Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2018-01-08 02:30pm

In the PT and with Luke, yes, we see that either Jedi actively seek kids to mentor to unlock their abilities, in Luke's case his don't manifest at all until he's finally told so by Obi-Wan and trained. With Anakin, it manifests not as overt TK but as super-reflexes, super-piloting (in a way more ridiculous than Rey since he's a freaking tiny child and enslaved...), super-engineering and such...

But who is to say that it never manifests differently or spontaneously without prompting or training by a space monk? It might, in some cases like Marvel mutants or Harry Potter wizards or 40k psykers. That might be why, precisely, the Jedi had such a thorough recruitment system.

AND as Snoke said, there has been an "Awakening." The Force changed. WHO KNEW. After millennia of Jedi (and hidden handfuls of Sith), now there are no real Jedi or Sith. Luke himself abdicated and unmoored himself from the Force. So why couldn't the Force's volition or constitution or ebb and flow change? If it's like water, then certainly the things navigating it - the Jedi and the Sith, like ships and creatures moving in water and rippling it - could affect it. Their absence likewise.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Imperial528 » 2018-01-08 02:37pm

I don't mind the concept so much as the way it was executed.

I found the execution very lacking and thus I was not well convinced by the concept.

Frankly when I watched both TFA and TLJ I felt very outpaced by them and it was difficult at times to really figure out why the movie was doing what it was. In the OT and even the PT there are moments of calm and reflection that really let the characters' emotions show through. There were scenes like those in both TFA and TLJ, which I enjoyed, but with how fast the rest of the movie was it was hard to track what was going on.

As a result of that I honestly haven't found either film very memorable and when I was watching TLJ I had to actively pick my brain to remember some of the important bits from TFA.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-01-08 02:59pm

Imperial528 wrote:
2018-01-08 02:09pm
Does kind of muddle the waters for how much of the old EU was carried over versus how much is straight gone or is present but in a different way.
It's important to note, however, that even though certain old EUisms may have been recycled, that doesn't mean every aspect gets carried over with them. For example, Thrawn's backstory is now totally different.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Imperial528 » 2018-01-08 03:04pm

Yeah, I expect that. What I'm wondering mostly is if they're carrying over grouped things or more just picking bits to carry over that they feel work. I.e. if they carry over A, B, and C can we expect the related X, Y, and Z, or is it more exclusive.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Sky Captain » 2018-01-08 03:17pm

Imperial528 wrote:
2018-01-08 01:13pm
I consider inconsistent because it begs the question "Why hasn't this been done before when it would have been far more useful in the past?" and from what I recall the film does not answer that question nor justify why this circumstance is unique.I recall that as well, but one thing I thought was curious about the scene is that the impact with Supremacy is neatly contained in a single plane across the ship, and its shield segments are aligned much the same way. If the Raddus hit the section with the sabotaged shield then I have no issue with it. I can't remember exactly if the sabotaged segment was on the same side though.
Yeah, actually if writers cared they could have explained FTL ramming working this time as hacker guy hacking the shield system to get onboard disabling it. Then we see FO officers on the bridge freaking out about why shields just went down while computer techs do their best to restore the system. Meanwhile Resistance cruiser turns around and jumps into Supremacy while shields are down.

It would show ramming work, but require extremely unlikely circumstances that almost never would happen in normal combat operations and perfectly explain why no one has built dedicated anti capital ship missiles consisting of big chunk of armor, hyperdrive and droid brain.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vendetta » 2018-01-08 03:40pm

The question is why would you ever assume it wouldn't work?

During the chase in ESB Leia specifically says they couldn't jump to lightspeed in the asteroid field, which implies extremely strongly that collision with local realspace objects is in fact a factor in entering hyperspace.

So unless you're going to argue that ke=1/2mv^2 does not exist in Star Wars, lightspeed ramming with hyperspace engines has always been a thing, but nobody has been in a position which allowed it to be used in an offensive capacity on screen. (And all the EU authors were too dumb to think of it, but that's not saying much).

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Sky Captain » 2018-01-08 04:20pm

There has to be some reason in universe why this tactic is so difficult no one bothers building dedicated weapon around it. Shields seem to be the most obvious explanation. As far as kinetic energy during jump go it is impossible to tell since hyperspace probably is different dimension or something like that with different physics. If during transition into hyperspace when ship is close to lightspeed, but still in realspace normal kinetic energy equations apply that implies cheap planet killer weapons.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-01-08 04:44pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-01-08 09:43am
I like it how you keep asserting that they're 'made out of thin air', like they were just invented during the movie. We saw them inventing it in the MacGuyver Room. Heaven forbid that they just have that technology - no, it has to be 'made up out of thin air', because prejudicial language to explain a really mundane plot point makes your argument stronger :)
1.) DJ literally invents his cloaking out of thin air on the spot

2.) Lets think real hard about the opening of this movie, where cloaks would have been really useful for an activity ongoing. You know where it would have been really great to escape something without an enemy seeing you, yet despite having those exact ships this was not done.

So its either they are not a normal thing, bashed together. Or they had them the whole time, and for some reason didn't use them. Even when they were evacuating the smaller ships to the Raddus later on. Both situations are equally stupid, which stupidity do you choose?
Yes, yes, you're so intelligent. You saw cloaking devices and instead of just going "oh ok, they have those now", you had an aneurysm because in your made-up head space you think it's impossible for something to exist unless you had seen it before you walked into the film.
Being an uncritical sycophant like yourself, I don't expect you to understand intelligence. But as you would know if you had reading comprehension, I have no issue with cloaking devices existing at all, just how they exist and are used in this movie. If you want cloaking devices, fine. Establish you have cloaking devices, and then think about the ramifications of that inside your universe.

For instance, why did the bombers not have cloaking devices in the opening? You don't even need Poe to charge, the dreadnought would never have known they were there according to you (visible light being an intrusive, sciency thing you have not time for). They had the tech at this very site, why would they put it on transports and nothing else? Would that be incredibly disruptive to warfare in SW. Yep, Does its ready existence invalidate a good bit of the previous films, especial the last one that you doggedly insist MUST have been immediately before this? Yep.

Also, Needa establishes ships MF size can't have cloaking devices in TESB. I don't have an exact size on the TLJ transports in question, but they look maybe just a bit bigger.
It's not a concession at all. You're appealing to Atomic Rockets, as if anything at all in Star Wars has ever obeyed those sorts of sci-fi considerations. There's nothing in the actual movies to support you.
I'm sorry, does physics scare you? Do you know what site you are on.

If you would like to discuss this as pure fantasy I suggest you start a thread in the appropriate forum. This is the SciFi section, and even if you want to call this SciFantacy that pesky "Sci" part is still there.
Oh no! Clearly that must mean it cannot exist. No movie can actually add anything, no matter how inconsequential or tangential - ever - it always has to be something that's happened before, or else its prima facie invalid.
Again, you are quibbling. Its not the existence of the tech, its the lack of consistent and uniform application of it to the setting, wherever and in whatever movie that happens.
What the fuck are you talking about? You are just flat out making shit up:

I don't see jack shit about communicators there, or anywhere else in the script. Please, quote the part from the script which says any of this utter bullshit you're spewing. No one ever says "oh the communicators worked because the hacked DS control room argle bargle". It's a fantasy you invented in your head. Nothing ever seen in Star Wars remotely precludes the use of a fucking space radio between ships.
I didn't say anything about the communicators worked because they hacked the controls. I said they got the communicators from the control room AND hacked the controls. Together that allowed them to do what they did. Though you make a good point, the fact that R2 had access the their computer, including communications, makes the case why they were not discovered using said communications. Thanks for once again proving the superior story craft of a group of upstarts using 1970s tech and a shoe string budget over people with literally limitless technology and money in comparison.

The point being they didn't just bring in their own random shit and magically it worked. They used the facilities own equipment, which unsurprisingly worked in said facility). The writers realized this, and made sure R2 did what he did and we see them acquire the comms. You probably didn't register this at the time because the whole point of such details to make thinks smooth and seamless, not so haltingly improbable that you have to stop and ask why.

That's really what you are missing. You think its stupid to have to have these things explained, but what these things are doing is making explainations unnecessary.
Who says? You? Prove it.
Your right. Its actually worse than that for you. Maz is in the Mid Rim, but Crait is not just in the Outer Rim, its in the a remote region of the outer rim. In other words, that comm signal went even farther than I thought.

They had the ability to communicate far beyond the Outer Rim and did so on screen. Discontinuity proven.
I'm not even sure what this means. Do we have some reason to assume Maz has access to the kind of powerful communications facility Crait has, and which they need? You seem to think so, but you're not explaining why.
It doesn't matter, as they already proved they can communicate inside the outer rim and beyond. Its not my fault the Rebels are idiots and not only don't know they can communicate, but DID communicate.

Is there something about "come to XXXXXX" that requires some sort of special communication? They don't even have to encrypt it, they are already discovered.

Or are we supposed to believe that there is nobody who can relay a message or is even some of the people they actually want to communicate with inside this giant swath of the galaxy that includes at least a radius extending from the remote outer rim to some point inside the mid rim? I can't actual assume you know anything about SW geography, this means a good chunk of the outer rim is is inside direct communications range of the Raddus. And that's assuming Maz's inner rim location is the extent of their range, and that she is on the closer side of the inner rim.

Also, since its been established that the Rebels can hyper in and out of the battlefield at will with no problem, and galactic travel times being what they are, this is all a red herring. At any time they could send someone wherever they want. To a place with all the power required (as if that matters, but given this abandoned thirty year old base could do it any Galactic Union telegram service will suffice), or directly to whomever they were trying to contact in the first place (some of them at least).

And since you seem intent to believe that Crait's armored shell must be compromised after 30 years, or Pink must be wrong because she has never been there, you must think she is really stupid to think there is a working shield generator and "powerful" communications system on ready standby for use.

This is such a stupid non-problem for so many reasons it boggles the mind that this is a plot point. I am not surprised you are hung up on though.
It's not a "discontinuity" at all, you're just being a bloody-minded a moron who refuses to listen to the film's dialog.
Show, don't tell. They showed the comms working just fine. I did here the dialogue of them talking to someone vast inter galactic distances away from them just fine too, so your dialogue defense betrays you. We see them do exactly what we are told they can't do. From that very ship, before we factor in they can go almost wherever they want, whenever they want, to do the same.
Ah yes, because "allies" in this context clearly must mean treaty allies engaged in active hostilities, as opposed to say, friends who can provide them with material aid.
Material aid? Is that what Leia was calling them for, material aid? Yeah...

But lets have a conversation about this with General Hux
Hux: "Destroy that Rebel SCUM!!!"

Crewman: "Ummm, sir, those technically aren't Rebel. That's the Continuum of Sarkon, who have pledged only limited bomber support and have only ratified portions of Organa's program. In fact, the refused to actually sign up to the self styled Rebellion, and will only commit a maxium of 20% of their combat forces."

Hux: "Oh, well, that changes everything! I would hate to mischaracterize someone hostile to us, actively called into battle by the Rebels we are pursuing. That would just be dreadful!

