Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-05-12 05:30pm

Loki and Heimdall's great opening deaths?
I hope you were being sarcastic. "Lame" doesn't begin to cover it- Loki thinking he could take Thanos out with a dagger was fucking stupid, and somehow they found a way to give Heimdall even less screentime than he got in Ragnarok.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-12 06:02pm

Loki thought of attacking Thanos right after Thanos got the gem.

Just as pretty much every other character in the film. :P
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-05-12 06:06pm

K. A. Pital wrote:
2018-05-12 05:46am

Thanos is the ultimate metaphor of the ruling class - seeking power for the sake of horrible solutions which are driven by own fears and insecurity.

Pop culture as a crooked, but deep down faithful reflection.
You're going to have to explain that one to me, as Thanos is portrayed as a religious fanatic after his world was destroyed when he was in exile, having his own cult, not as some sort of Bourgeoise upper crust corrupt leader.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-05-12 06:22pm

K. A. Pital wrote:
2018-05-12 06:02pm
Loki thought of attacking Thanos right after Thanos got the gem.

Just as pretty much every other character in the film. :P
Case in point being that whole confrontation with Scarlet Witch and Vision, I was like "WHERE THE FUCK IS THOR???"... and he shows up a day late and a dollar short! :lol:
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2018-05-12 07:18pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-05-12 06:06pm
K. A. Pital wrote:
2018-05-12 05:46am

Thanos is the ultimate metaphor of the ruling class - seeking power for the sake of horrible solutions which are driven by own fears and insecurity.

Pop culture as a crooked, but deep down faithful reflection.
You're going to have to explain that one to me, as Thanos is portrayed as a religious fanatic after his world was destroyed when he was in exile, having his own cult, not as some sort of Bourgeoise upper crust corrupt leader.
He's seeking ultimate power and ultimate control to impose a policy that he believes is desirable on a population that does not desire it. The atrocity he's inflicting is in the name of thwarting Malthusian population crisis and he's using god power to kill half the universe instead of letting Irish or Indians starve due to economic policies that benefit the ruling class but both are done in the name of the greater good and regard the suffering and death that result from them as tragic but necessary. The slaughter is done for the sake of averting a future disaster that Thanos fears and slaughter is the preferred solution of the man wielding the power, so alternative ideas are not pursued despite having the power to reworking the fabric of time, space, and reality itself on a universal scale. It is a top down decision of an authoritarian, pursued because it is his desire, and enacted because it is his desire, without the merits of the decision being considered, or alternatives seriously considered.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Tribble » 2018-05-12 09:19pm

So basically the movie is about how some big purple dude decided to go after some shiny rocks and kill half the universe because he hadn't heard of contraceptives?
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2018-05-13 12:26am

Tribble wrote:
2018-05-12 09:19pm
So basically the movie is about how some big purple dude decided to go after some shiny rocks and kill half the universe because he hadn't heard of contraceptives?
Malthus is a bad trip, man. Like Ayn Rand, best avoided.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-05-13 12:51am

Also, couldn't he just create more resources?
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-13 01:40am

Malthusian views are reactionary, but the tragic thing is that they do make sense under a system which pursues self-destructive growth at all costs. I.e. it is a reactionary solution to the problems posed by overexploitation of finite resources, which itself is a result of following a perverse value system.

Thanos became the hostage of the status-quo. His views barely make sense to anyone but himself, and are based on the inability to think outside the box.

And no he could not, as far as I understand, create more resources, and his powers were not of the creative kind. Which is also true of our rulers and masters. They can extract, and consume, and rework, but they cannot make more. Stopgap measures are also not solutions.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-05-13 11:10am

If he can rework stuff, why couldn't he rework dead planets to become habitable? To transform otherwise useless space works into usable materials? Hell, move all the habitable star systems in the galaxy closer together to make it easier to colonise?
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-13 11:28am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-05-13 11:10am
If he can rework stuff, why couldn't he rework dead planets to become habitable?
Because he didn't want to? Why don't the capitalists of our age like Bezos or Thiel turn gigantic e-waste dumps into paradise oases? It's sure a better application of funds than blood transfusions or a $42 million underground clock.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-05-13 11:10am
To transform otherwise useless space works into usable materials?
Why? There's enough usable materials. But to him, there is just too many users.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-05-13 11:10am
Hell, move all the habitable star systems in the galaxy closer together to make it easier to colonise?
Once again, why? It seems like you did not see the film. He is dedicated to his own idea, which makes no sense, but he has a lot of dedication. Alternatives are not even being considered.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-05-13 11:57am

Yeah I did see the film, I was expanding on what Gandalf said when he asked why Thanos couldn't just make more resources, then you said Thanos' powers were not creative and that he could only rework stuff.

