Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Borgholio » 2014-11-25 09:16pm

Jub wrote:
cmdrjones wrote:Sorry for the thread necro, but I was reviewing this while writing my story and I caught something.... If Centauri mass drivers are useless for space combat because the asteroids get thier energy from falling from orbit... then how did the asteroid ambling through space smash that ISD bridge in ESB? I know people have floated the idea that their shields were damaged at Hoth, but, still, you'd think their hull would be more than enough to ward off space rocks NOT moving at incredible re-entry speeds, right?
From the movie we have no evidence that it actually damaged the bridge, it explodes against the hull and that's all we see.
I dunno...it sure looks like the bridge tower at least is gone. Unless the debris cloud from the asteroid is just that thick...

Look between 3 and 4 seconds.

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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by cmdrjones » 2014-11-25 09:23pm

Batman wrote:Small problem-the ISDs were in that asteroid field 'on purpose'. They risked damage (assuming there was any beyond one ISD losing communications for the time being) as the price for finding the Falcon. People would wander into the path of your massdriven asteroids...why, exactly?

#1 they're not "mine" they're Centauri... but that's a quibble.
#2 Hmmm good point, I suppose if the Centauri were desperate enough they might try launching a group just as a sacrificial lamb ship opens a jump point right on top of an ISD? Of course the lamb would get blasted, but hey, if an ISD is raping your planet... why not?
A dozen or so asteroids launched at once and puking from a hole ripped in space time right behind you might do some serious damage...
Now, whether the Centauri scanners could target and ISD that precisely is another matter.

I admit, it's a hail mary play.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Jub » 2014-11-25 09:24pm

Borgholio wrote:I dunno...it sure looks like the bridge tower at least is gone. Unless the debris cloud from the asteroid is just that thick...

Look between 3 and 4 seconds.

I don't see how you could say one way or another from the scene if it was damaged or not. You simply don't see the scene long enough afterwards to know what it did besides knocking comms offline.

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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by cmdrjones » 2014-11-25 09:25pm

Jub wrote:
cmdrjones wrote:Sorry for the thread necro, but I was reviewing this while writing my story and I caught something.... If Centauri mass drivers are useless for space combat because the asteroids get thier energy from falling from orbit... then how did the asteroid ambling through space smash that ISD bridge in ESB? I know people have floated the idea that their shields were damaged at Hoth, but, still, you'd think their hull would be more than enough to ward off space rocks NOT moving at incredible re-entry speeds, right?
From the movie we have no evidence that it actually damaged the bridge, it explodes against the hull and that's all we see.

We also see a couple imperial officers screaming in horror and vanishing... would a commo interruption or smeared windows make you throw up your hands and ward your face if you KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt that the shields/hull were nigh invulnerable to asteroids?

Come now...
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-11-25 09:54pm

few things about that scene, just because something isn't nigh invunerble doesn't mean it's it's useless either, also the Hoth asteroid field was really really thick so if the ISDs spent any siginifigant time in there they would subject to hundreds if not thousands of potential impactors, so it's not unreasonble to assume that some might get thru, also that asteroid that hit the ISD is huge, it probably is larger then rocks seen flung at the narn homeworld.

also we know next to nothing about the centauri Massdrivers beyond that they exist, what's their rate of fire, how about accuracity or do the ships need to braced or otherwise special to use them.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Jub » 2014-11-26 03:21am

cmdrjones wrote:We also see a couple imperial officers screaming in horror and vanishing... would a commo interruption or smeared windows make you throw up your hands and ward your face if you KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt that the shields/hull were nigh invulnerable to asteroids?

Come now...
Ever played a flight sim and ducked just before impact or a near miss? Or how about driving your car and flinched as branches scraped over your windshield? None of these things can hurt you, but you still react to them. Now imagine if those branches were replaced with a giant ass rock about to smash into your view port.

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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by FaxModem1 » 2014-11-26 03:31am

That would explain the recoiling, but unless the Captain was so embarrassed at his flinching that he turned off the channel, something damaged the ship enough to cut communications.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Jub » 2014-11-26 03:32am

FaxModem1 wrote:That would explain the recoiling, but unless the Captain was so embarrassed at his flinching that he turned off the channel, something damaged the ship enough to cut communications.
The shields were down, you can't armor a comm/sensor array, so the officer recoils at the asteroid, the comms array gets destroyed and the scene plays out exactly as we see it.

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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by FaxModem1 » 2014-11-26 03:44am

I know it's non-canon now, but according to the novelization, this asteroid actually killed him and destroyed his ship:Link

So, unless we want to say that the Captain was just having a sudden moment of panic while daydreaming and paying more attention to the bridge's windows than the Dark Lord of the Sith, who just executed an officer less than a week ago for being incompetent, it's more likely that he died from impact.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Jub » 2014-11-26 07:01am

FaxModem1 wrote:I know it's non-canon now, but according to the novelization, this asteroid actually killed him and destroyed his ship:Link

So, unless we want to say that the Captain was just having a sudden moment of panic while daydreaming and paying more attention to the bridge's windows than the Dark Lord of the Sith, who just executed an officer less than a week ago for being incompetent, it's more likely that he died from impact.
The movie should trump the novelization and I can't see just the loss of the bridge tower destroying the ship. ISDs have secondary bridges and the only other case where we see a bridge destroyed the ship was only lost due to crashing into the DSII. Plus, if you're focused on something else, and a sudden event happens, do you not often react with fright at the sudden intrusion on your consciousness?

