Nitram and Entropy

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SWPIGWANG
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

Please, prove that entropy can be reversed on any scale. It can be slowed, this is obvious. Crop rotation, which you so desperately want to be a cure all, can slow the loss of nutrients from farmland. But it does not mean that that land can support an infinite number of seasons.
Oh please, don't tell me what had went on for billions of years wouldn't go on for another million....

Crop rotation might not be the cure all, but thats a microscopic system like mike said. The macroscopic system is that whatever we consume as farm products are still biomass, and what happens is that they usually get dumped into the sea or such to feed the alegies for nice red tides.... I guess we'll have to eat different stuff if this keeps up, but there will always be stuff to eat. Alternatively, we can just redistribute the biomass and carbon with technology and planning that is not currently beyond us.

Yeah, so the farmer can just use some fertilizer and plant some nitrogen fixing plants and wait a few years and the land would be productive again. (but which farmer is gonna do that?)

In any case, all the processes described is reversible as long as we have heat reservoirs of different temperatures to dump entropy to.

There is a upperbound on the RATE of production (proptional to energy supply), not net quantity. (for another few billion years at least)
He is ignoring observation of the spread of deserts, but doesn't care.
Oh please, the earth was desert and rock before there was life.

Of course one can reverse desertification by moving water back in and slowly rebuilding the soil and climate. But we lazy humans don't care because it'd take something like a generation to make anything useful out of it, instead we perfer slash and burn farming and leave the problem to someone else.
Allow me to explain a bit for the folks who are just joining in. Kojikun is another of those who refuse to believe that automation will not automagically cause everything to become free after some threshold. In amongst his rantings where he proves he doesn't understand the relation between cost and value, and microscopic and macroscopic, I pointed out in plain English that value, thus cost, will remain simply because there are limited resources. If you just declared them free anyone, you get a massive economic crash when you run out. Kojikun simply refuses to believe you can run out of food if you make it free to 6+billion people.
However, unlike some nice curves in microeconomics class, the consumption of goods does NOT goto infinity if the cost is zero. (AOL CDs anyone?) Last time I checked, I'm not hoarding air because it is free. The value marginal value of an objects can and do become zero when sufficient quantities are supplied. One does not need infinite resources for zero cost goods.

But the question is, does the world have enough resources to satistify everyone, and that is a whole other matter than playing around with arguments.

Of course, the simple solution would be to kill lots of people, which solves the problem altogether. :)
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Admiral Valdemar
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I think I recall a thread once where Es Arkajae argued for pages about humans eventually developing tech in the future to combat entropy entirely.

Because, humans are superior and that means natural law bends over and takes it for us.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I think I recall a thread once where Es Arkajae argued for pages about humans eventually developing tech in the future to combat entropy entirely.

Because, humans are superior and that means natural law bends over and takes it for us.
LOL!

I don't think that'll happen before Es Arkajae takes a cock up his ass and genuinely likes it. In other words: Never.
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Post by Rye »

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:I think I recall a thread once where Es Arkajae argued for pages about humans eventually developing tech in the future to combat entropy entirely.

Because, humans are superior and that means natural law bends over and takes it for us.
LOL!

I don't think that'll happen before Es Arkajae takes a cock up his ass and genuinely likes it. In other words: Never.
Oh please, Es loves it, why do you think he keeps that stick up there?

At any rate, i've never heard of entropy being reversed, moved around maybe, but not reversed.
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Post by kojikun »

Rye wrote:At any rate, i've never heard of entropy being reversed, moved around maybe, but not reversed.
I said reversed locally, so that in one place the entropy decreases, but is displaced elsewhere. Which is the same as being moved around. But it still is being reversed in one area of the whole closed system. That area being an open system.
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Post by Thinkmarble »

Raxmei wrote: Just to be sure we're all on the same page here, can everyone involved define entropy in their own words?
Mhm.
Entropy is a measure for the lack of information we have about a system.

I'm not quite sure if the following is correct:

Entropy is a measurement of how much energy is distributed between the intrinsic degrees of freedom a system has in opposition to the engery distributed between the macroscopic degrees of freedom.
That's is difference between singular atoms vibrating and rotating and the boldy body made up of the atom rotating.
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Post by Thinkmarble »

One should not post when tired.

