Three Years Ago Today...

[MKSheppard]

Since when is a football field 74.5 feet? From the following drawing, we can see from the pixels that you are a lying cocksucker.

My mistake; I was thinking of yards, not feet; D'oh. Anyway the distance is still 74~ feet. Irregardless of my brainfart in football lengths.

[MKSheppard]

The kids at Kent State must also have been morons.

+ 1 Bazillion

What many people don't mention is that these peaceful, hippies had previously burned the Campus ROTC building down. They got what was coming to them by stoning armed troops.

[Elfdart]

The kids at Kent State must also have been morons.

Absofuckinglutely.

If there is gunfire, and you don't immediately hit the deck, you are a god damned retard. Even if you are going to return fire in combat, you go to ground to provide more stability and cover.

The Guard opened fire without warning for only a few seconds, asshole. Most of the students didn't realize they were being shot at until it was too late, but at that point they did duck or try to take cover. Two of the students killed weren't even part of the demonstration, but were walking to class when stray bullets hit them. I guess each one was a "god damned retard".

The fact that your cause is just does not mean your actions are smart.

So I guess you think every member of the armed forces killed in Iraq and Afghanistan was a "god damned retard", too.

[Sriad]

There is no way she could not have been seen by them in
their elevated cabin.

Height of this is 59.47 pixels to the meter.

Assuming Saint Pankake is 1.75 meters tall (5' 8"); she comes out as 104 pixels tall.

From the following drawing, we see that a D9 operator cannot see Saint Pankake unless she is past 1351 pixels away; or 22.72 meters away, or 74 1/2 feet away, almost a foot-ball field's length!

And this is with a unmodified D9, without the anti sniper uparmor package which severely restricts vision anyway.

While Mark's info above sheds the beginnings of light on the situation I'd like to add a little...since I'm actually fucking liscense to drive one of these things. Rather I should say the uparmored D7 (some reports seem to say D7 others D9 so I don't know) which I have ridden in. The driver's forward vision is through a single pane of bullet proof glass that measures about 18" wide and 6-10" high. That's it. The field of vision is EXTREMELY narrow and often times as an operator I've missed people who were standing no more than a foot away from the centerline of the vehicle.

Now none of this says anything about whether another vehicle could have been in radio contact with the operator and warned him off but I can say from personal experience that the operator himself carried a HUGE likelyhood of being unable to see a woman kneeling in front of the blad and given the size of the vehicle likely would never have even noticed he hit her.

Its tragic but its hard to hold the operator at fault unless you want to claim he is operating in a strict liability situation but that still doesn't get him for murder.

This image is misleading. Here is a version drawing line of sight from the predicted location of the driver's eyes out of the cab window. Note that if I accidentally placed the driver behind where he would actually be, his field of vision would grow LARGER. The previous version would only be correct if the driver's eyes were on the same level as the bottom of the window.

Linked Due To Size - SirNitram

Besides which, Wong's point stands. There are obviously people around interested in obstructing the driver's actions. He should be sure they're out of the way.

Elfdart, I'm glad someone FINALLY picked up on football field=300 feet.

[Sriad]

Fuck, I didn't mean to distort the thread dimensions there.

Here's a thumbnail.

[SirNitram]

Fuck, I didn't mean to distort the thread dimensions there.

Here's a thumbnail.

Dressed the link for you.

[Elfdart]

A ball which could have been set in motion simply by a large media campaign without a symbol.

Media campaign? In which media? Black media had been against Jim Crow for decades before Rosa Parks came along. But the white media at best didn't give a shit or at worst, supported the apartheid system back then. Rosa Parks didn't just galvanize blacks against discrimination, she also had a great deal of crossover appeal among white communities in big cities who appreciated what it must have been like to finally get a bus seat after a long day at work, and then being cuffed and taken downtown for not giving it up to someone claiming to be "superior".

What she did was moral and brave, but it was not smart.

Says a sniveling little cur.

[Ender]

The kids at Kent State must also have been morons.

Absofuckinglutely.

If there is gunfire, and you don't immediately hit the deck, you are a god damned retard. Even if you are going to return fire in combat, you go to ground to provide more stability and cover.

