Doom Star vs. Death Star

[Connor MacLeod]

The Quote Mike is referring to is from the EGW&T, the Superlaser entry, btw.

Moreover, we should note that the day-long recharge rate is for a "maximum power" shot - the Death Star can fire much weaker bursts (ones that can "crack" the crust of a planet/render it uninhabitable - more than enough firepower against a Doom Star, even ignoring the other turbolasers.) And that lower powered shots can be fired in much shorter periods of time.

[Murazor]

My, aren't we quite the capable troll? You arbitrarily indicate it is "several thousand kilometers" based on your subjective impressions. Guess we can't beat that, can we? (It should be noted that the Planet Defender can target vessels in high orbit - tens of thousands of kilometers at the very least. Capital weapons have *FAR* greater range than planetary weapons, and ion cannons are shorter-ranged than turbolasers.)

There is also the fact the Death Squadron was established in the TESB novel/Radio Drama as being capable of bombarding the planet from "outside the system" - even if we conservatively assume they only refer to the planetary system - this indicates ranges of many tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers, minimum. (And for a *clean* bombardment, no less.)

That is not the only evidencee for weapons ranges:

1.) Rebel Dream: The Lusankya demonstrates the ability to target objects the size of ground vehicles at distances of tens of thousands of kilometers (the Executor-class is in a geostationary orbit above the planet.) They are easily able to direct their fire in such a fashion that their own forces can be close enough and not be harmed by the same bombardment.)

2.) Rebel Stand: New Republic Capital ship targets a Yuuzhan Vong worldship in orbit around Coruscant from outside the planetary system. This is indicative of weapons ranges of many light seconds or light minutes, at a bare minimum.

3.) Showdown at Centerpoint: The Light Cruiser Intruder demonstrates the ability to target a small shuttle from tens of thousands of kilometers out (again, it was in geostationary orbit.)

4.) Destiny's Way: The Millenium Falcon could target Yuuzhan Vong fighters (moving at near-lightspeed) with both cannons and missiles from tens of thousands of kilometers away, at a minimum (odds suggest it is "much" more distant.)

5.) The Essential Gudie to Weapons & Technology: It states that targeing systems allow Imperial gunners to target vessels "at the edge of visual sighting distance" - For a Star Destrtoyer-size target, this is thousands of kilometers, but this is also *grossly* conservative, as Imperial Gunners incorporate macrobinocular viewplates (if not electrobinocular) visual enhancement to provide at least 100x magnification, thus the distance can be literally orders of magntiude more. For that matter, if one uses the Executor rather than a Star Destroyer, the range also goes up rather steeply (tens of thousands rather than thousands of kilometers.)

6.) Ambush at Corellia: Demonstrates weapons ranges from tens of thousands of kilometers up to a million kilometers.

7.) The Krytos Trap: Duel between the Lusankya and a Golan platform demonstrates weapons ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers (Golans are anywhere from mid to geostationary orbit, and the Lusankya had just bypassed the planetary shield.)

8.) The Last Command: Thrawn attacks Coruscant and is able to target vessels and objects in low orbit, even though he is *far* beyond the range of the ground weapons. At a minimum, this is again tens of thousands of kilometers - but it could easily be twice that if not more, as Thrawn is also at the outer edge of the effective weapons range of the Golan defense platforms and other defense ships.

9.) Star by Star: Ability to engage targets while moving at relatavistic velocities indicates weapons ranges of tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of kilometers, minimum.

Conclusion: Star Wars vessels can engage each other at ranges of thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers at a minimum, and can tarrget things millions of kilometers away (if not more, although this would generally imply a stationary/immobile target.)

All examples AND conclusions accepted, with the only observation that the target must be BIG (and a Doom Star falls in that category). It seemed that my memory was out for lunch, as I reduced geo stationary orbit in two orders of magnitude. However, now I have one doubt... has it been explained somewhere why in hell didn't the Alderaanians try to hit the Death Star if they knew that they were in the hit list?

[Murazor]

The Quote Mike is referring to is from the EGW&T, the Superlaser entry, btw.

