Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Post Reply
streetad
Padawan Learner
Posts: 240
Joined: 2011-06-12 01:02pm
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by streetad » 2017-12-17 11:21am

The stuff with Poe is a bit like that time in ASoIaF where Robb Stark doesn't tell any of his subordinates his battle plan, then flips his lid when one of them does something entirely predictable and in character which inadvertently ruins said plan. Except that time the whole purpose was to illustrate his inexperience at managing his people.

Poe appears to be a known Maverick With A Hero Complex Who Doesn't Play By Your Rules; and one who enjoys the respect of a lot of the other members of the Resistance. I mean sure, he is in a military of sorts and should be following the directives of his superior; but if she'd at least hinted there was a plan other than 'sit here and wait to die' he might not have done what he did.

User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 9920
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: Bound in a nutshell

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-12-17 12:48pm

I saw this this afternoon. I enjoyed it, not as much as I enjoyed Rogue One but still good. The technical bits...eh, I can forgive weirdness like that in the name of a compelling story/characters (like how I overlook the weirdness of Space: 1999, Thunderbirds or Doctor Who).

I will point out that the "ships lose fuel and immediately start slowing" is not what's happening. Their engines shut down, so they aren't still accelerating like the cruiser, which mean the pursuing ships can catch up. Because the FO ships and the cruiser are apparently accelerating at the same rate, it looks like the light ships lose power and slow, but that's just a visual thing.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Terralthra » 2017-12-17 01:13pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-17 06:50am
Terralthra wrote:
2017-12-16 11:16pm
The dice were hanging in the Falcon's cockpit since ANH. They were never pointed out as super important, but they were absolutely there all along.

Also, I don't understand the complaints about the gravity bombs "in space". They were over a planet, remember, not in deep space, and under thrust the whole time, not orbiting stably. Yes, if you are over a planet under thrust, and you drop something, it will in fact fall toward the planet. That's how gravity works.
The ship will drop towards the planet at the same rate toward as the things on it.

In orbit there is microgravity not because the space station/capsule is completely away from all planets, but because everything aboard is falling toward the planet at the same rate, this is why we call it freefall.
That's if the bombers were in orbit, which they aren't. They're over a planet, but they aren't orbiting the planet. The physics of objects released from such a craft are essentially identical to those governing bombs falling out of a bomber at any altitude. All that is necessary is that some of the Resistance bombers' thrust be directed downward to counteract the gravity of the planet. On a B-52, that's the lift from the wing. On a Resistance bomber, it could just be some vectored thrust from the main engines.

User avatar
GuppyShark
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2626
Joined: 2005-03-13 06:52am
Location: South Australia

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by GuppyShark » 2017-12-17 01:55pm

I think the idea is that the bombs were propelled by the artificial gravity in the bomb bay. Planetary gravity should be too weak at that altitude to be meaningful.

User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7589
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2017-12-17 02:10pm

Apparently, they worked like magnets.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Terralthra » 2017-12-17 02:11pm

I don't think you've done any sort of math to back that assertion about the strength of planetary gravity. Assuming an Earth-like planet, the gravitational force at 2,000 km above the surface is still ~60% of the force at the surface. Earth's moon orbits at nearly 400,000 km, and is still quite securely bound gravitationally to Earth.

User avatar
GuppyShark
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2626
Joined: 2005-03-13 06:52am
Location: South Australia

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by GuppyShark » 2017-12-17 02:19pm

You're right, I haven't done the math. The use case for a space weapons system that relies on planetary gravity against targets directly beneath it seems rather narrow. If the bombs were being mag/grav forced out of the bomb bay then at least they are projectile weapons.

User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 9920
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: Bound in a nutshell

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-12-17 02:52pm

The thought occurs that maybe they were designed as ground-support craft that Poe repurposed for his hairbrained scheme.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

User avatar
CetaMan
Youngling
Posts: 113
Joined: 2015-08-28 02:44am
Location: Alberta, Canada (Eh?)

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CetaMan » 2017-12-17 04:09pm

As debatably stupid as the bomb deployment is, perhaps they are purely explosives. They forgo any propulsion to have the maximum destructive yield per volume, and rely on the superfortress analog to throw them into the target with magnetic or gravitic stuff.

User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22212
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Mr Bean » 2017-12-17 05:46pm

Saw the movie, you can very much chop it into 5-10 minutes scenes and say "This is horrible" and "This is amazing". Go down farther to 30 second clips and you have a great movie.

Watch the entire thing you get something that you will enjoy but something that is... kinda terrible in places. So I enjoy the parts I enjoyed but man the parts were terrible.

That said Chewbacca once again A-list actor here.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton

eMeM
Padawan Learner
Posts: 236
Joined: 2016-02-21 11:50am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by eMeM » 2017-12-17 07:03pm

Okay, hyperspace is really fast.

