2015 Oscars: Zero minority actors, zero female directors

[Metahive]

Japan and South Korea are horribly racist, non-japanese/non-korean people are basically seen as exotic animals you bring for "flavor" in entertainment pieces. All impprtant characters will at least be half-japanese/korean in some way (and look full-blooded east-asian) so as to not irritate the audience with to much dang' ol' "foreigness".

...and it doesn't excuse Hollywood to do the exact same thing. Not even the least bit of it.

The exact opposite. I mean, it's right there in the title: The Ghost in the Shell. The Major is not her full-body prosthetic, she is the "ghost", the soul, that inhabits it. That her prosthetic looks like Scarlett Johansson and not Rinko Kikuchi is an aesthetic choice at most.

Except of course that this isn't happening in a vacuum. Yellowface and racelifting is still going strong in Hollywood. 47 Ronin suddenly had a very non-japanese Keanu Reeves as the front character. The Last Airbender turned all major characters caucasian and the villains into brown people to boot (and had to gall to ask "korean" extras to come in traditional "kimonos"). That stupid King of Fighters movie turned Kyo Kusanagi into a white guy ("half-japanese" my ass). The fucking Akira movie is poised to racelift all major characters into whiteness. Scarlett Johansen to play Major Kusanagi isn't a choice of ability or aesthetics, it's racial, there's no denying it, not when Hollywood has had a habit of doing so for so long.

Know what? Let's make a Washington biopic where Takeshi Kaneshiro plays Washington, Shaun Toub plays Benjamin Franklin and George III, well, he stays white, but wears a cowboy hat, jeans and talks like a Texan and is played by Billy Zane. You know, for aesthetic reasons.

[AniThyng]

I would honestly be surprised if Asians living in Asia actually cared that deeply about Hollywood racelifting when we go watch Hollywood movies.

Though casting a Chinese actress as a Japanese geisha on the other hand...

[Metahive]

I would honestly be surprised if Asians living in Asia actually cared that deeply about Hollywood racelifting when we go watch Hollywood movies.

Though casting a Chinese actress as a Japanese geisha on the other hand...

They don't care because they consider it primitive neanderthal entertainment and if they like any piece of neanderthal entertainment enough they'll rather make their own, "civilized" version of it instead of complaining because they alread barely care about the outside world. Didn't I just say that Japan and Korea are horribly racist? Well, they're horribly solpsistic and insular as well.

Isn't that alone enough reason to not emulate this fucking bullshit behaviour and attitudes?

[mr friendly guy]

Hollywood does have a tendency to change the setting to an American one doesn't it? Even with say other stories from Western nations.

In The Dark is rising, the British Stanton family was pointlessly changed from being a British family, to.... An American family living in Britain. It would have still sucked even without that change.

The exorcism of Emily Rose, allegedly based on a true story, was changed from a case of an exorcism of a German girl where she died because of you know, ignoring the fact she was mentally ill in a bid to drive out the demon "possessing" her. Well that was changed to an American one as well.

I can accept the race lifting if they took the story idea, and changed it to a different setting, eg Edge of Tomorrow. Where they pretty much kept the same setting and just engaged in race bending, like the Last Airbender or whatever Genghis Khan biopic with a caucasian actor, it really stinks to high heaven.

*************************************************
On another note, I wonder what the response would be if some other country with a large film industry, had the funds to buy an American story and then decided to adapt it but with non Western actors. If a Chinese company purchased the rights of a script and concentrated on just developing special effects, and then hired Asian actors to fill the role, what would the response be I wonder? Most likely cries of China lacking innovation.

[AniThyng]

Adapting a western story to an anime/manga is practically a subgenre of its own as it is. I've never heard anyone complain about those...

[Metahive]

On another note, I wonder what the response would be if some other country with a large film industry, had the funds to buy an American story and then decided to adapt it but with non Western actors. If a Chinese company purchased the rights of a script and concentrated on just developing special effects, and then hired Asian actors to fill the role, what would the response be I wonder? Most likely cries of China lacking innovation.

Remember what happened when they turned Heimdal into a black guy in the Thor movies? And that was a western production.

On the other thand, people in the West don't care much about the local cinematic output of East Asia all that much either.

[mr friendly guy]

On another note, I wonder what the response would be if some other country with a large film industry, had the funds to buy an American story and then decided to adapt it but with non Western actors. If a Chinese company purchased the rights of a script and concentrated on just developing special effects, and then hired Asian actors to fill the role, what would the response be I wonder? Most likely cries of China lacking innovation.

Remember what happened when they turned Heimdal into a black guy in the Thor movies? And that was a western production.

On the other thand, people in the West don't care much about the local cinematic output of East Asia all that much either.