I get that Thanos is a villain who won't consider any other viewpoints and is set on his course, and that's fine. I was dealing with your assertion that he couldn't do anything to provide more resources rather than reduce the number of users.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-13 12:47pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-05-13 11:57am
I was dealing with your assertion that he couldn't do anything to provide more resources rather than reduce the number of users.
It was much more an observation on Thanos the way depicted in the film, rather than a genuine statement on his abilities and inabilities (because seriously, who knows what he can or cannot do?) In the film, they show him using his powers exclusively for altering and destroying, but not for creating.

If we start considering theoretic possibilities, Thanos could have infinite powers and infinite abilities.

Truth be told, it follows from the film plot that his abilities are destructive in nature. He can destroy with an eyeblink, but his forces actually come from aboard stolen or derelict spaceships, and comprise enslaved populations of other worlds. His elite agents are also abductees. In other words, Thanos could not even create himself an army, using Outriders and Chitauri instead.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Coop D'etat » 2018-05-13 12:48pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-05-13 12:51am
Also, couldn't he just create more resources?
1) Doubling every resource in the universe is probably a few orders of magnitude harder than killing half of intelligent life. The Gauntlet itself (although not the stones) was burnt out by the genocide its plausible a doubling of resources isn't possible. The Gauntlet makes you god-like, but I don't think its depicted in the MCU as making you completely omnipotent.

2) The lottery was Thanos's original solution to his people's particular problems. He thinks he was proven right by subsequent events resulting in their extinction. A guy like that is going to be obsessed with pursuing his orginal solution down to the bitter end rather than pursuing a rational analysis of alternatives. I think this is more about Thanos's need to be right and the hard man who could make that choice for his own self image rather than a dispassionate analysis landing on an unpleasant but necessary solution.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-13 12:59pm

Not only are the alternatives not considered, Thanos hasn't used his powers for purely creative purposes even once.

What makes you guys think he's able to? I mean, the greater MCU, Gauntlet, god, etc...

In the films it's just this and his frustrative quest towards internally rationalized destruction.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-05-13 01:29pm

K. A. Pital wrote:
2018-05-13 12:47pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-05-13 11:57am
I was dealing with your assertion that he couldn't do anything to provide more resources rather than reduce the number of users.
It was much more an observation on Thanos the way depicted in the film, rather than a genuine statement on his abilities and inabilities (because seriously, who knows what he can or cannot do?) In the film, they show him using his powers exclusively for altering and destroying, but not for creating.

If we start considering theoretic possibilities, Thanos could have infinite powers and infinite abilities.

Truth be told, it follows from the film plot that his abilities are destructive in nature. He can destroy with an eyeblink, but his forces actually come from aboard stolen or derelict spaceships, and comprise enslaved populations of other worlds. His elite agents are also abductees. In other words, Thanos could not even create himself an army, using Outriders and Chitauri instead.
Fair points. Conceded.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2018-05-14 02:03am

It's revealing that Thanos doesn't even try to use the time gem the way Strange does, to see the possible futures and try to navigate to the good one. Thanos doesn't even consider the possibility of checking to see if his Final Solution will work or if the problem he fears is real. He just murders half the universe because that was what he was always going to do.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-05-14 08:05am