Entropy is a measurement of how much energy is distributed between the microscopic degrees of freedom a system has in opposition to the engery distributed between the macroscopic degrees of freedom.
That's is difference between singular atoms vibrating and rotating and the whole body made up of the atoms rotating.
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Zoink
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Re: Nitram and Entropy

Post by Zoink »

kojikun wrote: So Nitram is wrong. In a whole closed system, no, entropy always increases,

In a very small closed system entropy can decrease. Thermodynamics is a statistical science and for very small systems its possible to violate the rules.
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Post by Darth Wong »

kojikun wrote:I said reversed locally, so that in one place the entropy decreases, but is displaced elsewhere. Which is the same as being moved around. But it still is being reversed in one area of the whole closed system. That area being an open system.
The problem is that the term "reversibility" has a very specific thermodynamics definition which is completely contrary to what you are saying. If you just said that entropy can be dumped out of an open system, nobody would disagree with you. But reversibility is a whole other can of worms in the context of any thermodynamics discussion.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Well you can't reverse entropy unless you could make everything go backwards in time and not forwards. You can slow entropy or in some cases practically stop it, but you can't go back.
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Post by kojikun »

Darth Wong wrote:The problem is that the term "reversibility" has a very specific thermodynamics definition which is completely contrary to what you are saying. If you just said that entropy can be dumped out of an open system, nobody would disagree with you. But reversibility is a whole other can of worms in the context of any thermodynamics discussion.
Ah, well appologies for any confusion that may have been caused.
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Post by Kuroneko »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Well you can't reverse entropy unless you could make everything go backwards in time and not forwards. You can slow entropy or in some cases practically stop it, but you can't go back.
That seems very fishy to me. I just don't know how to distinguish past and future states in physics except in reference to entropy. So to me it seems not dissimilar to saying "you can't reverse entropy unless you could reverse entropy and not increase it."
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SWPIGWANG
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

oh well, we can all wish for a miracle in probability so that entropy decreases for a macroscopic system......

if only P == 10^-(10^10) happens, or something like that....
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Post by Zoink »

SWPIGWANG wrote:oh well, we can all wish for a miracle in probability so that entropy decreases for a macroscopic system......

if only P == 10^-(10^10) happens, or something like that....

I saw it happen last tuesday, my apartment spontaneously cleaned itself..... j/k :)
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

That was the Knockers or other fae folk, since you have an actual set of them working for you, make sure to pay them off, as the elves and other faries can become real bitches if not properly bribed and respected.
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Admiral Valdemar
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Kuroneko wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Well you can't reverse entropy unless you could make everything go backwards in time and not forwards. You can slow entropy or in some cases practically stop it, but you can't go back.
That seems very fishy to me. I just don't know how to distinguish past and future states in physics except in reference to entropy. So to me it seems not dissimilar to saying "you can't reverse entropy unless you could reverse entropy and not increase it."
Now you've got me confused. I see it as this; unless we start going backwards in "time", entropy will always increase.

Since the universe is seen as going forward in "time" then entropy will continue to increase.

Or something, I'm not too bothered since entropy is not buggering off anytime soon.
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Post by Kuroneko »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Kuroneko wrote:That seems very fishy to me. I just don't know how to distinguish past and future states in physics except in reference to entropy. So to me it seems not dissimilar to saying "you can't reverse entropy unless you could reverse entropy and not increase it."
Now you've got me confused. I see it as this; unless we start going backwards in "time", entropy will always increase.

Since the universe is seen as going forward in "time" then entropy will continue to increase.
My criticism is actually very basic. The wording of your prior statement implied that time and entropy, although strongly correlated, are in fact independent. Now, let's do a thought experiment. If the whole universe is 'going backwards in time', it would not be possible for you to observe such a thing, since timporal regress would erase any information about the 'future'. Therefore, it must be a localized effect in order to have any meaning. So, then, assume you're observing the evolution of a certain (effectively) closed system. Question: without referencing entropy, how do you determine whether the system is going forwards or backwards in time? If it's not possible, then the behavior of entropy would have to serve as the very definition of temporal direction, and the claim becomes a vacuous tautology.
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Post by Symmetry »

SirNitram wrote:He is ignoring observation of the spread of deserts, but doesn't care.
For the record, desert spread isn't a constant. The size of the Sahara, for instance, varies siniosoidaly on a ~20 year period, its just that it only make the news when it is growing.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Kuroneko wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Kuroneko wrote:That seems very fishy to me. I just don't know how to distinguish past and future states in physics except in reference to entropy. So to me it seems not dissimilar to saying "you can't reverse entropy unless you could reverse entropy and not increase it."
Now you've got me confused. I see it as this; unless we start going backwards in "time", entropy will always increase.

Since the universe is seen as going forward in "time" then entropy will continue to increase.
My criticism is actually very basic. The wording of your prior statement implied that time and entropy, although strongly correlated, are in fact independent. Now, let's do a thought experiment. If the whole universe is 'going backwards in time', it would not be possible for you to observe such a thing, since timporal regress would erase any information about the 'future'. Therefore, it must be a localized effect in order to have any meaning. So, then, assume you're observing the evolution of a certain (effectively) closed system. Question: without referencing entropy, how do you determine whether the system is going forwards or backwards in time? If it's not possible, then the behavior of entropy would have to serve as the very definition of temporal direction, and the claim becomes a vacuous tautology.
Yeah, I didn't word it too well, but entropy correlates with time.
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