Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

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Raesene
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Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-09-27 07:02am

Anyone else playing it ?

Got it yesterday, started playing today. Reminds me very much of Baldurs Gate 2, in a good way.

Like the graphics and character interaction, but have to get used again to the combat system and character mangement.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-09-27 07:26am

Have it myself finishing off Shadowrun Dragonfall before starting it up but it looks interesting and it's Pathfinder so lots of fun. Tricky bit is determining what class/combo to play since I have way to much time in Pathfinder and it seems a lot of my favorite combos are not exactly in the game.

It does however have a TON of Pathfinder classes and feats but I'll say right now the creature assumes you kind of know pathfinder and the archetypes don't exactly spell out what they offer over base you have to go looking.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-09-27 09:40pm

I backed the Kickstarter, so I've been at it. I'm having serious trouble finding the bandit camp; the Thorn Ford map is empty for some reason.

Also, they dropped a very big patch today, which I'm patching now.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-09-28 05:29pm

Got through he first part (with lots of respawning) and liked it. It's a game that will eat up a lot of my spare time. Never having played the Adventure Path the game is based on I can't comment on how faithful they followed it, but if they did I'm in for some good hours of gaming.

Having reached the Kingdom-building stage, I think I'm going to enjoy that. The interface is useable; it's not Civilization, but a certain SimCity-feeling emerged.
For me, it brings back memories of the first RPG campaign I participated - Birthright for AD&D 2nd edition.

The few problems I had (return to main menu after a few autosaves, but those were loadable so no data lost) were fixed with the first path a day after release, so no complaints from me.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Jub » 2018-09-28 05:44pm

Swarm enemies that deal lasting strength damage are complete dicks, especially when you can't run from combat if you get caught in a small arena. Tip: equip those everburning torches, prepare your AoE spells, and hand out splash weapons like they're going out of style.

Beyond that minor issue, it's pretty fun so far. Just be warned the same encounters will kick your ass and they devs don't mind letting your second level party run into a troll they can barely hit that two shots each of your characters.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Highlord Laan » 2018-09-30 01:58am

I'm told the difficulty scaling is mind numbingly dumb and the game engages in antics that would get any actual tabletop GM thrown out of their own friends house.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-09-30 03:19am

Highlord Laan wrote:
2018-09-30 01:58am
I'm told the difficulty scaling is mind numbingly dumb and the game engages in antics that would get any actual tabletop GM thrown out of their own friends house.
I've had to reload several times after a combat went not my way, but that's normal for me in PC RPG games.
A few encounters were too difficult, so I left them for later. While I dislike that at the gaming table, I have no problem with it here as I can just go back to the last save.

I haven't encountered a case of bad gamemastering yet.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-09-30 03:20am

Highlord Laan wrote:
2018-09-30 01:58am
I'm told the difficulty scaling is mind numbingly dumb and the game engages in antics that would get any actual tabletop GM thrown out of their own friends house.
Do you have examples of these antics ?

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-09-30 07:28am

bilateralrope wrote:
2018-09-30 03:20am
Highlord Laan wrote:
2018-09-30 01:58am
I'm told the difficulty scaling is mind numbingly dumb and the game engages in antics that would get any actual tabletop GM thrown out of their own friends house.
Do you have examples of these antics ?
Nearly every fight see's you starting nose to nose with the enemy so goodbye ranged characters you'll be within 30 feet every time even when your "ambushing" the enemy.

Also there's wonky thing going on with enemy stats because of double dipping.
Here's the link on reddit

But to quote discosoc
discosoc wrote: *Snip
TLDR: Enemy Difficulty changes the modifier scores (but not the base values) of the main attributes, skills, AC, Attacks, and Saves, by -2, +0, +2, +4, for weak, normal, strengthened, insane options accordingly. I'll go into why below, but you might notice attacks and AC get double-dipped due to the way the math is handled. I'm not sure if that's intentional or not, but it results in a rather steep increase in certain key stat values.

*Snip
It looks more complicated that it is, but gist is the math works out so that the weak, normal, strengthened, and insane options grant a -2, 0, +2, +4 bonus to the modifiers of various stats. The important distinction to make here is that the bonus is added to the modifier and not the base score. So if a Troll has a Strength of 26 (+8), bumping the difficulty up one notch would turn it into a 26 (+10). Notice that the actual Strength score doesn't increase; just the modifier.

Anyway, it does that for the six core stats (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha), and then does it again for perception, AC, attack, and saves. The problem here is that the "derivative" stats are double-dipping when the difficulty changes. So a Normal Troll has +8 Strength mod, but a Strengthened Troll will have a +10 and a +2 attack modifier. So end result is a Strengthened Troll effectively has 8 higher strength than normal. If you bump it up to an Insane Troll, it gets a +12 Strength mod and a +4 attack modifier, effectively granting the troll 16 Strength higher than normal.