Finn's side quest was literally on the other side of the Galaxy from the main plot:
Image

User avatar
KraytKing
Padawan Learner
Posts: 433
Joined: 2016-04-11 06:39pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by KraytKing » 2017-12-17 07:11pm

Mother fuckers. I guarantee no one thought that through.


I guess it does give Star Wars a conclusive advantage in the versus debate, whether they get biggatons, gigatons, or kilotons.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace

The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren

I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain

Brought to you by Carl's Jr.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21073
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-12-17 07:17pm

Eh, fairly casual pan-galactic travel was already well-established in canon. Nothing new here.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

eMeM
Padawan Learner
Posts: 236
Joined: 2016-02-21 11:50am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by eMeM » 2017-12-17 07:19pm

But why would they put that there, nothing in the movie requires the remote location, quite the opposite. Back in the day Geonosis, Tatooine and Naboo ended so close to each other for the plot to make sense, are they putting planets on the map randomly now?

User avatar
KraytKing
Padawan Learner
Posts: 433
Joined: 2016-04-11 06:39pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by KraytKing » 2017-12-17 07:22pm

No, before it took weeks to cross the galaxy. Now it takes hours. This is a major change. First Order reinforcements could have come from anywhere in the galaxy. Starfighters are even more capital ship killers simply because they can operate out of bases fucking anywhere. This makes the "stateless" tactic uncombatable. It has fucked everything up.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace

The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren

I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain

Brought to you by Carl's Jr.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27270
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2017-12-17 07:48pm

KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-17 07:22pm
No, before it took weeks to cross the galaxy. Now it takes hours. This is a major change. First Order reinforcements could have come from anywhere in the galaxy. Starfighters are even more capital ship killers simply because they can operate out of bases fucking anywhere. This makes the "stateless" tactic uncombatable. It has fucked everything up.
You think Anakin/Vader spent 'weeks' on Mustafar ("On the outer rim") after being set on fire while Palpatine flew to rescue him from Coruscant? It's always been hours.

A new canon book "A New Hope: The Princess, the Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy" also reconfirms that the Ep IV trip from Tatooine to Alderaan is 'a few hours.'
Terralthra wrote:
2017-12-17 01:13pm
That's if the bombers were in orbit, which they aren't. They're over a planet, but they aren't orbiting the planet. The physics of objects released from such a craft are essentially identical to those governing bombs falling out of a bomber at any altitude. All that is necessary is that some of the Resistance bombers' thrust be directed downward to counteract the gravity of the planet. On a B-52, that's the lift from the wing. On a Resistance bomber, it could just be some vectored thrust from the main engines.
Image

Except the ships were boosting up from the planet with it behind them, so their momentum would at the very least keep the bombs traveling upward toward the apogee of their ballistic arc (assuming the ships hadn't achieved an orbital velocity) which would result in the bombs... continuing in roughly the same direction of travel as the ship.

The momentum they'd used to thrust away from D'qar doesn't go away. While yes, the bomber will continue to accelerate after the bombs leave it, they will both be traveling upward relative to D'qar still until the bombs hit the apogee of whatever ballistic arc they're on. They need to be spring-loaded, essentially.

D'qar is behind them, not below them.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Rhadamantus
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2016-03-30 02:59pm

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-12-17 08:00pm

eMeM wrote:
2017-12-17 07:03pm
Okay, hyperspace is really fast.

Finn's side quest was literally on the other side of the Galaxy from the main plot:
Image
And clearly the film creators fucked up their math. They state they're 4 parsecs away about 10 minutes before they drop out, which would indicate a hyperspace speed of 2.5 million. That would imply their trip took two weeks (which would make sense of the relativistic issues, but probably not). And that wasn't even that difficult to fucking fix. Just say 400 parsecs instead, none of the audience members would complain, and you'd have remotely correct numbers.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27270
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2017-12-17 08:03pm

Or ships decelerate for their final approach before coming out of hyperspace.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Nephtys
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6227
Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Nephtys » 2017-12-17 08:07pm

If we're still on the subject of mysterious black space orb bombs, this is a universe with repulsor technology. It's entirely possible those bombs were self-propelled by reactionless means. You can literally come up with any answer. They don't seem any less self-propelled than 90 degree turning photon torpedos are.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27270
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2017-12-17 08:13pm

Nephtys wrote:
2017-12-17 08:07pm
If we're still on the subject of mysterious black space orb bombs, this is a universe with repulsor technology. It's entirely possible those bombs were self-propelled by reactionless means. You can literally come up with any answer. They don't seem any less self-propelled than 90 degree turning photon torpedos are.
This is of course, correct.

The aesthetic choices made by the content-creators however, are deliberately evocative of free-fall bombs.

