshipping the Orii / giving over your will to them makes em more powerful.

[Solauren]

Only if it's done on a galactic scale

[Crown]

Two things;

1. I'm pretty sure that Anubis' clone was Prior level advanced, since the Prior's themselves aren't up to assention level either. Someone check out the episode.
2. Using the example of Prior TK from 'Beach Head' is a little off, since we know that this particular Prior was;
   1. Using the wormhole to augment his powers.
   2. Absorbing the Jaffa staff blasts to give his powers a boost.

Also, I haven't seen anyone quantify - you know with numbers - the TK abilities of either Jedi or Prior at all in this thread.

[Xon]

In the OP, the Prior pops out of an active stargate and it is standard kit for them to have that staff and the book of Origin.

So it has everything it needs to repeat the collapsing of the planet into a blackhole while holding off orbital bombardment

[Crown]

In the OP, the Prior pops out of an active stargate and it is standard kit for them to have that staff and the book of Origin.

So it has everything it needs to repeat the collapsing of the planet into a blackhole while holding off orbital bombardment

*wags finger*

Only, and only if the stargate remains open (and it is powered by a micro singularity on the other side, otherwise all he's got is 38 mins) to draw upon its energy. Otherwise, all his got is his staff and the book of Origin.

[NecronLord]

The shield that absorbed energy from weapons employed against it was the theatre shield. The personal shield used in the previous scene is seperate entirely. It has different characteristics. Also, you have presented no argument to prove that the telekinesis and theatre shield abilities are linked.

The wormhole was indeed open, but we again do not know how if at all this is linked to the telekinesis, which is as far as we can tell, a built in 'magic' ability, unlike the theatre shield, which is clearly some form of technology.

If you must have quantification, then we shall use this.

He was able to fling six adult jaffa out of the range at which they could be seen on the TV. Let's assume that this is several hundred feet. We'll be conservative, and say 120 meters. The jaffa, were with one exeption, male, and mostly quite well built. Therefore I shall use the average weight of a United States man to estimate their combined mass. This weight is 189.8 pounds. 86.0918318 kgs per jaffa. A combined mass of 516.55 Kg.

The throw begins at 2 minutes into the episode (my recording) exactly, and the jaffa disappear three seconds later. This is 413240 J of KE.

Now, we could use the same style argument that is routinely applied and accepted to Jedi telekinesis on this board, and have the Prior apply this energy to blowing the Jedi's Aorta open. But as it happens, I personally favour just using it to point out that after one second of confrontation with the prior using this ready estimate of distance, the jedi will find himself 240 meters away. Flying very fast, and soon finding himself smeared across whatever he hits.

[Crown]

The shield that absorbed energy from weapons employed against it was the theatre shield. The personal shield used in the previous scene is seperate entirely. It has different characteristics. Also, you have presented no argument to prove that the telekinesis and theatre shield abilities are linked.

The wormhole was indeed open, but we again do not know how if at all this is linked to the telekinesis, which is as far as we can tell, a built in telekinetic ability, unlike the theatre shield, which is clearly some form of technology.

If I recall we've seen a Prior use TK once without the help of his staff (I forget the episode name, I'm pretty sure it was episode 3 of the season), to call his staff to him. IIRC the staff was 'inactive' during this period.

In the example mentioned above, the Prior used the staff to push the Jaffa - again IIRC it glowed - since we know that the staff augments a Prior's power and again since we know that the Prior used the staff to raise the tactical shield to begin with, and once again since we know that the Prior was drawing on the wormhole's power from dialogue, then it stands to reason that this evidence should be put in the 'questionable' bin.

However I will proceed, for the moment, on the assumption that the Prior wasn't using the gate's power (via his staff) to augment his abilities, since it is more than likely that I'm not recalling this episode properly.

If you must have quantification, then we shall use this.

He was able to fling six adult jaffa out of the range at which they could be seen on the TV. Let's assume that this is several hundred feet. We'll be conservative, and say 120 meters. The jaffa, were with one exeption, male, and mostly quite well built. Therefore I shall use the average weight of a United States man to estimate their combined mass. This weight is 189.8 pounds. 86.0918318 kgs per jaffa. A combined mass of 516.55 Kg.

