You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-27 01:55pm

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2019-01-27 12:05pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:An 1860s army has zero counters to hovercraft gunships. Zero.
High-angled mortars firing grapeshot might be an effective counter, depending on how low the gunships have to go to attack ground targets.
Maybe, but I'm not confident of 19th. Century artillery's ability to target something as mobile as a gunship.
As I recall, only two Confederates were executed, a Swiss national and a poor, politically-unconnected hillbilly.
And fuckers like Lee became national heroes.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-27 06:58pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:And fuckers like Lee became national heroes,
Cause he was Anglo-Saxon white. And American. And the scion of two of America's first families. What, you thought this was the land of liberty and justice for all?
Maybe, but I'm not confident of 19th. Century artillery's ability to target something as mobile as a gunship.
That's the thing with grapeshot, or even chainshot. All one really has to do is fill the air with enough flying crap, and even a Skynet gunship will find itself hard-pressed to survive. Especially if you have several mortars loaded in this fashion, firing en masse.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-27 07:45pm

What's the range on Skynets energy weapons?

That would affect if anything can even hit the gunships. I mean, if the Aerial HK is 200 feet up, and travelling and capable of aiming and hitting accurately at full speed, could anyone even aim to hit it?
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-27 09:36pm

Don't modern helicopter gunships engage from a distance of miles? Far enough for their engines to be inaudible? I can't imagine a Skynet gunship would have any troubles whatsoever from jerry-rigged air defenses from three miles out. You could park in the sky for half an hour and turn their whole army to mush, then send in your infantry to wipe out pockets of survivors. When you have air superiority of this magnitude, you hardly even need invincible ground troops to tear apart any army that could face you.

I'm not usually one to take the subtle route, but here it may be warranted. Send in dark-skinned infiltrators to plantations with advanced weapons, rile up the slaves in revolt, and establish powerful black militias in the years following the war that I can only assume would be over quickly with the labor pool fighting back with lasers. The KKK dies after a handful of disastrous battles, if it forms at all, and the institutional racism that existed for a century following, and the de facto racism that exists today, would be averted quickly with African-Americans suddenly given more power than any white in the world. Maybe that's stupid and would only divide the country further. Maybe genocide of the South is the way to go. You could certainly do it.

If transferring consciousness to a drone works, I would one hundred percent do it, making myself immortal and nearly invincible. I would probably then proceed to wreak havoc on the world, probably in Europe, flying around in my personal gunship killing imperialists and generally causing chaos. Immoral, evil, but way too fun. I know my flaws. I might try and alter history somewhere else in the world, as well. I have a bit of a thing for the German Empire, so I might go and make sure it wins the Great War, then subsequently help it develop socially into something less oppressive to minorities. If necessary, put my consciousness into a Wilhelm bot and rule directly. Help out in the Belgian Congo, British Raj, et cetera.

I'd probably dick around quite a bit messing with history, come to think of it. Much as I hate to admit it, dealing with racism would probably take a back burner for me. The strong temptation would be to just summarily execute anyone I think is being racist, and clad all my Terminators in dark skin and have them retaliate to the fullest extent to any violence. Eventually, society would work itself out. A curious thought, the question of how human society would develop with a fickle, murderous god watching over them, periodically intervening in wars to massacre whole generations, and shooting anyone that disobeyed his moral code. And impersonating respected leaders to further manipulate world politics. It could hardly be good, I think.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-27 09:49pm

Do not introduce laser weapons into this situation. Those work on Terminators and other Skynet units. All you need is a few people to manage to get them, and that could cause damage.