Crewman: "Perhaps if I had the bridge log record your command as "rebel" instead of "Rebel," this would alleviate any slight to the Sarkon's."

Hux: "You're right. We all know part of the First Orders ideology is meticulous attention to diplomatic technicalities and the scrupulous adherence to courtesies."

Snoke: "HUX!!!!. Did I just here you improperly logged Sarkons as the proper noun Rebels!!!!" *Force Choke*
This is your world dipshit.
https://nofilmschool.com/2014/07/martin ... story-plot

But sure, Martin Scorcese, film director, doesn't know what he's talking about.

Also "film" is not generally considered "literature". Just a note.
Where is the part about where you spend 20% of your movie in service to characters with no meaningful contribution to the movie? Hey, you know who had stories as described in that article and were relevant to the plot. All the rest of them.
To tell the story they wanted to tell.
Exactly, regardless to the entries of previous artists. Such a great way to handle a vast setting crafted by thousands of craftsmen and artists, doing whatever you want regardless of the legacy of the IP you bought precisely because of that previous work.

That's a great value bulding strategy if I ever saw one. I believe its called scorched earth. How did TLJ do int he box office compared to TFA again?
What the fuck does "TIE Fighters find them easily enough" (are you suggesting that 'armored' means 'hidden' too?) have to do with the price of tea in China? It's not even clear what your complaint is anymore. That the plot is somehow flawed because the First Order didn't send out surveyors to find a tunnel through which they could enter the base without a frontal assault? Oh no!
Practical:

Q. Vympel has to build a hardened bunker that must be able to resist ground and air assault of a highly futuristic and destructive character. Do you:

a - Build your bunker in a geographically stable area of dense, uniform, sold bedrock with zero unnecessary exposure to foundations?

b - Build your bunker in a fissue ridden substrate with access large enough for dozen meter wide freighters to safely transverse, including passages that penetrate directly into your facility that masses of animals and people can trasnferse?

Extra Credit: If you were to pick b, would you waste your time creating armored doors that can resit all but DEATH STAR!!!! technology when there are obvious surface accesses any enemy can just waltz through with a simple earth mover?

The worst part about this whole thing was what did those few seconds of the MF and some TIEs flying through some crysal encrusted fissues actually get us? It was throwaway shit emblematic of the worst of the Prequels. And what is the problem with the base just having a secret armored back door a la the Endor shield generator complex so Pink, C3PO and R2 don't have to be boobs?
Didn't you? "There was an open rock entrance into there, which means the FO could easily have bombarded them to death."
Oh, you think things have to be bombarded from orbit or not at all. Interesting...

I suggest you rewatch some of the other SW movies and re-access.
ZOMG, you mean that Admiral Holdo trusted the plans of a 30 year old base which she had never fucking seen as opposed to the extensive survey of potential tunnels? What a dumb plot!
The extensive survey, you know where the droids assessed the base that was in good enough shape to have a functional shield, echoed her assessment. But damn, even that couldn't not be contradicted just minutes later. Is this a nitpick. Yep. But that's why its so baffling that it exists at all, its so excruciatingly unnecessary.

I mean, were you sitting in your seat going "Oooooooh man, I was really sweating bullets! I was so shocked they flipped the switch on me! I mean, both Pink AND the droids were wrong. Holy fucking suspense!"

Nah, you didn't give a shit because you knew it was the case. You knew, the second that door was breached, that like clockwork a plot honey hole would open up right where it was needed, what the movie already established be damned.
Why would his face melt off? What, you didn't notice the windshield?
Oh, I don't know, something to do with space age supper durable future materials going molton around me makes me think the air might be a bit warmer than comfortable. That staring directing into a laser beam, windshield or no, isn't good for your eyes. Especially a laser one meter wide already melting metal before it even fires.

But then there is that part where that windshield, even if its made of of whatever magic death star laser proof material you think it is, doesn't cover their fucking heads.

Image
Yes, he does. He goes from a cowardly defector doing anything he can to run from the First Order to being deeply loyal to his friends (chiefly, Rey). In TLJ he goes from just caring about his immediate circle of friends (hence his attempt to abandon the Raddus) to accepting his identity as a rebel.
Except he didn't abandon the Raddus because he didn't care about the Rebellion (and we know him staying there would have accomplished nothing, just like Poe accomplished nothing), but because he wanted to help Rey (which might have accomplished nothing). Then he directly contradicts the leadership of said Rebellion, later getting most of them killed as you kindly reminded me.

Then when he was actually going to sacrifice his life for the Rebellion, selflessly attempting to save all of them, not just his friends, he is physically stopped from doing so. At which point what he learns is to save who/what you love rather than destroy that which threatens everyone. Its better to live for the few, than die for the many. This is your movie dude...
"Most". Most what? A handful of delusionals who think movies are wikipedia articles, and everything needs to stop so some character can explain shit to the audience?
Again, this thing was out of the top three by week three.
Oh I see, so your argument is that the Rebels should have per-emptively arrived at the Battle of Endor with uncrewed ships so they could suicide them, because they have a TARDIS and can see the future! Heaven forbid that mass suicide might not be high on their list of priorities and they may prefer to, you know, live to fight another day. Everyone in fiction is a Japanese kamikaze pilot now.
I can only assume you are sensing the weakness of your argument, your flailing is getting entertaining.

I am saying if you know or expect you are going to die, and you have zero way to seriously damage your enemy conventionally in a desperate situation, that's exceptional sacrifice becomes appealing because there is no down side. People don't charge machine gun nets because everything is going to plan and we are going to win anyway, they do it when desperate or they are out of choices.

If you are at Endor, you just found out the DS shield is up, you just got caught in a pincer attach between the DS and a fleet many more times powerful than yours, and you happened to hear that exchange between Ackbar and Lando, you are in that type of situation.

Ackbar outright says this, but he closes with the SDs anyway. That's a suicidal move by his own admission. Maybe not instantly so, but he expected eventual death.

So if that's the case, if you have reconciled yourself to a fight to the death, are you going to pick the manor of your death to cause the maximum damage on your way out or something less?

Now Endor has a special circumstance in that the Rebel fleet was always expendable. Their sole job was to keep any Imperial pretense away from the strike craft making the actual run on the DS via setting up a perimeter. I think we can all agree that while not desirable, if they lost all their cap ships bet still succeeded in destroying the DS that's still a win. Especially since this was the only chance. This is why they made their suicidal charge vise retreating. But it also means that they needed to exist as long as possible to cover the DS attack, so maximum damage to the Imperial fleet is not the goal, delaying it is. It does no good for the cap ship to destroy 99% of the Imperial fleet instantly if that 1% is left unopposed to spoil the attack.

That said, as the TLJ just showed us the damage effectiveness between conventional warship to conventional warship tonnage is FAR more effective using hyperspace attacks vice turbo laser exchanges. So while it might not make sense to sacrifice MC80s for ISDs if you are trying to remain in being as long as possible, it is an unbelievable deal to trade on MC80 for an Executor many hundreds of times as large and maybe equally as advantaged in combat power.

But they didn't. These Rebels who were ready to die. Expecting to die. Resigned to dying. They decided to not use this tool at their disposal. And this is even though the mass disparity between and MC80 and the Executor is FAR more favorable than the Raddus and the Supremacy. Why.

Why. Why. Why. Were they cowards? Were they stupid? Were they just not dedicated to their cause? And we aren't even into purposely designed hyperspace weapons. This is just adhoc shit.
No, she didn't take 'several minutes' of pounding at all. The Rebel's cargo frigate was destroyed first, and Raddus was briefly under fire while Kylo Ren tore her up in his starfighter. Again, you have fuck all idea about story-telling. You see Hux ignore the cruiser and think "hur durr, I guess this scene doesn't matter".
If by briefly you mean several minutes, you are correct. Its actually worse than you think. Rabbus survived that time under the COMBINED power of the Supremacy's fire and effective starfighter attack.

The fact is whenever the Rebels wanted to, they could have done exactly what they did. You have no good reason to provide why they didn't, instead slowly letting their fleet be whittled down before doing it anyway.

Also, since again we see they can use transports to hyper in and hyper out unmolested at any time, instead of wasting their time at that casino Finn and Rose could just have slowly ferried the entire crews of all of the vessels back and forth to safety. To be honest, none of the Rebel lives were actually in danger during that entire chase, the only thing that had to be in jeopardy was their hardware. Pride fucking with them I guess, but thats a hell of a stupid way to die.
The only person displaying 'fanboy rage' here is you. You're the one having a big sooky cry about how you're so much more valuable than casual fans after all, in probably one of the most absurdly entitled displays I've ever seen.
Valuable you can call it. Lucrative is probably more accurate, and strictly in the sense that I am a mark for merchandising. You call that privilege, I often think of it as being a sucker.

What I am not, however, is an unquestioning consumer who has zero ability to parse quality from gilded turds. I bet you are far more lucrative a fan than me since you like this latest stuff.
But no, your argument is a big load of bullshit. The "Imperial fleet was ordered not to attack" excuse only goes so far as to the moment the Rebel fleet engaged the Imperial fleet.
Says...nobody? Do you have the annexes to the Emperors OPORD, because I didn't hear Piett say anything other than "we need only keep them from escaping." Which they did, even if it was made easier by the Rebels not trying to escape.

There is zero evidence that the Imperials ever went all in, because the most decorated fleet officer of the Rebel Alliance told us what that would look like. And to be perfectly honest there is very little to show the Rebels were doing much damage to the Imperials either. Sure, I won't claim NO damage, we see an ISD explode based on nothing related to the Executor. But the Executor itself is written to be a fluke, an Imperial Hood to the Alliand Bismark. That was obviously an unexpected development by both sides.
At that point, the Executor - employing your logic - should have been capable of wiping out the Rebel fleet all by itself. This never happened. Or is your brilliant argument going to be "the Imperial fleet never went full bore during the whole battle because they're retarded but this is better than the First Order because ... hey look over there, a giraffe!"
So they take out the Executor because of a fluke. An unfortunate occurrence but also unpredictable. Its irrelevant. Destroying the Executor didn't win the day for the Rebels. In fact, its didn't matter to the Emperor whether ALL of the star destroyers were destroyed, as long as they succeeded in keeping the Rebels there to be destroyed by the DS. And should that have been what transpired it would still be a decisive win for the Empire. They have Star Destroyers to spare, the Rebels would be nonexistent. Of course we know the Emperor would have died anyway, but that wouldn't have mattered to anyone on the Rebel fleet. Its not like the was just going to surrender to Luke if it wasn't exposed due to the Endor mission.

The only event that allowed the Rebels to win in space had nothing to do with anything the Imperials or the Rebels did over Endor, the only thing that mattered was what happened on Endor. Up until that point the Rebel fleet was completely without agency from the second they arrived, it was either be destroyed by the DS or be destroyed by the fleet if they attempted to escape.