I didn't pay much attention to any nerd rage over Heimdal. I am aware of the rage against casting the Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot with an African American actor though. Also aware of the Black Stormtrooper rubbish (since when are post prequel storm troopers all clones of Jango Fett anyway). This is only because its reported on some of my youtube subscription channels.

[ray245]

Specifically in the context of anime, I think it's because the Japanese social milieu contains a lot of features that are not easily understood by Americans, or at least now intuitively so. Making the cast Americans and removing the explicitly Japanese elements that would not be easily recognizable to an American helps the movie sell to Americans.

And Hollywood markets primarily to American audiences; it isn't as well equipped to do so elsewhere. That part I understand- and it's not like Japan doesn't adapt into its pop culture events that happened in other parts of the world too.

But that's not the whole 'racism in casting' issue.

Japan doesn't really adapt its pop culture. It is decidedly Japanese. Depictions of other cultures are at best naive guesses, at worst - caricatures.

This always reminds me of Thermae Romae.

[White Haven]

Remember what happened when they turned Heimdal into a black guy in the Thor movies? And that was a western production.

Yeah. I remember people remarking on it in passing, the movie coming out, and people being cool with it because it worked. I'm sorry, were you trying to imply there was some sort of a shitstorm over it?

[Gaidin]

Yeah. I remember people remarking on it in passing, the movie coming out, and people being cool with it because it worked. I'm sorry, were you trying to imply there was some sort of a shitstorm over it?

There was something resembling a shitstorm(though not the biggest I've heard of) over the casting announcement and then something resembling a foot-in-mouth moment where they sort of had to shut up and take the mockery exactly because it worked.

[Adam Reynolds]

On the other thand, people in the West don't care much about the local cinematic output of East Asia all that much either.

Even Snowpiercer was a fiasco, and that had mostly Western actors. It is really too bad because South Korea has made some rather good films lately.

[Havok]

Know what? Let's make a Washington biopic where Takeshi Kaneshiro plays Washington, Shaun Toub plays Benjamin Franklin and George III, well, he stays white, but wears a cowboy hat, jeans and talks like a Texan and is played by Billy Zane. You know, for aesthetic reasons.

A) I would watch this.

B) You realize how stupid of a comparison this is right?

[Havok]

I get people getting annoyed with Heimdall. There were no black people in Norse mythology ever, but that being said, they weren't fucking aliens either. BUT, they handled it fucking perfect. No stupid explanation, no stupid joke, it just fucking is. That's the way it should be. Heimdall is Heimdall.

Now changing Johnny Storm's race is weird if you don't change Sue Storm's too. I mean, adopted or whatever is a quick explanation, but then you ask why? Just because they wanted to have more black people? It's a reason to change it, but it's not really a good one. And look at the character, a young, brash, hot shot, rule breaking, skirt chaser. I mean, if you want to say something about race, maybe not the best character to pick. If they wanted some true impact in that aspect, then Make Reed Richards black.

[Metahive]

B) You realize how stupid of a comparison this is right?

No. Not my fault you are not paying attention.

Now changing Johnny Storm's race is weird if you don't change Sue Storm's too. I mean, adopted or whatever is a quick explanation, but then you ask why? Just because they wanted to have more black people? It's a reason to change it, but it's not really a good one. And look at the character, a young, brash, hot shot, rule breaking, skirt chaser. I mean, if you want to say something about race, maybe not the best character to pick. If they wanted some true impact in that aspect, then Make Reed Richards black.

What was the point of racelifting all the inuit inspired main characters of The Last Airbender into whiteness while making all the bad guys a darker shade of brown? What was the point of making Kyo Kusanagi white? What was the point of putting Keanu Reeves front and center in a movie about the 47 Ronin? What was the point of having Johnny Depp play an "insane" caricature of a Native American? What was the point of making Son Goku in Dragonball Evolution a very stereotypically white high schooler?

You know, the comparison isn't stupid because that's exactly what's Hollywood been busy doing in the other direction.

ETA

Yeah. I remember people remarking on it in passing, the movie coming out, and people being cool with it because it worked. I'm sorry, were you trying to imply there was some sort of a shitstorm over it?

One thing, yes there was a shitstorm over it and second, dude, pointing out severe tolerance and variety deficits within the western entertainment industry is going for very low hanging fruit. Just one word, GAMERGATE! Debate over.

[Havok]

B) You realize how stupid of a comparison this is right?

No. Not my fault you are not paying attention.

*sigh*
You really want to compare a completely fictional comic book, that, really, CAN be set anywhere to to a biopic about a real historical person? I know you aren't that dense.

