Observing the behaviour of turbolasers and blasters

[Illuminatus Primus]

Let me be more specific: I meant that the particles decay into charged particles -- specifically, I was thinking of just electrons -- which then emmit light so we can see the pulse.

Why bother? Unknown massless quanta --> photons is much more yieldly and doesn't add the clusterfuck of producing particles with mass from massless beam. And those electrons WILL bend in the grav well, forcing the pulse to not follow the beam just straight.

The reason for the charged particle stage is because SotE mentions an "ionized marker," which is not the damaging component.

Coruscant's orbit may have a high degree of gas and matter with respect to average vacuum. Beam may ionize this. I don't want to have the truly wincing stupidity of having to convert massless particles to electrons which then somehow give off light. Electrons != ions anyway. I think we should make an explanation for canon firstly.

Merging as much official data as possible requires that I give a reason for the visible bolt to be considered "ionized." (Any theory that doesn't address the bolt somehow being ionized is ignoring an official source, and therefore incomplete.)

Incorrect. Any theory that best explains all canon evidence is automatically superior to any theory that inferiorally explains canon visuals but has some throwaway line added to latch on to some official tidbit.

In some instances (blasters, some TIE attacks), we can't have a pulse along a c-beam. (Unless we use your stasis ideas, but your ideas don't follow the order of events described in other sources [bolt comes before the beam becomes damaging], and, worse, appears to require a FTL transmission inside of the stasis field. So it still has problems.)

My stasis ideas are a way to try and still have the ICS2 interpretation with too slow of propogation rates yet still having gravity immunity.

You see, relative to the beam, within its own stasis affect, it will only be in the grav well as long as a normal c beam would be, thus it won't be affected by gravity much, just like a beam of light. I don't see any other way to fix blasters.

Also, what were these TIE clips?

Anyway, I don't really like the idea of gravity defying particles. They'd have to have a weakened attatchment to gravity since the Vong can still attract the bolts with their dovin basals.

The "shielding singularities are definitely not real black holes or singularities. They're technobabble and an undefined bit and thus are irrelevent. We don't really know how they work but it definitely isn't like real black holes and gravity. Again, official should be outright ignored until we have a comprehensive canon-explaining theory.

They're exotic particles, it seems, but still... Something that doesn't require gravity defying particles yet still explains everything else would be superior.

You're not listening. Anything that isn't near lightspeed with respect to the gravity well will follow a noticable parabolic arc. This is the reason for my stasis-contained lightspeed beam for slow speed bolts, Saxton's pulse on c beam for high speed bolts, and then the third idea, magic gravity-defying particles.

But something that explains all observed events and fits in all official data, even if it requires those particles, would be superior to something that ignores data.

Official is negligible at best and irrelevent at worst until all canon sources are explained. Especially if they're going to require stupidities such as plasma, and the unknown massless quanta (further referred to as "UMQ") somehow turning into enough ions to somehow give off just enough light. Furthermore, charged particles will not give off green light--same problem with plasma.

Again. Until all canon visuals are explained, Official should be more or less ignored.

[Mad]

Why bother? Unknown massless quanta --> photons is much more yieldly and doesn't add the clusterfuck of producing particles with mass from massless beam. And those electrons WILL bend in the grav well, forcing the pulse to not follow the beam just straight.

The electrons might not emmit light in the visible spectrum long enough to see the drop.

Coruscant's orbit may have a high degree of gas and matter with respect to average vacuum. Beam may ionize this. I don't want to have the truly wincing stupidity of having to convert massless particles to electrons which then somehow give off light. Electrons != ions anyway. I think we should make an explanation for canon firstly.

I don't know the context of the quote, but it mentions two ships and "hard vacuum." I don't think there's any atmosphere in the scene.

BTW, electrons can be considered ions: www.m-w.com : "2 : a charged subatomic particle (as a free electron)"

Electrons giving off photons is also far from unknown (wanna take a guess as to what most of the photons you see when you look at everyday objects are released from?), although I don't know much about how to control the energy levels of photons given off by free electrons. *shrug* Maybe the turbolaser beam decays into a mixture of both into ions (or, "charged subatomic particles," if that makes you feel better) and photons.

Incorrect. Any theory that best explains all canon evidence is automatically superior to any theory that inferiorally explains canon visuals but has some throwaway line added to latch on to some official tidbit.

Difference in methodologies. I consider harmonizing as much official mateiral as possible to be superior. Picking and choosing official material to support viewpoints and calling the rest contradictions is too subjective for my tastes.

My stasis ideas are a way to try and still have the ICS2 interpretation with too slow of propogation rates yet still having gravity immunity.

I know.

You see, relative to the beam, within its own stasis affect, it will only be in the grav well as long as a normal c beam would be, thus it won't be affected by gravity much, just like a beam of light. I don't see any other way to fix blasters.

Your description goes in the wrong order as described by SotE and requires a kind of FTL transmission inside the stasis field, though. You see, the bolt, or disturbance, can't go from the back of the beam to the front of it without the disturbance propagating (via chain reaction, most likely) faster than c-velocity particles inside the stasis field. And if the disturbance propagates faster than the rest of the particles, that makes it going faster-than-light! If you can eliminate those problems without bringing new ones up, then I'd have less difficulty accepting it.