Moreover, we should note that the day-long recharge rate is for a "maximum power" shot - the Death Star can fire much weaker bursts (ones that can "crack" the crust of a planet/render it uninhabitable - more than enough firepower against a Doom Star, even ignoring the other turbolasers.) And that lower powered shots can be fired in much shorter periods of time.

Those were the ones at Endor, weren't they? If so, until I see some proof of that planet-busting firepower (it heavily sounds Eclipse-like) I wont accept it as enough to destroy a Doom Star as a decent Doom Star can survive some shots of Stellar Converter.

[Murazor]

In fact, things didn't happen that way. We know that the Force has a very significative penalty in hyperspatial distances (New Jedi Order) and that may mean that Obi Wan was only able to detect the traces of the destruction when they get close enough.

Cite some evidence of this please.

Miko Regalia stated when talking to Dani Quee in the cell of the Vong complex at Helska 4 that Jedi can comunicate at hyperspatial distances with the Force but that he wasn't sure if he was going to be able to contact (Vector Prime). I can't quote it because my copies are in Spanish and I have no time for translations right now. However, the fact that a fully trained Jedi as Obi-wan used an hyperspatial comunicator to conect with the Jedi Council from Geonosis and not the Force (the same for the Emperor and Darth Vader) strongly suggests what I am saying.

Of course, one could also point out that deaths on a massive scale were immediately detected both when Kyp Durron destroyed Carida in "Champions of the Force", as well as the deaths Kueller caused in The New Rebellion, but why bother trying to be objective?

Don't know any of them out of Durron using some superweapon to destroy the planet. Would you mind to elaborate?

In fact, the time the Death Star had been there was enough to allow imperial scouts to reach Dantooine (a non-populated planet) in search of an Rebel base and as the rebels were unlikely to have a base near any imperial outpost, I would say that the Death Star had been sitting there for quite a time).

Of course, not knowing where Dantooine is sort of hampers your argument.

Not too far away from Dubrillion as the Rogue Squadron scorted the refugees fleeing the planet during the second Vong wave. It probably is somewhere in the Outer Rim.

Considering that they had to run by feet from the garbage tank to the hangar and that that probably meant several kilometers (it would be highly stupid to have the prisoners near eventual means of escape and Imperial design isn't usually so stupid)... Yeah. They were some time in the Death Star.

Considering there are other means of conveyance than simply walking, that is questionable. (It also assumes the Hangar, the detention area, and the garbage chute are somehow very distant from one another.) In short, yet more idle speculation on your part.

Means of conveyance that a prisoner shouldn't be able to operate. And yes, especulation, but not idle.

Plus the time that the Death Star needed to reach Yavin, that probably was also some MORE time.

The Death Star was "in range" of the moon the very minute they'd cleared the gas giant. Tarkin had already given the order to fire by the time the Death Star blew up. Didn't you even bother to watch the movie?

I mean the hyper travel from the debris of Alderaan (a core world) to Yavin (a world of the Rim) with a non very fast hyperspatial vehicle as the Death Star. Plus the time it took them to "clear" the gas giant. And yes, I watched the movie. And yes, I know that Yavin 4 was about to be atomized.

No... But if the modern carrier doesn't pick an eventual kamikaze bomber coming from behind, it is very bad designed and it is an indication of weakness and of clear limits for the accuracy of imperial sensors.

ROFLMAO. The Falcon approached the Avenger from head on - they *Did* detect it - until it skimmed the bridge and latched itself to the back of the command tower and shut off all its systems. How do you expect them to notice it, or expect to focus active scans there, exactly? Not expecting something is not evidence of "poor sensor quality." Your name wouldn't be Mueon neccesarily, would it?

We should also note that "Ambush at Corellia" establishes that the Engines interfere with aft sensor scans.

So there is a quite big blind spot there. By the way... didn't entering hyperspace generate waves of Cronau radiation? How did the imperials miss that?

Oh, and I suppose that some simple detector of big, dangerous and so things next to the ship would be enough... The nearest thing I have seen in Star Trek was that Bird of Prey that fired from behind the Enterprise to blame Kirk... and it was cloaked.

A plasma cannon won't blow a planetary colony armored with a dome made with the best materials used for military shipbuilding. An heavy turbolaser won't blow it either, considering that a direct hit hardly destroys an shielded figther.

Proof?

