Plants vs. Jedi (Trigun spoilers)

[Sriad]

This has been discussed repeatedly before as well (about how the damaging component is invisible and that the visible part itself is little more than a side effect or "Tracer" - this is supported well in canon AND official literature.) If you want to start an argument about blaster bolt velocity, go create a thread in the PSW forum and people will be more than happy to educate you.

So...does the "Tracer" argument explain why it doesn't fall?

Also I'm incredulous re: Jedi's assumed abilities to block or snatch bullets out of mid-air. Obviously pre-cog will work heavily to their advantage in this, but I can't remember any instances of a jedi either A: brodcasting a solid wall of force that would catch any object entering it (and since it's bullets we're talking about, it would need to be quite a bit of force)
or B: Doing the force application equivelent of 0-60 in a hundredth of a second. The thing is, the bullets that Vash would be shooting aren't piddly little things; in the second Nebraska Family episode he knocked a several hundred pound (low estimate) projectile off target with one bullet. Obviously a Jedi can generate more TK force than that, but for all the upper end feats there is a sort of charging up time that could be problematic when the thing they're trying to catch is moving hundreds of m/s.

Also, when evaluating Vash's skills in hand to hand combat, episode 6 springs to mind.

[Gil Hamilton]

Without understanding the mechanism by which blasters work, its pretty hard to say what they're properties with regard to drop ought to be. For instance, could they're be some sort of guiding beam? To tell the truth, the depiction of blasters in Star Wars seems to be in line with our naive intuitive ideas of how things "ought to look" rather than being based on any sort of physics, so it doesn't really seem pointful to ask why something appears not to be dropping if its only moving 20 m/s or so, rather than simply accepting that in Star Wars it does.

Actually, this is the exact truth. I'm sure that Connor is going to care much, but Industrial Light and Magic, or any other special effects company, designs things to look pleasing on screen above all else. I wouldn't be suprised if we timed blaster bolts in flight, they'd all have about the same travel time, regardless of distance, because it's not unusual for SFX companies to have optimized the on-screen time of any effect to "look right".

[Smiling Bandit]

The thing is, the bullets that Vash would be shooting aren't piddly little things; in the second Nebraska Family episode he knocked a several hundred pound (low estimate) projectile off target with one bullet.

His *other* gun is even worse. He shot that thing with perfect accuracy straight down several stories, cutting through a multi-foot-thick floor. If we assume that's concrete (and it was more likely an unidentified metal), we've got penetrtation ability that exceeeds some tank rounds.

The only thing the Jedi have on him is TK.

[Connor MacLeod]

So...does the "Tracer" argument explain why it doesn't fall?

See the AOTC ICS, as well as various official descriptions of blasters (Shadows of the Empire is the most explicit, the EGW&T indicates that the visible portion is a "harmless byproduct" of the beam.)

Further, note the numerous "damage before contact" incidents observed all throughout the movies (for both hand blasters and capital weapons.) - there are also more than ample discussions of blaster natures on the various technical websites and this board as well.

Also I'm incredulous re: Jedi's assumed abilities to block or snatch bullets out of mid-air. Obviously pre-cog will work heavily to their advantage in this, but I can't remember any instances of a jedi either A: brodcasting a solid wall of force that would catch any object entering it (and since it's bullets we're talking about, it would need to be quite a bit of force)

Force Wall technique stated in the canon AOTC novelization. The force/momentum imparted by bullets, even if we assume these bullets carried enough momentum to knock a person off their feet (highly unlikely, but assume hundreds of kg*m/s worth of momentm) is insignificant compared to what Jedi TK has demonstrated, even if we go by fairly low end calcs.

or B: Doing the force application equivelent of 0-60 in a hundredth of a second. The thing is, the bullets that Vash would be shooting aren't piddly little things; in the second Nebraska Family episode he knocked a several hundred pound (low estimate) projectile off target with one bullet.

It was five bullets, and he didnt knock it THAT far off course. BTW I *would* point out that the barrel of Vash's gun clearly indicates a

BTW how do we know the Nebraska son's fist is several hundred pounds? Not that I neccesarily disagree, but what makes you claim that?

IIRC the Nebraska father *claimed* that the fist was equal to a car or truck moving at like 60-120 Miles/km per hour, I dont recall which. Assuiming 120 MPH and roughly 3 tons for a "truck" (approximately accurate, maybe a bit generous) yields a momentum of roughly 160,000 kg*m/s (although this means that the Nebraska son weighs abouta s much as 4 fully-loaded jet fighters, at a minimum, given that the recoil did not bowl him over, so its possible the figure is not accurate.)