Also, what were these TIE clips?

Which ones? HDS posted clips on the first page that require that the bolts travel along a much faster invisible beam (assumed massless and lightspeed as per ICS2). You'll have to watch ANH for yourself to see the shots that can't have an invisible sustaining beam for the bolts. Both scenes consist of a TIE chasing an X-wing, viewed from behind, and firing several misses during the Battle of Yavin, having multiple volleys of bolts visible at the same time but on differen trajectories.

They're exotic particles, it seems, but still... Something that doesn't require gravity defying particles yet still explains everything else would be superior.

You're not listening. Anything that isn't near lightspeed with respect to the gravity well will follow a noticable parabolic arc. This is the reason for my stasis-contained lightspeed beam for slow speed bolts, Saxton's pulse on c beam for high speed bolts, and then the third idea, magic gravity-defying particles.

I don't see how that relates to what I just said. I am completely aware of your theory. It just breaks relativity with a FTL disturbance and follows the wrong order of events, so I don't like it in its current form.

Official is negligible at best and irrelevent at worst until all canon sources are explained. Especially if they're going to require stupidities such as plasma, and the unknown massless quanta (further referred to as "UMQ") somehow turning into enough ions to somehow give off just enough light. Furthermore, charged particles will not give off green light--same problem with plasma.

I'd prefer not to get into the subjectivity of picking and choosing which official statements to accept and which to ignore. It's too easy to find something that doesn't make sense at first glance, then cry "contradiction!" and ignore it. It's that same mentality that tries to ignore ICS2. Sure, official information can be wrong.. but most of the official references for turbolasers are vague enough to give lots of room to play around with.

Again. Until all canon visuals are explained, Official should be more or less ignored.

Then why even bother to incorporate ISC2 in your current theory?

[Illuminatus Primus]

ICS2 is a higher official source than SOTE or any of the usually cited bits.

Furthermore, the ICS2 explanation is a canon-based theory to begin w/.

I still think that the amount of energy needed to generate electrons from massless quanta is enormous--lighter weapons would be very faint. I doubt blasters would give off much light at all. Your suggestion is quite impossible.

Not to mention the idea of them spontaneously forming into particles w/ mass is dumb anyway.

Your revised theory is flawed because blasters too must be either pulses along a massless c beam or gravity-defying massive particles.

They cannot be massive particles.

[Mad]

ICS2 is a higher official source than SOTE or any of the usually cited bits.

Furthermore, the ICS2 explanation is a canon-based theory to begin w/.

Neither automatically invalidate other bits of info. If they can be worked together, then all the better.

I still think that the amount of energy needed to generate electrons from massless quanta is enormous--lighter weapons would be very faint.

Creating electrons from massless particles would be the opposite of M/AM annihilation of an electron an a positron. The energy required for each pair to be created would be about 3 * 10^-10 J. Granted, it adds up quickly as we get to macroscopic levels, but we don't know the ratio of particles that decay vs particles that don't decay. We do know the decay depletes the overall energy content of the beam, though (straight from ICS2), so it's has to be much more significant than simply emitting a small amount of light in the visible spectrum.

The visible light we see wouldn't even put a dent in the energy content of the weapons we're talking about! ICS2 says the decay does, so there must be more going on than simply conversion to photons.

Your suggestion is quite impossible.

But a disturbance that propagates along a massless beam, propagating faster than said beam is somehow possible?

It looks like we have two unworkable theories, then. I'm gonna keep refining mine, though.

Not to mention the idea of them spontaneously forming into particles w/ mass is dumb anyway.

Spontaniously? I said the decay was a chain reaction that propagates through the beam.

Your revised theory is flawed because blasters too must be either pulses along a massless c beam or gravity-defying massive particles.

Blasters can't be traveling along a massless c beam unless we use your theory, but your theory requires an FTL disturbance, so that can't work, either.

What's worse?

FTL disturbances and an inherent stasis effect that is never mentioned

or

gravity-defying massive particles (I've heard that Tibanna gas has been hinted at having antigravity properties, so there's precident for such particles) created throughas a result of a decay pattern which has already been hinted at (so decay patterns in TLs are precidented).

At least my theory relies on things that have been mentioned in conjunction with turbolaser weaponry before...

[The Silence and I]

What's the issue here? We see bolts flash as they pass shielded vessels, we see bolts do nothing as they pass shielded vessels, we see bolts flash after passing non-shielded objects, we see bolts flash after passing hard vacuum

Honestly, I cannot recall either of these things happening, please cite the material in which it occured.

In attack of the clones (during the asteroid chase) Jango's bolts went through an entire sequence were they flashed suddenly into a ball of light and dissapeared... Some did this close to the star-fighter, some far away, and others passed the fighter without flashing. Still others hit small asteroids--but this was visually different as a bright yellow streaking flashes of vapor were always present. This alone suggests the shields did not effect the bolts at range--as some got through un-effected.

