The pickups don't really need highways and can cut across the desert, but they would be easier targets for IDF helicopters or planes. Also these terrorists may have been smuggling the heavier weapons in from Syria using the highways; destroying the roads may slow them down but they could use other means to smuggle weapons in and Stas Bush did mention that they were firing the rockets in derelict buildings.
The only difficulty is getting the rockets to the buildings. You canuse trucks to transport them overland, but being an avid off road driver myself, there's just some terrain no regular trucks can handle. Those responsible could move the weapons by foot or pack mule, but this drastically increases their chance of detection. Smuggling some small arms and light anti tank weapons would be comparitively easy with no roads, but the heavy stuff depends on road, rail, and air for trans port.
I support Isreal's road destruction plans...but I think they could keep some intact and post checkpoints (granted a much more hazardous alternative).
Darth Mortis wrote:Just a question, what happens if Hezbollah takes Canadian, European, and American hostages in a fit of despair, meaning, they know they can't win. It's not without merit.
The US, EU, and Canada go in to free them, as well as punishing Hezbollah militarily. The problem with taking hostages is that though you can threaten to kill them, you can't actually kill them, because once you kill them, you have no more bargaining power and you've pissed off the people you're trying to control.
The operating word is them, so one can threaten a portion of the hostages, and execute that threat, without compromising position.
so one can threaten a portion of the hostages, and execute that threat, without compromising position
No; if you kill a significant portion of hostages, the reliability of you as a hostage-taker is undermined to the extent of "waste this subhuman shithead" real quick.
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so one can threaten a portion of the hostages, and execute that threat, without compromising position
No; if you kill a significant portion of hostages, the reliability of you as a hostage-taker is undermined to the extent of "waste this subhuman shithead" real quick.
So what?
Do these shitheads care if they get wasted? No.
What then, is an acceptable number of hostages to be sacrificed so that some can be saved?
The only thing that trumps the hostage taker in this case is making demands that are beyond the scope of the operation he's carried out, ie: I'll behead these contractors if you don't pull out of the middle east.
Otherwise, if he says, satisfy demand A or B dies, then C, D, E and F, you give him A. Each new hostage is a chance to make new demands, while demonstrating your will to carry out your threats on the remainder.
What then, is an acceptable number of hostages to be sacrificed so that some can be saved?
Even shooting a single hostage makes you an extremely "non grata" person for any kind of negotiations. The "no negotiations with terrorists" policy comes into play immediately. And it is a heavy card.
I'll behead these contractors if you don't pull out of the middle east.
That's the most common type of demands.
Otherwise, if he says, satisfy demand A or B dies, then C, D, E and F, you give him A.
If he really kills A, the policy of "non-negotiation with terrorists" may prevail over the preservation of the hostages.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
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Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
What then, is an acceptable number of hostages to be sacrificed so that some can be saved?
Even shooting a single hostage makes you an extremely "non grata" person for any kind of negotiations. The "no negotiations with terrorists" policy comes into play immediately. And it is a heavy card.
It also puts you on at least 20 of the 24 hour news cycle.
Stas Bush wrote:
I'll behead these contractors if you don't pull out of the middle east.
That's the most common type of demands.
Ergo, why I placed the caveat in my argument for hostage takers making demands out of proportion to the operations they've pulled off, and the observed tendancies of their targets.
Stas Bush wrote:
Otherwise, if he says, satisfy demand A or B dies, then C, D, E and F, you give him A.
If he really kills A, the policy of "non-negotiation with terrorists" may prevail over the preservation of the hostages.
So? Maybe it does and maybe it dosen't. If it does, he makes new demands, but threatening B. If not, everybody gets wasted and the hostage takers die and are transported instantly to Paradise. Liberal Democracies must then explain to their populations why those hostages were expendable.
The point is, multiple hostages offer a shit load more options to the hostage taker and a number of new headaches to any potential rescue, therefore, taking more hostages is preferable to fewer or 1.
It also puts you on at least 20 of the 24 hour news cycle.
Generally, as a subhuman no-holds-barred idiot who is scheduled to die.
Liberal Democracies must then explain to their populations why those hostages were expendable.
People pretty damn well understand the problem of negotiation with terrorists. Nearly everyone would say that the effect would be "talk to them once, and see them threatening you all the time, because they'll see negotiation as a precedent".
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Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
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It also puts you on at least 20 of the 24 hour news cycle.