I suspect the Emperor knew they would fight to the death, which is why he felt comfortable telling his fleet to just accept the damage and instead showcase his new toy. Again, nothing outside the surface of Endor changed that state of affairs.
Yes, heroic figures often engage in suicidal attacks. That's why they're heroic figures. They also don't make that choice for subordinates.
Oh yeah? Did the Iron Brigade take a poll? Did the 101st hold a vote to stay put during the Bulge? Stop talking nonsense, history is replete with units put into such situations en mass and being considered heroic to the man. The distinction between hero and forgotten is generally success or luck.
It's not about "criticisms of the OT", its pointing out your bullshit about "the setting" is just that. It's a fantasy you've concocted in your head. It doesn't match any fucking movie.
So there not being hyperspace weapons doesn't match any other movie?

If there is no problem with shields being inconsistent, why did RotJ go to such lengths to explain them away? We went over this already. Would the demise of the Executor be better to you if there was no exploding tower/bridge shield failure confirmation/panicked call for firepower? Its all fluff to you apparently.
Wait, what are you even talking about now? Of course the Raddus smashed through the shields. Why would admitting that blindingly obvious fact mean I "hate" (presumably) Star Wars?
Because you want a poorer universe. You aren't the thinking type, just like TLJ's writers, so lets go through this.

You might hate physics, but that's irrelevant because physics loves you and your world and the SWs world with a loving iron embrace. Physics tells us you can't get to c. You can approach it with ever greater levels of effort, but not reach it. This is true in SW, which is why they have hyperspace. In SWs when you get close to "light speed" the hyper-drive transitions you to hyperspace where the rules are different. So the real question here is how is the damage mode applied here.

If the Raddus hit the Supremacy while in realspace before transitioning to hyperspace, its by definition doing so at something less than c. The problem here is that this means relativistic weapons become effective in SWs. These weapons are down right primitive given the tech levels in SW, its the equivalent of spear men beating tanks in civilization as an intentional game mechanic.

Normally we excuse things like this by invoking fantastic defenses, like shields. We don't actually know how shields work, what they do to incoming fire, how they are maintained etc. We do know how they are used, they essentially can block anything except fantastic weapons, things like turbolasers which we also don't understand but know how they are used. If Supremacy had its shields up, and Raddus did its damage in real space, that means cheap R-bombs can kill anything. On the cheap. Even worse, given the size disparity between the two, the volume of the Raddus to the volume of the Supremacy means you don't even need a large R-bomb. Raddus was to Supremacy what a .22 is to a human. In other words an X-wing can be one shotted with a .50 cal slug or there abouts. And WORSE, the level of damage was so extreme its probable you can use a value significantly below c and get a lesser but effectively as devastating effect. And worst of all most is that these will be CHEAP, real space damage means you don't need a hyperdrive on every munition, just a launcher of some sort.

If the weapon delivers its damage from hyerspace that fundamentally changes everything we know about how hyperspace works. We have seen things exit hyperspace onto things (it was not as devastating as we see in TLJ), and we know matter of a certain mass will pull things out of hyperspace, but I don't think things interact until they are either both in or both out of hyperspace. Its also worth a thought about whether you are actually traveling faster in hyperspace, or the distances are just shorter. If its the first and you are interacting with real world objects you are talking energies delivered based on moving many times faster than c. I don't even know how to calculate that, it poor mans planet popper stuff surely.

In any case this means hyperspace munitions are expensive, but they are no undetectable and have infinite range. Galaxy Gun shit, only the authors of that trash didn't understand warheads don't matter at that point.

The damage we see is also interesting. If its just a realspace mass on mass collision I would expect the damage to radiate out from the point of impact, maybe with a crack along a seam or other structural. I would actual expect no visible ship left at all, but if the energies are less than catastrophic its definitely going to be a point impact, an no slice.

If the damage is inflicted in hyperspace who knows. From what I am seeing perhaps if you transition through the target you drag the matter along your route into hyperspace with you, and the collision reaction takes place inside hyperspace, explaining the lack of explosion destroying the rest of the ship. That could be useful if you want to penetrate a target vice just blow up on the matter you first make contact with, like maybe a facility deep in a planet (assuming you can address the gravity well issue), but this yields significantly less damage than expected. Though as I type this the true uniqueness of the damage seen might be because it had to crash the shield first, which has some unknown effect on follow on kinetic impact characteristics.

This is what that scene means Vympel.
Luke's 'power' has no bearing on whether he'd be a good teacher. These two things are not related at all.
Just like how good at math you are has no bearing on how well you teach it. We can save a lot of money having our history teachers take over calculus.
Yes yes, this is rapidly becoming a theme now. Movies aren't allowed to do anything new, ever. If it wasn't in the previous movies, even though you've offered not a single good reason in what circumstances it'd be remotely essential, it must be criticised.
This is the opposite of what I said. New things just have to be integrated into the setting as it exists. That's all. The problem is not that the exist at all, its that they are dumped in without a thought to the logical consequences.
Good god you're obtuse. You think the Force is a bunch of magic fucking spells, not a basically mystical philosophy.

You, an idiot: "Yoda didn't teach Luke anything about astral projection!"
Using the force is a skill. Like anything else it is learned and practiced and exercised. You said Yoda did something, and now Luke can do this. We saw Yoda do nothing that should lead to this specific result. There is nothing about Luke and Yoda's interaction that is not applicable to any other Jedi we have seen.
Oh hey, I wonder if Luke projecting his image to distract Kylo Ren without ever once attacking him fits that bill!
Yeah, there is zero reason this can't be used offensively. None at all.
I believe I already pointed out that's obviously false, since, you know, things change following actual events, but hey, you do you.
I am not saying they didn't happen that way, just that your shitty movie did so without providing a plausible reason how anyone could or would know these things. The only way anyone can know what happened when Kyko and Luke met is because the FO sources told people. They were the only ones there.
They didn't do any such thing. That he's not really there is deliberately telegraphed for an attentive viewer from the moment he appears. He looks different, and younger. He has the saber that was broken. His feet aren't making prints in the salt. This is deliberate. It's not a mistake.
Fuck what an intentionally boring next ten minutes if we are just supposed to sit around and watch Kylo learn what we already know.

Yes, there should be clues for the attentive viewer because the way this trick works is you see the reveal and you think back and go "Fuck, that's right, it all makes sense now! Mind fuck!" The Usual Suspects 101. You thinking this was an intentional spoil by the writers is hilarious. They did spoil it through incompetence as discussed, but no writer gives away the twist intentionally.
Yes, I'm sure you could write a better Star Wars movie, you, the dumbass who thinks Yoda's lessons to Luke involved teaching him fucking magic spells.
This is precious. You think the Force isn't indistinguishable from magic...
This is just incoherent, nonsensical ranting at this point. It's not making any sort of actually intelligible point. There's nothing 'wasteful' about his manner of death at all. He goes out in a display of massive Force power that's exactly in tune with the idealised vision of what Jedi are supposed to be. That's all there is to it.
He did something a hologram, basic SW tech could accomplish (HAS accomplished in many SciFi plots). So amazing.
So what? Luke's also holding a lightsaber that isn't actually there. There's no reason to assume Leia can actually 'feel' him in a real way.
Thanks for substantiating the my claim. I can only assume you talked yourself into circles in all this ranting. The point I made was Luke CAN interact with real matter, which means he could have done all sorts of far more useful things through his astral projection.

Being able to be anywhere, and interact with anything physically, now THAT is impressive and useful.
I don't know what version of the movie you watched, but I saw multiple Resistance fighters watching Luke stand out there in front of the First Order units before they left.
Nope, they all leave in the middle of the sequence. Thats why they don't all die when Kylo raids the place immediately after he is duped.
Are deer subterranean creatures now?
Its funny you mention that. Do you know who else had no knowledge about a particular species subterranean characteristics? I will give you a hint, their names end with "bacca" and "Sue".
Given that hyperspace travel has never taken weeks, I can only assume this is yet another made up thing that exists in your head which you think consitutes "the setting".
I didn't say the travel took weeks, I said she could have taken weeks in between. She could have sat and Finns hospital bed for a few days. Rolled in the sheets with Poe. Taken a vacation. Helped the Rebels with any of her plethora of unearned and unsubstantiated Mary Sue powers. Hey I have an idea, practice with her fucking light saber so her proficiency on the island later makes some sense over what we see at the end or TFA, which you say was like yesterday.

It doesn't matter, there is nothing in TFA or TLJ that says the events we see in TLJ are linear.
"All the major systems" = the galaxy now?
Oh, you think there are only thousands and thousands of worlds in the galaxy period, vice thousands and thousands of major worlds and MILLIONS of other worlds?

Are you new to this franchise. This isn't like the colonies of Kobal, its a bit grander. I agree is easier if you can count the scenery on your fingers which I guess you probably have to do, but that won't suffice here.

I repeat my question. Feel free to answer it.
And I repeat my answer. If you know what information theory is, you would know why what you imagine the answer is to your question is stupid. Remember, you are the one why decided the Force wasn't magic.
No, that's exactly why Poe called it off. Because it wouldn't work. Sorry - he literally says this.
Nope. But lets assume you are right. This invalidates the entire arc of Poe, because the lesson Leia was teaching was that winning with no reckoning with the consequences is Pyrrhic. Leaders can understand that winning isn't everything. The battle isn't the war.

If Poe wasn't going to win on Hoth2, the lesson couldn't be learned. All he did was quite over fear of loss, not sober assessment that the likely win wasn't worth that loss. That ain't leadership.
Given her course was taking her perpendicular to the target the walkers were protecting, I can see walker pilots wondering just what the hell she was doing.
Do I need to draw a picture for you why you can't catch up to someone if you are moving perpendicular to them?
Vader isn't plot, dingus, he's story too. The plot serves the story.

This is not to say plot does not matter, but like most annoying people on the internet who don't know anything about what actually makes a movie, you think useful criticism of film constitues nothing but nitpicking the plot to demonstrate how you're smarter than the writer. It's laughable.
Yep, that nitpick that all space combat ever seen over eight movies now makes no sense. So minor. So inconsequential. All the star wars in Star Wars has been trivialized and its of no matter, Rose got to free space giraffes!!!!

You are waxing poetic about story and plot when its irrelevant, both of them fail miserably.
Wow, you're so goddamn stupid.

1. Luke's entire arc is based around his failure as a master. I know it was hard to see what with Yoda giving him a big lecture about failure, but there it is.
2. Poe sends Finn and Rose go on a mission to disable the Supremacy's hyperspace tracker, and this completely fails. The result is the compromise of the Resistance plan and the slaughter of hundreds of Resistance fighters.
3. Rey goes to save Ben, and completely fails. Ben refuses to turn and instead seizes power for himself.

But sure: "but they kerploded big ships! No failure! Weeeee pew pew pew what is story. Also I think Snoke is the main villain and his death is a victory". That works too.
So in a movie called "Star WARS," The fact that they utterly destroyed their opponents war machine, destroy maybe hundreds to thousands of millions more tonnage than the lose, killing millions of the enemy, pretty much every FO mook that appears on screen, and thwart the primary objective of said enemy is entirely counterbalanced because some feels?