The exact same thing is happening with AC, because it gets both a Dexterity mod boost and a flat AC boost. Same with saving throws and perception.

I think the question I have now is if they intended the difficulty bonus to double-dip like this or not. The above code uses two distinct variables (value, value2) for the basic and derivative bonuses, yet the values end up the same. I suspect they might have wanted them separate so that the combat log "clearly" shows the attack and AC "difficulty" bonuses listed on their own. I guess I just feel like the effectively +4 bonus to attack and defense per difficulty level ends up rather frustrating.

Lastly, here's some stat information for the Troll in the Old Oak map using different settings.

Weak Initiative Modifier: +2 (14) BAB: 6 Strength: +6 (22) AC: 16 (10 + Dex +2, Natural +7, Size -1, Difficulty -2)

Normal Initiative Modifier: +4 (18) BAB: 6 Strength: +8 (26) AC: 20 (10 + Dex +4, Natural +7, Size -1)

Strengthened Initiative Modifier: +6 (22) BAB: 6 Strength: +10 (30) AC: 24 (10 + Dex +6, Natural +7, Size -1, Difficulty +2)

Insane Initiative Modifier: +8 (26) BAB: 6 Strength: +12 (34) AC: 28 (10 + Dex +8, Natural +7, Size -1, Difficulty +4)

It's worth pointing out that most everything I've looked at suggests that the "Weak" difficulty option is the one closest to the actual rules -- more or less. For example, here's a basic Pathfinder Troll. 16 AC. Dex mod +2, Strength mod +5, regen of 5, a Rend Attack... It's basically a Man-Eater Troll from the video game. "Normal," however, is a bit tougher.
TLDR from his notes is the last bit. "Weak difficulty"= what core monsters are in Pathfinder so here's a Pathfinder troll

Code: Select all

Troll CR 5
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 14; (+2 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 63 (6d8+36); regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee bite +8 (1d8+5), 2 claws +8 (1d6+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d6+7)

STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6
Base Atk +4; CMB +10; CMD 22
Feats Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Perception)
So normal troll +2 to initiative +8 to hit, 16 ac defense, he rolls a d20+8 to hit, you need to roll a 16 or higher to hit him.
Comparable to
Weak Initiative Modifier: +2 (14) BAB: 6 Strength: +6 (22) AC: 16

But a "normal" difficulty troll is again
Normal Initiative Modifier: +4 (18) BAB: 6 Strength: +8 (26) AC: 20
So even on "normal" difficultly every single monster in the game will have anywhere from +2 to +4 more AC than normal more damage than normal and a better chance of hitting you, the troll for example goes from a +8 to hit to a +12 and his defense jumps by 4 to AC 20 making him quantitatively better at hitting and harder to it.

Because the game double dips the stats providing a flat +2 to all ability scores for every difficultly rank you go up and a generic +2 bonus on top of that, so Mr troll gets a +2 bonus to AC from more dex at normal and a generic +2 bonus to his armor class just because.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-09-30 10:54pm

So apparently you can't pull advisors off of assignments to deal with urgent problems. I had a cult spring up that I had to address within three days of the warning, the only advisors it allowed me to send to deal with it were Jhod and Tristian, and they were both tied up doing other things. So now I have a permanent decadent cult presence in the barony that I cannot in any way deal with.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Highlord Laan » 2018-10-01 03:19pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-09-30 10:54pm
So now I have a permanent decadent cult presence in the barony that I cannot in any way deal with.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Solauren » 2018-10-01 08:00pm

I only loaded it long enough for the GOG updater to be triggered next time I reboot.

I'm waiting a bit before playing it, if only because initial releases never go flawlessly.
\

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-02 05:26pm

Evidently the Windows version of today's hotfix makes the spell lists invisible. :lol:

Anyway, does the game have a gigantic memory leak for anyone else? The longer I play, the longer load times get, and if I exit the game after playing for more than a couple of hours, my (powerful desktop) computer takes at least ten minutes to recover enough to run a browser or even open Task Manager to see what's wrong without lagging.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-10-02 06:12pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-10-02 05:26pm
Evidently the Windows version of today's hotfix makes the spell lists invisible. :lol:
Actually today's patch was last week's patch because they somehow uploaded the Windows 1.0 patch to the servers today, not for the Mac or Linux version but the windows patch is from last week.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-02 06:24pm

Ah. I just read the patch notes where they frantically apologized for that happening.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-04 11:48pm

So... my barony up and collapsed with no explanation a couple of weeks after I defeated the trolls. There were no failed events, and no vital kingdom stats anywhere near zero; the final report tells me nothing and I can't figure it out. I did take longer defeating the trolls than I probably should have, getting bogged down in sidequests, but I did put the kibosh on them and have no idea what's destroying the state. It's weird.