The throw begins at 2 minutes into the episode (my recording) exactly, and the jaffa disappear three seconds later. This is 413240 J of KE.

Now, we could use the same style argument that is routinely applied and accepted to Jedi telekinesis on this board, and have the Prior apply this energy to blowing the Jedi's Aorta open. But as it happens, I personally favour just using it to point out that after one second of confrontation with the prior using this ready estimate of distance, the jedi will find himself 240 meters away. Flying very fast, and soon finding himself smeared across whatever he hits.

Jedi to not die from 'very big/fast falls'; here.

Now, we also know that Jedi can 'repel' other TK attacks (RotS), so lets look at some Jedi TK feats. They are numerous in TPM, AotC, RotS, TESB and RotJ.

Unfortunately we require a fair work of speculation to quantify anything from them, but in my opinion one that is the easiest is in TESB where Yoda lifts Luke's X-Wing out of the swamp. The reason for this is that we can make a few educated guess as to the 'weight/mass' of Luke's X-Wing, by using real-life Earth built fighters.

In this case, I have chosen the F-16A model (block 10) since it is probably the lightest example in order to be conservative. The F-16 weighs in at 15,600 lbs (7,076 kg) when totally empty. So lets use that.

Now lets find the Force necessary to overcome Dagobah's pull on the X-wing.

Assume standard Earth gravity (9.82 m/s^2);

F=ma
F=7076*9.82
F=69486.32 N

We know Yoda was able to do at least that, since it would require more Force to actually lift move it up. All this is, is the minimum to levitate.

Now, lets assume that a prior weighs the same as an average United States male (86 kg being mindful of significant figures), what kind of KE would be imparted unto the Prior if he were to piss off the Jedi?

Well again lets use the equation for Force to find out, remembering that acceleration is the rate of change of velocity;

F=m*(dv/dt)

(dv/dt)=F/m
(dv/dt)=69486.32/86
(dv/dt)=808 (once again using significant figures)

Now, in order to be extremely conservative, lets say that it takes the Jedi TWO WHOLE SECONDS to exert this Force;

dv=404 m/s

To work out the Prior's KE;

KE=0.5*m*v^2
KE=0.5*86*404^2
KE=0.5*86*163216
KE=7018288 J

Lets compare;

Jedi TK (in terms of KE); 7018288
Prior TK (n terms of KE); 413240

*snicker*

That's one dead prior right there. Yoda's TK is an entire order of magnitude greater than that of the Prior. Even if we assume that Yoda is an order of magnitude more powerful than Jedi-Average, then Jedi-Average's TK is still 1.7 times stronger than that of a Prior.

[NecronLord]

And yet they apply this in combat... when?

The Priors go for this right away with a simple gesture, the most powerful of the Jedi pull this sort of thing off with exterme effort and absolute concentration. Why not mention KJA's laughable force-push-the-star-destroyers while you're at it?

It's obvious that even when it would be of great benefit (such as when fighting Grievous) they are not able to replicate the Prior's casual feat. Jedi combat TK and Prior combat TK are clearly very different.

[Crown]

And yet they apply this in combat... when?

Your concession has been accepted and noted. Now go away.

[NecronLord]

Your concession has been accepted and noted. Now go away.

Come on, why didn't Obi-Wan knock out a few times the prior's TK, and destroy Grievous? The prior seems to do this as easily as I type this sentance. Yoda, on the other hand, requires absolute concentration to lift the X-wing.

EDIT: At most you've proven that Yoda could do greater damage with Telekinesis than the Prior did.What about the rest of them? Esp the 'standard' jedi?

[Crown]

Your concession has been accepted and noted. Now go away.

Come on, why didn't Obi-Wan knock out a few times the prior's TK, and destroy Grievous? The prior seems to do this as easily as I type this sentance. Yoda, on the other hand, requires absolute concentration to lift the X-wing.

TPM: Obi-Wan sends droids on their asses by wriggling his fingers.