And Luke failed? Well technically he did, but not in THIS movie. Luke redeemed himself in this movie. So he died, well, at the beginning of the movie he was just waiting to die anyway without contributing to anything, so no change there. When he died was it with a smile on his face or a frown? Triumph or defeat?

Leia escaped from the Rebel base, along with every protagonist (which was if you remember the primary goal of this super locally focused plot, as literally spelled out) and since the help not coming had nothing to do with the events of this movie that failure happened before too whenever she fucked up wining their support.

Rey contributes to Luke's redemption, to the death of the senior enemy (so there is a new boss, there always is, its still a victory), and gains a new confidence in herself, escaping the past. You might of noticed a difference in her condition and attitude versus that of Luke at the end of ESB. It has something do do with having all her limbs, with none of her friends alive and not made into a throne room art display.

Finn, though he doesn't grow one fucking bit, is alive and that's far more than he deserves. He saves his love interest. He isn't in prison for gross negligence in the death of most of his crew. His actor still has a job for unknown reasons.

Poe isn't executed for active mutiny like he should be, contributing directly to the death of most of his supposed comrades for no reason.

The Rebellion is not dead, for unfathomable reasons directly contrary to what we observe. Like I said, nothing happened in this movie that would have changed the minds of anyone supporting the Rebellion, them having no actual support was the reality at the start. If anything they have MORE support now that the FO released the favorable account of Luke's actions that only they no.

Some bad shit happened, but this is a carnival ride compared the the forlorn folk staring at the galactic wheel from the medical frigate.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-01-08 05:13pm

Vendetta wrote:
2018-01-08 03:40pm
The question is why would you ever assume it wouldn't work?
I actually wondered this years ago, but someone pointed out a scene where three star destroyers (I think) bounced harmlessly off the Executors shields. Something about being massless in hyperspace or something. Didn't really matter, it just set the precedent that it wasn't viable.

We're told more recently in TFA that you can fly straight through a planetary shield but it's considered suicide *because you'll hit the planet*. Now Han displays what can only be considered godly timing and hits that minuscule window, which is dubious, but whatever. A RKKV however would have no such qualms about impacting the planet though.
There has to be some reason in universe why this tactic is so difficult no one bothers building dedicated weapon around it.
That is precisely the question a bunch of SW geek fans on a site dedicated to over analyzing stuff should be able to answer. The targets for these attacks are massive, so accuracy shouldn't be an issue. Hyperdrives and droids are cheap- certainly more so than even an X-Wing. Like I said, it's basically about whether you're going to use missiles and how much you want to spend.

There's a reason we don't make giant ass battleships anymore.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Nephtys » 2018-01-08 05:39pm

This is rapidly becoming that Simpsons scene, where someone jokes about a 'magic xylophone' and hopes a writer got fired for an inane detail.

Let's take Hyperspace Ramming: What's different? Oh, how about a 3.5km long Cruiser doing it from a very specific range on the run-up to lightspeed? Shields afterall, make you utterly invulnerable to all things.
OR
Perhaps, one may speculate, that the Raddus is too much for warship level shields to deflect. Even on the Supremacy, which seems to be more of a giant mobile command and logistics base and only second a large battleship. Mind you again, the Raddus is much larger than even ISDs and is longer than the Resurgent-class SDs.

So at the point where hyper-ramming becomes potent enough to do something meaningful, is also the point where it stops being both economical in money and in lives, considering that it takes hundreds or thousands to run one of those ships even when crammed to the brim with automation.

Alternatively:
"This universe has droid fighters. Why are living pilots even there? Horrible universe, 0/10. It should be about planets millions of miles away exchanging hyper-ICBMs."

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CaoCao » 2018-01-08 05:44pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-01-05 02:02am
CaoCao wrote:
2018-01-04 11:38am
Tha past of the Force, the past of Rey

- Past of the Force: Bespin was there for the Vader vs Luke ESB duel, then the KoR and the killings, then Luke seeing his academy in flames.
- Past of Rey: Her parents leaving her behind, flying a spaceship out of Jakku to, supposedly, have a few drinks.
And the Knights of Ren headed by Kylo slaughtering people was there to see what Luke's failure had wrought. Easy.
It was in chronological order. Whatever, since we don't know how JJ is going to write Episode IX out of this plot hole.
Vympel wrote:
2018-01-05 02:02am
My bad, you're right. Even if it was lumbering right at the reach of their fighters and bombers, even if a single fighter managed to destroy it's point defenses, and even if its allies twirled their thumbs instead of launching starfighter coverage, they should have left it for another time. There's absolutely no reason to think that a dreadnough, that has the ability to penetrate shields, would pose an inmediate future threat to a fleet that, at the very beggining of the movie, is on the run because their base was found.
No, there isn't, because they thought they would be free and clear once they were in hyperspace. There's no universe where destroying a Dreadnought when you're trying to get away with all of your assets is preferable to attacking one at the time and place of your choosing - preferably a time when your entire force isn't at risk of being blown to pieces if one hotshot pilot fucks up. That's an insane level of risk.
You seem to not get it:
- The FO found them.
- They had no way of knowing how or if it could happen again
- The dreadnought was a threat to both the fleet and any base where they could settle.
- They had the chance of doing it right there.
Vympel wrote:
2018-01-05 02:02am
And? There's no need for the recipient of a message to be nearby. Finn and Rose crossed the Galaxy to Canto Bight. If, by some technobabble magic, they couldn't make the call from the Raddus, then they (meaning Finn and Rose or someone with a hyperspace capable shuttle) could have gone to another star system and do it. Hell, they could send a shuttle forward to Crait and do the call, there's no need for the remaining of the Resistance to be huddled around the transmitter for it to work. The more you think the problem, the stupider it gets.
Your assumption that powerful broadband communicators requiring large power sources can be had on any planet just by landing on it and walking up to a futuristic phone booth is what?

But sure, send a ship ahead to Krait, that's a great idea. That way, the Resistance gets to stay on its fleet which is in no way under any threat. Because the point of hiding on Krait wasn't at all to wait there until the First Order passed (wait, it was).
It's too difficult to get it, isn't it? They had a shuttle that could go anywhere and they needed support, fuel, or a way to escape. They could have gone anywhere and contact whomever. They don't need a phone boot.

BTW, Crait is not some super special place with a special tansmitter not seen anywhere in the galaxy. In fact, it was a mine where they unloaded a few crates before Scar Squadron found them and had to run. They never settled there (in canon).

And your idea that they would be unnoticed in the only planet nearby is ridiculous, they would be wary of anyone using a scape pod to survive and fight another day.

I drop the rest and this, no point really.
Vendetta wrote:
2018-01-08 03:40pm
During the chase in ESB Leia specifically says they couldn't jump to lightspeed in the asteroid field, which implies extremely strongly that collision with local realspace objects is in fact a factor in entering hyperspace.

So unless you're going to argue that ke=1/2mv^2 does not exist in Star Wars, lightspeed ramming with hyperspace engines has always been a thing, but nobody has been in a position which allowed it to be used in an offensive capacity on screen. (And all the EU authors were too dumb to think of it, but that's not saying much).
Nope, hyperspace is obstructed by objects with gravity in real plane (celestial bodies and interdictor cruisers). Entrance to hyperspace was supposedly blocked by objects in real space (ships, asteroids, etc.). Interdictors explain how that works, spacecraft is going at 0 speed while traveling in hs, which is why they don't ram those cruisers or planets when pulled out of it. When they are yanked from hs they are floating and have to start they sublight engines. Interdictors are canon and ESB is canon. If what you're saying would be true, the Devastator would have been torn appart in Rogue One (and the idea that they would need more acceleration time doesn't fly).

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2018-01-08 07:57pm

Interdictors use exotic physics, the reason why those ships are floating when yanked out of hyperspace is because the Interdictors' grav well nullified their movement.

Maybe when a ship jumps into hyperspace, there's a magic moment between its sublight and its supralight-hyperspatial state, it could be tied into acceleration or something.

The same canon showing of the Interdictors also has this co-equal showing of hyperspace-realspace interaction:

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2018-01-08 08:21pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-01-08 05:13pm
I actually wondered this years ago, but someone pointed out a scene where three star destroyers (I think) bounced harmlessly off the Executors shields. Something about being massless in hyperspace or something. Didn't really matter, it just set the precedent that it wasn't viable.
Maybe those SDs, by virtue of miscalculating their realspace emergence and hitting the Executor, were in the process of decelerating so it's not the same as the Raddus accelerating into the Supremacy. Either way, that scene with the Executor's not canon anymore, rite?
We're told more recently in TFA that you can fly straight through a planetary shield but it's considered suicide *because you'll hit the planet*. Now Han displays what can only be considered godly timing and hits that minuscule window, which is dubious, but whatever. A RKKV however would have no such qualms about impacting the planet though.
That's for an unsuspecting base with its shields probably not on combat alert... an RKKV would need to penetrate armoring that can withstand turbolasers, and also be precise enough to hit the target from really long distances that seem to beyond SW real-time weapons-lock range... the Raddus had the benefit of hitting the Supremacy which was not only huge but also within sensor range...

Say if a hyperdrive-RKKV was shot at Alderaan's palace, to cruise missile strike the Organas and decapitate Rebel leadership... it'd have to be more precise than the Falcon which landed in the middle of nowhere in Starkiller Base. If the RKKV missed, the planetary shields go up and become "concentrated" and solid, no longer the passive power-saving fractional refresh crap.
That is precisely the question a bunch of SW geek fans on a site dedicated to over analyzing stuff should be able to answer. The targets for these attacks are massive, so accuracy shouldn't be an issue. Hyperdrives and droids are cheap- certainly more so than even an X-Wing. Like I said, it's basically about whether you're going to use missiles and how much you want to spend.

There's a reason we don't make giant ass battleships anymore.
Maybe accuracy is an issue. That's why we see missiles being delivered by fighters that go up close. Or bombers that literally have to drop dumb bombs!
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-01-08 08:58pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2018-01-08 08:21pm
Maybe those SDs, by virtue of miscalculating their realspace emergence and hitting the Executor, were in the process of decelerating so it's not the same as the Raddus accelerating into the Supremacy. Either way, that scene with the Executor's not canon anymore, rite?
I'll be honest, I don't know much of the context other than it was a ramming attempt. It's not canon, no, but the point was it addressed the issue- one common fictional tech (hyperdrive) was negated by another common fictional tech (shields). Done and dusted. Right now we're sitting on two capital ships that have deliberately rammed something in canon, both with devastating results. That's if we ignore the Malevolence *punching through a moon*.
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2018-01-08 08:21pm
That's for an unsuspecting base with its shields probably not on combat alert... an RKKV would need to penetrate armoring that can withstand turbolasers, and also be precise enough to hit the target from really long distances that seem to beyond SW real-time weapons-lock range... the Raddus had the benefit of hitting the Supremacy which was not only huge but also within sensor range...
I'm not certain they weren't on combat alert. They did just strike at the New Republic so a military response isn't absurd. Plus they're draining a sun- power should absolutely not be in an issue.