Obviously a Jedi can generate more TK force than that, but for all the upper end feats there is a sort of charging up time that could be problematic when the thing they're trying to catch is moving hundreds of m/s.

The momentum of a single .45 bullet, even granting it AMR grade power, is insignificant. It would still be insignificant unless we assumed each bullet Vash fired is approaching hte power of say, a Naval Cannon (somewhat of an exaggeration, but not too much - big Battleship guns can toss a 1.5 ton shell at over twice the speed of sound, roughly.)

The tossing about of Battle droids (an incredibly casual feat) we see in TPM and AOTC is orders of magntidue greater. And precognition gives them all th warning they need (for accuracy, look at Anakin in TPM anticipating precisely where Zam's airspeeder lands, or Luke anticipating the danger of his friends, etc.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, this is the exact truth. I'm sure that Connor is going to care much, but Industrial Light and Magic, or any other special effects company, designs things to look pleasing on screen above all else. I wouldn't be suprised if we timed blaster bolts in flight, they'd all have about the same travel time, regardless of distance, because it's not unusual for SFX companies to have optimized the on-screen time of any effect to "look right".

"FX screwups" have no relevance in discussion or analysis. Suspension of Disbelief, remember?

[Connor MacLeod]

Incidentally, Connor, how is it that you can accept Jedi pulling amazingly impossible Gees in fights yet you can't accept that, just maybe, Vash is able to dodge bullets because of a previously unknown mechanism? Vash has demonstrated this ability numerous times and it is canon. Deal.

Occam's Razor. You want to start adding "unknown mechanisms" to explain your far more complex theory, be my guest. But burden of proof is on you. If you have some problem as to understand just WHY its impossible for Vash to react to a bullet in flight, then I suggest you go do some research. ITs been discussed.

(just to elaborate, if we assume a subsonic 300 m/s bullet, 10 meter distance between the firing man and the target, and that to dodge the person must move only a foot aside, this requires some 60 gees wortth of acceleration. Outside of some field-acceleration ability, this is downright impossible. I should note the above example was indicated by Mike in the discussion about bullet-dodging, but as I recall there are at least several incidents in Trigun where the parameters would fit. There are also examples that feature much closer ranges and much higher muzzle velocities - eg rifles.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Quite often, he's only barely cognizant of the actual threat, so this point is rather silly. In one episode, he dodged (well, arranged for someone else to dodge) a bullet fired by a sniper. I'm taking wild guess, but that bullet should be well beyond the sound barrier. Ergo, he can dodge bullets without knowing the shooter is there and before he hears them. The most notable time he got shot he was completely distracted by acting goofy and off-balance. And he even then only took moderate damage (at least, it wasn't mortal and didn't kill him with oinly poor medical help) from two guyts at point blacnk range with AK's. Regardless, even if you are correctyou have in no way shown that this will somehow limit his ability to dodge lightsabers or blasters fired by any Jedi. Given his melee performance and the fact that he can carry two grown women and a car bench for miles across a desert... well, he's not going to tire out in this fight anytime soon.

Also, note that in episode 2 (?) Vash can recognize when the bullet is going to be fired, but doesn't dodge until the bullet is being fired.

Thus suggesting prediction, which is precisely what I am attributing his bullet avoidance abilities to, if you would bother listening. We know Vash appears to have telepathic abilities (he communicates with Legato in one episode, IIRC) and he's also got superhuman sensory attunement. Jedi for their part have precognition. Bullet velocity has no bearing on this, and its impossible to "move out" of the way of the bullet (well, not impossible, but it requires a field-accelerated movement to do so, and if one could achieve that, its far simpler to deflect the bullet aside - the momentum of the bullet is insignificant compared to that of a human body.)

As for the bit about the Jedi, Vash is outweighed in terms of the telekinesis the Jedi can bring to bear, and Jedi precognition (at a minimum, but probably not power generation (plants are basically reactors of a sort, after all,- even aside from the Angel Arm.) And I point out if we take Knives as any indication, they might very well be vulnerable to projectile damage (EG Jedi picking up small objects and flinging them with tremendous force.)

lastly, since Conner loves to rag on me for "abandoning phsyics", I find it pretty funny that he's now simply making things up whole cloth rather than accept on-screen evidence. Make up your mind; media physics just don't always work like you think it should.

Oh really, and what did I make up exactly? All I've pointed out is that its impossible for Vash to genrate the required acceleration to dodge aside from a bullet already in flight. Any "bullet dodging" he does is prediction, not "dodging".

