Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
It's not about if Trump follows the orders.Solauren wrote: 2025-06-09 06:14pm And the odds of Trump respecting a court order he disagrees with?
Zero.
I sincerely hope the Military balks at the orders. I sincerely hope the whole DOD turns to Trump and tells him "No!" to his face.bilateralrope wrote: 2025-06-10 03:34amIt's not about if Trump follows the orders.Solauren wrote: 2025-06-09 06:14pm And the odds of Trump respecting a court order he disagrees with?
Zero.
It's about if the National Guard and Marines will follow orders after a court has declared them illegal.
He doesn't need the imagination if someone suggests it to him, and he decides he likes the idea.Zaune wrote: 2025-06-10 05:44pm I don't think he's got the imagination to come up with that by himself, but otherwise it's disturbingly plausible. Even if adding a lot of disillusioned ex-soldiers with a grudge against the new regime and very little to lose to the equation doesn't strike me as a great idea if you have pretensions to tyranny.
Hopefully that leaves Trump with a military that doesn't know how to use much of its weaponry.Solauren wrote: 2025-06-10 05:06pm Could be what he wants.
Get rid of the ones that will not obey him, and cause moral issues. Start to 'rebuild', by lowering recruiting standards, so that low-end thugs the military won't take right now, start swelling the ranks.
All loyal to Trump for 'giving them the chance!'
"Quartermaster" and "Entrepeneur" have always been synonymous. It's just a matter of how much gets sold on the side. The one thing all military guys I've ever known have a handle on, no matter how dumb they are at anything else, is knowing how to use the weapons. That is a guarantee.bilateralrope wrote: 2025-06-11 08:06am
Hopefully that leaves Trump with a military that doesn't know how to use much of its weaponry.
Or how to notice when things go missing from armories.
When I say 'weapon', I'm talking about everything. From the guns and grenades, which they probably still will know how to use. Up to nukes and warships, which aren't as easy to operate.Raw Shark wrote: 2025-06-11 10:33am"Quartermaster" and "Entrepeneur" have always been synonymous. It's just a matter of how much gets sold on the side. The one thing all military guys I've ever known have a handle on, no matter how dumb they are at anything else, is knowing how to use the weapons. That is a guarantee.bilateralrope wrote: 2025-06-11 08:06am
Hopefully that leaves Trump with a military that doesn't know how to use much of its weaponry.
Or how to notice when things go missing from armories.
An aircraft carrier has a staff of about 25,000. It has its own barbershop and a bowling alley. One of those guys knows how to direct air traffic.bilateralrope wrote: 2025-06-11 10:45am When I say 'weapon', I'm talking about everything. From the guns and grenades, which they probably still will know how to use. Up to nukes and warships, which aren't as easy to operate.
While some older aircraft carriers, like the USS Midway, had areas repurposed as "bowling alleys" for recreation, modern carriers don't have dedicated bowling alleys. The "bowling alleys" on older carriers were often spaces designed for other purposes, like parachute inspection. Instead, modern carriers offer a variety of recreational activities, including gyms, movie theaters, libraries, and opportunities for sports and games.Raw Shark wrote: 2025-06-11 10:51amAn aircraft carrier has a staff of about 25,000. It has its own barbershop and a bowling alley. One of those guys knows how to direct air traffic.bilateralrope wrote: 2025-06-11 10:45am When I say 'weapon', I'm talking about everything. From the guns and grenades, which they probably still will know how to use. Up to nukes and warships, which aren't as easy to operate.
I'm not really arguing here, just saying that if the military goes bad it could go real bad.
Bowling allies generally require machinary, dedicated power etc, and doesn't provide that much of a workout compared to other sports.Batman wrote: 2025-06-11 03:59pm Um-wouldn't a bowling alley kinda BE an opportunity for sports?
And where's the 25,000 number from? Unless that includes harbour personell from when they're docked or during construction that's more than 4 times their regular crew. 25,000 sounds like a Star Destroyer somewhere halfway between a Victory and an Imperator.
I will admit to speaking from possibly outdated information here: Both of my grandfathers served in the US Navy in WWII. One of 'em shot a dolphin off the coast of New Zealand, once with a 25mm deck gun (which he said was an impulse thing that he felt bad about). Interesting couple of guys. Wish I had more time to know them.
If there's one thing a CVN has more than enough of it's power. Also most field sports need WAY more space than a bowling alley. Note I wasn't saying a bowling alley would be a GOOD idea for a sports opportunity on a carrier, just that it would BE one.Solauren wrote: 2025-06-11 06:48pmBowling allies generally require machinary, dedicated power etc, and doesn't provide that much of a workout compared to other sports.Batman wrote: 2025-06-11 03:59pm Um-wouldn't a bowling alley kinda BE an opportunity for sports?
And where's the 25,000 number from? Unless that includes harbour personell from when they're docked or during construction that's more than 4 times their regular crew. 25,000 sounds like a Star Destroyer somewhere halfway between a Victory and an Imperator.
By comparison, most other sports need only a bit of equipment and space.
Bit of a difference.