The Guard opened fire without warning for only a few seconds, asshole. Most of the students didn't realize they were being shot at until it was too late, but at that point they did duck or try to take cover. Two of the students killed weren't even part of the demonstration, but were walking to class when stray bullets hit them. I guess each one was a "god damned retard".

They burned down a guard building the night before, not the birghtest move, engaged armed guardsmen by throwing rocks, and then didn't hit the ground. Absolutley.

The fact that your cause is just does not mean your actions are smart.

So I guess you think every member of the armed forces killed in Iraq and Afghanistan was a "god damned retard", too.

I see the fact that they have no choice in the matter escapes you.

[Ender]

A ball which could have been set in motion simply by a large media campaign without a symbol.

Media campaign? In which media? Black media had been against Jim Crow for decades before Rosa Parks came along.

A point I made as well. They capitalized on it to get the boycotts going.

But the white media at best didn't give a shit or at worst, supported the apartheid system back then. Rosa Parks didn't just galvanize blacks against discrimination, she also had a great deal of crossover appeal among white communities in big cities who appreciated what it must have been like to finally get a bus seat after a long day at work, and then being cuffed and taken downtown for not giving it up to someone claiming to be "superior".

And all that support did what exactly... oh yeah, diddly squat. It was the fact that boycotts hurt the companies financially that did it.

What she did was moral and brave, but it was not smart.

Says a sniveling little cur.

And as usual you bullshit and bluster when you can't make a point. Lets see how long it takes you to get to flat out lying and contradicting yourself this time, hmm?

[MKSheppard]

They burned down a guard building the night before, not the birghtest move, engaged armed guardsmen by throwing rocks, and then didn't hit the ground. Absolutley.

Funny how that doesn't get mentioned in the usual accounts.

[Patrick Degan]

The kids at Kent State must also have been morons.

+ 1 Bazillion

What many people don't mention is that these peaceful, hippies had previously burned the Campus ROTC building down. They got what was coming to them by stoning armed troops.

Kindly explain to the class how any of that justifies a deadly-force response two days after the fact.

[Patrick Degan]

They burned down a guard building the night before, not the birghtest move, engaged armed guardsmen by throwing rocks, and then didn't hit the ground. Absolutley.

Funny how that doesn't get mentioned in the usual accounts.

Probably because it occurred two days before the shooting and is therefore actually irrelevant to the issue?

[Uraniun235]

Furthermore, it was already scheduled for demolition.

I know that I wouldn't have wanted to be in that situation as a member of the Guard. I've heard the training back then was pretty shitty and that the Guardsmen involved had almost no training on how to actually perform riot control.

Supposedly there were a bunch of students who had to be talked out of retaliating immediately after the shootings. I can't help but wonder what might have happened if that had actually gone down.

[Elfdart]

More lies from Sheepfucker to justify jacking off over corpses. More lies from Ender to justify violence against college students. At least this time Ender has expanded his list of acceptable targets to include male students. That's progress, I suppose. I enjoyed this little gem:

So I guess you think every member of the armed forces killed in Iraq and Afghanistan was a "god damned retard", too.

I see the fact that they have no choice in the matter escapes you.

Last time I checked, all members of the US armed forces are volunteers. By your dimwitted logic, they were all dumbasses who should have known better.

So the students who were killed and wounded at Kent State had it coming because they burned down an ROTC building, right? Here's a list of those who were killed and far away from the cowardly guardsmen who shot them, courtesy of Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

* Allison Krause 343 ft (105 m)
* Jeffrey Glen Miller 270 ft (81 m)
* Sandra Lee Scheuer 390 ft (119 m)
* William Knox Schroeder 382 ft (116 m)

OK assholes, which one of those four set fire to the building?

Here are the wounded (same source):

* Thomas Mark Grace 60 to 200 ft (18 to 61 m) unverified
* Joseph Lewis 71 ft (22 m)
* John Cleary 110 ft (34 m)
* Alan Canfora 225 ft (69 m)
* Dean Kahler 300 ft (91 m)
* Douglas Wrentmore 329 ft (100 m)
* James Dennis Russell 375 ft (114 m)
* Robert Stamps 495 ft (151 m)
* Donald MacKenzie 750 ft (229 m)

Now tell me something, you lying little fucktards: Which one of these students set fire to the building?

