Building the SD.Net Bunker (RAR)

[salm]

Ah, ok. I didn´t mean to put 50 or so tubes into one room but i can see how the image might suggest that. Actually i meant to integrate them into the floorplan Broomstick posted. One of these Dorms has 12 IIRC. You could make two to four rooms with the tubes, so everybody gets a very high amount of privacy inside the tubes, a high amount of privacy in the rooms, and semi pivacy in the living room.

With the tubes you can put more people together in one room because of added tube privacy.


There´s also this kind of stuff:

[PeZook]

Yeah, I can see how tubes would allow you to save some more space by spacing the sleeping places closer together without losing privacy. Could translate to big savings over a thousand beds if done right.

Space that could be used for more open public areas, which are always a boon for ANY city (make no mistake, we ARE designing a city here).

[Broomstick]

Is there a reason you couldn´t give people private place else where?

If you have to save space you´ll have to compromise. Personally i find the tubes advantages outweight their disadvantages.

Obviously, you have no issues with claustrophobia. I could name a half dozen people in my life who'd have serious psychological problems sleeping in such a confined space. Submarine crews are selected for tolerance to enclosed spaces, the group we will have will not be.

While many people could tolerate such tubes there are many who could not. Unless we want to heavily sedate them prior to them going to bed each night. Such tubes are also going to be well-nigh impossible to get into and out of for people with mobility issues. While most of our demographic are young males 20-30 years of age not all of them are, and over 10 years fewer will be due to normal aging and accidents.

ETA: corrected spelling - gah! posting before morning caffeine bad for spelling....

[PeZook]

With Salm's proposal we could simply have the "tubes" be beds with optional enclosures. to increase privacy, much like hi-tech curtains that don't let noise or farts through.

[salm]

How are disabled people an issue in this regard? We make exceptions for disabled people all the time and build special facilities for them all the time. Just because there would be a need to install a certain amount of beds for the disabled doesn´t mean that the rest can´t be made differently.

[Broomstick]

You could add a sliding component to the beds I designed, like what you have on a roll-top desk, to grant that privacy effect.

The "resource furniture" is interesting, but I am concerned with anything with moving parts. Remember, it's going to have to endure constant use for at least 10 years, we can't go out and buy another when ones breaks. Either we fix it or it stays broke.

Re: kitchens - I already mentioned we'll have larger public dining areas, but people will want an area for snacks, quick meals, special occasions, and parties. When not used as a kitchen it's another public gathering area.

Yes, cleanliness/territory will be an issue. It's going to be an issue no matter what we do. Zixinus's suggestions regarding small group governance, Lonestar's health and safety inspections, and security cameras in the Bunker will help with that without cutting down on peoples' options. If people know they can't get away with being total pigs, that their local peers will know who left a mess, and if the worst offenders can be assigned clean-up duties it will drastically cut down on offenses.

That, and in such an environment everyone it going to get to take a turn at cleaning duties. That's why I said no exceptions to such work - everyone has to put some time in at maintaining the place, and that includes cleaning. Those who clean are less inclined to create a mess.

That, and the "health and safety officer" or "dorm overseer" or whatever we're calling that person should do a regular refrigerator clean-out. At my last corporate job we had two refrigerators in the floor break rooms, shared by 40-50 people (for lunches, and not everyone brought lunch) and once a month, without exception, they were cleaned out. The darn things were cleaner than most refrigerators I've seen in private homes. This is doable long term, especially with groups of 20 or fewer with a few simple rules that are actually enforced.

As for stocking shelves - whoever is assigned "dorm maintenance" as their grunt work that month (or whatever duration we decide on) would inventory and keep basics stocked but if someone wants something outside the list of basics they would be responsible for keeping their supplies on hand.

[salm]

Re: kitchens - I already mentioned we'll have larger public dining areas, but people will want an area for snacks, quick meals, special occasions, and parties. When not used as a kitchen it's another public gathering area.

Why would you have to wall off the kitchen for that?

[Broomstick]

How are disabled people an issue in this regard? We make exceptions for disabled people all the time and build special facilities for them all the time. Just because there would be a need to install a certain amount of beds for the disabled doesn´t mean that the rest can´t be made differently.

