Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-04-03 08:17pm

In other words... modern aviation accidents tend to occur at the end of a chain of events and are multifactorial.

Even so... multiple AoA sensors might have been a good thing rather than relying on just one.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-04-04 06:32pm

Definitely- how difficult would it be to retrofit existing aircraft with additional sensors?
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-04-04 06:46pm

Impossible for me to say, I'm not an engineer. But it certainly should be possible.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Luke Starkiller » 2019-04-04 06:59pm

The aircraft already has multiple AoA sensors, for some reason Boeing didn't see the need to have both feed into MCAS. It is a software fix to add that functionality at this point.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Beowulf » 2019-04-05 04:45am

Broomstick wrote:
2019-04-03 03:54pm
Latest report from the flight data recorder information is that the two Ethiopian pilots DID, in fact, follow proper shut-down procedures for the MCAS. Then it turned on again. Not yet determined if they pilots did that (although it seems unlikely) or the software decided to reboot itself.

Wow.

The final report on this is going to be interesting.....
The proper shut-down procedures for MCAS physically disconnects the power to the motors that MCAS uses. If it was reactivated after they turned it off, then they must have turned the power switches back on.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-04-05 04:48am

Luke Starkiller wrote:
2019-04-04 06:59pm
The aircraft already has multiple AoA sensors, for some reason Boeing didn't see the need to have both feed into MCAS. It is a software fix to add that functionality at this point.
If that's the case then someone at Boeing is a fucking dumb-ass and should be fired and never permitted to design/build/touch an airplane again.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2019-04-05 05:09am

Broomstick wrote:
2019-04-05 04:48am
Luke Starkiller wrote:
2019-04-04 06:59pm
The aircraft already has multiple AoA sensors, for some reason Boeing didn't see the need to have both feed into MCAS. It is a software fix to add that functionality at this point.
If that's the case then someone at Boeing is a fucking dumb-ass and should be fired and never permitted to design/build/touch an airplane again.
No don't worry Broomstick, they also included an "AoA disagree light" that would flash if one of the sensors registered different information than the other.

I mean, not like "included" included, more like "included as an optional addon for $20,000" which these 3rd world airlines didn't have money to purchase.

https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... an-option/

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Jub » 2019-04-05 05:21am

Dominus Atheos wrote:
2019-04-05 05:09am
No don't worry Broomstick, they also included an "AoA disagree light" that would flash if one of the sensors registered different information than the other.

I mean, not like "included" included, more like "included as an optional addon for $20,000" which these 3rd world airlines didn't have money to purchase.

https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... an-option/
That could partially explain why the two crashes happened with aircraft operated in 3rd world countries while in the US, there were similar issues that didn't result in crashes. I'd imagine that US pilot training standards are also higher than those in other less well off nations.

Also, I know that margins are thin for airlines, but skimping on safety features just because they aren't required by regulators is pretty scummy. Boeing not including them in the base cost is also scummy but at least they offered them.

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Luke Starkiller » 2019-04-05 05:07pm

Broomstick wrote:
2019-04-05 04:48am
Luke Starkiller wrote:
2019-04-04 06:59pm
The aircraft already has multiple AoA sensors, for some reason Boeing didn't see the need to have both feed into MCAS. It is a software fix to add that functionality at this point.
If that's the case then someone at Boeing is a fucking dumb-ass and should be fired and never permitted to design/build/touch an airplane again.
It's stupider than that (source): "At the press conference, Boeing defended the original design, saying that making MCAS rely on one of two sensors (in effect, creating a single point of failure) was acceptable as long as recovery “can be quickly performed by a trained pilot using established procedures.”


and (source): "Boeing’s position, endorsed by the FAA, has been that because MCAS is only supposed to trigger in extreme circumstances—high angles of attack and accelerated stalls—that additional pilot training was not necessary. The company has also said that it assumed that based on their existing training on earlier models pilots would recognize the erroneous nose-down commands and hit cutoff switches that would disable the system. "
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-04-05 06:54pm

Jub wrote:
2019-04-05 05:21am
I'd imagine that US pilot training standards are also higher than those in other less well off nations.
Actually, quite a few "third world countries" outsource their pilot training to the US - flying is less expensive in the US that most other nations, and there is (relatively speaking) a lot of air ports and flight schools. So quite a few third world pilots are, in fact, US trained. The big difference is that third world airlines often have lower requirements for both pilots and maintenance.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-04-30 02:41pm

The CEO of Boeing defended the company's safety record and declined to take any more than partial blame for two deadly crashes of its best-selling plane.

Chairman and CEO Dennis Muilenburg took reporters' questions for the first time since accidents involving the Boeing 737 Max in Indonesia and Ethiopia killed 346 people and plunged Boeing into its deepest crisis in years.

Mr Muilenburg said that Boeing followed the same design and certification process it has always used to build safe planes, and he denied that the Max was rushed to market.

"As in most accidents, there are a chain of events that occurred," he said, referring to the Lion Air crash on October 29 and the March 10 crash of an Ethiopian Airlines Max.

"It's not correct to attribute that to any single item."

The news conference, held after Boeing's annual meeting in Chicago, came as new questions have arisen around the Max, which has been grounded worldwide since mid-March.
Link.
In essence, the "disagree signal" feature was an optional extra that hadn't been fitted on the aircraft in question, now Boeing has agreed to install it as standard and retrofit existing aircraft to incorporate this feature.
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Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX model involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash banned from European airspace.

Post by K. A. Pital » 2019-05-20 08:25am

Where is Starglider when this happens, heh? Tireless lover of Boeing, the smart (and, turns out, manslaughter-negligent) alternative to the big bad inefficient Airbus from EuSSR?

I feel he is missing here. :lol:
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