Also, in TPM during the blockade run, some bolts appeared to flash (other flashes appeared to have no source bolts) along-side the shiny ship at a distance, but later other shots passed within a few meters without any bursting.

So,
(1) bolts can pass the shielded Shiny Ship from TMP without flashing (this is rock solid, see Marc-Xavier's (SP?) post on the first/second page).
(2) Bolts can flash when seemingly not effected by a shield in the asteroid scene in AOTC.
(3) Bolts can flash while passing the arguably shielded flying assault thingy in the clone battle (I am doing very poorly with names right now ) Note: I gave no specific example of this above because I think most everyone has seen or even debated on this, I know it came up in at least one anti-flak burst thread.

[Illuminatus Primus]

*snip*

You're confusing what I'm doing--further refinement of my theory is called for but I am not arguing it right now.

I'm feeling that electron production out of the quanta is extraneous when quanta to photons works fine. The idea of spontaneous matter generation just bugs me deeply.

[Mad]

But having a reaction convert into massive particles works well with other sources (and since I assume a chain reaction, it isn't spontanious -- something initiates the conversion). It also explains why the decay can deplete the energy content of the beam by any appreciable degree, as described by ICS2.

Decay directly to photons (or only photons) doesn't work very well unless we assume there's a massive amount of non-visible radiation being emitted. It also requires that we completely ignore every reference to charged particles in relation to the bolts (as well as mentionings of a decay into plasma). I'm not ready to simply throw out that much data when an energy-to-mass conversion offers a hope of explanation.

And since it, coupled with antigravity properties of Tibanna gas, also offers hope of rationalizing blaster bolt behavior, I think it holds promise. (Especially since it doesn't require effects that have never been applied to turbolaser or blaster behavior, such as stasis fields, which seem to be the only other remotely feasable explanation.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Alright; here's what I think is up:

The beams are always c--relative to their perspective. The bolts had somesort of space-time distortion inherent with them: the stasis affect. There is an inherent decay from the stasis "bubble" (bad description--stasis affect is inherent and decreases with distance from beam center). A pulse of higher decay travels slower relative to the beam; the stasis field's instability flows generally from head of beam to rear with distance. Parts of the beam are at differing intensities due to charge-up/discharge imperfections. At low yields, ie. common blasters, the short length of the bolt often means that the pulse rapidly traverses the beam and is a large area of the beam's length, making it difficult to differenciate between bolt and beam.

As the pulse flows down the beam of UMQ, occasionally quanta escape/decay from self-contained beam in electron-positron pairs. Most of these pairs annhiliate each other instantly--some escape and this "ionized marker" can often help identify beams on scanners.

The exotic beam has an automatic stasis affect--this can vary on a blaster's yield, range, design, and manufacturer. Greater yield inevitably "streteches out" the beam and weakens the beam's stasis affect. Laser and turbolaser cannon "spin" the beam to increase propogation rate without losing efficency. Heavy capital ship turbolasers nearly eliminate the stasis affect without any adverse affect on the beam's efficiency or firepower. However--differing yields can still affect beam propogation, thus the bolt does not always arrive when it is supposed to. Most lasers have high fractional c speeds. Many turbolasers travel at c.

Volumetric ray shields brake-down the beam of UMQ and absorb it into their dissipation and re-irradiation matrices. The breakdown affect often releases many electron-positron pairs which annhiliate each other in a flash of light near a vessel. These particle pairs are often circulated in the shield, sometimes giving the impression of a gaseous explosion--even where there is none. Near-misses are also sometimes subject to the shield's attempt at breaking down and absorbing the beam--usually this results in a harmless electron-positron annhiliation without the beam actually taxing the shields significantly or impacting the shield--the bolt will continue through. Depending on shield strength, spin and yield of beam, and which shield regions are most stressed or extended, sometimes quite near-misses completely pass by a vessel without generating an energy burst.

Heavy jamming systems (such as that belonging to the DS I) employ gravitational distortion affects which can interfere and disrupt low velocity beams, which lack sufficient energy or propogation velocity to be unaffected. This sometimes causes energy bolts to seemingly have incorrect or distorted trajectories. Jamming can heavily degrade enemy fighters' ability to harm hardened targets by reducing their affective range (evidenced by the rather close and manual "zeroing" used at Yavin Antilles speaks of during the X-Wing series). This often requires rather low-range and fixed-manual zeroing of the guns for a degree of compensation in such saturated ECM/space-time distortion-rich environments.

Here's where it gets unneccessarily funky:

Blaster/laser/turbolaser weapons are created by a burst of energy from a power generator or storage cell encountering a unique form of exotic matter known as Tibanna. Various forms of Tibanna serve multiple purposes. Spin-sealed tibanna is used to generate a massive amount of energy in a very brief moment. Traditional lasers and even grasers proved impractical for managing such massive amounts of energy. The exotic quanta that project the destructive force is self-contained and sustains a minimal spacetime warp generated by the gun and projected outward. Without this, the exotic quanta would not be stable and likely decay into megatons (or whatever the weapon's yield) of raw radiation in the weapon assembly. This affect, created to stabilize the beam also prevents gravity from affecting it due to stasis affects. Larger energy contents and complex "spinning" techniques employed by heavier weapons negate as much as possible of the stasis affect w/out degrading the weapons' stability. Relative to its own pocket of space-time, the beam always travels at c. The space-time component does not travel at c due to the fact that it is sustained by its own energy beam. In actuality, the space-time portion of the beam propogates at c but instantly dissipates except for that portion in line with the less-than-c propogating beam. The two components limit one another's real-world velocity and are dependent on energy content and spinning to lessen this.