Are you going to build most of the facility without regard for them, so that they are confined to a small accessible area and are therefore even more restricted than the rest of us? Or are you going to give access to as much of the space as possible?

We have people with on this board with mobility issues ranging from limps to walking frames to wheelchairs, vision problems, deafness, arthritis, debilitating illness right now. Some of us have spouses with such issues. They don't talk about it constantly, but are we going to leave them out, or have them confined to just a small section?

On top of that - by the hypothetical end of our decade in the Bunker, given the timeline, I'll be nearly 70, an old lady, lord knows how well I'll be moving by then, and I'm not the oldest person on this board. We'll have limited medical facilities, and injuries - which will be inevitable - will be more likely to be disabling. Are you positive you won't be among the injured, ever?

It's not enough to design for the number of disabled we have now - we will acquire more. Of course, we'll lose a few, too (someone already mentioned provisions for dealing with the deceased) but as time goes on we'll have more, not fewer.

If we build in a salt mine (which we seem to be leaning towards) horizontal space won't be as much an issue as (possibly) vertical space or the building materials to make the living quarters. If we were digging the hole ourselves then yes, it would be more a concern.

While it's fine to compare our ideas to military barracks or submarines or space stations or whatever you have to remember that those environments get to screen their residents prior to move in. People with physical issues are screened out. Those with claustrophobia are screened out. We will not have that luxury, we have to deal with the 1,000 people we are dealt, with all their foibles and problems.

[salm]

Of course disabled people should be regarded. That does in no way mean, that all installations have to be accessible for them. The vast majority of beds doesn´t need to be acessible to disabled people. You put bunk beds into your design. Are the top ones acessible to your 70 year old self? I kind of doubt it.

I´m not comparing this to military barracks either. Quite the opposite actually. I think this should (partially) be regarded as an exersice in comming up with creative stuff to minimize space requirements for long term living spaces. Or else we could just settle for one of the hundered tried and true standard dorms and move on.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I like it. You could even have indirect lighting in the vaults to simulate day and night so you don't develop a corridor culture. Have the lights turn on every day at 'sunrise', and you can even vary day length according to season.

Thanks for that... And "Day/night" lightning cycles is something I hope to have added throughout the vault in general as often as possible. Mimicking the day-night cycle wherever we can will go a long way to help alleviating a sense of underground claustrophobia.

Which goes back to Salm's ideas. The video he posted is actually VERY innovative. There are a lot of ideas in that youtube clip I would happily incorporate into Pod's elsewhere in the vault. The mult-use furniture is something that would be immensely helpful. But, on the "honeycomb living". Large space elsewhere or no, If I had to sleep every night for 10 years in a tiny pod like that I'd go nuts. However spacious they 'seem' they are still 'psychologically' tiny. When I sleep, I toss, turn, flail about and move. If I slept a night in one of those as opposed to a normal bed, I'd end up injuring myself.

It doesn't mean it is a totally bad idea. All ideas have uses. We could indeed have SOME parts of a Vault utilize tube dorms for those that want it. The important thing to remember in the design process is to not adopt an "Either or" approach.

[Broomstick]

Re: kitchens - I already mentioned we'll have larger public dining areas, but people will want an area for snacks, quick meals, special occasions, and parties. When not used as a kitchen it's another public gathering area.

Why would you have to wall off the kitchen for that?

Why not?

It also gives the dorm two gathering rooms, so you could have two things going on simultaneously with minimal interference. Or I suppose you could have a sliding/folding barrier between them, but then that gets back to concerns about moving parts.

There is the potential for some remodeling - different color schemes, for instance. If the wall between kitchen and common area contains no plumbing or wiring it would be relatively simple to remove it if the dorm group decided they wanted a larger, combined area, particularly if we design it that way. Not all walls have to be structural.