Now changing Johnny Storm's race is weird if you don't change Sue Storm's too. I mean, adopted or whatever is a quick explanation, but then you ask why? Just because they wanted to have more black people? It's a reason to change it, but it's not really a good one. And look at the character, a young, brash, hot shot, rule breaking, skirt chaser. I mean, if you want to say something about race, maybe not the best character to pick. If they wanted some true impact in that aspect, then Make Reed Richards black.

What was the point of racelifting all the inuit inspired main characters of The Last Airbender into whiteness while making all the bad guys a darker shade of brown? What was the point of making Kyo Kusanagi white? What was the point of putting Keanu Reeves front and center in a movie about the 47 Ronin? What was the point of having Johnny Depp play an "insane" caricature of a Native American? What was the point of making Son Goku in Dragonball Evolution a very stereotypically white high schooler?

Guess what, I have never seen the original The Last Airbender, nor the original 47 Ronin, or the original Dragon Ball. I know nothing about them. I have no idea what race anyone is supposed to be. I don't know where they are set.

Guess what?

Neither does the general movie going public. That is the point. I'm the target audience. It's an ADAPTATION for western audiences. What that means is that they want things "westernized" so that we recognize them, so that they look like something we see every day, y'know, NOT foreign. And while we see Japanese, Korean and Chinese people everyday, we don't see their culture, we don't see their society. I mean is there race issues in Hollywood? Yeah, but adapting foreign movies for western audiences isn't one of them.

I mean, fuck, you guys are acting like if a white woman is cast in The Ghost in the Shell that all the copies and versions with a Japanese woman will be destroyed and erased never to be seen again!

As for Depp as Tonto? Man, I dunno. He plays good nutbags I guess. He was in face paint the whole movie. Would it have mattered? However it's funny that you are pissed about that. Why can't a white guy play an native American? I mean you are all for a black guy playing Heimdall, definitely a white Celtic guy, right?

[salm]

They are actors. They pretend to be other people. I can´t see why pretending to be some other person is bad as soon as one of the things that makes the other person different is the color of the skin in general. I mean, I can see where it is a problem in specific cases, like when one of the black guys who happens to be the leader of a group of black guys is purposfully portrayed by a white guy because the producers wanted a white guy to lead black guys and couldn´t see a black guy as a leader.
But in general I don´t care if people portray other people with a different skin color. Or a different sex. If some femal actor can believably pull off playing a male character, who cares? Let her play him. Or a gay dude playing a straight guy. It really doesn´t matter.

[Elheru Aran]

Last Airbender is actually a Western cartoon, by the way. It's an American production. So it wasn't "an adaption for Western audiences"-- it was merely an adaption from cartoon TV series to live action film.

[madd0ct0r]

Yup. totally not a valid example because the cartoon makers are American too. and all americans are white. or something.

Also Flagg- "People want stuff that looks like what they see everyday" - are you sure you want to advance that argument with this particular sci-fi movie?

[Patroklos]

Isn't the live action Aang actor Native American?

[bilateralrope]

That is the point. I'm the target audience. It's an ADAPTATION for western audiences. What that means is that they want things "westernized" so that we recognize them, so that they look like something we see every day, y'know, NOT foreign. And while we see Japanese, Korean and Chinese people everyday, we don't see their culture, we don't see their society.

The Last Airbender cartoon was produced in the US. But that's not important.

What is important is that it shows that this line of thinking that showing foreign cultures is a problem is just wrong. To quote Wikipedia:

Avatar: The Last Airbender (Avatar: The Legend of Aang in some regions) is an American television series that aired for three seasons on Nickelodeon from 2005 to 2008. Avatar: The Last Airbender is set in an Asiatic-like world[2] in which some people are able to manipulate the classical elements by use of psychokinetic variants of Chinese martial arts, known as "bending". The show combined the styles of anime and American cartoons, and relied on the imagery of various East Asian, Inuit, Southeast Asian, South Asian, and New World societies. Therefore, the series regularly enters the conversation regarding its consideration as an anime work.[3]

If showing foreign cultures was a problem, then the cartoon series should have suffered for it. Instead it was very popular:

When the series debuted, it was rated the best animated television series in its demographic;[43] new episodes averaged 3.1 million viewers each.[43] Many people regard it as a major animated series, and it has gained somewhat of a cult following. A one-hour special showing of "The Secret of the Fire Nation" which aired on September 15, 2006, consisting of "The Serpent's Pass" and "The Drill", gathered an audience of 5.1 million viewers. According to the Nielsen Media Research, the special was the best performing cable television show airing in that week.[44] In 2007, Avatar: The Last Airbender was syndicated to more than 105 countries worldwide, and was one of Nickelodeon's top rated programs. The series was ranked first on Nickelodeon in Germany, Indonesia, Malaysia, The Netherlands, Belgium, and Colombia.[45]

