Would SC Marine's guns penetrate stormtrooper armor?

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes, it would. Do they actually have those guns? Aparrently not.

Proof?

See above. It would not neccesserily penetrate in the exact definition, but would have the same net effect. Dead stormtrooper.

Funny, I didnt see any numbers. I just saw you claiming that an "8mm hypervelocity bullet of unknown mass" would penetrate stormtrooper armor.

[Lt. Dan]

It may be just me but I thought "hypersonic" just ment faster then sound. Hell, they've got 22 long rifle rounds that can brake the sound barrier. If thats the case, many of todays could equal the 8mm round.

[Sea Skimmer]

It may be just me but I thought "hypersonic" just ment faster then sound. Hell, they've got 22 long rifle rounds that can brake the sound barrier. If thats the case, many of todays could equal the 8mm round.

Hypersonic is in excess of mach five, supersonic is anything above mach one.

[Lt. Dan]

Ok. But then I herd of something, or read it, that the SR-71 is considered a hypersonic aircraft.

[Sea Skimmer]

Ok. But then I herd of something, or read it, that the SR-71 is considered a hypersonic aircraft.

Lots of idiots write stuff about the military, that was one of them.

[SPOOFE]

But then I herd of something, or read it, that the SR-71 is considered a hypersonic aircraft.

Shh! People aren't supposed to know about that yet! Or the warp drive mounted on the Blackbird, for that matter...

Oh, shit, I said too much! Ahhh!! They're coming through the windows!!! Gah...!!

[NecronLord]

Funny, I didnt see any numbers. I just saw you claiming that an "8mm hypervelocity bullet of unknown mass" would penetrate stormtrooper armor.

It would certainly kill them through the armour, (Unless of course it has almost zero mass, which is rather unlikely) Which Is what I said in my first post.

[SPOOFE]

It would certainly kill them through the armour

Not according to the Brood War intro, which makes it quite clear that the SC marine guns have very low KE or momentum.

[NecronLord]

They obviously aren't "8mm hypervelocity bullets of unknown mass" then are they?

[Smiling Bandit]

Look, can't we just accept that Starcraft was made by people who had absolutely no idea what modern weaponry could do, let alone guns and powered military armor from centuries into the future?

[Singular Quartet]

Look, can't we just accept that Starcraft was made by people who had absolutely no idea what modern weaponry could do, let alone guns and powered military armor from centuries into the future?

Actually, that's the general belief. I mean, event here numbers for populations are screwy. Just look at the Zerg: They have, in total, less than 15,000,000 total.

[Mutant Headcrab]

Actually, that's the general belief. I mean, event here numbers for populations are screwy. Just look at the Zerg: They have, in total, less than 15,000,000 total.

Where did you get that number? Not arguing anything, just wondering where it came from.

[Singular Quartet]

Actually, that's the general belief. I mean, event here numbers for populations are screwy. Just look at the Zerg: They have, in total, less than 15,000,000 total.

Where did you get that number? Not arguing anything, just wondering where it came from.

SC manuel. States the numbers along with what the Broods are.

Numbers, from maneul (page 68 in mine)
Tiamat (Red) 6,500,000
Fenris (Green) 5,500
Baelrog (White) 6,000
Garm (Orange) 10,000
Jormungand (Purple) 3,000,000
Surtur (Blue) 2,600,000

Now that I think about it, however, this may only be the numbers that attackthe human colonies. I'll have a look through the fluff to check.

[Singular Quartet]

Damn lack oif Edit function: Just read thorugh the Fluff. It says that the Zerg were possibly over-extending themselves, but it seems mildly suspect. Here's the line that seems to say this to me:

Thus, the Zerg swarms slowly made their way towards the burgoning worlds of Humanity. The journey lasted sixty years, but eventually the massive, extended Zerg Swarm reached the outskirts of the Terran Sector of Koprulu.