AotC onwards; does 'shroud of the Dark Side' mean anything to you? We could look at the TK feats in AotC and RotS (Obi-Wan owning Grevious), but I picked this example since it was the easiest to quantify with the minimum amount of speculation and assumptions.

TESB Yoda; six months from his death bed.

Debate post mortem: You foolishly based your position on 'what looks cool' rather than any objective quantifiable evidence. When you are called on it, and shown to be wrong, you bitch moan and squirm trying to find a 'loophole'.

There isn't one. I've been fair, *extremely* generous and patient.

Deal with it.


And don't think that it has escaped my notice that you totally ignored point [1] of my original post. If you can bring yourself to be rational and honest, I'd like a reply.

[NecronLord]

Additional:

In the example mentioned above, the Prior used the staff to push the Jaffa - again IIRC it glowed - since we know that the staff augments a Prior's power and again since we know that the Prior used the staff to raise the tactical shield to begin with,

Actually, untrue. The staff goes inert when the shield is raised.

Jedi to not die from 'very big/fast falls'; here.

Odd, I recall the two most skilled force users in the movies, light and dark side, scrabbling to avoid a fall in episode three. And the one that actually falls lying there winded for several mintues. And presumably, I am also alone in recalling Emperor palpatine being affected by simply being flung across his office onto a chair? With sufficient preparaton, Anakin skywalker can take such drops. Can other Jedi? I don't see why we should think so.

Now, we also know that Jedi can 'repel' other TK attacks (RotS),

I operate under the assumption that like doesn't always operate with like. B5 telepaths can't block 40K telepaths, and 40K telekinetics couldn't block SG1 telekinetics. YMMV.

EDIT LOG: Fixed formatting error.

[NecronLord]

TPM: Obi-Wan sends droids on their asses by wriggling his fingers.

Yes. Rather like Khalek (not a Prior, but similar) sending Tau'ri soldiers flying without moving. And significantly less than what the aformentioned Prior did.

AotC onwards; does 'shroud of the Dark Side' mean anything to you?

The one that's supposedly (given the understanding we now have) only an effect of the chaos of war, and clouds long range abilities, not close range ones.

We could look at the TK feats in AotC and RotS (Obi-Wan owning Grevious), but I picked this example since it was the easiest to quantify with the minimum amount of speculation and assumptions.



TESB Yoda; six months from his death bed.

At his most skilled, yes.

Debate post mortem: You foolishly based your position on 'what looks cool' rather than any objective quantifiable evidence. When you are called on it, and shown to be wrong, you bitch moan and squirm trying to find a 'loophole'.

What, that Jedi do not sling fighters around casually? They don't. If they did, why didn't Palpatine end up looking like a ragdoll that had been beaten with baseball bats after Yoda TKed him with the element of surprise? Why don't they swat jetbikes persuing them out of the air? What the most skilled light side master ever can do when he's at his peak of wisdom and knowledge is not what the 'average jedi' (as in half of these scenarios) can do. You've not done anything but claim that the average jedi is 1/10th the telekineticist Yoda is.

Hell, I would point you to Dark Rendevous. We know that some jedi can barely lift a coin. (though admittedly, Scout supposedly did turn it into a projectile accidentally a few times. )

And don't think that it has escaped my notice that you totally ignored point [1] of my original post. If you can bring yourself to be rational and honest, I'd like a reply.

Actually, I missed it. I do believe I've now responded.

[Crown]

Additional:

In the example mentioned above, the Prior used the staff to push the Jaffa - again IIRC it glowed - since we know that the staff augments a Prior's power and again since we know that the Prior used the staff to raise the tactical shield to begin with,

Actually, untrue. The staff goes inert when the shield is raised.

Funny, I'm sure that's an answer to *some* question, just not mine.

Jedi to not die from 'very big/fast falls'; here.

Odd, I recall the two most skilled force users in the movies, light and dark side, scrabbling to avoid a fall in episode three. And the one that actually falls lying there winded for several mintues. And presumably, I am also alone in recalling Emperor palpatine being affected by simply being flung across his office onto a chair? With sufficient preparaton, Anakin skywalker can take such drops. Can other Jedi? I don't see why we should think so.