The four-part series finale, Sozin's Comet: The Final Battle, received the highest ratings of the series. Its premiere averaged 5.6 million viewers, 95% more viewers than Nickelodeon had received in mid-July 2007.[46] During the week of July 14, it ranked as the most-viewed program for the under-14 demographic.[47][48] Sozin's Comet: The Final Battle also appeared on iTunes' top ten list of best-selling television episodes during that same week.[49] Sozin's Comet: The Final Battle '​s popularity affected online media as well; "Rise of the Phoenix King", a Nick.com online game based on Sozin's Comet: The Final Battle, generated almost 815,000 game plays within three days.[50] IGN listed the complete series as 35th in its list of Top 100 Animated TV Shows.[51]

So do you have any evidence that audiences want things "westernized" ?

[TheFeniX]

Isn't the live action Aang actor Native American?

Pretty sure he's mostly European mutt out of Texas (something I can relate too, except we've got a bit more French in our family). It seemed his affinity for martial arts and melee weapons had a lot to do with his casting.

Interestingly, the voice actor credits for Avatar is ethnically about as diverse as the live adaptation. Of course, without the awesomeness that Zuko is voiced by "Rufio, Rufio!" Then again, that's not exactly a parity considering a small group of voice actors do the lion's share of non-Hollywood voice acting and you don't see them on-screen.

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC the A:TLA casting for Aang was mostly looking at a bunch of karate schools and such for kids between X-Y years to audition. It was pretty much just "kid of a certain age who can make throwing a stick around look good". Maybe not such a great idea if you're trying to pick a main character. Explains a lot about that movie sucking balls, really...

[Metahive]

IIRC the A:TLA casting for Aang was mostly looking at a bunch of karate schools and such for kids between X-Y years to audition. It was pretty much just "kid of a certain age who can make throwing a stick around look good". Maybe not such a great idea if you're trying to pick a main character. Explains a lot about that movie sucking balls, really...

...and I repeat again, the casting for extras of korean descent included calls for them to come in their "kimonos"*. It's like asking british extras to show up for a casting in their "Lederhosen".

Also, I don't buy at all that audiences could only stand watching main characters of their own race. I mean, the characters in Avatar are clearly supposed to be East/South-Eastern Asian and inuit inspired and the follow up series has a rather dark-skinned woman as the front character and is still successful. Clearly this show there's actually a ready-made audience for this and Hollywood is just full of shit as usual.

Also, what's the eplanation again for making all the bad guys more visibly ethnic than they're in the show? What's the excuse for whitening the heroes up and darkening the villains down?







*Kimono is a traditional japanese dress. The korean counterpart would be the Hanbok.

[Elheru Aran]

Just info-dumping, man I don't disagree that it's fucked up and wrong. Hollywood by and large is a conservative establishment despite their seeming liberal attitudes. They're afraid to offend (and thus drive away) the majority of movie-watchers in the US, and they haven't really realized-- despite the recent influx of foreign funding-- that the rest of the world is an audience as well as Americans. Until they shake that notion off, they aren't going to "get it".

[AniThyng]

Just info-dumping, man I don't disagree that it's fucked up and wrong. Hollywood by and large is a conservative establishment despite their seeming liberal attitudes. They're afraid to offend (and thus drive away) the majority of movie-watchers in the US, and they haven't really realized-- despite the recent influx of foreign funding-- that the rest of the world is an audience as well as Americans. Until they shake that notion off, they aren't going to "get it".

It's not like Japan doesn't have the capability to make a GITS Live Action movie if they wanted to - they did pull off the Kenshin movies after all. I kinda see Havok's point here - this is a western adaptation made in Hollywood - it doesn't actually have to take place in Japan or involve Japanese at all (though I stand by my observation that they could have picked an asian american* if they wanted to - BUT that would still mean the movie would essencially be set in the west or involve the west in some way - if the story is to be completely faithful and set in Japan with a japanese cast, why are we not just going ahead and making it with a japanese crew again? Why bring Hollywood into it at all? Why not do a Kenshin then just subtitlte it and market it in the US then?). Unfortunately I haven't been able to find out what the content creators or japanese otaku feel about it...

Going back to Edge of Tomorrow/All You Need is Kill again, keeping the manga/japanese feel of it would have consigned it to being an even more niche movie than it already was - people aren't necessarily joking when they point out that manga and Japanese pop sci-fi is full of tropes that would possibly be jarring or off-putting to a typical audience (ffs, even a typical not-otaku--asian audience.). GitS possibly suffers not much from this, I suppose, since it's probably one of a select handful of anime/manga you can confidently list as a favourite without getting sideways glances from regular non-otaku folk.

*As opposed to an Asian...uh...Asian.