This happened while skipping a couple of weeks in the kingdom management interface to try to get to the end of some events. I've reloaded a save and am going adventuring to try and finish some quests to see if that helps. Also, most of my party has a boatload of negative levels and I can't find more than one thing of diamond dust; restoration requires two per casting. Anyone know where I can find any?
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-10-05 01:57am

I think I bought my diamond dust from Jhod, he should be in your capital between the residence and the tavern.

I noticed that skipping weeks (even when on 14 day missions with an advisor) leads to a lot of missions being awarded, so I got a lot of trouble. That caused morale to collapse (my population became first worried, then troubled), but not assigning advisors to do anything for a while except upcoming problems fixed that for while.

By the way, anyone found out if and how I can abort a mission and reassign the advisor except ont he starting day?
Some problems are really serious, and I don`t want advisors doing nothing while waiting for a crisis to come.

Also, some missions don`t disappear although obsolete - I restored the temple, so I don`t want to tear it down afterwards. The resoration success even said the other one is now absolete, yet I still get it offered.

And missions expire although there is no time limit stated - I ignored Linzis quest for some time because I didn`t have her in the party when I found what she was looking for, so after a few weeks she told me `nevermind what we talked about, it wasn`t that important´ just as I wanted to go and get it.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-10 07:19pm

Spoilers for the ending (I think) of the Season of Bloom arc. Spoiler
So I found the Everblooming Flower by falling through the right fissure in the Womb of Lamashtu. But when I destroy it, it simply sprouts back and offers the exact same dialogue. What gives?
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Raesene » 2018-10-11 01:44am

Rogue 9:
Spoiler
you have to destroy the plant by poisoning it using some water from a lake; not there yet, but found that in one of the forums.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer


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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-18 12:23am

Tomb of Vordekai spoilers: Spoiler
Either Tristian is bugged in this section somehow such that he doesn't die/gain Death's Door when dropped below his negative CON score, or something sinister is going on. He was awfully insistent that he come along...
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2018-10-19 03:39pm

The major issue with this game is the timing mechanics.

It is one thing to put information in the description that specifically makes it clear a time limit is in place to do certain quests. It is another to have them on a time limit without actually indicating WHEN that time limit expires and hammering the player with multiple at once.

I.E
Being given a choice to save X or Y because you do not have time to save both - Okay.
Being given two objectives that really do not imply an imminent time restraint AND having the kingdom management / travel aspect in play - Kinda shitty mechanic.

As a result.
Trying to play the kingdom management game can be extremely save scummy / stupid because you dont want to be stuck waiting 14 days for a project to finish because some random "events" can pop up AND expire within that time period. Not to mention that if you get really unlucky, you can be left with events popping up that need to be completed but you have no time to really do it.

In one instance:
A guy asks the player to find his brother.
Turns out this brother can only be found between two "main mission" critical areas that are right next to each other and logically would be done in sequence.
However, doing it in sequence caused the mission to fail because the time taken was too long.
So the player is meant to do part A, take a multiple day trip back home to hand in the mission and then spend more days going back.

I guess that is longer than the brief time it takes to go through Vordekai's tomb and then hand in the mission with a single trip back home.


I also find a lot of the information from the journal about WHERE you are meant to go or what you are meant to do is severely lacking. Given that you have so many buns in the oven for this game, it gets hard to keep track of everything and a poor effort has been made to alleviate this issue.

The game has a bit of an issue when it comes to the Kingdom / Advisory system anyway. In theory it is a nice concept but the implementation feels very under utilised with the attempt at adding a building system and the terrain of where you put villages does actually affect tile placement without any explanation of this.

The game can literally screw you over hard if you have not went out to capture as many advisers as you possibly can. I.E All the companions, even if you fucking loath some of them ( Nok Nok )
These companions are your advisers and have a distinct advantage over the NPC advisers because their leveling up improves their stats.

That said, some of the positions overlap with advisers so much that trying to juggle them is a pain, especially when you have the issue that advisers alignment affects the choices you have to make. I get stuck putting the evil person in a position and if I do not agree with their decisions they will leave the job.

However, I have no other person to put in that position which can cost you the game - That is not a well thought out system even though they had the good sense to put in a custom NPC creator system.

As it stands, I have made a full team of custom companions that I can build from the ground up with the alignment and stuff I need. Most of the story companions are not properly built and the game has no respec function to fix them. On easier difficulties that would fly, but the harder difficulties stress min-maxing your party if you want to survive.


Storywise - It is extremely predictable and it is not helped by the fact the game developers have a bi polar need to switch between "plot contrivance" and " Allow players to react intelligently to situations ".