The space-time component to the beam allows it to be fine-tuned or adjusted after barrel-leaving through the same method the component is generated. Han Solo's modified DL-44 did this in ANH, firing slightly off-axis to compensate for human error. TIE Fighters are equipped with laser cannons optimized for a wide degree of bolt-bending to allow for the high flexibility of off-axis fire. Targetting computers due this incessantly, and the continuous beam dish weapons use this to focus component beams into a tighter, easily manipulated continuous energy beam.

[Mad]

Much improved. A couple points:

The bolts had somesort of space-time distortion inherent them: the stasis affect.

I'd prefer an explanation without a stasis effect as it's never mentioned in any source I know of, so I'll continue to refine my theory. But a stasis effect doesn't immediately disqualify the theory.

the stasis field's instability flows generally from head of beam to rear with distance.

Good. This eliminates my FTL qualm. At longer ranges, we'd expect to see many more instances of damage before impact than we'd see at short range.

However, it does have the slight problem of SotE mentioning the invisible beam as coming after the ionized marker. (I assume it means the damaging portion of the invisible beam as coming after the marker is emitted with the start of the beam.)

At low yields, ie. common blasters, the short length of the bolt often means that the pulse rapidly traverses the beam and is a large area of the beam's length, making it difficult to differenciate between bolt and beam.

Um, in order for the bolt to stay near the head of beam, we'd have to have a more slowly propagating pulse for the blasters. That is, unless the beam is more powerful near the rear than at the beginning.

Having the beam be more powerful near the rear would also allow for bolt to start ahead of the damaging portion, then slide backwards towards it while in flight, allowing the SotE reference to work with no problems.

As the pulse flows down the beam of UMQ, occasionally quanta escape/decay from self-contained beam in electron-positron pairs. Most of these pairs annhiliate each other instantly--some escape and this "ionized marker" can often help identify beams on scanners.

This neatly ties in references to ions and plasma.

The rest also seems pretty good, right up to..

Here's where it gets unneccessarily funky:

<snip>

Kinda technobabbly feeling. Or it could be that it starts addressing some things I had the motivation to explore. But nothing jumps out at me as being wrong.

Anyway, I'll see what I can do to revise my theory in a bit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The stasis affect is the only way I can see of slowing down the beam and pulse propogation described in the ICS2 to be truly practical, esp. for blasters.

Its the only way to not have gravity-defying massive particles--which wouldn't quite be the same as TLs. This way everything has the same mechanism.

[Illuminatus Primus]

However, it does have the slight problem of SotE mentioning the invisible beam as coming after the ionized marker. (I assume it means the damaging portion of the invisible beam as coming after the marker is emitted with the start of the beam.)

I interpret this as meaning the massive ions trailing behind the fractional c beam.

Um, in order for the bolt to stay near the head of beam, we'd have to have a more slowly propagating pulse for the blasters. That is, unless the beam is more powerful near the rear than at the beginning.

Eh. I'll probably change it to that the pulse is slower because the stasis affect is not degraded by spinning or higher yield by blasters. Thanks for pointing out this oversight.

Having the beam be more powerful near the rear would also allow for bolt to start ahead of the damaging portion, then slide backwards towards it while in flight, allowing the SotE reference to work with no problems.

This is possible--good idea.

Kinda technobabbly feeling. Or it could be that it starts addressing some things I had the motivation to explore. But nothing jumps out at me as being wrong.

Trying to address Tibanna and such--ignore if you wish (its mostly irrelevent) except for the bottom part about beams adjusted after leaving the barrel.

Anyway, I'll see what I can do to revise my theory in a bit.

Alright.

[Mad]

My revised turbolaser/blaster theory is as follows:

First, turbolasers. A beam of massless particles is fired from the cannon, but without the power to do much damage to the intended target. After a short period of time (usually 1/8th a second, or 3 frames), the weapon has charged up enough and the beam releases the main punch of the shot.

The starter beam begins with a chain-reaction decay, called a "bolt," that ripples down the beam at sublight, starting at the head of the beam and propagating down to the rear relative to the massless particles. The bolt appears to travel forward because it's being carried along by the invisible beam. The targetting computers try to regulate the speed of the pulse by manipulating the energy level and intensity of the starter beam so that the pulse reaches the target just as the main power spike should hit the target. This timing is intentional and aids in keeping the beam trained on the target as it shows the operator when the power spike will hit the target.

This explains quite a number of oddities we've seen in the films: why there's a delay between firing an impact; why that delay is usually pretty consistent (longer delays for more powerful shots, shorter delays for weaker shots); why an A-wing could fly through a visible bolt with no damage (beam was still too weak to cause damage); why SotE describes the invisible damaging portion as coming after the visible portion (the main attack comes after the weapon has started firing); and why TIE fighter shots have changed direction in midflight as the fighter changes direction in certain occasions.