Odly, one would think that after their lengthy battle they weren't too keen to test it out - ya think?

And what, did you close your eyes during TPM when Obi-Wan fell 30 odd feet and landed on his back? Also Mace did the same in the book Shatterpoint, as are other references scattered throughout the literature.

Now, we also know that Jedi can 'repel' other TK attacks (RotS),

I operate under the assumption that like doesn't always operate with like. B5 telepaths can't block 40K telepaths, and 40K telekinetics couldn't block SG1 telekinetics. YMMV.

What a marvelous concept! So ST shields don't stop SW weapons, SW shields don't stop SG weapons, etc, etc.

You have no idea how to debate 'quantifiable' do you? Should we move this into Fantasy?

Fine, lets 'assume' that you are right, Jedi quick draw can be gained from the thread I posted as 0.042 < t < 0.21 (this is discounting precog). Counting precog, the Prior is made a bitch even quicker.

Happy chappy?

[Zac Naloen]

Odd, I recall the two most skilled force users in the movies, light and dark side, scrabbling to avoid a fall in episode three. And the one that actually falls lying there winded for several mintues. And presumably, I am also alone in recalling Emperor palpatine being affected by simply being flung across his office onto a chair? With sufficient preparaton, Anakin skywalker can take such drops. Can other Jedi? I don't see why we should think so

Necron, who was winded for several minutes? Yoda got up immediately and escaped after falling from what looks like a atleast a 50 metre fall. (a fall that would have killed any normal human person) After being thrown across a room the emperor got up almost immediately. and when yoda was winded he'd just been jolted by the emperors full power force lightning.

The only person who was knocked unconcious was obi-wan at the beginning, who should have been severely injured after a platform collapsed on his pelvis. yet... he has no injury at all. Infact he wakes up right as rain at most ten minutes later.

[Crown]

TPM: Obi-Wan sends droids on their asses by wriggling his fingers.

Yes. Rather like Khalek (not a Prior, but similar) sending Tau'ri soldiers flying without moving. And significantly less than what the aformentioned Prior did.

And I believe that Anubis Jnr was quoted as 'Prior minus the staff', which brings us back to point [2].

AotC onwards; does 'shroud of the Dark Side' mean anything to you?

The one that's supposedly (given the understanding we now have) only an effect of the chaos of war, and clouds long range abilities, not close range ones.

Au contraire. Obi-Wan specifically felt 'the shroud lift' when facing Grevious in the begining, allowing him to once again feel the Force like he once did (10 odd years ago). This is specifically mentioned for 'close range' abilities (whatever they are supposed to be).

We could look at the TK feats in AotC and RotS (Obi-Wan owning Grevious), but I picked this example since it was the easiest to quantify with the minimum amount of speculation and assumptions.

TESB Yoda; six months from his death bed.

At his most skilled, yes.

Six months from his death bed, with the shroud still up and running? What crack are you smoking?

Debate post mortem: You foolishly based your position on 'what looks cool' rather than any objective quantifiable evidence. When you are called on it, and shown to be wrong, you bitch moan and squirm trying to find a 'loophole'.

What, that Jedi do not sling fighters around casually? They don't. If they did, why didn't Palpatine end up looking like a ragdoll that had been beaten with baseball bats after Yoda TKed him with the element of surprise? Why don't they swat jetbikes persuing them out of the air? What the most skilled light side master ever can do when he's at his peak of wisdom and knowledge is not what the 'average jedi' (as in half of these scenarios) can do. You've not done anything but claim that the average jedi is 1/10th the telekineticist Yoda is.

Hell, I would point you to Dark Rendevous. We know that some jedi can barely lift a coin. (though admittedly, Scout supposedly did turn it into a projectile accidentally a few times. )

Why? Why? Why? Why? etc, etc.

Are you familiar with the debating and logical fallacy of 'beggin the question'? If you are unfamiliar with its definition, you are quite good at it in practice.

It's not up to me to justify X Jedi's behaivour in Y situation every god damn time you moron. All I have to show is what a Jedi is capable of in the terms of this debate. No more, no less.