I.E The loading screen that keeps saying "Soul Eaters get more powerful if they know your name"
- Gee, I wonder if at some point mentioning my character's name is going to be important
- Oh look, I have had multiple dialogue options that make it abundantly clear my character is shouting his full name as loud as he can for no fucking reason in a world where NAMING magic works to unknown entities that would be unwise to know your name.
- Oh look, I wisely skipped the opting to shout my name every fucking time - Game developers decide to say fuck you and have an NPC straight out reveal your name anyway making the whole fucking exercise pointless.
- On the one hand, your meant to be a major hero and ruler of a kingdom so finding out your name should be trivial.
- On the other hand, what is the point in putting a false flag concept of the player choosing to choose an intelligent route that has even been implemented in the dialogue options only for the developers to turn round and make that choice irrelevant.
Spoiler
I am talking about the Vordakai crow

The dialogue options make it really obvious the crow keeps asking your name and the responses are very preachy with the character mentioning their name so it is kinda telegraphed what is going on.

However, even if you go through the process of keeping your mouth shut about your identity. The Defaced Sisters straight out shout your name to the crow ANYWAY.
Maybe another option exists - however, when you get to Vordakai's tomb. The companions will drop your "name" and "theirs"
This leads to a fight against - You guessed, Soul Eaters which can only be attacked by the person that was named.

Not so bad if you have a character that can handle that one-on-one fight.

SIDE NOTE :

Tristian and Nok Nok should not be taken to that tomb.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-10-19 03:47pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:
2018-10-19 03:39pm
As a result.
Trying to play the kingdom management game can be extremely save scummy / stupid because you dont want to be stuck waiting 14 days for a project to finish because some random "events" can pop up AND expire within that time period. Not to mention that if you get really unlucky, you can be left with events popping up that need to be completed but you have no time to really do it.

In one instance:
A guy asks the player to find his brother.
Turns out this brother can only be found between two "main mission" critical areas that are right next to each other and logically would be done in sequence.
However, doing it in sequence caused the mission to fail because the time taken was too long.
So the player is meant to do part A, take a multiple day trip back home to hand in the mission and then spend more days going back.

I guess that is longer than the brief time it takes to go through Vordekai's tomb and then hand in the mission with a single trip back home.
I've heard that this is an adaptation of a Pathfinder adventure module. So how faithful is this problem to the module ?

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-10-19 04:09pm

bilateralrope wrote:
2018-10-19 03:47pm
PREDATOR490 wrote:
2018-10-19 03:39pm
As a result.
Trying to play the kingdom management game can be extremely save scummy / stupid because you dont want to be stuck waiting 14 days for a project to finish because some random "events" can pop up AND expire within that time period. Not to mention that if you get really unlucky, you can be left with events popping up that need to be completed but you have no time to really do it.
.
I've heard that this is an adaptation of a Pathfinder adventure module. So how faithful is this problem to the module ?
Not very as the module has a GM who can adjust things so they make sense and a real Pathfinder party has access to things like HORSES which double movement and travel speed, magical mounts which can triple it or once they are high even level teleportation makes travel time at most eight hours to anywhere.

You never get that option in this game as far as I know it's currently impossible (Or maybe bugged) to increase your travel speed in any way up to including spells designed to do that.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-10-19 04:45pm

Mr Bean wrote:
2018-10-19 04:09pm
Not very as the module has a GM who can adjust things so they make sense
Which doesn't make it not a problem. Just a problem that everyone fixes on the fly. So I'm curious if this a problem that comes from the module itself or one the developers created.

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PREDATOR490
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Owlcat Games

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2018-10-19 07:08pm

While I kinda get the idea this game is supposed to be a true to Pathfinder it is kinda admirable.

The developers really needed to get a bit more sensible in how they approached it as somethings just do not adapt well. Travel and time is a big one in this game.
Not to mention the fucking transitions - Games have loading screens but this game gets insanely tedious with this shit when you have excessive amounts of them in a very short time because the developers decided to put things you access regularly behind multiple transitions.

At this point, random encounters on the road are irritating because your going through 2 load screens to have a fight with never ending mobs just so you can get back on track to getting some where. The capital is one of the biggest issues with the player having to go through at least 2 load screens just to get out of the damn capital and on the road on a very regular basis.

This has the spirit of being a decent RPG and if they threw in a decent custom content system then I can see it becoming a updated Neverwinter Nights. As is, the game has some very poorly implemented mechanics and the developers attitude of "Copying shit directly from the books for descriptions on things" and leaving it at that is really silly.
If you read the descriptions on items and stuff, it becomes obvious they are ripping it and in some cases they have clearly changed it for the game but not changed the description to match. Alternatively, they HAVE changed it and not properly realised that doing stuff like that does create issues.

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