It also further explains why turbolasers have trouble hitting snubfighters at close range: the turret has to keep a bead on its target for about 1/8th a second to score a hit, and at close range that's a lot more movement.

The decay pulse is actually a two-stage decay. First, the massless particles decay into massive particles with antigravity properties. These antigravity properties are probably related to the use of "anti-gravitational Tibanna gas" in creating the beam. Perhaps some exotic particles (a type of quark?) that make up the atomic structure of Tibanna are recreated when the massless particles react as the chain-reaction washes over and convert into massive particles. This decay depletes the energy content of the beam, because it is, after all, an energy-to-mass conversion. The particles and Tibanna likely ignore gravity, or aren't affected by it as much as normal matter is. (It's tough to tell, since this property of Tibanna isn't elaborated on to my knowledge.) These new antigravity particles then break down into a small and diffuse cloud of high-energy charged subatomic particles (plasma) and photons "as the energy becomes incoherent." The released particles are too diffuse to do any real damage (the plasma may consist of both normal and anti-particles), and the photons are typically not energetic or numerous enough to be damaging.

"Flak bursts" occur when the decay pulse is disrupted by something (usually the target's shields), sometimes causing a burst of more decay. In any event, the diffuse plasma cloud is disrupted, creating a mostly harmless flash of light and explosion. The beam itself continues to be pumped out by the weapon the entire time.

Because blasters are fired by humans, having to hold the weapon on target for 1/8th or so of a second after recoil would make for a very inaccurate weapon. But blasters don't exhibit the expect effect of bolt redirection in midflight anyway. So it appears that they are actually that intermediate stage of decay (the intermediate decay stage allows this to occur while still keeping the basic principles of the weapons the same). Basically, the beam that is fired hasn't been charged up to the same level that larger weapons have. Since the intermediate decay, like Tibanna, ignores (or mostly ignores) gravity, there's no gravity drop as the particles travel. But because the beam isn't charged up to the level of larger weapons, blasters aren't as powerful as laser or turbolaser weaponry. (A full-powered turbolaser shot will require the short delay in order for a proper lightspeed beam to be emitted.)

The advantages of blasters are quicker target acquisition and firing when compared to turbolasers. In fact, TIEs have been observed firing bolts that don't redirect as the fighter maneuevers in some instances, yet they do redirect as the fighter turns in others. So it appears that some weapons may be able to switch between modes. The configuration could be chosen depending on combat circumstances. Bolt-mode would require less computer assistance and would be more effective in heavy jamming or intense dogfights at close range (no delay in firing). On the other hand, beam-mode would be deadly in head-to-head strafing runs, as it is much more powerful and accurate at longer ranges.

I think that covers most of the important stuff. The main advantage of this theory is that attempts to limit the introduction of new factors into turbolaser/blaster operation that have never been discussed before relating to those weapons.

I'll naturally try to clarify anything that doesn't make sense or add anything I might've left out.

References (some may not be directly addressed):

Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed.

The light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the energy beam, which reduces waste glow.

A gun's range also depends on its aiming precision and the time-lag required to detect and anticipate target motion at a distance. For example, a massive warship mounts small point-defense guns that trade power for quick aim, while heavier guns are effective against slow, distant, large targets.

Common blaster weapons use high-energy gas for ammunition, activated by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating componets as a coherent energy bolt. Inherent instabilities limit the ability to precisely aim a blaster bolt, but knowing one's weapon well can strengthen marksmanship. Plasma energy is dissipated as the bolt travels, limiting range as the energy as the energy becomes incoherent. Longer range is developed by longer blast tubes, which align the plasma carrier waves more closely through additional galven circuitry, lens crystals, or other collimating devices.

Cloud City is home to industrious citizens and advanced technology. Facilities throughout the city process for export the rare anti-gravitational Tibanna gas from the exotic atmoshpere of Bespin.

A hard green beam of light flashed between the two ships. The sighting ray of a big ship's cannon--you couldn't see the laser itself in vacuum, of course, but it followed the ionized marker you could see precisely.

He triggered the first pair of concussion missiles, knowing that unlike the laser cannon, they did not strike at the speed of light.

The final particle beam, or "bolt," contains high-energy particles that cause tremendous damage to anything they hit; the bolt's visible light is a harmless by-product of this reaction.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Blasters are energy weapons--they must include the pulse along a c beam. Furthermore this is backed up in canon again--Luke's hand is hit by a beam before the pulse arrives--thus the beam must be destructive and your claim of an "intermediate decay bolt" cannot be correct.

I doubt that the energy beams would decay to create matter as complex as plasma and in significant amounts.

The idea that TLs have to keep a bead on a target for extended periods is dubious in the extreme. This is because it is extreme unlikely and seemingly impossible for multiple reasons...

Lightspeed is the best solution to the problem of transit time-lag of shots fired in space battles of any respectable range.

Aside from considerations of time-lag, lightspeed weapons are practically essential for a ship to hit another ship in a normal space battle, considering the magnitude of the maximum accelerations that starships can achieve.