Stick to improved over the period weapons. i.e M-16 Assault Rifles would be devastating, but still do shit to your forces.
Also, equipping Terminators with lower-tech weapons would have a devastating mental effect. How bad would it suck to be taken out by what look like humans, armed with long bows, when you have muskets?
(Also, imagine terminator performance with a long bow).
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-28 03:05pm

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2019-01-27 06:58pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:And fuckers like Lee became national heroes,
Cause he was Anglo-Saxon white. And American. And the scion of two of America's first families. What, you thought this was the land of liberty and justice for all?
Maybe, but I'm not confident of 19th. Century artillery's ability to target something as mobile as a gunship.
That's the thing with grapeshot, or even chainshot. All one really has to do is fill the air with enough flying crap, and even a Skynet gunship will find itself hard-pressed to survive. Especially if you have several mortars loaded in this fashion, firing en masse.
The question then is how quickly the gunships can position themselves right over the Union infantry, where most of that grapeshot and chain shot will fall right back down on their own terrified forces.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-28 03:58pm

As others have also mentioned, Rom, that is indeed the question. Just how maneuverable are Skynet gunships, what is the max range of their weapons, what is their optimal attack profile, and does that allow the gunship to target and fire at max speed, or do they have to slow down to make air to ground attacks, like modern fighter-bombers and attack aircraft?

My point is(beside playing devil's advocate) that there's always a countmeasure available, even to low-tech rednecks, and any sane plan has to take that into account.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-28 04:19pm

It should be possible to get at least a low-end on range and maneuverability from screen shots. I'll have to see if I can hunt up some Youtube videos of Terminator gunships in action.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-29 06:55pm

We've only seen them a few time in the series. That I can recall, in a nightmare/dream sequence in Terminator 1, and briefly in Terminator 2.

I think it would be reasonble to assume the fastest helicopter and most maneuverable we have in real life are slightly inferior for discussion purposes.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-01-29 08:26pm

We also see A-10s go head to head with their more primitive cousins in Terminator Salvation.

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-29 09:48pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-01-29 08:26pm
We also see A-10s go head to head with their more primitive cousins in Terminator Salvation.

I'd forgotten about that....

yeah, I don't think anything that 1860 - 1870's technology would be able to hit Skynet aerial units in combat, except by sheer dumb luck.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-30 03:01am

Agreed. Still, you can never entirely discount sheer dumb luck in combat.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-30 03:01pm

True.

That's why I'd have Aerial HKS hover say, 400 feet in the air, and just fire straight down at their targets.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-01-31 03:54am

This is why I'm trying to have more of a Federation style expansion. During the 1860s, I could potentially wipe out every army on Earth while not suffering any losses at all. But bringing them things like antibiotics and sterile medical conditions as well as fertilizer and other such things that advances their country peacefully is a lot better incentive to having people join the nation of Pax Skynetia than through force. As soon as one nation decides that I'm too dangerous, and takes up arms against me, and I receive a casus belli against them, the world knows that I'm armed to the teeth, but I want to bring about peace.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by K. A. Pital » 2019-01-31 03:59am

Guys, this is such amateur “progressor” talk here the entire thing just pains me.

Genocide, brainwashing and global technofascism?

And how are people supposed to understand slavery is bad and advance their moral concepts, if you come there as Dr. Evil Squared and do all those things?

I would support the Native Americans. Slowly but certainly I would let them get their own territory and build their own state. With their deeply ingrained respect for the collective and not-yet-atrophied concepts of common use opposed to private property, they can perhaps apply the technology in a more moral fashion. To what extent and how - will be decided based on the situation at hand.

I would help the Union, but try to make/keep it a natural-looking victory instead of steamrolling on Day 1.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-31 10:33pm

Amateur 'Progressor'? MAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm aiming to fucking conquer the world in this scenario.

This is just discussing which method is most efficient.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-02-05 03:24pm

K. A. Pital wrote:
2019-01-31 03:59am
Guys, this is such amateur “progressor” talk here the entire thing just pains me.

Genocide, brainwashing and global technofascism?
You always get some people going that route in RAR threads- the appeal of the power fantasy, I guess.