The 'Essex'es (the biggest WWII carriers) had a crew complement of under 3,000, and eveen the 'Midway's (which were designed during WWII but didn't deploy until shortly after had barely 4,200. The largest crew complement for a Nimitz I've seen is 6,600.Raw Shark wrote: 2025-06-12 05:38amI will admit to speaking from possibly outdated information here: Both of my grandfathers served in the US Navy in WWII. One of 'em shot a dolphin off the coast of New Zealand, once with a 25mm deck gun (which he said was an impulse thing that he felt bad about). Interesting couple of guys. Wish I had more time to know them.
That's what the Insurrection Act is for, but Trump isn't using the authority of the Insurrection Act, but rather Title 10, which requires the orders to issue through the governor.Ralin wrote: 2025-06-09 08:40pm'What if the governor is part of the rebellion or possible rebellion' seems like an obvious issue with that.Trump has cited a legal provision that allows him to mobilise federal troops when there is ”a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States.”
But Newsom said he believed the president was required to coordinate with the state’s governor before ordering such a deployment.
Well, I stand corrected. I'll forgive my grandpas for exaggerating; they were traumatized by the whole thing. (The dolphin story was meant to hint that they had no fucking idea what they were doing, if that wasn't clear)Batman wrote: 2025-06-12 05:28pm The 'Essex'es (the biggest WWII carriers) had a crew complement of under 3,000, and eveen the 'Midway's (which were designed during WWII but didn't deploy until shortly after had barely 4,200. The largest crew complement for a Nimitz I've seen is 6,600.
It sounds like they are very aware of what Trump is trying to use them for here. While also remembering that their loyalty is to the US, not to Trump.Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
Thu 12 Jun 2025 11.00 BST
Several service members told advocacy groups they felt like pawns in a political game and assignment was unnecessary
California national guards troops and marines deployed to Los Angeles to help restore order after days of protest against the Trump administration have told friends and family members they are deeply unhappy about the assignment and worry their only meaningful role will be as pawns in a political battle they do not want to join.
Three different advocacy organisations representing military families said they had heard from dozens of affected service members who expressed discomfort about being drawn into a domestic policing operation outside their normal field of operations. The groups said they have heard no countervailing opinions.
“The sentiment across the board right now is that deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for,” said Sarah Streyder of the Secure Families Initiative, which represents the interests of military spouses, children and veterans.
“Families are scared not just for their loved ones’ safety, although that’s a big concern, but also for what their service is being used to justify.”
Chris Purdy of the Chamberlain Network, whose stated mission is to “mobilize and empower veterans to protect democracy”, said he had heard similar things from half a dozen national guard members. “Morale is not great, is the quote I keep hearing,” he said.
The marines and the California national guard did not respond to invitations to comment.
Trump has taken the unusual step of ordering 4,000 national guard members to Los Angeles without the consent of California’s governor, Gavin Newsom, saying that the city risked being “obliterated” by violent protesters without them. Earlier this week, he also activated 700 marines from the Twentynine Palms base two hours’ drive to the east, describing Los Angeles as a “trash heap” that was in danger of burning to the ground.
In reality, the anti-Trump protests – called first in response to aggressive federal roundups of undocumented immigrants, then in anger at the national guard deployment – have been largely peaceful and restricted to just a few blocks around downtown federal buildings. The Los Angeles police have made hundreds of arrests in response to acts of violence and vandalism around the protests, and the city’s mayor, Karen Bass, has instituted a night-time curfew – all with minimal input from the federal authorities.
At the largest demonstration since Trump first intervened, last Sunday, the national guard was hemmed into a staging area by Los Angeles police cruisers and played almost no role in crowd control. Since then, its service members have been deployed to guard buildings and federal law enforcement convoys conducting immigration sweeps. The marines, who arrived on Wednesday, are expected to play a similar function, with no powers of arrest.
Newsom has described the deployment as “a provocation, not just an escalation” and accused the White House of mistreating the service members it was activating. A widely circulated photograph, later confirmed as authentic by the Pentagon, showed national guard members sleeping on a concrete loading dock floor without bedding, and the San Francisco Chronicle reported that the troops arrived with no lodging, insufficient portable toilets and no funds for food or water.
A pair of YouGov polls published on Tuesday show public disapproval of both the national guard and marines deployments, as well as disapproval of Trump’s immigrant deportation policies. A Washington Post poll published on Wednesday came up with similar findings, but with slightly narrower margins.
Active service members are prohibited by law from speaking publicly about their work. But Streyder, of the Secure Families Initiative, said she had heard dozens of complaints indirectly through their families. She had also seen a written comment passed along to her organization from a national guard member who described the assignment as “shitty” – particularly compared with early secondments to help with wildfire relief or, during the Covid pandemic, vaccination outreach.
“Both of those experiences were uncomplicatedly positive, a contribution back to the community,” Streyder described the message as saying. “This is quite the opposite.”
According to Janessa Goldbeck, a Marine Corps veteran who runs the Vet Voice Foundation, the feeling was similar among some of the troops being sent from Twentynine Palms.