[Mad]

Blasters are energy weapons--they must include the pulse along a c beam. Furthermore this is backed up in canon again--Luke's hand is hit by a beam before the pulse arrives--thus the beam must be destructive and your claim of an "intermediate decay bolt" cannot be correct.

Um, the final quote on my references list call them particle beams. The particles are still invisible until they decay, so damage before impact still occurs. (The difference probably isn't noticable at the movie's framerate under most circumstances.)

With such low momentum, the particles do damage through thermal means, instead of kinetic.

I doubt that the energy beams would decay to create matter as complex as plasma and in significant amounts.

The Visual Dictionary says the beam degrades into plasma, so doubt has nothing to do with it. The plasma isn't enough to do any damage, though. The exotic particles, before they decay, do the damage.

The idea that TLs have to keep a bead on a target for extended periods is dubious in the extreme. This is because it is extreme unlikely and seemingly impossible for multiple reasons...

1/8th of a second is an "extended period"?

Lightspeed is the best solution to the problem of transit time-lag of shots fired in space battles of any respectable range.

Aside from considerations of time-lag, lightspeed weapons are practically essential for a ship to hit another ship in a normal space battle, considering the magnitude of the maximum accelerations that starships can achieve.

Which is why turbolaser beams propagate at c... but the charge-up time explains the delay that occurs 99% of the time even though they are c-velocity weapons.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You're not understanding my point--ICS2 says all energy weapons are pulses along a lightspeed massless beam. Your blaster is not. The beam has to travel at c--this is why I invented the stasis affect--so the ICS2 would still technically be right while slowing down the beam propogation so blasters make sense.

I don't think there's enough energy in a lot of bolts to generate visible clouds of plasma.

1/8 of a second is awhile considering the 1000s of G accelerations for these vessels. But I can't see any other explanation.

[Connor MacLeod]

The only *real* problems I can think of with rationalizing the massless theory are the SWTJ, which call blasters "Accelerated particles" combined with the packets of light/laser pulse effect, the EP 2 Visual Dictionary (Which reiterates the SWVD plasma theory in greater detail) which refer to clonetrooper weapons as plasma-based, and the TIE Fighter pocket manual (which is done by David West Reynolds, much like the Trilogy & EP1 ICS, the SWVD, and the Ep 1 and 2 VDs) - which calls THEM plasma (IIRC).

There's also STar by STar, which identifies the bolts from Han's blaster as a particle beam, and Darth Maul Shadow Hunter, which also identifies the blaster discharges as a particle beam. I think one of the "Tales from the mos Eisley cantina" stories involving the Shistavanaen Wolfman at the Battle of Endor implied that TIE guns were particle beams as well.

This is balanced by many of the "lightspeed" references that have cropped up, of course, both in the past and present.

My conclusion has largely been that the term "blaster" tends to encompass many different "kinds" of energy weapon - massless and massive both - I believe that this is true of the SDI "directed energy weapons" concept (which encompassed both laser and particle beam weapons.) I dont see where one can assume that ALL Energy weapons by definition must be massless, and it seems that one cannot be so inflexible as to assume so for all weapons, given the information.

[His Divine Shadow]

In attack of the clones (during the asteroid chase) Jango's bolts went through an entire sequence were they flashed suddenly into a ball of light and dissapeared... Some did this close to the star-fighter, some far away, and others passed the fighter without flashing

Well the process is random, and the shield is a true field effect as I've been under the impression of from Saxton, it just very rapidly decreases in power(exponential decrease it would seem like), bolts could be affected very far from the fighter, and I don't remember a scene where the bolts

Still others hit small asteroids--but this was visually different as a bright yellow streaking flashes of vapor were always present.

I've been through the scene, I do not see any small asteroid impacts, I see flashes here and there but I do not see asteroid impacts, please provide screenshots.

This alone suggests the shields did not effect the bolts at range--as some got through un-effected

Seems you are using a black & white fallacy, either "do or do not" as yoda would say, this is fallacious, there is no precedent that says it has to happen or it's false.

It's an utterly random process and does not have to follow any such artificial rules, it only follows probability, the chances of such flashes are higher the closer one gets to a shield, but not a fixed law.

Also, in TPM during the blockade run, some bolts appeared to flash (other flashes appeared to have no source bolts) along-side the shiny ship at a distance, but later other shots passed within a few meters without any bursting.

And?
Again, you perpetuate the black and white fallacy, bolts can pass close and not burst, this is more unlikely, bolts can pass very far away and burst, but that is unlikely, but it's not a rule.

[Mad]

You're not understanding my point--ICS2 says all energy weapons are pulses along a lightspeed massless beam.

It doesn't explicitly say "all energy weapons." It's generalizing for capital ship weapons, as far as I know.

Your blaster is not.

Where has a blaster not been described as a particle beam? (Something speaking in the context of capship weapons doesn't count -- those aren't blasters.) As Connor pointed out, a number of sources describe blasters as hybrid particle/energy weapons. Presumably, that means particles doing damage through thermal means (perhaps by releasing a discharge of photons on impact).