If for some reason you still don't understand what I am saying, look here: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=7801

[Connor MacLeod]

Without understanding the mechanism by which blasters work, its pretty hard to say what they're properties with regard to drop ought to be. For instance, could they're be some sort of guiding beam? To tell the truth, the depiction of blasters in Star Wars seems to be in line with our naive intuitive ideas of how things "ought to look" rather than being based on any sort of physics, so it doesn't really seem pointful to ask why something appears not to be dropping if its only moving 20 m/s or so, rather than simply accepting that in Star Wars it does.

Suspension of disbelief requires we treat onscreen phenomena as if it occured in real life (IE no "FX screwups" or such.) Without that, there's not much point to having a rational discussion. From onscreen we can certainly observe a number of traits that help us define blasters (they don't drop in gravity, there is "damage before contact", they appear to operate thermally, do not appear to have much momentum, don't behave like traditional lasers, etc.) Much of this research has been factual for years now.

[Connor MacLeod]

And yet they still appear to be slower than bullets, provide evidence to show me otherwise and I'll retract that view. I don't CARE about the arcing in gravity, that's not what we're discussing, it's the velocity and given the mixed nature of what blaster bolts are I'm not asking for the specifics on why they don't fall to the ground after a metre travelled.

Demanding I disprove your "opinion" (you havent exactly "proven" your claimed velocity for the bolts, either.), but why not play along.

This has been done numerous times before. HDS did the research into blaster velocity (Based on the battle between Obi-Wan and Jango on Kamino, he estimated at least 100 m/s or more...) I've estimated blaster velocity based on Zam Wessell firing her blaster on objects from her speeder on Coruscant to similar levels conservatively. And there are the fact rifles were used across multi km distances in AOTC and TESB (Geonosis and Hoth respectively) with bolts covering the distances in seconds, suggesting hypersonic velocity. And that is just canon.

On top of that, "drop" of a projectile in a gravity field is in fact relevant to bolt velocity. Gravity exerts a constant downward pull on all objects (mitigated by air resistance), which results in objects tending to "drop" in a gravity well. Velocity of the object factors in with this to create an "arc". If we assumed (as you basically do) that blaster bolts travel little faster than say, a baseball, there would be a noticable curve to the trajectory (the projectile would "drop" towards the ground.)

Now, I am goign to repeat this for the last time. If you want discuss blasters, go to PSW and do it. Blaster velocity is an absolute red herring in this discussion, and has no relevance whatsoever to the outcome. Particularily since few jedi actually carry blasters AND it was already stated that both Jedi and Plants are unarmed (although the Angel Arm isnt really even a weapon.)

[Connor MacLeod]

His *other* gun is even worse. He shot that thing with perfect accuracy straight down several stories, cutting through a multi-foot-thick floor. If we assume that's concrete (and it was more likely an unidentified metal), we've got penetrtation ability that exceeeds some tank rounds.

Proof? Vash's arm isn't even ripped off when firing it, nor is he bodily flung aside when firing it.

The only thing the Jedi have on him is TK.

And precognition, and mind control (at least for more adept Jedi). But TK alone is sufficient to give the Jedi an edge in this battle, as even an average Jedi has prodigious TK capabilities (enough to fling multiple multi-ton battle droids around through the air.) And that's largely ignoring the other abilities a Jedi could potentially bring to bear.

[Connor MacLeod]

For the record, I did in fact start a discussion on blaster bolts here:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 825#760825

If any of you wish to continue arguing about it, go to PSW and do it there. I will not answer any further arguments about blaster bolt velocity in this thread, because it is NOT relevant whatsoever to the outcome and I am tired of dealing with the misdirection.

[Symmetry]

Without understanding the mechanism by which blasters work, its pretty hard to say what they're properties with regard to drop ought to be. For instance, could they're be some sort of guiding beam? To tell the truth, the depiction of blasters in Star Wars seems to be in line with our naive intuitive ideas of how things "ought to look" rather than being based on any sort of physics, so it doesn't really seem pointful to ask why something appears not to be dropping if its only moving 20 m/s or so, rather than simply accepting that in Star Wars it does.

Suspension of disbelief requires we treat onscreen phenomena as if it occured in real life (IE no "FX screwups" or such.) Without that, there's not much point to having a rational discussion. From onscreen we can certainly observe a number of traits that help us define blasters (they don't drop in gravity, there is "damage before contact", they appear to operate thermally, do not appear to have much momentum, don't behave like traditional lasers, etc.) Much of this research has been factual for years now.

I take your point, and I really don't have the right frame of mind for taking this sort of debate seriously, at regarding more fantastic SciFi, like Star Wars or Trigun.