As to the accuracy... the new Battlefront 2 game (which is canon) has a ship jump in with enough precision to literally catch a person blown out an airlock in their own shuttle bay. In this film, the Falcon jumps in and drops off an escape pod extremely close (and probably only so far away to avoid capture). Amazing precision is possible- with 30+ year old tech. When you're talking about targets that are kilometers long, that kind of accuracy is more than sufficient.
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2018-01-08 08:21pm
Say if a hyperdrive-RKKV was shot at Alderaan's palace, to cruise missile strike the Organas and decapitate Rebel leadership... it'd have to be more precise than the Falcon which landed in the middle of nowhere in Starkiller Base. If the RKKV missed, the planetary shields go up and become "concentrated" and solid, no longer the passive power-saving fractional refresh crap.
That just forces the shields to be permanently on 'high' setting. Even if accuracy was an issue, just throw a dozen at the target and saturate it. Hell, maybe even knock the shield down. With Starkiller, send a few X-Wings with droids in them only. Just have them hyperspace down that fuck off huge barrel. Sure they're small comparatively, but it's a fuck off huge target and I'm guessing unleashing the power of a sun requires some decent engineering. Engineering that a 10 ton fighter hitting could throw out of balance- even before you consider lightspeed into the mix (however the fuck that works with physics). Maybe you don't destroy Starkiller- that probably does require something larger- but you can sure as hell stop it firing. One does not unleash the power of a star through damaged equipment if one has... you know what? They might still try firing it with catastrophic results. It is the FO after all.
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2018-01-08 08:21pm
Maybe accuracy is an issue. That's why we see missiles being delivered by fighters that go up close. Or bombers that literally have to drop dumb bombs!
The problem is going to be with things like Vulture Droid MK2, which does exactly what a Vulture Droid does until it finds itself in the right position to hyperdrive into something. Capital ships just don't move that fast relative to fighters, which can already fly through their shields. The Trade Federation would gladly trade 100 droid fighters for a Venator or other ISD sized target and they probably only need a handful to hit. Not that such a droid fighter exists, but that's the issue. If this were possible, it absolutely would have been made.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Sidewinder » 2018-01-08 09:50pm

I've yet to see the movie, but most reviews I see are negative. One guy is even petitioning to have The Last Jedi removed from the canon.
change.org wrote:Petitioning The Walt Disney Company

Have Disney strike Star Wars Episode VIII from the official canon.

Star Wars has long been a story about two things, the Jedi and Luke Skywalker. After over 260 novels where we could follow the adventures of that great hero you, the Walt Disney Company decided to strike all of that from the official canon and wiped out three decades of lore. We were excited to see Episode VII to see how our heroes lives turned out since you took away what we knew. We saw the death of Han Solo, we saw less than a minute of Luke Skywalker.

Episode VIII was a travesty. It completely destroyed the legacy of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi. It destroyed the very reasons most of us, as fans, liked Star Wars. This can be fixed. Just as you wiped out 30 years of stories, we ask you to wipe out one more, the Last Jedi. Remove it from canon, push back Episode IX and re-make Episode VIII properly to redeem Luke Skywalker's legacy, integrity, and character.

We stuck by you when you did things that hurt us before, so we ask you now, please don't let this film stand. Don't do this to us. Don't take something so many of us loved so much and destroy it like this. Let us keep our heroes.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-01-08 10:10pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-01-08 04:44pm
1.) DJ literally invents his cloaking out of thin air on the spot
Ah yes, that's the only possible interpretation of what he did. Not that he used an existing technique to spoof sensors, he 'invented' something on the spot. He's an inventor now.
2.) Lets think real hard about the opening of this movie, where cloaks would have been really useful for an activity ongoing. You know where it would have been really great to escape something without an enemy seeing you, yet despite having those exact ships this was not done.

So its either they are not a normal thing, bashed together. Or they had them the whole time, and for some reason didn't use them. Even when they were evacuating the smaller ships to the Raddus later on. Both situations are equally stupid, which stupidity do you choose?
Because what applies to the sensor signatures of small ships like transports applies to an enormous, multi-km long warship.
Being an uncritical sycophant like yourself, I don't expect you to understand intelligence. But as you would know if you had reading comprehension, I have no issue with cloaking devices existing at all, just how they exist and are used in this movie. If you want cloaking devices, fine. Establish you have cloaking devices, and then think about the ramifications of that inside your universe.

For instance, why did the bombers not have cloaking devices in the opening? You don't even need Poe to charge, the dreadnought would never have known they were there according to you (visible light being an intrusive, sciency thing you have not time for). They had the tech at this very site, why would they put it on transports and nothing else? Would that be incredibly disruptive to warfare in SW. Yep, Does its ready existence invalidate a good bit of the previous films, especial the last one that you doggedly insist MUST have been immediately before this? Yep.

Also, Needa establishes ships MF size can't have cloaking devices in TESB. I don't have an exact size on the TLJ transports in question, but they look maybe just a bit bigger.
"Why didn't the bombers have cloaks?!?!"

I assume because they wouldn't work on the bombers. Not hard, this stuff. Also, seeing something with the eyeball is generally a lot easier if its closer and approaching you.

"But TESB!"

You mean - *gasp* - something changed in the space of almost 40 years? Heaven forbid!
I'm sorry, does physics scare you? Do you know what site you are on.

If you would like to discuss this as pure fantasy I suggest you start a thread in the appropriate forum. This is the SciFi section, and even if you want to call this SciFantacy that pesky "Sci" part is still there.
Oh I'm sorry that I mocked your carefully constructed hard sci-fi version of Star Wars, which as we know has always been keenly aware of the principles of space warfare set out in Atomic Rockets. When did that happen again? Oh, literally no movie ever, but ok.
Again, you are quibbling. Its not the existence of the tech, its the lack of consistent and uniform application of it to the setting, wherever and in whatever movie that happens.
"Waah, these movies suck, how come they don't have hyperlight proton warhead ICBMs?!"
I didn't say anything about the communicators worked because they hacked the controls. I said they got the communicators from the control room AND hacked the controls. Together that allowed them to do what they did. Though you make a good point, the fact that R2 had access the their computer, including communications, makes the case why they were not discovered using said communications. Thanks for once again proving the superior story craft of a group of upstarts using 1970s tech and a shoe string budget over people with literally limitless technology and money in comparison.

The point being they didn't just bring in their own random shit and magically it worked. They used the facilities own equipment, which unsurprisingly worked in said facility). The writers realized this, and made sure R2 did what he did and we see them acquire the comms. You probably didn't register this at the time because the whole point of such details to make thinks smooth and seamless, not so haltingly improbable that you have to stop and ask why.

That's really what you are missing. You think its stupid to have to have these things explained, but what these things are doing is making explainations unnecessary.
What a colossal steaming pile. There's noe vidence whatsoever that R2D2 accessing the Imperial network to find the tractor beam has any relation whatsoever to the fact that their using communicators wasn't 'discovered'. It's not stated or implied. it's just some stupid shit you made up.
Your right. Its actually worse than that for you. Maz is in the Mid Rim, but Crait is not just in the Outer Rim, its in the a remote region of the outer rim. In other words, that comm signal went even farther than I thought.

They had the ability to communicate far beyond the Outer Rim and did so on screen. Discontinuity proven.
Who says Maz is in the mid-rim?
It doesn't matter, as they already proved they can communicate inside the outer rim and beyond. Its not my fault the Rebels are idiots and not only don't know they can communicate, but DID communicate.
Becaus the Outer Rim doesn't denote a circular area at the outer edge of a galaxy, but a distinct region of nearby space?
Is there something about "come to XXXXXX" that requires some sort of special communication? They don't even have to encrypt it, they are already discovered.
Once more, it's about sufficient power. It's in the movie.
Or are we supposed to believe that there is nobody who can relay a message or is even some of the people they actually want to communicate with inside this giant swath of the galaxy that includes at least a radius extending from the remote outer rim to some point inside the mid rim? I can't actual assume you know anything about SW geography, this means a good chunk of the outer rim is is inside direct communications range of the Raddus. And that's assuming Maz's inner rim location is the extent of their range, and that she is on the closer side of the inner rim.

Also, since its been established that the Rebels can hyper in and out of the battlefield at will with no problem, and galactic travel times being what they are, this is all a red herring. At any time they could send someone wherever they want. To a place with all the power required (as if that matters, but given this abandoned thirty year old base could do it any Galactic Union telegram service will suffice), or directly to whomever they were trying to contact in the first place (some of them at least).

And since you seem intent to believe that Crait's armored shell must be compromised after 30 years, or Pink must be wrong because she has never been there, you must think she is really stupid to think there is a working shield generator and "powerful" communications system on ready standby for use.

This is such a stupid non-problem for so many reasons it boggles the mind that this is a plot point. I am not surprised you are hung up on though.
So let me get this straight - a four paragraph pointless rant where you just whine with incredulity at the relevant plot point - without ever explaining just what part of the 'setting' it has broken - but I'm hung up on it? Yeah, ok.

- They didn't have enough power to get a message out to their allies without Crait. Therefore, their allies aren't in range.
- They could get a message out to Maz (wherever she is). Therefore, she is in range.

It's not that difficult to understand.
Show, don't tell. They showed the comms working just fine. I did here the dialogue of them talking to someone vast inter galactic distances away from them just fine too, so your dialogue defense betrays you. We see them do exactly what we are told they can't do. From that very ship, before we factor in they can go almost wherever they want, whenever they want, to do the same.
As above. Clearly, your assumptions of what they can do - which are nowhere in the movie - are actually wrong.
Material aid? Is that what Leia was calling them for, material aid? Yeah...

But lets have a conversation about this with General Hux

This is your world dipshit.
She was calling for help. That doesn't mean they were part of the Resistance before, or engaged in hostilities with the First Order before this.

Not difficult, these concepts. Maybe if you stopped needlessly shitting up really straightforward ideas?
Where is the part about where you spend 20% of your movie in service to characters with no meaningful contribution to the movie? Hey, you know who had stories as described in that article and were relevant to the plot. All the rest of them.
Finn's story is a meaningful contribution to the movie, as already explained.
Exactly, regardless to the entries of previous artists. Such a great way to handle a vast setting crafted by thousands of craftsmen and artists, doing whatever you want regardless of the legacy of the IP you bought precisely because of that previous work.

That's a great value bulding strategy if I ever saw one. I believe its called scorched earth. How did TLJ do int he box office compared to TFA again?
Ah yes, the "previous artists" who apparently paid so much attention to Atomic Rockets when writing the previous movies, right? Or was it when George Lucas was writing the special edition of the movie which connected R2D2 plugging into the Imperial network with making sure that C-3P0 and Luke weren't picked up talking on communicators?
Practical:

Q. Vympel has to build a hardened bunker that must be able to resist ground and air assault of a highly futuristic and destructive character. Do you:

a - Build your bunker in a geographically stable area of dense, uniform, sold bedrock with zero unnecessary exposure to foundations?

b - Build your bunker in a fissue ridden substrate with access large enough for dozen meter wide freighters to safely transverse, including passages that penetrate directly into your facility that masses of animals and people can trasnferse?