Stop embarrasing yourself.

[NecronLord]

Funny, I'm sure that's an answer to *some* question, just not mine.

Oh for fuck's sake. The staff was not active when the shield was active. We have nothing but supposition to suggest that the staff was involve. It is supposition I'd support, but there is no proof

Odly, one would think that after their lengthy battle they weren't too keen to test it out - ya think?

I must agree. I note that you have ignored Yoda and Palpatine not killing each other at the beginning of the duel given the forces they'd have to be slinging around if your estimates of their readily accessible powers are correct.

What you are saying, let me remind you, is that a difficult feat which took Yoda several seconds to accomplish, and left him exhausted, is equal to the Prior's almost casual disposal of the jaffa. A vastly more appropriate incident is the disabling of the droids in TPM.

And what, did you close your eyes during TPM when Obi-Wan fell 30 odd feet and landed on his back?

Yes, actually. I'd forgotten that one. I'm not sure it was thirty foot, and it certainly wasn't the same as the height involved. Which is of course, ignoring the contention that sauce for the goose (the commonly applied SDN argument that a Jedi can mush someone's brain) is sauce for the gander (in that Priors have demonstrated some flexibility in their powers) in which case, it again boils down to which one resorts to trying it first.

Also Mace did the same in the book Shatterpoint, as are other references scattered throughout the literature.

Page reference for such drops in Shatterpoint?

What a marvelous concept! So ST shields don't stop SW weapons, SW shields don't stop SG weapons, etc, etc.

Mystical powers are not easily quantified things like weapons fire. How does, for example, a Jedi aquire the ability to block (not apply a counter force mind, block) a spell of telekinesis cast by a Faerun sorcerer for example? How does he aquire the ability to block (not apply a counter-force, but hold up his hand and block as in the Obi-Wan-Anakin duel) a stargate telekinetic's powers?

You have no idea how to debate 'quantifiable' do you? Should we move this into Fantasy?

If you want. Telepathy, Telekinesis, Force powers and such are magic stuff.

Right, let's get this straight. A telekinetic in Star Wars uses a mystical energy field known as the Force to push things. A Telekinetic in stargate uses unexplaind bullshit and/or a mechanical device. Why does the mystical energy field from one

Fine, lets 'assume' that you are right, Jedi quick draw can be gained from the thread I posted as 0.042 < t < 0.21 (this is discounting precog). Counting precog, the Prior is made a bitch even quicker.

Happy chappy?

Except you're assuming that the Jedi's first action will be to go for a power they rarely use, instead of attacking his opponent with a lightsaber. How likely, assuming the Jedi doesn't know about the personal shield, is he to go straight to the TK?

Furthermore, again, you're not addressing the fact that an average Jedi is not Mace Windu. Nor is an average Joe Jedi Yoda, or Anakin, or Obi-Wan. An average jedi's abilities are shown best by their preformance in the Arena in AotC. There is certainly some Telekinesis, but nothing on nearly the same level.

[NecronLord]

And I believe that Anubis Jnr was quoted as 'Prior minus the staff', which brings us back to point [2].

Which is of course, an unsupported supposition that wasn't even made by me. We don't know how Priors compare.

Au contraire. Obi-Wan specifically felt 'the shroud lift' when facing Grevious in the begining, allowing him to once again feel the Force like he once did (10 odd years ago). This is specifically mentioned for 'close range' abilities (whatever they are supposed to be).

I have the page in front of me now. It then immediately talks about how he uses this lifting of the shroud to immerse himself in the force and be able to forsee better. It does not say he suddenly gained a host of abilities he'd lost. He regained the ability to feel the force fully and use its guidance. There is no contradiction here.

Six months from his death bed, with the shroud still up and running? What crack are you smoking?

You know it was 'up and running?' We know that Yoda gained abilities in his exile, not least from the teachings of Qui-Gon Jinn.

Why? Why? Why? Why? etc, etc.

Are you familiar with the debating and logical fallacy of 'beggin the question'? If you are unfamiliar with its definition, you are quite good at it in practice.