[Admiral Valdemar]

And yet they still appear to be slower than bullets, provide evidence to show me otherwise and I'll retract that view. I don't CARE about the arcing in gravity, that's not what we're discussing, it's the velocity and given the mixed nature of what blaster bolts are I'm not asking for the specifics on why they don't fall to the ground after a metre travelled.

Demanding I disprove your "opinion" (you havent exactly "proven" your claimed velocity for the bolts, either.), but why not play along.

This has been done numerous times before. HDS did the research into blaster velocity (Based on the battle between Obi-Wan and Jango on Kamino, he estimated at least 100 m/s or more...) I've estimated blaster velocity based on Zam Wessell firing her blaster on objects from her speeder on Coruscant to similar levels conservatively. And there are the fact rifles were used across multi km distances in AOTC and TESB (Geonosis and Hoth respectively) with bolts covering the distances in seconds, suggesting hypersonic velocity. And that is just canon.

On top of that, "drop" of a projectile in a gravity field is in fact relevant to bolt velocity. Gravity exerts a constant downward pull on all objects (mitigated by air resistance), which results in objects tending to "drop" in a gravity well. Velocity of the object factors in with this to create an "arc". If we assumed (as you basically do) that blaster bolts travel little faster than say, a baseball, there would be a noticable curve to the trajectory (the projectile would "drop" towards the ground.)

Now, I am goign to repeat this for the last time. If you want discuss blasters, go to PSW and do it. Blaster velocity is an absolute red herring in this discussion, and has no relevance whatsoever to the outcome. Particularily since few jedi actually carry blasters AND it was already stated that both Jedi and Plants are unarmed (although the Angel Arm isnt really even a weapon.)

That's all I wanted, I was playing devil's advocate for this.

As to Vash's abilities, I'll let the others takeover (I never saw all the series). But what he does is often amazing, you'll just have to try your best at rationalising it.

Ta-ta.

[Mutant Headcrab]

or B: Doing the force application equivelent of 0-60 in a hundredth of a second. The thing is, the bullets that Vash would be shooting aren't piddly little things; in the second Nebraska Family episode he knocked a several hundred pound (low estimate) projectile off target with one bullet.

It was five bullets, and he didnt knock it THAT far off course. BTW I *would* point out that the barrel of Vash's gun clearly indicates a

BTW how do we know the Nebraska son's fist is several hundred pounds? Not that I neccesarily disagree, but what makes you claim that?

They were referring to the second Nebraska Family episode. The one with the giant mother, sister and three spherically shaped brothers.

[Connor MacLeod]

or B: Doing the force application equivelent of 0-60 in a hundredth of a second. The thing is, the bullets that Vash would be shooting aren't piddly little things; in the second Nebraska Family episode he knocked a several hundred pound (low estimate) projectile off target with one bullet.

It was five bullets, and he didnt knock it THAT far off course. BTW I *would* point out that the barrel of Vash's gun clearly indicates a

BTW how do we know the Nebraska son's fist is several hundred pounds? Not that I neccesarily disagree, but what makes you claim that?

They were referring to the second Nebraska Family episode. The one with the giant mother, sister and three spherically shaped brothers.

You're right. My mistake.


(although again I forgot to add the kind of gun that is canonically identified: its a .45 Long Colt, the characteristics of which are clearly known. )

The power of the gun is still limited by a number of practical limitations (least of which being Vash isn't knocked on his ass by the recoil, and that others hit by the gun - which we see a number of times in the series, are not pulverized or tossed through the air by the recoil.)

[Smiling Bandit]

As for the bit about the Jedi, Vash is outweighed in terms of the telekinesis the Jedi can bring to bear, and Jedi precognition (at a minimum, but probably not power generation (plants are basically reactors of a sort, after all,- even aside from the Angel Arm.) And I point out if we take Knives as any indication, they might very well be vulnerable to projectile damage (EG Jedi picking up small objects and flinging them with tremendous force.)

Yup.

I wonder if Vash's awesome trickshots would give him an edge? Although the TK would take it ordinarily, he's good enough to bank bullets off of objects and hit the Jedi from behind. Which is really scary.

I'm not even going to try and think about how he manages to pull some of those shots off. They make my brain hurt.

Anyway:

Conner, I have no idea how the super-machine gun didn't knock Vash's arm off. He is really, strong, though. But those bullets have the ability to cut through a at least twice his height so lets say 12 feet of what was at least concrete, but was probably structural steel and steel plating. Not armor-quality, to be sure, but...

Obviously, the bullet does not carry as much force as a tank round, but the penetration is much higher.