Extra Credit: If you were to pick b, would you waste your time creating armored doors that can resit all but DEATH STAR!!!! technology when there are obvious surface accesses any enemy can just waltz through with a simple earth mover?

The worst part about this whole thing was what did those few seconds of the MF and some TIEs flying through some crysal encrusted fissues actually get us? It was throwaway shit emblematic of the worst of the Prequels. And what is the problem with the base just having a secret armored back door a la the Endor shield generator complex so Pink, C3PO and R2 don't have to be boobs?
Yes let us all get upset that the Rebellion, when building this base and then abandoning it, didn't conduct an extensive survey of the cave to make sure there wasn't a way that troops could conceivably get in of which they were unaware - you know, if the Empire actually was minded to do so for some reason, as opposed to simply attacking it from the front.

Also, it has fissure ridden substrate somewhere in the random vicinity of the base, and this matters for some reason that is unexplained.

What does the few seconds of the MF and TIES flying through the fissures get us? Oh, I dunno, the Falcon leading the TIEs astray in a manner that's interesting? No big deal.
Oh, you think things have to be bombarded from orbit or not at all. Interesting...

I suggest you rewatch some of the other SW movies and re-access.
No don't be shy - you tell me which of the 'other SW movies' would lead us to believe that if the Empire or the First Order was to bombard the base from under the shield, this would somehow destroy the base.
The extensive survey, you know where the droids assessed the base that was in good enough shape to have a functional shield, echoed her assessment. But damn, even that couldn't not be contradicted just minutes later. Is this a nitpick. Yep. But that's why its so baffling that it exists at all, its so excruciatingly unnecessary.

I mean, were you sitting in your seat going "Oooooooh man, I was really sweating bullets! I was so shocked they flipped the switch on me! I mean, both Pink AND the droids were wrong. Holy fucking suspense!"

Nah, you didn't give a shit because you knew it was the case. You knew, the second that door was breached, that like clockwork a plot honey hole would open up right where it was needed, what the movie already established be damned.
You mean it opened up because there wasn't actually an exit at all, but one that Rey created with the Force? Yes, that was quite narratively sastisfying. But sure, it was unnecessary, it's much better to just have a back door for some reason. And hey, Rey can then do nothing. Even better.
Oh, I don't know, something to do with space age supper durable future materials going molton around me makes me think the air might be a bit warmer than comfortable. That staring directing into a laser beam, windshield or no, isn't good for your eyes. Especially a laser one meter wide already melting metal before it even fires.

But then there is that part where that windshield, even if its made of of whatever magic death star laser proof material you think it is, doesn't cover their fucking heads.
https://naboonews.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/06.jpg

Uh-huh.
Except he didn't abandon the Raddus because he didn't care about the Rebellion (and we know him staying there would have accomplished nothing, just like Poe accomplished nothing), but because he wanted to help Rey (which might have accomplished nothing). Then he directly contradicts the leadership of said Rebellion, later getting most of them killed as you kindly reminded me.
More idiocy that directly contradicts the movie. Finn expressly says that the fleet is doomed. He only cares about saving Rey. He has no interest in the Resistance.
Then when he was actually going to sacrifice his life for the Rebellion, selflessly attempting to save all of them, not just his friends, he is physically stopped from doing so. At which point what he learns is to save who/what you love rather than destroy that which threatens everyone. Its better to live for the few, than die for the many. This is your movie dude...
Fanatically throwing his life away in a doomed attempt ! = selfessly saving them all.
Again, this thing was out of the top three by week three.
I'm sure Disney is very upset at the performance of the movie which is No.6 in all time domestic box office take alone and currently sits on $1.2B gross after less than a month of release. If only they had explained hyperspace ramming!

Why don't you tick all the boxes on this aggressive parade of sad case fanboy delusion? Disney paid off all the film critics to give it good reviews too, right?
I can only assume you are sensing the weakness of your argument, your flailing is getting entertaining.

I am saying if you know or expect you are going to die, and you have zero way to seriously damage your enemy conventionally in a desperate situation, that's exceptional sacrifice becomes appealing because there is no down side. People don't charge machine gun nets because everything is going to plan and we are going to win anyway, they do it when desperate or they are out of choices.

If you are at Endor, you just found out the DS shield is up, you just got caught in a pincer attach between the DS and a fleet many more times powerful than yours, and you happened to hear that exchange between Ackbar and Lando, you are in that type of situation.

Ackbar outright says this, but he closes with the SDs anyway. That's a suicidal move by his own admission. Maybe not instantly so, but he expected eventual death.

So if that's the case, if you have reconciled yourself to a fight to the death, are you going to pick the manor of your death to cause the maximum damage on your way out or something less?

Now Endor has a special circumstance in that the Rebel fleet was always expendable. Their sole job was to keep any Imperial pretense away from the strike craft making the actual run on the DS via setting up a perimeter. I think we can all agree that while not desirable, if they lost all their cap ships bet still succeeded in destroying the DS that's still a win. Especially since this was the only chance. This is why they made their suicidal charge vise retreating. But it also means that they needed to exist as long as possible to cover the DS attack, so maximum damage to the Imperial fleet is not the goal, delaying it is. It does no good for the cap ship to destroy 99% of the Imperial fleet instantly if that 1% is left unopposed to spoil the attack.

That said, as the TLJ just showed us the damage effectiveness between conventional warship to conventional warship tonnage is FAR more effective using hyperspace attacks vice turbo laser exchanges. So while it might not make sense to sacrifice MC80s for ISDs if you are trying to remain in being as long as possible, it is an unbelievable deal to trade on MC80 for an Executor many hundreds of times as large and maybe equally as advantaged in combat power.

But they didn't. These Rebels who were ready to die. Expecting to die. Resigned to dying. They decided to not use this tool at their disposal. And this is even though the mass disparity between and MC80 and the Executor is FAR more favorable than the Raddus and the Supremacy. Why.

Why. Why. Why. Were they cowards? Were they stupid? Were they just not dedicated to their cause? And we aren't even into purposely designed hyperspace weapons. This is just adhoc shit.
What I love about your endless boring rants is how easily they can be eviscerated with like a line of dialog from the actual movies you're so bad at watching.

Admiral Ackbar: "We saw it. All craft prepare to retreat".

Clearly, when everyone saw they were trapped, they leaped straight to thoughts of complete suicide.
If by briefly you mean several minutes, you are correct. Its actually worse than you think. Rabbus survived that time under the COMBINED power of the Supremacy's fire and effective starfighter attack.

The fact is whenever the Rebels wanted to, they could have done exactly what they did. You have no good reason to provide why they didn't, instead slowly letting their fleet be whittled down before doing it anyway.

Also, since again we see they can use transports to hyper in and hyper out unmolested at any time, instead of wasting their time at that casino Finn and Rose could just have slowly ferried the entire crews of all of the vessels back and forth to safety. To be honest, none of the Rebel lives were actually in danger during that entire chase, the only thing that had to be in jeopardy was their hardware. Pride fucking with them I guess, but thats a hell of a stupid way to die.
Once more: "hurrrr, why is the movie showing me a scene of Hux ignoring the Raddus? Guess it doesn't matter!"
Valuable you can call it. Lucrative is probably more accurate, and strictly in the sense that I am a mark for merchandising. You call that privilege, I often think of it as being a sucker.

What I am not, however, is an unquestioning consumer who has zero ability to parse quality from gilded turds. I bet you are far more lucrative a fan than me since you like this latest stuff.
No, I called it toxic entitlement.
Says...nobody? Do you have the annexes to the Emperors OPORD, because I didn't hear Piett say anything other than "we need only keep them from escaping." Which they did, even if it was made easier by the Rebels not trying to escape.

There is zero evidence that the Imperials ever went all in, because the most decorated fleet officer of the Rebel Alliance told us what that would look like. And to be perfectly honest there is very little to show the Rebels were doing much damage to the Imperials either. Sure, I won't claim NO damage, we see an ISD explode based on nothing related to the Executor. But the Executor itself is written to be a fluke, an Imperial Hood to the Alliand Bismark. That was obviously an unexpected development by both sides.
LOL. Yeah ok, the Imperial fleet was attacked by the Rebel fleet and they sat there refusing to fire back. That's clearly what happened. They let Rebel cruisers fly right up to them and half-heartedly fired back at them. The scenes of say the medical frigate and the Star Destroyer at broadside exchanging fire was a result of random Imperial gunnery crews disobeying orders not to attack.

This is clearly the correct interpretation of what happened at Endor.
So they take out the Executor because of a fluke. An unfortunate occurrence but also unpredictable. Its irrelevant. Destroying the Executor didn't win the day for the Rebels. In fact, its didn't matter to the Emperor whether ALL of the star destroyers were destroyed, as long as they succeeded in keeping the Rebels there to be destroyed by the DS. And should that have been what transpired it would still be a decisive win for the Empire. They have Star Destroyers to spare, the Rebels would be nonexistent. Of course we know the Emperor would have died anyway, but that wouldn't have mattered to anyone on the Rebel fleet. Its not like the was just going to surrender to Luke if it wasn't exposed due to the Endor mission.

The only event that allowed the Rebels to win in space had nothing to do with anything the Imperials or the Rebels did over Endor, the only thing that mattered was what happened on Endor. Up until that point the Rebel fleet was completely without agency from the second they arrived, it was either be destroyed by the DS or be destroyed by the fleet if they attempted to escape.

I suspect the Emperor knew they would fight to the death, which is why he felt comfortable telling his fleet to just accept the damage and instead showcase his new toy. Again, nothing outside the surface of Endor changed that state of affairs.
As above. Your argument is completely stupid and so is your account of the Battle of Endor. The Rebel fleet brought the Imperial fleet to battle and won. Your version of the battle makes the Imperials much, much dumber than the First Order would ever be in your wildest dreams, because you propose that they willingly sat there while getting pounded by the Rebels and refused to fire back, even when it was apparent that the Death Star 2 could no longer fire.
Oh yeah? Did the Iron Brigade take a poll? Did the 101st hold a vote to stay put during the Bulge? Stop talking nonsense, history is replete with units put into such situations en mass and being considered heroic to the man. The distinction between hero and forgotten is generally success or luck.
I must've missed how the Iron Brigade and 101st committed suicide to a man. Did they all have bomb belts? Or are you just too fucking stupid to tell the difference between wilful sucidie and general heroic feats on the battlefield?
So there not being hyperspace weapons doesn't match any other movie?
It's not inconsistent. Why should I assume it would never work in any circumstances? Because you refuse to employ some actual imagination?
If there is no problem with shields being inconsistent, why did RotJ go to such lengths to explain them away? We went over this already. Would the demise of the Executor be better to you if there was no exploding tower/bridge shield failure confirmation/panicked call for firepower? Its all fluff to you apparently.
There's nothing inconsistent about the shields at all. Shields are clearly permeable to fighter attacks - heck, this is what made the attack on the Death Star possible in the first place (the Rebel fighters passing through the Death Star's outer shields / magnetic fields), and it explains the utility of fighters.
Because you want a poorer universe. You aren't the thinking type, just like TLJ's writers, so lets go through this.