I tried to take a more realistic and subtle tac, partly out of personal philosophical preference, and partly because while my tech. would certainly enable me to steamroll any military in the world or all the militaries in the world in this time period (provided I can quickly secure sufficient resources to fuel my factor and vehicles/Terminators), that would leave me with the problem of occupying a country (or planet) full of resentful, frightened people who would either have to be kept in perpetual ignorance and poverty, or would eventually gain the knowledge needed to rebel. And occupying a continent of unwilling subjects isn't a great long-term plan.
And how are people supposed to understand slavery is bad and advance their moral concepts, if you come there as Dr. Evil Squared and do all those things?
Agreed.
I would support the Native Americans. Slowly but certainly I would let them get their own territory and build their own state.
Probably many states- the Native Americans were by no means a single homogenous culture or nation, after all.
With their deeply ingrained respect for the collective and not-yet-atrophied concepts of common use opposed to private property, they can perhaps apply the technology in a more moral fashion. To what extent and how - will be decided based on the situation at hand.
I feel like you are somewhat stereotyping Native Americans culturally here.

My sense is that they're people, probably as diverse and fallible and prone to the abuse of power as any of us, but by the same token they have as much right to try and either succeed or fail without interference as anyone else.

As to technological knowledge, I would open schools which would provide access to some of my less dangerous scientific and technological knowledge (NOT time travel or Terminator tech, which would be classified state secrets), which would be open at no cost of admission to anyone willing to learn. I'd also invite leading academics from around the world to come visit my nation.
I would help the Union, but try to make/keep it a natural-looking victory instead of steamrolling on Day 1.
I could go either way on this. On the one hand, it avoids the issue of it being a change imposed on the US from outside, and makes it less likely that America will forever resent the fall of slavery as something imposed by a foreign tyrant.

On the other hand, I feel that the South needs to be thoroughly beaten before it can be reformed- to be shown that Resistance is Futile. And knowing that I can do that more quickly, cleanly, fully, and frankly humanely than the US did in real life, it would be hard to justify sitting on the sidelines.

That said, as previously noted, I'd probably limit myself to economic/diplomatic/humanitarian support for the Union (and sheltering escaped slaves) unless the South crossed my borders in force. At which point, as noted, I'd likely march into Texas and annex Galveston, which would both cut into the Southern economy and force them to fight on another front while giving me a sea port. Probably involving a thorough demonstration of Terminator and gunship superiority at some point, while making sure that there are plenty of survivors to spread the word and let the rest of the South know just how screwed they are.

Unless the South somehow beat the North this time (as unlikely as that might be) in which case, fuck it, I'm marching to the Atlantic and shoving a giant robotic boot up Jefferson Davis' ass. :D
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-02-05 03:41pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-02-05 03:24pm
I would support the Native Americans. Slowly but certainly I would let them get their own territory and build their own state.
Probably many states- the Native Americans were by no means a single homogenous culture or nation, after all.
Minor nitpick: the Native Americans probably won't have the same concept of a 'state' as you. While there were certainly broad concepts of territory, they were never (as I understand it) all that into the idea of clearly delineated national boundaries and all that. So you may have to adjust your paradigms here or come at it the other way around-- tell the Union/Confederates that beyond -this- line is Native territory, don't fuck with them, or whatever.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-02-05 03:45pm

That's a fair point, yeah.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Solauren » 2019-02-05 09:32pm

Another point to consider when dealing with the Native Americans diplomatically is -

How often have they been pissed on by non-Native Americans at this point?

While protecting them from further encroachment on their territory is good and noble (and something I'm all for and support, regardless of my egomanical goal of world+ domination (What, we're basically Skynet in this scenario), you'll have to be extra cautious with them.

In order to firmly earn their trust and respect (especially since most of your forces are obviously not human or humane), you'll have to be the epitime of manners, and follow both the spirit, and letter, of any agreement.

In other words, do something rarely seen in Western Civilization. Be properly diplomatic.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Jub » 2019-02-05 09:39pm

I might want to change my vote to go immortal and fuck off into space with my army of worker drones. I can build general-purpose AIs which can learn for companionship and, given that I started off as human, save humanity (via my continued existence in space) while also not fucking with history. I may just build up towards some form of robot colony ship while generally staying out of things.

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by K. A. Pital » 2019-02-06 04:48am

Regarding how much the native people were screwed by colonizers - pretty much...

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/01/worl ... index.html
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-02-06 07:43am

Solauren wrote:
2019-02-05 09:32pm
Another point to consider when dealing with the Native Americans diplomatically is -

How often have they been pissed on by non-Native Americans at this point?