Imperial Overlord wrote:
2018-05-14 02:03am
It's revealing that Thanos doesn't even try to use the time gem the way Strange does, to see the possible futures and try to navigate to the good one. Thanos doesn't even consider the possibility of checking to see if his Final Solution will work or if the problem he fears is real. He just murders half the universe because that was what he was always going to do.
For all we know Thanos may have done so, just off-screen; if he saw the same futures Strange did he'd see the odds are massively in his favour (something like 14 million to 1) Coupled with the reality stone he'd be able to interact with different futures on a whole new level compared to Strange.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2018-05-14 08:25am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-05-14 08:05am
Imperial Overlord wrote:
2018-05-14 02:03am
It's revealing that Thanos doesn't even try to use the time gem the way Strange does, to see the possible futures and try to navigate to the good one. Thanos doesn't even consider the possibility of checking to see if his Final Solution will work or if the problem he fears is real. He just murders half the universe because that was what he was always going to do.
For all we know Thanos may have done so, just off-screen; if he saw the same futures Strange did he'd see the odds are massively in his favour (something like 14 million to 1) Coupled with the reality stone he'd be able to interact with different futures on a whole new level compared to Strange.
Strange wasn't checking to see if Thanos was justified in the end, he was checking to see if the Avengers could win. It would be imbecilic to have something as important as Thanos questioning his beliefs by checking to see if omnicide was necessary and have it happen off screen. We see Thanos convinced from the beginning that he needs to commit omnicide and we see it end with him convinced he's done the right thing. We never see him waver, which is part of the reason his sacrifice of Gamora is so poignant. He does love her, even though she hates him. He mourns her loss. He still does it anyway. There's no indecision on his part, just sorrow.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Q99 » 2018-05-14 11:03am

Make all the people half as big....


Also, 200mil opening in China.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-05-14 05:23pm

K. A. Pital wrote:
2018-05-12 09:15am
But I agree with you that you have exactly few minutes of genuine drama - once they go past the initial deaths, it quickly escalates and you realize they've cheapened their own story for the sake of making it epic now, but lame in the future.

Which is a shame, considering the stellar performance Josh Brolin gave to one of the silliest villains in comics, almost making him into MCU's fucking Vader.

That's why I'm not very interested in what they'll make next, as it will be cheapening and wiping out every bit of dramatism from the present fight.

And that's never a good thing. Dead heroes did not rise up after Berlin was taken.

But let us ponder on the goods and bads of this film, and not venture too deeply into criticism of the comic book superhero genre as such, which is authoritarian, irresponsible and with it's never-dying and never-facing consequences cast, unable to reform and change, perpetrating authoritarian fantasies over decades.

I thought the Vision bits were weak. It was unnecessary, and nobody in the room cared for Vision. Totally unsympathetic character, and the chemistry between him and Scarlet was just not there.
I think that the strongest part of the film was performance. The actors were good and sold their lines well enough. I wager it's not too hard in this one because the script was seemingly all quips and exposition, like bad fanfiction. Everyone has a cameo and gets a line.

The weakest part was the structure. It was a film of two acts, where the end of act two was the end of the film. It's just lazy filmmaking designed to shock people and make idiot fanboys go "OMG how dark!" as they spend money on figures with this film's variant costumes.

On the resources thing, I assumed something of the like was possible (Though not with Thanos's mindset) because on a few occasions he seemed to transmute things. Presumably the garbage island in the Pacific could be turned into clean water or similar. I'm thinking end of Act III will be Stark getting the gauntlet and using the powers to restore everyone, proving that absolute power is only wrong in the hands of the wrong people.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-15 07:23pm

I'd argue that Stark's actions throughout the franchise have shown that he is very much "the wrong people". Stark means well, mostly, but he's an impulsive reactionary, who oscilates between extreme positions based on which one has blown up in his (or other peoples') face lately.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2018-05-15 10:07pm

The Infinity Gauntlet Thanos had one seems to be pretty trashed at this point. The question is, was the one at the forge a functional version or a copy of some sort? We know that Asgard had a fake/duplicate. Is that the case with this one, too? If not, is it Thanos-sized? In such a case, Hulk will get to wear a shiny gauntlet when it comes time (possibly). That would certainly make the big green guy happy.
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-15 10:09pm

Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2018-05-15 10:07pm
The Infinity Gauntlet Thanos had one seems to be pretty trashed at this point. The question is, was the one at the forge a functional version or a copy of some sort? We know that Asgard had a fake/duplicate. Is that the case with this one, too? If not, is it Thanos-sized? In such a case, Hulk will get to wear a shiny gauntlet when it comes time (possibly). That would certainly make the big green guy happy.
Or end very, very badly.

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Re: Avengers: Infinity War (massive spoilers!)

Post by Shannon » 2018-05-16 05:32am

So who would be a suitable wielder? This was one of the quandaries of the original IG saga. All of the main characters are flawed in some way. It might be better to focus on those who have the most desirable qualities and the fewest flaws.

Dr Strange has the requisite cool head and sense of responsibility. T'Challa and Thor have both borne the responsibility of leading and caring for a people.

But if using the IG is going to generate destructive feedback, the wielder would need to be able to survive it. So . . . Thor?
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