I'll give you a hint: Two of the students killed weren't even part of the demonstration. They were students walking to class. One (William Schroeder) was in fact a member of the campus ROTC. If an officer in training couldn't even get through school without getting killed by "friendly fire" no wonder the Vietnamese won the war.

As a side note, the distances for all but two, (possibly three) of the students wounded (and all of those killed) shows that either Kent State was an athletic powerhouse with even the hippie students (including two girls!) capable of out-throwing the most strong-armed NFL quarterbacks or MLB pitchers; or the whole story about them pelting the soldiers with rocks and bottles is more bullshit from lying little assholes.

[Uraniun235]

obviously anyone intimidated by people throwing rocks is a coward

[Master of Ossus]

Shep, are you actually stupid enough to argue that demonstrations and destruction of property justify the use of deadly force in retaliation? And what do the Kent State shootings have to do with Rachel Corie?

[Knife]

Shep, are you actually stupid enough to argue that demonstrations and destruction of property justify the use of deadly force in retaliation? And what do the Kent State shootings have to do with Rachel Corie?

I would imagine that those who are willing to destroy a building can hardly be consisdered peaceniks. It's not a total carte-blanche factor in mowing down civilians, yet it hardly makes a case for a sit in, drum fest.

You can't really justify them firing into the crowd, yet burning down building (even if they were slated to be demolished) isn't exactly peaceful protest and shows a certain willingness to resort to violence to a certain degree.

Before Elfdartness jumps on me, I disagree with the historical result in the situation and the fucknuts should have checked fire. However, they wer hardly just 'sitting there' when they were mowed down. Poor fuckers.

[Elfdart]

Shep, are you actually stupid enough to argue that demonstrations and destruction of property justify the use of deadly force in retaliation? And what do the Kent State shootings have to do with Rachel Corie?

Sheepfucker thinks it's cute and funny when unarmed people get killed, whether it's Rachel Corrie in 2003 or Allison Krause and the others in 1970. Part of it's malice against those he disagrees with, but I'll bet the rest is motivated by intense hatred for those who have more courage in a drop of their blood than keyboard bombardiers like him have in their whole bodies.

I would imagine that those who are willing to destroy a building can hardly be consisdered peaceniks. It's not a total carte-blanche factor in mowing down civilians, yet it hardly makes a case for a sit in, drum fest.

You can't really justify them firing into the crowd, yet burning down building (even if they were slated to be demolished) isn't exactly peaceful protest and shows a certain willingness to resort to violence to a certain degree.

Before Elfdartness jumps on me, I disagree with the historical result in the situation and the fucknuts should have checked fire. However, they wer hardly just 'sitting there' when they were mowed down. Poor fuckers.

Since our resident gutless wonders can't or won't answer the question, I'll ask you: Out of the students killed and wounded at Kent State, which ones took part in burning the ROTC building?

[Surlethe]

More lies from Ender to justify violence against college students. At least this time Ender has expanded his list of acceptable targets to include male students.

I love how you twist "the students were being stupid by throwing rocks and provoking the guardsmen and then not hitting the ground" to "violence against college students is justified". Are you incapable of divorcing the two notions?

[Lord Zentei]

The fact that your cause is just does not mean your actions are smart.

So I guess you think every member of the armed forces killed in Iraq and Afghanistan was a "god damned retard", too.

There is a slight difference here: soldiers act in a professional manner and rely on their training and support units to keep them safe. They do not jump into the line of fire unless they are reasonably certain that they have adequate backup and possible egress.

What Rachel Corrie did was stand in front of a moving vehicle and expect the driver of that vehicle to see her and stop. For the soldier analogy to be valid, soldiers would have to rely on their opponents not shooting them rather than rely on their companions covering them.

Regardless, what she did was brave and moral.