It's not up to me to justify X Jedi's behaivour in Y situation every god damn time you moron. All I have to show is what a Jedi is capable of in the terms of this debate. No more, no less.

Stop embarrasing yourself.

Are you going to stop ignoring the fact that these examples you have are categorically not 'average jedi' but are largely Jedi Masters and Chosen Ones? The average Jedi is not all that impressive.

Post a proof of Near-Death Yoda being only 10 times more powerful than a Jedi Consular whose main job is in helping planetary governments hunt down lawbreakers.

[Crown]

Funny, I'm sure that's an answer to *some* question, just not mine.

Oh for fuck's sake. The staff was not active when the shield was active. We have nothing but supposition to suggest that the staff was involve. It is supposition I'd support, but there is no proof

Don't be a total dumbass. We are discussing the staff augmenting the Prior's power dipshit. My question was whether or not it was active when he used TK on the Jaffa. Clear enough for you?

Odly, one would think that after their lengthy battle they weren't too keen to test it out - ya think?

I must agree. I note that you have ignored Yoda and Palpatine not killing each other at the beginning of the duel given the forces they'd have to be slinging around if your estimates of their readily accessible powers are correct.

What you are saying, let me remind you, is that a difficult feat which took Yoda several seconds to accomplish, and left him exhausted, is equal to the Prior's almost casual disposal of the jaffa. A vastly more appropriate incident is the disabling of the droids in TPM.

Well it looks like NecronLord's debate tactic of 'if they didn't use it in situation B even though we know that they are capable of it due to situation A then it means we through the evidence - which just so happens to destroy my arguement totally and completely but of course I'm not motivated by that - right out the window!'

And what, did you close your eyes during TPM when Obi-Wan fell 30 odd feet and landed on his back?

Yes, actually. I'd forgotten that one. I'm not sure it was thirty foot, and it certainly wasn't the same as the height involved. Which is of course, ignoring the contention that sauce for the goose (the commonly applied SDN argument that a Jedi can mush someone's brain) is sauce for the gander (in that Priors have demonstrated some flexibility in their powers) in which case, it again boils down to which one resorts to trying it first.

Precog. Enough said.

Also Mace did the same in the book Shatterpoint, as are other references scattered throughout the literature.

Page reference for such drops in Shatterpoint?

Nope. Will find it for you later.

What a marvelous concept! So ST shields don't stop SW weapons, SW shields don't stop SG weapons, etc, etc.

Mystical powers are not easily quantified things like weapons fire. How does, for example, a Jedi aquire the ability to block (not apply a counter force mind, block) a spell of telekinesis cast by a Faerun sorcerer for example? How does he aquire the ability to block (not apply a counter-force, but hold up his hand and block as in the Obi-Wan-Anakin duel) a stargate telekinetic's powers?

We use imperical evidence and 'judge' which demonstrates the most power. For example; Lyta Alexander made the people in the Zocolo her bitch, Emperor Palpatine blocked out the memories of trillions to disguise him constructing and then burying an entire Star Dreadnaught on the surface of Coruscant. Who do you think would win?

You have no idea how to debate 'quantifiable' do you? Should we move this into Fantasy?

If you want. Telepathy, Telekinesis, Force powers and such are magic stuff.

Right, let's get this straight. A telekinetic in Star Wars uses a mystical energy field known as the Force to push things. A Telekinetic in stargate uses unexplaind bullshit and/or a mechanical device. Why does the mystical energy field from one

Thankyou for showing what a dumbass you are. If we can quantify their feats, then we can discuss them. Quantification was done, and the Priors were found wanting. End of discussion.

Fine, lets 'assume' that you are right, Jedi quick draw can be gained from the thread I posted as 0.042 < t < 0.21 (this is discounting precog). Counting precog, the Prior is made a bitch even quicker.

Happy chappy?

Except you're assuming that the Jedi's first action will be to go for a power they rarely use, instead of attacking his opponent with a lightsaber. How likely, assuming the Jedi doesn't know about the personal shield, is he to go straight to the TK?

Translation; 'But, but, that means I was wrooooooong!'

Get a kleenex and stop wasting bandwidth on the board with your own emotional insecurities.