I've lived in situations where the kitchen/common area were combined and where they were divided - my personal preference is towards separate rooms, and yes, some of my preferences do show up in my designs. If folks want something different we could have a go at such a design. Likewise, I've lived where small dorm kitchens were an option and others had no provisions for cooking, and guess which I prefer myself? But if a group doesn't want to cook at all, well, they don't have to use the appliances at all, do they? I suppose they could even pull them out if they really wanted, and the appliances could be put into storage.

Consider the bathing areas - if you had a dorm that really was all guys and they wanted to remove the "make up and hair area" and replace it with urinals I suppose they could. Such a swap out isn't that involved especially if the details of the plumbing are accessible and designed with the idea that fixtures might need replacing. We'll certainly need things like a few extra sinks and toilets because over 10 years shit happens (in my construction work I've had to replace two toilets over the past year and half due to cracks/fractures - those were toilets in private residences, not group living situations or public bathrooms which tend to take more abuse). At some point some drunken asshole or other jerk is going to vandalism something. Sure, we'll punish the guilty but we'll still need to fix/replace what's busted

If folks want, I could come up with variations on a basic design, things that could be modified within pre-fab module. None of this is carved in stone, just in pixels.

[PeZook]

Man...somebody managed to crack a toilet?

I am sorely tempted to insert a joke about fat Americans

[Zaune]

With Salm's proposal we could simply have the "tubes" be beds with optional enclosures. to increase privacy, much like hi-tech curtains that don't let noise or farts through.

Now there's an idea. I'll have to hunt for a picture, but I saw a concept design for either a long-distance train or an airliner with first-class accommodation that consisted of a seat that folded down into a bed, a desk that folded up against the wall and a sliding privacy screen. Doing something like that could provide extra privacy whenever it was needed and add to the amount of communal space we had available during the day; a couple of extra chairs and a folding table could turn it into a reasonable day-room. Moving parts would obviously be a maintenance issue, but a fairly small one relative to most other aspects of this project and probably something that could be dealt with by Housekeeping.

And regarding special disabled quarters, the problem with that is that it will greatly limit the ability to relocate a disabled resident who doesn't get along with their neighbours, or an able-bodied one who's been temporarily incapacitated. Imagine trying to get into one of those tubes with your arm in a sling!

[Broomstick]

Of course disabled people should be regarded. That does in no way mean, that all installations have to be accessible for them. The vast majority of beds doesn´t need to be acessible to disabled people. You put bunk beds into your design. Are the top ones acessible to your 70 year old self? I kind of doubt it.

I could use the bottom bunk. So at a minimum half the beds would be usable by my 70 year old self. The less dense housing all has low-level beds.

I´m not comparing this to military barracks either. Quite the opposite actually. I think this should (partially) be regarded as an exersice in comming up with creative stuff to minimize space requirements for long term living spaces. Or else we could just settle for one of the hundered tried and true standard dorms and move on.

Sure, but I think you're underestimating the number of negative reactions to the sleeping tubes.

The other thing is that I've been sleeping with my spouse for 20 years and intend to continue to do so - do those tubes come in queen size? Yes, I realize so far all I've shown are single beds - I'll come up with something for the married set.

I do think the tubes would have merit where people need to be "on call" 24/7 at least part of the time. The medical wing, for instance, might have one or two so staff needing to stay at the location to take care of patients have a place to catch a nap.

[Broomstick]

Man...somebody managed to crack a toilet?

I am sorely tempted to insert a joke about fat Americans

One instance involved a tornado using a tree to spear the house. The trunk went through the roof and hit the toilet tank on the way towards impacting the floor.

We do get very interesting weather around here.

But yeah, the other one was a fatso.

[PeZook]

But yeah, the other one was a fatso.

...

I didn't expect that to actually be the case, you know

I figured power tool accidents or falling objects. Jesus, people!

Anyway, back on topic: standard beds have one more distinct advantage, that of being easily moveable with minimal disassembly.

I wouldn't worry about moving parts too much: foldable furniture can be made well enough to last for decades.We'd be getting most of our furniture custom-made, anyway ; Just order things that are sturdy and made out of simple materials like wood and wrought iron.

[salm]

Re: kitchens - I already mentioned we'll have larger public dining areas, but people will want an area for snacks, quick meals, special occasions, and parties. When not used as a kitchen it's another public gathering area.