I would be curious as to which novels say that blaster fire is traced. In any case, not all incidents match with your assertion, since the explosion often does match the visible portion, even in starship weaponry.

[Connor MacLeod]

I wonder if Vash's awesome trickshots would give him an edge? Although the TK would take it ordinarily, he's good enough to bank bullets off of objects and hit the Jedi from behind. Which is really scary.

Unless the Jedi has particularily crappy precognition, is caught totally by surprise or isn't tapping the Force, or you're going to argue precognition isn't always effective so he loses (thereby claiming that even a slight chance of failure means the Jedi can't win at all.), probably not.

Conner, I have no idea how the super-machine gun didn't knock Vash's arm off. He is really, strong, though. But those bullets have the ability to cut through a at least twice his height so lets say 12 feet of what was at least concrete, but was probably structural steel and steel plating. Not armor-quality, to be sure, but...

Why would it not be plastics or other lightweight materials? Starship construction as we know it tends to emphasize lightweight materials (Aside from which I dont know of any starship that is constructed from concrete.)

Insofar as recoil is concerned, even if he doesn't get his arm ripped off by the gun, there is a further limitation in that his own body mass is not noticably moved by the recoil.

Another factor, although I'm less certain since I haven't seen the show in some time, is that if he fires on other people (I think he fired on at least several Gung-Ho guns with that machine gun arm) the bullet would impart momentum to them (or at least it should.)

Obviously, the bullet does not carry as much force as a tank round, but the penetration is much higher.

Read the IXJac debate. Force (well actually more specifically, pressure - force divided by unit area like meters or centimeters square) factors quite a bit in penetration (at least as much as KE, since the two are related). I suppose that grade of penetration might suggest at a minimum an AMR-grade round, but I'd be surprised if it were more than n order of magntidue (which would still be alot - several hundred kg*m/s worth of momentum per bullet)

I would be curious as to which novels say that blaster fire is traced. In any case, not all incidents match with your assertion, since the explosion often does match the visible portion, even in starship weaponry.

One is Shadows of the Empire. For the quote, go read the "novel references" section of Star Wars TEchnical Commentaries. HDS quote archive probably has references to it as well. If you're still puzzled, go ask on PSW, people will explain it (or do a search on the archived discussions - blaster nature has been discussed numerous times there.)

Again, as I said, the velocity of the blaster bolts is unimportant insofar as the discussion is concerned. If you want to debate whether or not blaster bolts are slow or fast, whether the glowing portion is damaging or not, or whatever, go to the thread in PSW I created and discuss it there.

[lance]

I recall reading a reference from the magna that Legato got his powers from Vash's arm. That could mean a telikinetic(sp?) recoil dampener type thing. Not sure on accuracy or canonicity, but the anime didn't contridict this.

[Smiling Bandit]

Unless the Jedi has particularily crappy precognition, is caught totally by surprise or isn't tapping the Force, or you're going to argue precognition isn't always effective so he loses (thereby claiming that even a slight chance of failure means the Jedi can't win at all.), probably not.

I dunno. During the Geonosis battle, a Jedi Master got killed but a shot from Jango, as I'm sure you know. That's not really good, unless the force was awesomely dampened, which I do not believe (barring Episode 3). I mean, He should have been able to see Jango.

It could only work once, but the bouncing bullet trick would probably get one Jedi.

Why would it not be plastics or other lightweight materials? Starship construction as we know it tends to emphasize lightweight materials (Aside from which I dont know of any starship that is constructed from concrete.)

I just used concrete since its less strong than steel, penetration wise. I suppose it could be plastic, since its difficult to identify materials in cartoons. However, the Seed ships did not appear to use large amounts of plastics in the superstructure, and that floating pod was probably a Seed module. More to the point, there did not appear to be any shattering. Unless they have some very strong plastics, I'm taking a Wild-Half-Arsed Guess that it should have cracked apart. But I'm no structural engineer, so I'm not going to enbarrass myself trying to figure out the specifics.

Also, in case you were wondering, I guessed the bullets penetrated the sections in total due to the fact that the floor was evenly cut. One would expect there to be uneven break points rather than a smooth round section from each successive layer crashing through.

Another factor, although I'm less certain since I haven't seen the show in some time, is that if he fires on other people (I think he fired on at least several Gung-Ho guns with that machine gun arm) the bullet would impart momentum to them (or at least it should.)

he did shoot them with it, although freakishly, it didn't do any damage to anyone he hit it with. I don't recall them getting any major recoil. Then again, recoil never seemed to be a huge issue in Trigun. I think Monev the Gale shot his giant cannon off with less recoil than one would expect of a .38 special. But I need to review my DVD for that episode.