While protecting them from further encroachment on their territory is good and noble (and something I'm all for and support, regardless of my egomanical goal of world+ domination (What, we're basically Skynet in this scenario), you'll have to be extra cautious with them.

In order to firmly earn their trust and respect (especially since most of your forces are obviously not human or humane), you'll have to be the epitime of manners, and follow both the spirit, and letter, of any agreement.

In other words, do something rarely seen in Western Civilization. Be properly diplomatic.
Also, at least one native tribe, the Cherokee*, practiced African slavery at this time, while several other native tribes(the Commanche come to mind)were slave takers as well.

*This, on top of the Trail Of Tears, was why the Cherokee Nation—save for the United Keetowah Band—fought for the Confederacy during the Civil War. And, being typical of the US Gov, the Union-loyal UKB were stripped of recognition on the Dawes rolls, while the Confederate-loyal Cherokee Nation became the officially recognized tribe.
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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-02-06 07:48am

Elheru Aran wrote:
2019-02-05 03:41pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-02-05 03:24pm
I would support the Native Americans. Slowly but certainly I would let them get their own territory and build their own state.
Probably many states- the Native Americans were by no means a single homogenous culture or nation, after all.
Minor nitpick: the Native Americans probably won't have the same concept of a 'state' as you. While there were certainly broad concepts of territory, they were never (as I understand it) all that into the idea of clearly delineated national boundaries and all that. So you may have to adjust your paradigms here or come at it the other way around-- tell the Union/Confederates that beyond -this- line is Native territory, don't fuck with them, or whatever.
The exception to this were the Five Civilized Tribes, including the Cherokee Nation, which had clearly deliniated territorial boundaries prior to, then after, the Trail Of Tears. The Cherokee even established cities(New Echota, in present=day West Georgia and Tahlequah in present-day Oklahoma serving as their capitals) and maintained plantations rivalling those of the Southern aristocracy(Stand Waitie's was one of them)
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

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Re: You get to intervene in the US Civil War (RAR).

Post by Invictus ChiKen » 2019-02-07 05:37pm

Been a long time since I posted, years actually, but saw this and had to respond. Most posters are talking about military intervention I wanna try a different route.

I'd have my factory build two Aerial HKs designed to look like an airship, there were already reports of mysterious airships at the time like our own UFO sightings so I plan to play off those for this plan. Obviously infiltrators will crew both ships with the "Captain" acting as my representative designed and programmed to be the ultimate negotiators. The aircraft will head to DC and Richmond respectively with an alternative solution to slavery and the coming war.

Presenting "The Amazing Iron Men!" (i.e. unskinned infiltrators with a redesign to look like period science fiction creations) a solution to the slavery issue. Why deal with the care, feeding and cost of slaves when an Iron Man can work non-stop 24/7? No need to pay overseers, no need to worry about revolts, does the work of twenty slaves. Market forces will ensure slavery is ended and hopefully avert the whole war and reunite the union. The rest of this assumes that every part of the plan mostly works out.

With the war averted and the USA whole again the question becomes what to do with the Slaves? For part of a long term plan I'd back the colonize Africa plan (with several T-800s on the return trip as part of the long term plan). With my wealth from sales of Iron Men, and from gold mines and oil wells my company "discovers" along with the needed tech being designed I'd more of less have a license to print money.

From my factories scores of infiltrators would be sent out to well infiltrate communities, marrying and having "Children" (T-1000s) the main goal of these units would be to start winning hearts and minds a little bit at a time. Slowly educating people and as communities have more infiltrators than regular citizens the effects of group psychology would help to shift views at a relatively rapid pace. This would also be going on in Africa with the new colony along with the introduction of more and more advanced medicine and technology. My company would establish universities free of charge to educate the population. In Democracies my infiltrators would run for office and help to get better and better laws passed, introduce green technology BEFORE global warming becomes a thing. The end goal of course being to change this world to be more and more like best parts of ours.
"The real ideological schism in America is not Republican vs Democrat; it is North vs South, Urban vs Rural, and it has been since the 19th century."
-Mike Wong

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