This, depending on how you take the Semantics, says that they had massively extended themselves in their push to reach Humanity. Granted, they could have been leaving behind forces to consolidate the owrlds they left behind, since, after all, the Koprulu sector is right on the edge of Protoss space, and the Zerg knew they were going to face the Protoss eventaully. Unfortuantly, this is mostly speculation, and I've been known to be wrong in my logic about things.

[Connor MacLeod]

Funny, I didnt see any numbers. I just saw you claiming that an "8mm hypervelocity bullet of unknown mass" would penetrate stormtrooper armor.

It would certainly kill them through the armour, (Unless of course it has almost zero mass, which is rather unlikely) Which Is what I said in my first post.

I repeat. How are you making these conclusions without crunching numbers or providing a valid reason, exactly? Making a vague statement witout backing it up is just as good as stating your opinion.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

A word on stormtrooper armor:

In the Young Jedi Knight series where a spear was thrown at a stormtrooper from a droid arm.The spear imparted enough momentum to fling him back against a nearby wall, however, only a nick was made in the chest plate.

Now unless the Zergling weighs significantly more than a human does (several times more...), the power of the bullets is nothing next to the thrown spear where the recipient of the blow SURVIVED. Granted, he was knocked unconsious, but otherwise unharmed.

[NecronLord]

I repeat. How are you making these conclusions without crunching numbers or providing a valid reason, exactly? Making a vague statement witout backing it up is just as good as stating your opinion.

You mean you want to know why it would kill them?

Under most circumstances a human is unable to withstand the acelleration imparted by very high energy projectiles, even if the armour withstands the penetration, the effect of acellerating the person in the armour is to over stress things like heart ligaments and blood vessels. (you'll find a lot of drivel about hydrostatic shock out there, the real reason is due to damage of internal organs due to acelleration, rather than bull about turning them to mush.)

Given that Ewoks bashing them on the head knocked them out, there doesn't seem to be any inertial compensators in there to help them (though there probably would be in Crimson Guard, Spacetroopers and Dark Troopers) withstand impacts any better than they normally would.

Most real guns do not have this effect, as their impact energy is insufficient, however one with a muzzle velocity of <1.7 Km/s is likely to at the very least knock out a stormtrooper.

However, Given that Ewoks were capable of affecting Stormtroopers through their armour, I see no reason why a hypersonic projectile could not.

Not to mention a high probability that such uneven acelleration would snap the neck. (A given if it were to hit the head)

In summary, a Headshot would be almost garunteed to snap the neck, and a torso shot would have a chance of doing so, in addition to the effects of a physical impactor acting through the armour, which would have a high probability of causing severe internal damage. Shots to the limbs or groin would probably not be life threatening.

[SPOOFE]

They obviously aren't "8mm hypervelocity bullets of unknown mass" then are they?

Gimme a mass for the bullet and I'll tell you. The calibre and speed is completely irrelevent... canon material shows quite clearly that, assuming those two factors as presented by the manual to be correct, the bullets lack the mass to result in any significant kinetic energy.

Actually, that's the general belief. I mean, event here numbers for populations are screwy. Just look at the Zerg: They have, in total, less than 15,000,000 total.

Why is that too low? The manual also describes the Zerg as having very fast metabolism, enabling rapid growth and healing. "Fast metabolism" would also result in "shortened lifespan". "Shortened lifespan" would result in "smaller population".

[Seggybop]

I don't currently have the game installed so I can't check the exact amount, but I'm sure the Zerg casualty count in the UED Victory report was in the tens or hundreds of trillions. Whether to trust the UED is questionable, but I don't think they would inflate the numbers from millions to trillions without some base.

[Sea Skimmer]

SC manuel. States the numbers along with what the Broods are.

I guess you missed the part in which it also says that that represents only the Broods known to the Terran forces, while most Zerg where attacking the Protoss.

[SPOOFE]

I don't currently have the game installed so I can't check the exact amount, but I'm sure the Zerg casualty count in the UED Victory report was in the tens or hundreds of trillions. Whether to trust the UED is questionable, but I don't think they would inflate the numbers from millions to trillions without some base.