Why would you have to wall off the kitchen for that?

Why not?

It also gives the dorm two gathering rooms, so you could have two things going on simultaneously with minimal interference. Or I suppose you could have a sliding/folding barrier between them, but then that gets back to concerns about moving parts.

Walls take up space.
Also, space is allready very limited and therefore the whole environment will be quite claustrophobic. I´d try to use the little space we have to make the place appear as large as possible. One larger room appears larger than two smaller ones.

Customizable barriers don´t necessarily need complicated moving parts. You could just put small wheels on furniture like shelves to wall off certrain areas when needed or to divide one large room into two small ones.

I've lived in situations where the kitchen/common area were combined and where they were divided - my personal preference is towards separate rooms, and yes, some of my preferences do show up in my designs. If folks want something different we could have a go at such a design. Likewise, I've lived where small dorm kitchens were an option and others had no provisions for cooking, and guess which I prefer myself? But if a group doesn't want to cook at all, well, they don't have to use the appliances at all, do they? I suppose they could even pull them out if they really wanted, and the appliances could be put into storage.

That´s pretty much what i´d try to achieve if i designed a place like that. Easily customizable places which the residents can change to their demands.

Consider the bathing areas - if you had a dorm that really was all guys and they wanted to remove the "make up and hair area" and replace it with urinals I suppose they could. Such a swap out isn't that involved especially if the details of the plumbing are accessible and designed with the idea that fixtures might need replacing. We'll certainly need things like a few extra sinks and toilets because over 10 years shit happens (in my construction work I've had to replace two toilets over the past year and half due to cracks/fractures - those were toilets in private residences, not group living situations or public bathrooms which tend to take more abuse). At some point some drunken asshole or other jerk is going to vandalism something. Sure, we'll punish the guilty but we'll still need to fix/replace what's busted

If folks want, I could come up with variations on a basic design, things that could be modified within pre-fab module. None of this is carved in stone, just in pixels.

I think the most reasonable step would be to first define the requirements of the place. Things like: how critical is space? How important is equality? Are there going to be windows or can we completely disregard that?

[Broomstick]

Even if it's entirely underground we can still have windows - for example, opening up from living areas to the big corridors with lighting that imitates the day/night cycle and perhaps have some plantings. But yeah, the idea was underground living.

There was some mention made of above-ground structures, those would definitely have windows of some sort.

[salm]

I could use the bottom bunk. So at a minimum half the beds would be usable by my 70 year old self. The less dense housing all has low-level beds.

So you have a certain amount of beds accessible to disabled people and certain amount that isn´t. Why would that be a problem with the use of tubes?

Sure, but I think you're underestimating the number of negative reactions to the sleeping tubes.

Maybe. Maybe not. We don´t have that many reactions so it´s hard to tell.
Looking up the numbers on claustrophobia it appears that 14% of people are not able to lie in an MRT tube for a medical check. If this holds up to private sleeping tubes as well it would be nonsense to install them.
However, the basic idea of having the possiblitly of sealing off your bed from noise, light and farts still holds.

The other thing is that I've been sleeping with my spouse for 20 years and intend to continue to do so - do those tubes come in queen size?

Sure, why not?

I do think the tubes would have merit where people need to be "on call" 24/7 at least part of the time. The medical wing, for instance, might have one or two so staff needing to stay at the location to take care of patients have a place to catch a nap.

Eh, if they´re just going to be used in very special locations the amount of space saved won´t be large enough to justify them. The advanteges of these things come with numbers.

[salm]

Lots of space can be saved by using systems like the following. You could get rid of allmost the entire storage and washing room or at least reduce it to a minimum.



Combine that with parts of the floor that let you pull up a table to about knee height and you don´t need any chairs anymore and can use the space where the table is as floor when retracted. A bit like in the following video that demonstrates student appartements in less than 7 m² (75 square feet). Apparently they were recieved half ways decently but it would be definately too small for 10 years.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Ok... I feel the need to step in here. While I appreciate and approve of Salm's attempt to conserve space here, indeed many of his ideas have merit and could be useful (changeable furniture and such). I would like to come in with a few numbers that would state that, well, we don't NEED to save that much space.