You might hate physics, but that's irrelevant because physics loves you and your world and the SWs world with a loving iron embrace. Physics tells us you can't get to c. You can approach it with ever greater levels of effort, but not reach it. This is true in SW, which is why they have hyperspace. In SWs when you get close to "light speed" the hyper-drive transitions you to hyperspace where the rules are different. So the real question here is how is the damage mode applied here.

If the Raddus hit the Supremacy while in realspace before transitioning to hyperspace, its by definition doing so at something less than c. The problem here is that this means relativistic weapons become effective in SWs. These weapons are down right primitive given the tech levels in SW, its the equivalent of spear men beating tanks in civilization as an intentional game mechanic.

Normally we excuse things like this by invoking fantastic defenses, like shields. We don't actually know how shields work, what they do to incoming fire, how they are maintained etc. We do know how they are used, they essentially can block anything except fantastic weapons, things like turbolasers which we also don't understand but know how they are used. If Supremacy had its shields up, and Raddus did its damage in real space, that means cheap R-bombs can kill anything. On the cheap. Even worse, given the size disparity between the two, the volume of the Raddus to the volume of the Supremacy means you don't even need a large R-bomb. Raddus was to Supremacy what a .22 is to a human. In other words an X-wing can be one shotted with a .50 cal slug or there abouts. And WORSE, the level of damage was so extreme its probable you can use a value significantly below c and get a lesser but effectively as devastating effect. And worst of all most is that these will be CHEAP, real space damage means you don't need a hyperdrive on every munition, just a launcher of some sort.

If the weapon delivers its damage from hyerspace that fundamentally changes everything we know about how hyperspace works. We have seen things exit hyperspace onto things (it was not as devastating as we see in TLJ), and we know matter of a certain mass will pull things out of hyperspace, but I don't think things interact until they are either both in or both out of hyperspace. Its also worth a thought about whether you are actually traveling faster in hyperspace, or the distances are just shorter. If its the first and you are interacting with real world objects you are talking energies delivered based on moving many times faster than c. I don't even know how to calculate that, it poor mans planet popper stuff surely.

In any case this means hyperspace munitions are expensive, but they are no undetectable and have infinite range. Galaxy Gun shit, only the authors of that trash didn't understand warheads don't matter at that point.

The damage we see is also interesting. If its just a realspace mass on mass collision I would expect the damage to radiate out from the point of impact, maybe with a crack along a seam or other structural. I would actual expect no visible ship left at all, but if the energies are less than catastrophic its definitely going to be a point impact, an no slice.

If the damage is inflicted in hyperspace who knows. From what I am seeing perhaps if you transition through the target you drag the matter along your route into hyperspace with you, and the collision reaction takes place inside hyperspace, explaining the lack of explosion destroying the rest of the ship. That could be useful if you want to penetrate a target vice just blow up on the matter you first make contact with, like maybe a facility deep in a planet (assuming you can address the gravity well issue), but this yields significantly less damage than expected. Though as I type this the true uniqueness of the damage seen might be because it had to crash the shield first, which has some unknown effect on follow on kinetic impact characteristics.

This is what that scene means Vympel.
Why would anyone ever assume that relativistic weapons are not useful in SW? Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that you think that turbolasers could be more devastating than a 3.5km long cruiser impacting an object at (say) 0.9999c? You wax lyrical about physics and then talk total nonsense like calling turbolasers 'fantastic' weapons whose firepower we supposedly can't even conceive*, and shields which are somehow not able to provide guaranteed protection to warships from something as (relatively) mundane as an asteroid. While you're going on about physics, do you also think that shields negate conservation of momentum?
Just like how good at math you are has no bearing on how well you teach it. We can save a lot of money having our history teachers take over calculus.
Hey, remember how when you study maths you're at risk of falling to the Dark Side of Logarithims and becoming a pychopath?

Fuckn idiot.
This is the opposite of what I said. New things just have to be integrated into the setting as it exists. That's all. The problem is not that the exist at all, its that they are dumped in without a thought to the logical consequences.
Ah yes, the "logical consequences" which you still haven't explained.
Using the force is a skill. Like anything else it is learned and practiced and exercised. You said Yoda did something, and now Luke can do this. We saw Yoda do nothing that should lead to this specific result. There is nothing about Luke and Yoda's interaction that is not applicable to any other Jedi we have seen.
Image
Yeah, there is zero reason this can't be used offensively. None at all.
Who cares whether it could or couldn't? That's not the point.

See, for someone who understands the source material, Luke using an astral force projection from across the galaxy to delay Kylo Ren without striking a single solitary blow is the essence of what Jedi are supposed to be all about - which is the point of that quote from TESB. For someone who's too busy whining about all the ways the movie doesn't live up to their made up beliefs about how technology works in Star Wars, they just treat the Force as another fucking technology and whine that they haven't seen it before.

It's really sad. No one hates Star Wars quite like a Star Wars fan, eh?
I am not saying they didn't happen that way, just that your shitty movie did so without providing a plausible reason how anyone could or would know these things. The only way anyone can know what happened when Kyko and Luke met is because the FO sources told people. They were the only ones there.
And the Rey, and Leia, and the Resistance troops who saw Luke walk out to face the First Order.
Fuck what an intentionally boring next ten minutes if we are just supposed to sit around and watch Kylo learn what we already know.
So sorry that you were bored. Next time they should add some pretty pew pews and overly long technical explanations of everything going on to keep you interested.
Yes, there should be clues for the attentive viewer because the way this trick works is you see the reveal and you think back and go "Fuck, that's right, it all makes sense now! Mind fuck!" The Usual Suspects 101. You thinking this was an intentional spoil by the writers is hilarious. They did spoil it through incompetence as discussed, but no writer gives away the twist intentionally.
Please stop pretending you know what writers do.
This is precious. You think the Force isn't indistinguishable from magic...
It's distinguishable from how you perceive the Force, yes:

Image
He did something a hologram, basic SW tech could accomplish (HAS accomplished in many SciFi plots). So amazing.
You're just descending into outright self-parody at this point.
Thanks for substantiating the my claim. I can only assume you talked yourself into circles in all this ranting. The point I made was Luke CAN interact with real matter, which means he could have done all sorts of far more useful things through his astral projection.

Being able to be anywhere, and interact with anything physically, now THAT is impressive and useful.
Who's talking who in circles? I just said there's no reason to believe he can interact with real matter. That's simply something you made up.
Nope, they all leave in the middle of the sequence. Thats why they don't all die when Kylo raids the place immediately after he is duped.
The middle of the sequence. You mean - after the beginning. Where they clearly saw Luke standing out there alone, right? Which is what the kids were re-enacting?
Its funny you mention that. Do you know who else had no knowledge about a particular species subterranean characteristics? I will give you a hint, their names end with "bacca" and "Sue".
Ah yes, only someone with supernatural powers could see animals running out of a hole in the ground and not assume that they came from a hole in the ground.
I didn't say the travel took weeks, I said she could have taken weeks in between. She could have sat and Finns hospital bed for a few days. Rolled in the sheets with Poe. Taken a vacation. Helped the Rebels with any of her plethora of unearned and unsubstantiated Mary Sue powers. Hey I have an idea, practice with her fucking light saber so her proficiency on the island later makes some sense over what we see at the end or TFA, which you say was like yesterday.

It doesn't matter, there is nothing in TFA or TLJ that says the events we see in TLJ are linear.
Yes, I'm sure that the quest driving TFA's plot was put on the back burner for weeks for absolutely no reason and with no reason to believe it ever occurred. Moron.
Oh, you think there are only thousands and thousands of worlds in the galaxy period, vice thousands and thousands of major worlds and MILLIONS of other worlds?
I'm sorry, who said "the major systems" are "thousands and thousands" of worlds?

And I repeat my answer. If you know what information theory is, you would know why what you imagine the answer is to your question is stupid. Remember, you are the one why decided the Force wasn't magic.
We've already examined that you're a clown who came away from the movie thinking the Force is some sort of strict series of skills. Your assumption is stupid. There's no reason to believe Snoke could locate Rey on a specific planet simply because he can connect Ben and her minds.
Nope. But lets assume you are right. This invalidates the entire arc of Poe, because the lesson Leia was teaching was that winning with no reckoning with the consequences is Pyrrhic. Leaders can understand that winning isn't everything. The battle isn't the war.

If Poe wasn't going to win on Hoth2, the lesson couldn't be learned. All he did was quite over fear of loss, not sober assessment that the likely win wasn't worth that loss. That ain't leadership.
It's not 'leadership' to throw away the lives of your men in a pointless endeavor that won't lead to ultimate victory? News to me.
Do I need to draw a picture for you why you can't catch up to someone if you are moving perpendicular to them?
Is that what I was talking about?
Yep, that nitpick that all space combat ever seen over eight movies now makes no sense. So minor. So inconsequential. All the star wars in Star Wars has been trivialized and its of no matter, Rose got to free space giraffes!!!!

You are waxing poetic about story and plot when its irrelevant, both of them fail miserably.
"Muh space combat".

Again - laughable.
So in a movie called "Star WARS," The fact that they utterly destroyed their opponents war machine, destroy maybe hundreds to thousands of millions more tonnage than the lose, killing millions of the enemy, pretty much every FO mook that appears on screen, and thwart the primary objective of said enemy is entirely counterbalanced because some feels?
Given none of those material losses were enough to save the Resistance (as the Resistance would've been snuffed out regardless if not for Luke's intervention) - congratulations on once more missing the point.
And Luke failed? Well technically he did, but not in THIS movie. Luke redeemed himself in this movie. So he died, well, at the beginning of the movie he was just waiting to die anyway without contributing to anything, so no change there. When he died was it with a smile on his face or a frown? Triumph or defeat?

Leia escaped from the Rebel base, along with every protagonist (which was if you remember the primary goal of this super locally focused plot, as literally spelled out) and since the help not coming had nothing to do with the events of this movie that failure happened before too whenever she fucked up wining their support.

Rey contributes to Luke's redemption, to the death of the senior enemy (so there is a new boss, there always is, its still a victory), and gains a new confidence in herself, escaping the past. You might of noticed a difference in her condition and attitude versus that of Luke at the end of ESB. It has something do do with having all her limbs, with none of her friends alive and not made into a throne room art display.

Finn, though he doesn't grow one fucking bit, is alive and that's far more than he deserves. He saves his love interest. He isn't in prison for gross negligence in the death of most of his crew. His actor still has a job for unknown reasons.

Poe isn't executed for active mutiny like he should be, contributing directly to the death of most of his supposed comrades for no reason.

The Rebellion is not dead, for unfathomable reasons directly contrary to what we observe. Like I said, nothing happened in this movie that would have changed the minds of anyone supporting the Rebellion, them having no actual support was the reality at the start. If anything they have MORE support now that the FO released the favorable account of Luke's actions that only they no.

Some bad shit happened, but this is a carnival ride compared the the forlorn folk staring at the galactic wheel from the medical frigate.
So you're told the them of the movie is "learning from failure" and then you go on a tear about "Luke didn't fail in this movie!" and similar irrelevancies.

No shit, really?