Well, if one REALLY wants to artificially inflate Zerg production rates, we can take this to mean that, in the course of a few months, the Zerg can make trillions of units, which, if we assume my "short life span" theory to be accurate, would die within a week or two...

But then, Sea Skimmer's explanation works equally well.

[Connor MacLeod]

You mean you want to know why it would kill them?

No, I mean provide your fucking analysis to prove this. I assume that you based your conclusion on some degree of comparative analysis, even though you have yet to specify an actual mass for the projectile in question (which is a key component in figuring kinetic energy and momentum)

Under most circumstances a human is unable to withstand the acelleration imparted by very high energy projectiles, even if the armour withstands the penetration, the effect of acellerating the person in the armour is to over stress things like heart ligaments and blood vessels. (you'll find a lot of drivel about hydrostatic shock out there, the real reason is due to damage of internal organs due to acelleration, rather than bull about turning them to mush.)

Hydrostatic shock is not the same thing as imparting lethal acceleration to a person. Hydrostatic shock is created when a bullet strikes the body (there are two kinds actually, detailed here: http://www.geocities.com/eqocg/day_with ... shock.html)

What you are describing is more akin to exceeding the human gee tolerances of the body by imparting a large degree of momentum (or the use of a large-momentum object like a boulder)

Given that Ewoks bashing them on the head knocked them out, there doesn't seem to be any inertial compensators in there to help them (though there probably would be in Crimson Guard, Spacetroopers and Dark Troopers) withstand impacts any better than they normally would.

Neither of which is relevant to a bullet penetrating ST armor, unless you are arguing the SC marine bullets have a far greater momentum than those rocks (in which case this brings us back to why you refuse to provide any sort of comparative analysis, which your statements suggest you have done.)

Most real guns do not have this effect, as their impact energy is insufficient, however one with a muzzle velocity of <1.7 Km/s is likely to at the very least knock out a stormtrooper.

Again, how you conclude this by only the velocity of the object is beyond me. I would have figured you would at least need to do a momentum comparison (since the momentum the projectile imparts to the stormtrooper will have a hand in accelerating him bodily.)

However, Given that Ewoks were capable of affecting Stormtroopers through their armour, I see no reason why a hypersonic projectile could not.

Wow, you compare dropping a large mass impactor to that of a small impactor - especially without doing any sort of momentum comparisons (not to mention assuming that you assume striking a stormtrooper with a bullet anyplace is going to be equal to dropping a rock on his head.)

Not to mention a high probability that such uneven acelleration would snap the neck. (A given if it were to hit the head)

Technically true if the projectile carries sufficient momentum, but irrelevant to penetration. (Again, this begs the question of how you can make these conclusiosn without making any sort of calculations.)

In summary, a Headshot would be almost garunteed to snap the neck, and a torso shot would have a chance of doing so, in addition to the effects of a physical impactor acting through the armour, which would have a high probability of causing severe internal damage. Shots to the limbs or groin would probably not be life threatening.

You didn't really crunch any numbers on this at all, did you? Making vague claims (especially when they have no relevance to the original topic) does not prove your point in the slightest.

[Darth Wong]

Your body is penetrated by trillions of high-velocity particles every second. They're called neutrinos, and they don't do jack squat to your body as they pass through.

You cannot establish or estimate damage by simply showing that a projectile has high velocity. In fact, an ultra-velocity projectile is likely to simply pass cleanly through you. In real firearms, a high-velocity armour-piercing bullet will actually do less damage to human tissue than a normal bullet.

[Sea Skimmer]

You cannot establish or estimate damage by simply showing that a projectile has high velocity. In fact, an ultra-velocity projectile is likely to simply pass cleanly through you. In real firearms, a high-velocity armour-piercing bullet will actually do less damage to human tissue than a normal bullet.

Yup, you need ammunition to wobble and preferably tumble to create a wipe damage path. Armor piercing ammo is highly stable and goes straight though, meaning that it doesn't deliver its full energy to the target.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Intro to brood war ghost is standing next to a marine, they are almost eye to eye. Remember the ghosts don't wear normal Powered Armour, they wear just light suit's...