1: The total population we are saving is 1000+. Depending on how we split up our resources, that may work out to 500 to 250 per Bunker.

2: Currently the space we are looking at is a Salt mine of some sort in the VA or WV area. An example was given earlier of "Site-R" in the Raven Rock mountain. Site R is by no means an extra special salt mine. Indeed there are ones larger.

3: From a gov website HERE the "useful" space for Site-R is

The "footprint" is nearly 260,000 square feet with total usable floor space of 700,000 square feet.

. 700,000 useful cubic feet of floorspace. Now even if we put all 1000 people in a single site, that would work out to 700cubic feet PER PERSON.

Even at a smaller site, we have plenty of space to open up for rooms.

[Zixinus]

Saving space also should have limits: those sleeping pod-beds actually look horrific for some. Like me.

What we should be looking in saving space isn't saving space overall but maximizing the utility of used space.

[salm]

@Crossroads Inc:
Hmm... ok. That´s a point.
So are there any interesting architectural points to solve or is this just going to be a "lets build a gigantic subterranian housing complex the size of a small town?
If that´s the case the residential areas can be copied from pretty much any hotel or housing complex and the case can be closed as an allready solved, trivial matter.

Just take any highrise complex and flatten it out to be all on one floor. You can easily fit 1000 people into a modern housing complex and provide them with all necessary recreational and commercial areas.

Asemwald, built in the 60s, is a fine example for that (~holds about 2400 people + recreational and commercial areas).



No need for bunk beds, tubes or similar inconveniences. Everybody gets his own appartement and we add a couple of recreational areas, as well as some workshops and educational facilities and it´s finished.

Here are the floorplans for single, double and tripple room appartements:

link

A single room appartement takes up 45m² (480 sqare feet) so housing for 1000 people should take up 45,000m² (480,000 square feet).

This particular complex is very well recieved by its residents and the inhabitants have a relatively high standard of living making it a good example to copy.

[Broomstick]

I could use the bottom bunk. So at a minimum half the beds would be usable by my 70 year old self. The less dense housing all has low-level beds.

So you have a certain amount of beds accessible to disabled people and certain amount that isn´t. Why would that be a problem with the use of tubes?

If we defaulted to "tubes" that would mean segregating the disabled and setting them apart from the community and restricting their choice as to who to live with. There will be little enough choice, we don't need to restrict it needlessly.

On top of that - the able-bodied can use accessible facilities with no problem, so by making as much as possible accessible you get the biggest break on manufacturing as well as the greatest flexibility in living arrangements.

And, finally - if we're building this in the US the law requires certain aspects of accessibility regardless, such as doorway widths, and bathroom dimensions. So we might as well gear everything to those dimensions.

Sure, but I think you're underestimating the number of negative reactions to the sleeping tubes.

Maybe. Maybe not. We don´t have that many reactions so it´s hard to tell.
Looking up the numbers on claustrophobia it appears that 14% of people are not able to lie in an MRT tube for a medical check. If this holds up to private sleeping tubes as well it would be nonsense to install them.

However, the basic idea of having the possiblitly of sealing off your bed from noise, light and farts still holds.

I just think there are too many issues with using the tubes as a default standard - but I agree that some sort of arrangement to wall off one's sleeping compartment makes a lot of sense. Maybe I'll modify my bed structures to reflect that. It wouldn't be too hard to add a sliding door.

I do think the tubes would have merit where people need to be "on call" 24/7 at least part of the time. The medical wing, for instance, might have one or two so staff needing to stay at the location to take care of patients have a place to catch a nap.

Eh, if they´re just going to be used in very special locations the amount of space saved won´t be large enough to justify them. The advanteges of these things come with numbers.

Eh, "on call" rooms are traditionally very small, they're just a place to catch a nap. The advantage there is the ability to use the space above/below as storage space.

[salm]

What we should be looking in saving space isn't saving space overall but maximizing the utility of used space.

Saving space and maximizing the utility of used space is the same thing.