Connor's mentioning of TIEs as using particle beams is support for my theory that the TIE guns can use the blaster mode, depending on the circumstances, as I described in my theory. (TIE bolts have been observed displaying the traits of both bolts along carrier beams and behavior consistent with that of blasters.)

The beam has to travel at c--this is why I invented the stasis affect--so the ICS2 would still technically be right while slowing down the beam propogation so blasters make sense.

That both ignores references to particle beams and invents something that has never been mentioned before in relation to lasers or blasters. I'm trying to stick as closely as possible to as many different descriptions as I can.

I don't think there's enough energy in a lot of bolts to generate visible clouds of plasma.

I never said the plasma was visible. The plasma wouldn't glow green, as some blasters do, anyway. The visible portion is photons emitted by the particles. The plasma is a very diffuse cloud of charged subatomic particles of decay.

1/8 of a second is awhile considering the 1000s of G accelerations for these vessels. But I can't see any other explanation.

At long ranges, keeping the weapon trained on the target for that long shouldn't be too difficult. It's only at short ranges where the turret has to modify its angle a lot more where it can become a problem, which is why we see reduced accuracy at close ranges in the movies.

[The Silence and I]

HDS, I think I may have some useful screen shots here. I lack any way to get my own, and couldn't host them anyway, so I had to make do with what I could find:



This image shows an intact blast passing Obi-Wan's fighter very close. If shield interaction isn't black and white, then you would think the probability is certainly high here, although I guess it is not necessarily going to flash into light (If shields screw with bolts dozens of meters away I find it hard to accept that they won't only a few meters away--but for now I will take your word for it) according to standing theory.



This is a very useful image. It shows two bolts having already flashed into balls of light in the lower middle and lower right. Closer to slave I, it shows three areas of what appear to be glowing plasma/rock dust. These indicate the remains of small asteroids. It seems some of the flashes were caused by asteroid-blaster relationships. It isn't really relevant, but you wanted to see evidence for it.



This image is one I don't remember from the film (watched it at about 1/4 speed several times looking for flack bursts, evidence for firepower etc.) but it appears to be a larger asteroid just after it was hit. Notice how yellow and bright it is compared to the reddish duller glow caused when the bolts just flash. More evidence you can tell if a flash was due to hitting an asteroid or if it was due to the strange shield-bolt interactions. Frankly, this looks more like a sonic charge, but is the wrong color, and isn't in the right part of the chase-oh well.



I included this because it does not speak well of targeting computers. The two ships are what? Two dozen meters away, if that? And Slave I's guns are pointing too low. Wonderful targeting computers



I don't know if this will change anything, but Slave I's guns are clearly able to fire in "blaster mode" ala Mad's theory

HDS wrote:

Seems you are using a black & white fallacy, either "do or do not" as yoda would say, this is fallacious, there is no precedent that says it has to happen or it's false.

But Yoda rules!! If a field can routinely effect something at range, then why would it fail to effect something at a short distance, where the field is just a *bit* stronger more than once or twice--which is seen, I just can't prove it myself right now.

(Edited in the last paragraph)

[His Divine Shadow]

This image shows an intact blast passing Obi-Wan's fighter very close. If shield interaction isn't black and white, then you would think the probability is certainly high here, although I guess it is not necessarily going to flash into light (If shields screw with bolts dozens of meters away I find it hard to accept that they won't only a few meters away--but for now I will take your word for it) according to standing theory

Bolts have before passed that close without bursting so I don't see the problem.
And we do see bolts bursting that are just as close later on.

http://www.benandgrover.com/ep2/trailers/m037.jpg

This is a very useful image. It shows two bolts having already flashed into balls of light in the lower middle and lower right. Closer to slave I, it shows three areas of what appear to be glowing plasma/rock dust. These indicate the remains of small asteroids. It seems some of the flashes were caused by asteroid-blaster relationships. It isn't really relevant, but you wanted to see evidence for it.

Actually, those came from earlier hits very close to the shield, not any stray asteroids.

http://www.benandgrover.com/ep2/trailers/m004.jpg

This image is one I don't remember from the film (watched it at about 1/4 speed several times looking for flack bursts, evidence for firepower etc.) but it appears to be a larger asteroid just after it was hit. Notice how yellow and bright it is compared to the reddish duller glow caused when the bolts just flash. More evidence you can tell if a flash was due to hitting an asteroid or if it was due to the strange shield-bolt interactions. Frankly, this looks more like a sonic charge, but is the wrong color, and isn't in the right part of the chase-oh well.

I don't see this one in the film either.

http://www.benandgrover.com/ep2/trailers/m005.jpg

I included this because it does not speak well of targeting computers. The two ships are what? Two dozen meters away, if that? And Slave I's guns are pointing too low. Wonderful targeting computers

The Slave-1 is firing it's midship guns, those have less accuracy than the blaster cannons further down, they might be fixed.

I don't know if this will change anything, but Slave I's guns are clearly able to fire in "blaster mode" ala Mad's theory

Separate beams then?
There are so many theories going around I am not sure which one you refer to.