We should also note that DS turbolasers are at LEAST 200 GT per shot (Ref: AOTC ICS, which is above official sources anyhow.) Provide evidence that a Doom Star's guns can match that, when they can't render planets uninhabitable.

You are using and abusing of the engine limits...

The subspace teleporter has a range of about 40000 km. This will seriously prevent the Death Star to get the superlaser in the required position.

About hundreds of thousands, my problem is the part of "Death Star I has 10000 turbolasers and ion cannons" that given its spherical form means that it only can target the Doom Star with half of that weaponry at most.

Even assuming we treat the WEG evidence as 100% true (its questionable, since they typically do not match the canonical armament of an ISD, much less the size discrepancies.), thousands of turbolasers at hundreds of gigatons apiece will be more than enough to shred the Doom Star, given that it has no way in hell of penetrating the DS's own defenses (they consider chemical warheads to be effective weapons even at high tech levels, for chrissake! Or did you forget about the Merculite missiles, or the more powerful Zeon missiles?)

I mean that at most the Death Star can only bring half of its weaponry assuming total acuracy and perfect reaction times. And thanks to that little goodie known as time dilation device, they will probably be destroyed when the moment of retaliation arrives.
About the chemical thing. This only means that they have developed it beyond the knowledge of the Empire. Master of Orion (2) shows areas of knowledge beyond the understanding of Star Wars scientists: tractor beams and gravity singularities (probably the way the time dilation device works) are more efective.

Somebody suggested me a way to end this thread. Subspace teleport right in front of the Death Star. Win first strike with time dilation. Launch a black hole against the Death Star. Put the Death Star in an stasis bubble. Retreat and wait for the black hole to destroy the Death Star.

[Connor MacLeod]

Those were the ones at Endor, weren't they? If so, until I see some proof of that planet-busting firepower (it heavily sounds Eclipse-like) I wont accept it as enough to destroy a Doom Star as a decent Doom Star can survive some shots of Stellar Converter.

Nope. It's from both the EGW&T and the SWTJ - both explicitly referring to the Death Star 1. Try again.

[Connor MacLeod]

All examples AND conclusions accepted, with the only observation that the target must be BIG (and a Doom Star falls in that category). It seemed that my memory was out for lunch, as I reduced geo stationary orbit in two orders of magnitude. However, now I have one doubt... has it been explained somewhere why in hell didn't the Alderaanians try to hit the Death Star if they knew that they were in the hit list?

Er... what? The Alderaanian's didnt have any weapons available to hit the Death Star with. And even if they did, how would they damage/destroy it quickly enough to mak ea difference?

In any case, they didn't know, since it was simply Tarkin's decision in order to persuade Leia to be truthful.

[Connor MacLeod]

Miko Regalia stated when talking to Dani Quee in the cell of the Vong complex at Helska 4 that Jedi can comunicate at hyperspatial distances with the Force but that he wasn't sure if he was going to be able to contact (Vector Prime). I can't quote it because my copies are in Spanish and I have no time for translations right now.

I cannot find this statement in my copy of Vector Prime at all. The closest I can find is when Danni and Miko first meet, but it says nothing about "hyperspace." Page number/chapter?

In any case, holding a conversation an detecing an event are two completely different things.

However, the fact that a fully trained Jedi as Obi-wan used an hyperspatial comunicator to conect with the Jedi Council from Geonosis and not the Force (the same for the Emperor and Darth Vader) strongly suggests what I am saying.

No, it doesn't.

Don't know any of them out of Durron using some superweapon to destroy the planet. Would you mind to elaborate?

In Champions of the Force, Kyp Durron pilots teh Sun Crusher to Carida to rescue his brother, but destroys the system by causing the sun to supernova when the Caridians try to capture his ship. The deaths of the Caridans is felt all the way in the Yavin system the minute it happens.

In The New Rebellion, Kueller, a former Jedi student of Luke's, is using bomb-equipped droids to kill massive numbers of people, and using their deaths to supposedly augment his power. The deaths of those killed in such a method is again instantly detected by Luke and Leia.

Not too far away from Dubrillion as the Rogue Squadron scorted the refugees fleeing the planet during the second Vong wave. It probably is somewhere in the Outer Rim.

So? Travel to the Outer Rim can be made in hours, easily.