[Faqa]

*sigh*

Risking your life for a cause crosses the line into stupidity when you REMOVE an active agent from the equation.

Example:

Kent State Riots - Hmm, man with gun, already nervous at lots of screaming angry young students. Let's throw rocks at him, too! The soldier, while lacking discpline and self-control(maybe) is no longer an active agent against the cause if he opens fire. He's acting in percieved self-defense. While makes that one stupid.

Tianmen Square - Tank driver is an ACTIVE AGENT, since he has the full choice to actively not run down the protester and if he does, it's a knowing choice. It is completely and deliberately against an unprovoking protester.

MLK - Assassin is, obviously, an active agent, fully and deliberately choosing to strike against MLK's cause.

Corrie - More complicated. But the driver, while negligible, does NOT fulfill the 'active agent' requirement. He was probably under orders to do his job, and just not hit protesters(which does not remove his responsibility). The hit was accidental, Rachel Corrie placing herself in a position where it was more than likely she'd be accidentally hit.

Think of it this way - if we, the Israeli goverment, ALLOW the protesters to delay our military actions in the area, that is actively allowing them to win. Not to mention it gives the terrorist elements time to run. We CANNOT allow foreign protestors to dictate our actions to such an extent.

This is not an internal civil protest. This is a foreign element actively involving itself in the military workings of a war zone. When did they get a get-out-of-jail-free card? So the analogy of protestors being against a jail doesn't really work.

Which is not to say there was no negligence. The dozer driver could not, in good faith, obey the order to drive a hazardous vehicle into a zone full of innocents. This is known in Israeli law as a "patently illegal order"(as opposed to just an illegal one, which DOES have to be obeyed, just reported later), I think(though the big argument is whether it crossed that line, of course).

But to act as though Corrie was some sort of martyr for the cause is ridiculous. She was a well-meaning woman who chose to put herself in a stupid position. Her ascencion into sainthood seems to prove the power of cheap sensationalism over reality.

[CarsonPalmer]

My personal view is that the Kent State shootings were a tragedy, not a murder. Look, the protestors on that day did not have anything to do with burning down the ROTC buidling, but put yourselves in the shoes of the Guardsmen for a moment.

You are 22 years old, or about the age. Hundreds of protestors shoutiing out you, some of them rather violently. Just two days ago some people who might even be in this crowd today burned an ROTC training building. Rocks start flying at you. You raise your gun, but the rocks keep coming. What would you do in this situation?

[Aaron]

Although I am reluctant to get involved in this clusterfuck, I have to ask one question: Why was this dozer operating without a ground guide, equiped with a radio link to the operator?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Is there any evidence besides the Guardsmen word that rocks were thrown? Did anyone else see this, or get hit; was anyone injured?

[CmdrWilkens]

As I said earlier, if this happened in, say, a city in New Mexico where residents were protesting a plan to build a new prison, there would be charges laid. Not necessarily murder charges, but the jury would be quite easily convinced that the driver, knowing that there were crowds of people around, should have waited until police could clear them and he'd be assured of safety before putting his foot in the gas.

Barrelling forward when you know you can't see shit and people are probably in your way would get your ass sued six ways from Sunday for criminal negligence causing death, and possibly charged criminally with vehicular homicide.

In any location in the US the operator wouldn't be required to use an uparmored D7 or D9 for fear of explosives. The blunt standard version has enough visibility to ensure there are no bystanders in the way while the uparmored version compromises its field of view to prevent the operator from being killed. Given the strictures the oeprator was acting under he was doing exactly what uparmored operators are taught to do: go slow, constantly scan and turn only when absolutely neccessarry.

As a side note the TOP speed of a D7 without armor is about 4mph going forward, with armor you are LUCKY to make 3 mph at top speed. This guy could floor the damn thing and still be inching along.

The result is tragic but from all that I have heard the operator acted as would any other operator. This excludes the idea of peopel having line of sight in front of him and radios to communicate with him (because if there were and they did then the operator would be negligent or at least the observers would be) Barring this, though, the operator could not have simply run a person down nor did he appear to act in any way other than how uparmored drivers are taught.