This is why it has come up in the conversations about the film that I have seen on this board, on other boards, on chat channels, and in real-life even with nongeeks. Design matters to build suspension of disbelief, a storytelling tool; I find that making things look incongruous makes them look laughable.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
KraytKing
Padawan Learner
Posts: 433
Joined: 2016-04-11 06:39pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by KraytKing » 2017-12-17 08:15pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-17 07:48pm

You think Anakin/Vader spent 'weeks' on Mustafar ("On the outer rim") after being set on fire while Palpatine flew to rescue him from Coruscant? It's always been hours.

A new canon book "A New Hope: The Princess, the Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy" also reconfirms that the Ep IV trip from Tatooine to Alderaan is 'a few hours.'
No, I think Sidious, who was prescient, came to Mustafar early and waited for Kenobi to leave.

Anyway, Roleplaying Game, canon during time period "always", put the travel time at weeks or days between major worlds.

Too old? ICS gave the ARC-170 five days supplies for a maximum range of five thousand light years. At class 1.5 hyperdrive, mind you. For a space superiority fighter, that's a lot of wasted space if it could only be in hyperspace for an hour or two.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace

The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren

I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain

Brought to you by Carl's Jr.

User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7589
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2017-12-17 08:19pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-17 08:13pm
Nephtys wrote:
2017-12-17 08:07pm
If we're still on the subject of mysterious black space orb bombs, this is a universe with repulsor technology. It's entirely possible those bombs were self-propelled by reactionless means. You can literally come up with any answer. They don't seem any less self-propelled than 90 degree turning photon torpedos are.
This is of course, correct.

The aesthetic choices made by the content-creators however, are deliberately evocative of free-fall bombs.

This is why it has come up in the conversations about the film that I have seen on this board, on other boards, on chat channels, and in real-life even with nongeeks. Design matters to build suspension of disbelief, a storytelling tool; I find that making things look incongruous makes them look laughable.
I think it's important to strike some balance between harking back to WW2 films and actually taking some physics into account. I'm not sure if the new directors got the memo. I feel like the "rule of cool" has been taken to some extreme by the younger director.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27270
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2017-12-17 08:34pm

KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-17 08:15pm
No, I think Sidious, who was prescient, came to Mustafar early and waited for Kenobi to leave.
No.


Vader turns around, and Padme's ship is shown coming in to land on the screen behind him. At that point, Palpatine is in his office. They have just conversed real time, meaning that neither message was pre-recorded.

Swords are drawn on the platform outside, then that fight is intercut with Yoda vs Palpatine, definitively establishing that they are both simultaneous events.
Anyway, Roleplaying Game, canon during time period "always", put the travel time at weeks or days between major worlds.

Too old? ICS gave the ARC-170 five days supplies for a maximum range of five thousand light years. At class 1.5 hyperdrive, mind you. For a space superiority fighter, that's a lot of wasted space if it could only be in hyperspace for an hour or two.
Your sources aren't canon, mine are. That said, should you be interested the ICS gives Palpatine's shuttle a limited range. I asked Curtis about that around the time it was published and he mentioned that he believes Palpatine boarded an offscreen capital ship to go to Mustafar.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Ender » 2017-12-17 08:36pm

KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-17 08:15pm
NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-17 07:48pm

You think Anakin/Vader spent 'weeks' on Mustafar ("On the outer rim") after being set on fire while Palpatine flew to rescue him from Coruscant? It's always been hours.

A new canon book "A New Hope: The Princess, the Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy" also reconfirms that the Ep IV trip from Tatooine to Alderaan is 'a few hours.'
No, I think Sidious, who was prescient, came to Mustafar early and waited for Kenobi to leave.
Anakin's body was still smoking when they arrive back on Coruscant though.

And in ANH the Death Star went from Alderaan to Yavin 4 inside a day, Vader remarks "this will be away long remembered, if has seen the death if Kenobi, now it will see the end of the rebellion"
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est

User avatar
Scottish Ninja
Jedi Knight
Posts: 964
Joined: 2007-02-26 06:39pm
Location: Not Scotland, that's for sure

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Scottish Ninja » 2017-12-17 08:41pm

Can I just remind everyone that we first saw "freefall" space bombs back in Empire?

Image
"If the flight succeeds, you swipe an absurd amount of prestige for a single mission. Heroes of the Zenobian Onion will literally rain upon you." - PeZook
"If the capsule explodes, heroes of the Zenobian Onion will still rain upon us. Literally!" - Shroom
Cosmonaut Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov (deceased, rain), Cosmonaut Petr Petrovich Petrov, Unnamed MASA Engineer, and Unnamed Zenobian Engineerski in Let's play: BARIS
Captain, MFS Robber Baron, PRFYNAFBTFC - "Absolute Corruption Powers Absolutely"

Post Reply