Generally, as a subhuman no-holds-barred idiot who is scheduled to die.
Like they don't know this? Bluster is fine and dandy, but getting killed has been factored into the plan, you see, thats why they have the hostages with guns in their ears. So that dosen't happen.
Stas Bush wrote:
Liberal Democracies must then explain to their populations why those hostages were expendable.
People pretty damn well understand the problem of negotiation with terrorists. Nearly everyone would say that the effect would be "talk to them once, and see them threatening you all the time, because they'll see negotiation as a precedent".
See, the thing with taking multiple hostages, the point I raised, is stonewalling becomes inffective when you send Al-Jazeera a video of somebody getting their head sawed off, followed by their parents screaming on CNN.
Though it should be a courtesy as to why I'm addressing this rather blatant Ad Populum.
MKSheppard wrote:And this won't end until Israel kills everyone. That "withdraw at the end of the week" went out the window.
Just a question, what happens if Hezbollah takes Canadian, European, and American hostages in a fit of despair, meaning, they know they can't win. It's not without merit.
Potentially? WWIII
More likely - international coalition to go in and take the hostages back and kick Hezbollah ass.
Kindly remember that the US has no love for Hezbollah, as they were the ones who killed something like 240+ US Marines in a single attack back in the 1980's. The notion that these are some poor, amateur guerillas should be dispensed with - given their armament and resources they are extremely effective in taking on a foe far better equipped than they are.
Last edited by Broomstick on 2006-07-19 08:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Big Orange wrote:Although the Israel air force could cause far more death and destruction, if they were less selective in their targets and not allowing the local civilians to evacuate, they are still using a sledge hammer to crack a wall nut. With all the roads, railway lines and bridges smashed, would that put a stop to a underground militia movement? Real terrorists don't really need roads, railway lines, and bridges to move their men and weapons
Sure, they can still move shit - but without modern roads and transporation it takes a hell of a lot longer to do it. It slows them down, which makes them easier to locate and kill
Osama Bin Laden was living in dusty caves with no running water and his men in civilian gear still carried out the spectacularly successful 9/11 attacks with no real support.
Oh, yeah? How about the money needed for flight training as well as food and housing to live in the US? That was no small form of support.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
The IDF have dropped bombs on central Beirut for the first time. Target was a bunker supposedly used by the Hizbos.
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CJvR wrote:The IDF have dropped bombs on central Beirut for the first time. Target was a bunker supposedly used by the Hizbos.
Yeah, TV's saying they dropped 23 tons worth of explosives on that bunker, thinking the Hizbo head-shed was there.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
The Lebanese prime minister has called for an immediate ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah militants, saying his country "has been torn to shreds".
Fouad Siniora said more than 300 people had been killed and 500,000 others displaced in a week of Israeli attacks.
Israel says it carried out 80 air strikes in Lebanon in the early hours of Thursday morning.
It said it bombed a bunker housing top Hezbollah leaders in Beirut, but Hezbollah said it suffered no losses.
Israel said a wave of aircraft dropped 23 tonnes of explosives on a bunker in the south of Beirut where senior Hezbollah figures, possibly including leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, were believed to hiding.
But Hezbollah issued a statement saying the building targeted was a mosque under construction and "no Hezbollah leaders or personnel were killed in the strike".
Twenty-nine Israelis have died - including 15 civilians killed by rocket attacks - since the Israeli offensive against Hezbollah militants began eight days ago.
On Wednesday, two children were killed in Nazareth by Hezbollah rockets.
I honestly didn't realize it was that bad; this is yet another humanitarian crisis in the makings.
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Broomstick wrote:
Sure, they can still move shit - but without modern roads and transporation it takes a hell of a lot longer to do it. It slows them down, which makes them easier to locate and kill.
I can see some logic in that but they've also bombed the Palestinians back into the stone age and they're still fighting. And how are they going to bring humanitarian aid into Lebanon (unless the IDF builds military bridges)?
Oh, yeah? How about the money needed for flight training as well as food and housing to live in the US? That was no small form of support.
That was financial support and did the US Air Force start levelling all the airports and flying schools throughout North America following 9/11? And the Al-Qaeda men only needed carpenter tools to seize the planes. And Afghanistan has zero recruitment in comparison to Lebanon, plus most of Al-Qaeda's funding and recruitment was based in Saudi-Arabia - was the US Air Force bombing Saudi Arabia following 9/11?