Furthermore, is there evidencee that the scout ships came from the Death Star, rather than Tarkin simply dispatching assets from another place? The Empire does have a navy for these purposes, after all (And if there was a Rebel base, they would sort of want to establish a blockade of the system, like they did with Yavin IV after the Battle of Yavin, and at Hoth, don't you think?)

Means of conveyance that a prisoner shouldn't be able to operate. And yes, especulation, but not idle.

Its idle speculation, and it does not contradict Mike in the slightest. Concession accepted.

I mean the hyper travel from the debris of Alderaan (a core world) to Yavin (a world of the Rim) with a non very fast hyperspatial vehicle as the Death Star. Plus the time it took them to "clear" the gas giant. And yes, I watched the movie. And yes, I know that Yavin 4 was about to be atomized.

Hyperspace travel can occur in hours. This isn't evidence of anything.

So there is a quite big blind spot there.

When the engines are active, yes. Its not really surprising, considering the sheer output of ion engines (Care to do estimates on the amount of energy required ot accelerate an ion stream to enough velocity that it can accelerate a ship by thousands of gravities?) I do like how you ignore the fact they have no reason to suspect it's trick, they would have a hard time detecting something flush up against the hull that is not emitting anything.

By the way... didn't entering hyperspace generate waves of Cronau radiation? How did the imperials miss that?

Did you miss the fact they were in the process of reflexively ducking away because they thought the Falcon was goign to ram them? How concerned are you goign to be about monitoring your systems when your life is threatened? Anyhow, hyperspacec travel was considered one of the only possibilities they could have done.

Oh, and I suppose that some simple detector of big, dangerous and so things next to the ship would be enough... The nearest thing I have seen in Star Trek was that Bird of Prey that fired from behind the Enterprise to blame Kirk... and it was cloaked.

And this nonsensica crap is relevant how?

You are using and abusing of the engine limits...

WTF? We're talking about guns, idiot. And you have yet to provide evidence to substantiate your claim or refute my evidence.

The subspace teleporter has a range of about 40000 km. This will seriously prevent the Death Star to get the superlaser in the required position.

Good thing the Death Star can fire its superlaser and other weapons from more than 40,000 km away then.

I mean that at most the Death Star can only bring half of its weaponry assuming total acuracy and perfect reaction times.

Which is more than sufficient to blow away the Doom Star, especially since the Doom Star cannot generate the 3e31 joules of kinetic energy that is the low end for the DS shields (or rather, for part of its facing.)

And thanks to that little goodie known as time dilation device, they will probably be destroyed when the moment of retaliation arrives.

How? The Doom Star has no way of damaging, much less destroying, the Death Star.

And what the fuck does time dilation have to do with it?

About the chemical thing. This only means that they have developed it beyond the knowledge of the Empire. Master of Orion (2) shows areas of knowledge beyond the understanding of Star Wars scientists: tractor beams and gravity singularities (probably the way the time dilation device works) are more efective.

You can only get so much energy from a chemical explosion, dumbass. Chemical reactions are inferior to nuclear ones. You can't get around this without ignoring basic science.

Somebody suggested me a way to end this thread. Subspace teleport right in front of the Death Star. Win first strike with time dilation.

How the hell does Time Dilation guarantee victory, even if we ignore the obvious fact the Doom Star cannot penetrate the DS's shields.

Launch a black hole against the Death Star. Put the Death Star in an stasis bubble. Retreat and wait for the black hole to destroy the Death Star.

Sorry, its not a real black hole. The BHG tactic has been discussed exhaustively, and it isn't any more effective now than it was then.

[Connor MacLeod]

If so, until I see some proof of that planet-busting firepower (it heavily sounds Eclipse-like) I wont accept it as enough to destroy a Doom Star as a decent Doom Star can survive some shots of Stellar Converter.

Stellar Converters are not nearly as powerful as you think they are. They may optimistically crack a planet's crust, but that's something you can do with an Eclipse-class Star Destroyer, much less a low powered DS shot. And even this is questionable, since the debris does not even achieve escape velocity or even appear to remotely "Scatter" - it just forms some sorrt of silly asteroid field, which strongly suggests a technobabble process at work. (The fact it is reversible also indicates this.)