Do I believe that the Jedi wouldn't engage the Prior is some kind of rhetorical banter? Try and reason with him? Try and convert him? Try not to kill him?

It is immaterial to the debate.

Furthermore, again, you're not addressing the fact that an average Jedi is not Mace Windu. Nor is an average Joe Jedi Yoda, or Anakin, or Obi-Wan. An average jedi's abilities are shown best by their preformance in the Arena in AotC. There is certainly some Telekinesis, but nothing on nearly the same level.

The OP mentioned Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and the 'average'. I've made an assumption on the average being generous, if you'd like to show why my assumption isn't right, then go ahead.

[Xon]

Yes, actually. I'd forgotten that one. I'm not sure it was thirty foot, and it certainly wasn't the same as the height involved. Which is of course, ignoring the contention that sauce for the goose (the commonly applied SDN argument that a Jedi can mush someone's brain) is sauce for the gander (in that Priors have demonstrated some flexibility in their powers) in which case, it again boils down to which one resorts to trying it first

If anything the Prior's TK powers are vastly more powerful and flexible than the Jedi's. A Jedi can spend hours removing a type of nanite from someone's bloodstream while in a deep trance (From an EU book), with the effected person still requiring recovery. The same incident also shows thier scanners suck ass at detecting hostile nanites and thier ability to deal with such diseases is downright limited. The Ancient super-plague would annihilated live in the Starwars galaxy.

A Prior can insta-heal someone with debilitating and life threatening illness and resurrect someone who just recently died, via micro-TK.

[Darksider]

IIRC, in both occurances of the Priors healing abilities, the staff did the blue-white glowy thing, so they may not have done it all themselves.

[Crown]

And I believe that Anubis Jnr was quoted as 'Prior minus the staff', which brings us back to point [2].

Which is of course, an unsupported supposition that wasn't even made by me. We don't know how Priors compare.

You're right. If memory serves it was stated by characters ON THE GOD DAMN SHOW which is why, I once again, I ask for others who have the episode handy to review what was said about Anubis Jnr.

Au contraire. Obi-Wan specifically felt 'the shroud lift' when facing Grevious in the begining, allowing him to once again feel the Force like he once did (10 odd years ago). This is specifically mentioned for 'close range' abilities (whatever they are supposed to be).

I have the page in front of me now. It then immediately talks about how he uses this lifting of the shroud to immerse himself in the force and be able to forsee better. It does not say he suddenly gained a host of abilities he'd lost. He regained the ability to feel the force fully and use its guidance. There is no contradiction here.

Mace Windu, AotC: Our ability to use the Force had diminished.

Your stupidity knows no bounds, the RotS novelisation does not (and can not) contradict the above. Absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense. All their abilities were diminished. And what, do you think, 'immerse himself' means? Don't you think that there would be a significant power up from this? The ease with which he could access it now, should provide a power up if nothing else.

Six months from his death bed, with the shroud still up and running? What crack are you smoking?

You know it was 'up and running?' We know that Yoda gained abilities in his exile, not least from the teachings of Qui-Gon Jinn.

Palpatine controlled the shroud. I never got the memo that he let it down, did you? Infact given his plans for the galaxy we can safely assume that he didn't.

Why? Why? Why? Why? etc, etc.

Are you familiar with the debating and logical fallacy of 'beggin the question'? If you are unfamiliar with its definition, you are quite good at it in practice.

It's not up to me to justify X Jedi's behaivour in Y situation every god damn time you moron. All I have to show is what a Jedi is capable of in the terms of this debate. No more, no less.

Stop embarrasing yourself.

Are you going to stop ignoring the fact that these examples you have are categorically not 'average jedi' but are largely Jedi Masters and Chosen Ones? The average Jedi is not all that impressive.

Post a proof of Near-Death Yoda being only 10 times more powerful than a Jedi Consular whose main job is in helping planetary governments hunt down lawbreakers.

The OP mentioned Yoda. I have fulfilled the requirement adequetly, I have made an assumption on average Jedi. If you feel that this isn't representative, go ahead and prove it asshole.