Broomstick wrote:
Oh, yeah? How about the money needed for flight training as well as food and housing to live in the US? That was no small form of support.
That was financial support and did the US Air Force start levelling all the airports and flying schools throughout North America following 9/11?
No - but airports were closed to all but the airlines and emergency flights for a week, and the flight schools closed for even longer. A couple of airlines started running into problems with staffing cockpits because their pilots couldn't get the required recurrency training and were grounded. There were serious proposals to arrest all connected to the flight schools the terrorists used and prosecute them, to close all flight schools permanently (which leaves the question of where the hell you get new pilots from - I guess the folks proposing that thought we could outsource that to Bangalore, too), and to do away with all flying outside the military and passenger airlines (something FedEx, UPS, DHL, et al were, understandably, against). The US lost about 1/4 to 1/3 of its flight schools as a result of the restrictions and fallout from 9/11, so don't think there weren't consequences. That's a lot of innocent people who lost jobs or even businesses/careers. No one used bombs, but general aviation sure was penalized for 9/11.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Admiral Johnason wrote:US marines have just entered Beriut to aid in the evac of Americans. It was just on CNN International.
That's a choice assignment for the Jarheads. I hope they have live ammo unlike their counterparts in '83, and have air cover unlike the Liberty in '67.
Admiral Johnason wrote:US marines have just entered Beriut to aid in the evac of Americans. It was just on CNN International.
That's a choice assignment for the Jarheads. I hope they have live ammo unlike their counterparts in '83, and have air cover unlike the Liberty in '67.
MSNBC has been running some video of US Marines and Lebanese military helping people get on a landing craft. Some of the Lebanese were actually assisting people to and aboard the landing craft along with the Marines, carrying children and strollers, etc. Others were standing guard nearby on hills.
Something about video was really heartening to see, amidst all the madness, Lebanese and Americans working together as professionals.
Admiral Johnason wrote:US marines have just entered Beriut to aid in the evac of Americans. It was just on CNN International.
That's a choice assignment for the Jarheads. I hope they have live ammo unlike their counterparts in '83, and have air cover unlike the Liberty in '67.
MSNBC has been running some video of US Marines and Lebanese military helping people get on a landing craft. Some of the Lebanese were actually assisting people to and aboard the landing craft along with the Marines, carrying children and strollers, etc. Others were standing guard nearby on hills.
Something about video was really heartening to see, amidst all the madness, Lebanese and Americans working together as professionals.
I wonder how this will effect the Israelis. I mean, seeing the US marines working with the troops of the nation that they have invaded must be kinda disheartening to them.
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Admiral Johnason wrote:
I wonder how this will effect the Israelis. I mean, seeing the US marines working with the troops of the nation that they have invaded must be kinda disheartening to them.
The marines in Leboanon, on the coast, the Lebanese troops are helping evactuate American civilians.
What, are you suggesting the Israeli's will be angrey that American civilians are escaping the war zone? Dang not going to get to kill me a yank?
Come on now, just fourty Marines on the Lebanese coast evacuating American's civilians, I'm pretty sure the Israelie troops are just glad there are less foriegn civilians in Lebondon.
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
I think the Israelis might get upset if they saw Hezbollah working with the US Marines, but they have been at pains to draw a distinction between Hezbollah and the rest of Lebanon. (Well, verbally at least).
Even if they were upset - so what? If you want to get your civilians out of enemy territory sometimes you have to deal with the enemy. The Israelis are smart enough to understand that.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Admiral Johnason wrote:
I wonder how this will effect the Israelis. I mean, seeing the US marines working with the troops of the nation that they have invaded must be kinda disheartening to them.
The marines in Leboanon, on the coast, the Lebanese troops are helping evactuate American civilians.
What, are you suggesting the Israeli's will be angrey that American civilians are escaping the war zone? Dang not going to get to kill me a yank?
Come on now, just fourty Marines on the Lebanese coast evacuating American's civilians, I'm pretty sure the Israelie troops are just glad there are less foriegn civilians in Lebondon.
I meant the image of US troops working with the Lebanese, not the evac of Americans and foreign nationals.
Liberals for Nixon in 3000: Nixon... with carisma and a shiny robot body.
never negoiate out of fear, but never fear to negoiate.
Captian America- Justice League
HAB submarine commander-
"We'll break you of your fear of water."