There's something really sad about the kind of spittle-flecked fanboy carictature you embody. So desperate to take issue with each and every thing in the movie from beginning to end that you'll say literally anything, no matter how stupid or poorly attested.
CaoCao wrote:
2018-01-08 05:44pm
You seem to not get it:
- The FO found them.
- They had no way of knowing how or if it could happen again
The FO already knew where they were from TFA. They assumed it wouldn't happen again because they don't think they can be tracked once they go to hyperspace.
- The dreadnought was a threat to both the fleet and any base where they could settle.
- They had the chance of doing it right there.
While all their assets were at risk. This is not prudent and it's not unreasonable that a commander would say "you know what, I'm not prepared to risk this going pear shaped given what's at stake, we will attack at another time and place of our choosing, rather than the enemies."
It's too difficult to get it, isn't it? They had a shuttle that could go anywhere and they needed support, fuel, or a way to escape. They could have gone anywhere and contact whomever. They don't need a phone boot.

BTW, Crait is not some super special place with a special tansmitter not seen anywhere in the galaxy. In fact, it was a mine where they unloaded a few crates before Scar Squadron found them and had to run. They never settled there (in canon).

And your idea that they would be unnoticed in the only planet nearby is ridiculous, they would be wary of anyone using a scape pod to survive and fight another day.
I'm referring to a "phone booth" specifically in response to this assertion that they can go anywhere and make the same call they want to make from Crait. Why should we assume that military grade communication systems that apparently require a lot of power to operate would just be easily accesible anywhere?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-01-08 11:30pm

jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-07 03:23am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-06 03:43pm
Hmm, I wonder how I fit into that analysis? Being a SF fan, and a Star Wars fan, but not one of the die hard "The Prequels raped my childhood" crowd, and being generally prepared to try to accept a film on its own merits, rather than my preconceptions of what it "should" be.
I was perhaps sloppy in my phrasing.
There's extremes among the fans, those with raped childhoods and those who say Lucas and now Disney can do no wrong. The more reasonable middle is where you can actually have a debate, pro and con. I would place myself here along with you.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Nephtys » 2018-01-09 02:32am



The sheer mental laziness of going 'This (fictional technology or spiritual power with vaguely defined constraints) is a giant plot hole unless they explain it. It's a plot hole that instead, they didn't do (some other fictional technology or spiritual power with poorly defined constraints)

Virtually all of these nitpicks could be applied to the OT, particularly TESB and ROTJ, in some form or another.

"Why isn't Qui-Gon and 50 other Jedi ghosts coming to help Luke?" That's a force power we've seen before!
"Why even have starfighters? They can't seem to harm cruisers. We should use hyperdrive to beam the fleet to point blank range instead of flying in and taking hits."
"Shouldn't Luke block the force lightning? It's a Jedi defensive perk talent that Mace Windu used 30 years ago."
"How come Luke could use the force to guide a precision proton torpedo without a computer? He had no training except an hour with a sleepy Obi-wan and the blast shield helmet."

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-01-09 05:48am

Nephtys wrote:
2018-01-09 02:32am


The sheer mental laziness of going 'This (fictional technology or spiritual power with vaguely defined constraints) is a giant plot hole unless they explain it. It's a plot hole that instead, they didn't do (some other fictional technology or spiritual power with poorly defined constraints)

Virtually all of these nitpicks could be applied to the OT, particularly TESB and ROTJ, in some form or another.

"Why isn't Qui-Gon and 50 other Jedi ghosts coming to help Luke?" That's a force power we've seen before!
"Why even have starfighters? They can't seem to harm cruisers. We should use hyperdrive to beam the fleet to point blank range instead of flying in and taking hits."
"Shouldn't Luke block the force lightning? It's a Jedi defensive perk talent that Mace Windu used 30 years ago."
"How come Luke could use the force to guide a precision proton torpedo without a computer? He had no training except an hour with a sleepy Obi-wan and the blast shield helmet."
Yeah, pretty much. The thing about it though isn't mental lazyness, its just pure contempt. If you set out to hate a movie for whatever reason, you'll extend pretty much no good faith whatsoever to the plot - everything is wrong, everything is stupid, everything doesn't make any sense.

Of course, some of the reasons some may dislike the movie are ... pretty obviously more ugly than others. For example:

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status ... 4999778304

That twitter thread. Watch how quickly it goes to "but Star Wars ship don't need fuel!" (actually of course they do, as Pablo Hidalog patiently explains) to "FEMINAZI SJWS RUINED MUH STAR WARS".
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CaoCao » 2018-01-09 09:28am

Oh, Disney fanboys will not accept it's a flawed movie with badly fabricated plots. It's the worst SW movie (including TPM which, at least, managed to set all the worldbuilding necesary for the next two).

About the Holdo vs Poe talk, here is a good opinion on how things work and why it was badly set:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SVxqZ5c0iI

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-09 09:46am

Vympel wrote:
2018-01-09 05:48am
Nephtys wrote:
2018-01-09 02:32am


The sheer mental laziness of going 'This (fictional technology or spiritual power with vaguely defined constraints) is a giant plot hole unless they explain it. It's a plot hole that instead, they didn't do (some other fictional technology or spiritual power with poorly defined constraints)

Virtually all of these nitpicks could be applied to the OT, particularly TESB and ROTJ, in some form or another.

"Why isn't Qui-Gon and 50 other Jedi ghosts coming to help Luke?" That's a force power we've seen before!
"Why even have starfighters? They can't seem to harm cruisers. We should use hyperdrive to beam the fleet to point blank range instead of flying in and taking hits."
"Shouldn't Luke block the force lightning? It's a Jedi defensive perk talent that Mace Windu used 30 years ago."
"How come Luke could use the force to guide a precision proton torpedo without a computer? He had no training except an hour with a sleepy Obi-wan and the blast shield helmet."
Yeah, pretty much. The thing about it though isn't mental lazyness, its just pure contempt. If you set out to hate a movie for whatever reason, you'll extend pretty much no good faith whatsoever to the plot - everything is wrong, everything is stupid, everything doesn't make any sense.

Of course, some of the reasons some may dislike the movie are ... pretty obviously more ugly than others. For example:

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status ... 4999778304

That twitter thread. Watch how quickly it goes to "but Star Wars ship don't need fuel!" (actually of course they do, as Pablo Hidalog patiently explains) to "FEMINAZI SJWS RUINED MUH STAR WARS".
Get off your high horse, Vympel. There are perfectly legitimate reasons why people find some scenes jarring. Some of us simply don't like the use of technology as a Deus Ex Machina.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Knife » 2018-01-09 10:23am

Indeed. We didn't miss something. We saw it, understood what they tried to do, and think they did it poorly. That's it.

Any argument in universe is just would-haves, should-haves. At the end of the day, every weird and dumb thing in the story is only there because they put it there for a reason. You may not find some of this dragging you out of SOD, but I sure did and a lot of other people did to. Some of the in-universe fixes for some of this would have been trivial. Some of the just plain story telling flaws also could have been fixed easily. But they didn't, and here we are.

You liked it, I didn't. I can point out all the stupid shit and you can point out reasons why it's not stupid. You can point out all the good stuff and I can give reasons why it's not good. But stop pretending you've gleaned some brilliance us plebs are too dumb to get. I get it, and it sucked.
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But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Nephtys » 2018-01-09 02:57pm

That's the difference between meaningful discussion, and just being a really cringe-worthy-fancreature.

An interesting discussion could be: What is Leia's purpose as a character in the movie? So much of her plot is more or less being tired and looking to just retire to someone else. That may or may not be a good thematic
Or: "Does the fact that Rose knocks Finn's sled away to stop a sacrifice underscore the fact that Admiral Wholefoods saved everyone with a sacrifice?"
Or: "Was Canto Bight a waste of time?"

Those are entirely valid discussions that I think add to a community.
Asking 'Why do bombs fall out of the ship' is stupid and inane in a setting where interstellar starfighters pull immelmans to laser machine gun space BF-109s, particularly when so much of what disbelief needs to be suspended has been long established.

I find it so fascinating that this movie is divisive: I think it had to be, because TFA took so few risks. Without TLJ basically doing something very different, the franchise is doomed to repeat mistakes of that marvel movies era from a few years ago, where each successive superhero sequel was indistinguishable and formulaic.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-09 03:08pm

That's kind of bullshit. People are allowed to care about whatever they want to care about when it comes to movies. Plot issues or stupid bombers or hilarious underfuelled Rebel ships or whatever.

It's kind of a petpeeve when people here try to say they are being reasonable and everyone is just being too much of a nerd.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-09 03:43pm

Nephtys wrote:
2018-01-09 02:57pm
That's the difference between meaningful discussion, and just being a really cringe-worthy-fancreature.

An interesting discussion could be: What is Leia's purpose as a character in the movie? So much of her plot is more or less being tired and looking to just retire to someone else. That may or may not be a good thematic
Or: "Does the fact that Rose knocks Finn's sled away to stop a sacrifice underscore the fact that Admiral Wholefoods saved everyone with a sacrifice?"
Or: "Was Canto Bight a waste of time?"

Those are entirely valid discussions that I think add to a community.
Asking 'Why do bombs fall out of the ship' is stupid and inane in a setting where interstellar starfighters pull immelmans to laser machine gun space BF-109s, particularly when so much of what disbelief needs to be suspended has been long established.

I find it so fascinating that this movie is divisive: I think it had to be, because TFA took so few risks. Without TLJ basically doing something very different, the franchise is doomed to repeat mistakes of that marvel movies era from a few years ago, where each successive superhero sequel was indistinguishable and formulaic.
No, I think world-building concerns are valid in a franchise built upon technology. Technology and physics in Star Wars does not need to conform to real-world physics, but it needs to adhere to its own internal logic as a secondary world.

Why do you need bombs to fall vertically when we saw scenes of guided torpedos and missiles? The reason why X-Wings don't use missiles or torpedos all the time can be easily understood in a world where such munitions are expensive. Why do you need to use missiles to take out a TIE-fighter when blasters are pretty adequate to kill someone at gunpoint?

Without some amount of consistent internal logic, Star Wars as a secondary world falls apart for people.

Take this from Tolkien in why consistency is important in a fantasy( but can also apply to science fiction):
Tolkien, On Fairy-Stories, 12 wrote:Children are capable, of course, of literary belief, when the story-maker's art is good enough
to produce it. That state of mind has been called “willing suspension of disbelief.” But this
does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the
story-maker proves a successful “sub-creator.” He makes a Secondary World which your mind
can enter. Inside it, what he relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world. You
therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is
broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again,
looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. If you are obliged, by kindliness
or circumstance, to stay, then disbelief must be suspended (or stifled), otherwise listening
and looking would become intolerable. But this suspension of disbelief is a substitute for the
genuine thing, a subterfuge we use when condescending to games or make-believe, or when
trying (more or less willingly) to find what virtue we can in the work of an art that has for
us failed.
Tolkien, On Fairy-Stories, 16 wrote:To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding
Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a
special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are
attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art: indeed
narrative art, story-making in its primary and most potent mode.
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