But Yoda rules!! If a field can routinely effect something at range, then why would it fail to effect something at a short distance, where the field is just a *bit* stronger more than once or twice--which is seen, I just can't prove it myself right now.

The field is alot stronger nearer the hull, it seems to drop off in strenght very quickly, this might have to do with the metallic hull being used for conducting the shield energies, so they might only be really effective close to the hull and drop off very very much further out.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, unlike other shots, there seem to be alot of short lived particulate matter occuring after the bursts, this might be due to the asteroid field and many small pieces of debris gettin in the way.

[The Silence and I]

Also, unlike other shots, there seem to be alot of short lived particulate matter occuring after the bursts, this might be due to the asteroid field and many small pieces of debris gettin in the way.

That is what I have concluded. More so as not all the flashes leave this particulate matter.

HDS wrote:

Quote:
http://www.benandgrover.com/ep2/trailers/m037.jpg

This is a very useful image. It shows two bolts having already flashed into balls of light in the lower middle and lower right. Closer to slave I, it shows three areas of what appear to be glowing plasma/rock dust. These indicate the remains of small asteroids. It seems some of the flashes were caused by asteroid-blaster relationships. It isn't really relevant, but you wanted to see evidence for it.


Actually, those came from earlier hits very close to the shield, not any stray asteroids.

I haven't compared the shots I found with what is in the movie, but you may be right. At any rate, I remember several bright yellow flashes--that leave such remains--occuring very near Obi-wan's fighter and seen from the vantage point of his cockpit. These seemed like the remains of very small asteroids that just got in the way. So those earlier hits could have been against asteroids as I thought they were, just close to the shield.

HDS wrote:

Quote:
But Yoda rules!! If a field can routinely effect something at range, then why would it fail to effect something at a short distance, where the field is just a *bit* stronger more than once or twice--which is seen, I just can't prove it myself right now.


The field is alot stronger nearer the hull, it seems to drop off in strenght very quickly, this might have to do with the metallic hull being used for conducting the shield energies, so they might only be really effective close to the hull and drop off very very much further out.

I understand this part. What I don't get is why shots can be disrupted all of 30 or 40 meters behind the fighter, yet some can get through all the way to the cockpit or even keep going beyond the fighter.
Put another way:
You are saying the shield has a weak field effect that follows the inverse square law. For example, an ordinary magnet. Laser bolts can be disrupted by this field at a certain distance. But sometimes a similar bolt can pass all the way alongside the fighter, unaffected. Try this with a magnet: Point the north poles of two magnets at each other and move them slowly closer. The distance at which you first feel the repulsion represents the normal range for bolt disruption. Move them closer. Push them just passed each other, to represent a bolt skimming the fighter. It is hard to get it close, isn't it! If a tiny amount of force will affect the bolt, why not such a greater amount?

That was the point of my question.

[His Divine Shadow]

I understand this part. What I don't get is why shots can be disrupted all of 30 or 40 meters behind the fighter, yet some can get through all the way to the cockpit or even keep going beyond the fighter.
Put another way:
You are saying the shield has a weak field effect that follows the inverse square law. For example, an ordinary magnet. Laser bolts can be disrupted by this field at a certain distance. But sometimes a similar bolt can pass all the way alongside the fighter, unaffected. Try this with a magnet: Point the north poles of two magnets at each other and move them slowly closer. The distance at which you first feel the repulsion represents the normal range for bolt disruption. Move them closer. Push them just passed each other, to represent a bolt skimming the fighter. It is hard to get it close, isn't it! If a tiny amount of force will affect the bolt, why not such a greater amount?

No, not an ordinary field no, it drops off much more drastically than that, it seems to be strong only in very close proximity to the hull, which I believe is said to act as a conductor for shield energies, they might work as some kind of medium that keeps the shield strong very close to the hull.

Also, angles at which the bolts approach might also be important when it comes how likely partial degradation(bursting) will be, also, when bursting, not all the energy of the bolt goes into it, as is clearly observed, it might be likely that the bolt is still intact(as we've seen before after a burst) or maybe it degenerates into light that travels along the same directiona as the bolt was going, kinda like a normal laser, or the bolt quanta is intact but the glow dissapears for whatever reason.

I'm just theorizing now ofcourse.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You're not understanding my point--ICS2 says all energy weapons are pulses along a lightspeed massless beam.

It doesn't explicitly say "all energy weapons." It's generalizing for capital ship weapons, as far as I know.

You can spin this any which way you want but it meant energy weapons. Not turbolasers or laser cannon--the capital ship weapons.

It means energy weapons. And correspondance with Saxton reveals he reached this conclusion in part because of evidence of pre-bolt damage in TPM, and ROTJ from blasters.

Not only is the quote clear, but the authors intent is clear--all blaster type weapons obey the ICS2 intepretation.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There's also STar by STar, which identifies the bolts from Han's blaster as a particle beam, and Darth Maul Shadow Hunter, which also identifies the blaster discharges as a particle beam. I think one of the "Tales from the mos Eisley cantina" stories involving the Shistavanaen Wolfman at the Battle of Endor implied that TIE guns were particle beams as well.

All beams, massless or massive....are particle beams.