“Among all that I spoke with, the feeling was that the marines are being used as political pawns, and it strains the perception that marines are apolitical,” Goldbeck said. “Some were concerned that the marines were being set up for failure. The overall perception was that the situation was nowhere at the level where marines were necessary.”
The advocates said it was important to draw a distinction between the personal political preferences of service members, many if not most of whom voted for Trump last November, and the higher principle that military personnel should not get involved in politics or politically motivated missions that blur lines of responsibility with civilian agencies.
“We tend to be uniquely apolitical, as an institution and with each other,” Streyder said. “The military is a tool that should be used as a last resort, not a first response … It does not feel that the tool is being calibrated accurately to the situation.”
The discontent may not be limited to California. In Texas, where the governor, Greg Abbott, called out the national guard on Wednesday in San Antonio, Austin and other cities expecting anti-Trump protests, guardsmen have a history of feeling poorly treated in the workplace if not outright misused, Purdy of the Chamberlain Network said.
After Abbott requisitioned the guard in 2021 to help police the Mexican border – a controversial policy codenamed Operation Lone Star – there were bitter complaints among guard members about the length and nature of an assignment that largely duplicated the work of the federal border patrol. Several guardsmen took their own lives.
The LA operations are also sparking safety concerns because of complications inherent in pairing military and domestic police officers, advocates say, since they are trained very differently and use different vocabulary to handle emergency situations. In one infamous episode during the 1992 Los Angeles riots – the last time the military were called out to restore order in southern California – a police officer on patrol turned to his marines counterparts and said “cover me”, meaning be ready with your weapon to make sure I stay safe.
To the marines, though, “cover me” meant open fire immediately, which they did, unloading more than 200 M16 rounds into a house where the police had a tip about a possible domestic abuser. By sheer luck, nobody was hurt.
CJ Chivers, a New York Times reporter who was with the marines in Los Angeles in 1992 and witnessed the tail-end of this near-calamity, wrote years later of his mixed feelings about the assignment: “The Marines’ presence in greater Los Angeles … felt unnecessary,” he said. “I’d like to say we understood the context of the role we were given … But domestic crowd control had never been our specialty.”
Streyder and the other advocates concurred. “Domestic law enforcement and the military are entirely separate functions, manned by separate people who have been given separate training, who come from different cultures,” Streyder said. “As military families, we rely implicitly on that separation being honored and remaining clear.”
Arresting and attempting to deport members of the other teams is one way for the US team to win. Unless they do the same to members of their team.The international soccer tournament kicks off in Florida. Non-American citizens attending have been told to carry proof of their legal status.
June 14, 2025, 10:24 AM GMT+12 / Updated June 14, 2025, 12:13 PM GMT+12
By Ja'han Jones
The Trump administration’s anti-immigrant crackdown is casting a pall over the FIFA Club World Cup soccer tournament kicking off in Florida this weekend.
The Club World Cup is an international tournament that features some of the world’s top professional soccer clubs. The United States is hosting it this year, with the first game scheduled for Saturday in Miami Gardens.
On Tuesday, U.S. Customs and Border Protection tweeted that it will be “suited and booted and ready to provide security for the first round of games.” It later deleted the tweet without explanation. And ICE told NBC News 6 in Miami that all non-American citizens will need to carry proof of their legal status.
When asked to clarify that comment, an ICE spokesperson told The Miami Herald in a statement: “As is customary for an event of this magnitude with national security implications, ICE will be working alongside our Department of Homeland Security and Department of Justice partners to help ensure the safety and security of the event.”
As the Herald noted, CBP’s presence at major sporting events is not uncommon. For instance, the agency promoted its participation during the Super Bowl in New Orleans earlier this year.
But the remark from ICE about proving legal status and the now-deleted CBP tweet against the backdrop of Trump administration’s anti-immigration crackdown have raised concerns among some soccer fans.
It’s as if the government is warning attendees to keep their “freedom papers” on hand to avoid harassment from Trump’s immigration officials, whose crackdown has already ensnared American citizens and produced disturbing images, like that of ICE agents chasing farmworkers through a California field.
Some people in heavily-Latino, Trump-friendly Miami-Dade County may indeed choose to forgo this event — no matter their citizenship status — rather than potentially subject themselves to the administration’s xenophobic scrutiny. The Wall Street Journal recently reported, citing people familiar with the matter, on efforts by Trump White House adviser Stephen Miller to have federal agents “just go out there and arrest illegal aliens” at places like 7-Eleven and The Home Depot, where undocumented laborers have, at times, looked for work.
“Keeping President Trump’s promise to deport illegal aliens is something the administration takes seriously,” a White House spokesperson told the Journal.
The apparent plan to confirm attendees’ legal status at a soccer match seems like a similar attempt by the Trump administration to cast a net in a place where immigrants are likely to be. And creating uncertainty around the event surely won't help with reports on slow-moving ticket sales for the tournament.
In a recent discussion on “The Dan Le Batard Show” podcast hosted by sports journalist Dan Le Batard, soccer reporter Tom Bogert talked about the fear among some attendees. The discussion begins around the 3:20 mark below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haO4j0DB8Rg
Holy shit, they're not even MARCHING in ORDER! They're just strolling along looking bored as shit!