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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by FaxModem1 » 2014-11-26 07:36am

Safe to assume at least that since we see an explosion when the asteroid impacts the ship, the Captain reacting in terror, and his image suddenly stopping, that he was most likely killed, regardless of the ship surviving or not.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Ted C » 2014-11-26 01:56pm

cmdrjones wrote:Sorry for the thread necro, but I was reviewing this while writing my story and I caught something.... If Centauri mass drivers are useless for space combat because the asteroids get thier energy from falling from orbit... then how did the asteroid ambling through space smash that ISD bridge in ESB? I know people have floated the idea that their shields were damaged at Hoth, but, still, you'd think their hull would be more than enough to ward off space rocks NOT moving at incredible re-entry speeds, right?
Because the mass of the asteroid combined with its relative velocity make it a threat to the ISD.

The asteroids launched by the Centauri mass driver are smaller in mass and aren't going very fast (relative the the Centauri warship) when launched. They will be going much faster by the time they reach the surface of Narn.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-11-26 05:25pm

those centauri massdrivers have also only seen used against planets aka really slow and predictble targets, compared to an ISD a planet is practically standing still, and earths rotation is about 0.004 degrees per second (or roughly 15 degrees per hour) which is way slower then we've seen ISD turn since we've seen them turn in scene that was less then a minute long, aka the scene with the two ISD nearly crashing into each other.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by cmdrjones » 2014-11-26 06:01pm

Ted C wrote:
cmdrjones wrote:Sorry for the thread necro, but I was reviewing this while writing my story and I caught something.... If Centauri mass drivers are useless for space combat because the asteroids get thier energy from falling from orbit... then how did the asteroid ambling through space smash that ISD bridge in ESB? I know people have floated the idea that their shields were damaged at Hoth, but, still, you'd think their hull would be more than enough to ward off space rocks NOT moving at incredible re-entry speeds, right?
Because the mass of the asteroid combined with its relative velocity make it a threat to the ISD.

The asteroids launched by the Centauri mass driver are smaller in mass and aren't going very fast (relative the the Centauri warship) when launched. They will be going much faster by the time they reach the surface of Narn.

Exactly, so if the Centauri asteroids, Smaller, and slow sans gravity AREN'T a threat, why were the ASteroids in space a threat? They aren't moving very fast either, right? is it just because of size?
If so, even with the targeting problem set aside, could the Centauri Asteroids damage an ISD? I suppose if you are the Centauri you will want the asteroids mocing as fast as possible to #1 have a better chance of hitting and #2 do more damage, but, how to get close enough without getting vaporized?
AS I said above, fire from Hyperspace using a sacrificial lamb ship...
Again, it's a hail mary, but I'm trying to decide if the Centauri would even deem it to be practicable.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by cmdrjones » 2014-11-26 06:02pm

[quote="Lord Revan"]those centauri massdrivers have also only seen used against planets aka really slow and predictble targets, compared to an ISD a planet is practically standing still, and earths rotation is about 0.004 degrees per second (or roughly 15 degrees per hour) which is way slower then we've seen ISD turn since we've seen them turn in scene that was less then a minute long, aka the scene with the two ISD nearly crashing into each other.[/quote

Exactly why a hyperspace bombardment would be necessary...
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-11-26 07:05pm

the thing is you're assuming that the Jump drive can used the same time as the Massdrivers, now it's implied jumpdrives use a signifigant amount of power (the White Stars being the only ships of that size class to have the techonology to have the right power-to-size ratio) you're also assuming that they target an ISD with enough accuracity to hyper in close enough to pull this off.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Batman » 2014-11-26 07:45pm

Exactly one ISD out of the fleet, after an indeterminate but definitely longer than a few minutes time in a ridiculously dense asteroid field including ones that []dwarf[/i] an ISD had its defenses battered down to the point that it lost communications. (Antennae are fragile. Who knew). You want to replicate that scenario with Centauri massdrivers, you better have a 'hell' of a lot of ships. And last I checked, the only ones with hyperdrives precise enough to even try were the Minbari and the White Star fleet (and by extension, presumably the Vorlons and the Shadows).
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by cmdrjones » 2014-11-27 08:04am

Lord Revan wrote:the thing is you're assuming that the Jump drive can used the same time as the Massdrivers, now it's implied jumpdrives use a signifigant amount of power (the White Stars being the only ships of that size class to have the techonology to have the right power-to-size ratio) you're also assuming that they target an ISD with enough accuracity to hyper in close enough to pull this off.

The Centauri Mass drivers are a sort of slot mounted on the front of their cruiseds with a roughly round asteroid guided towards the planet with what looks like a type of railgun. Assuming they use railguns to accelerate the Asteroids, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't work in hyperspace, being that B5 energy weapons work just fine. Now, You have a good point that only the Minbari or an elder race would have the capacity (i.e. amazingly accurate hyperdrives) to target an area as small as an ISD in realspace, BUT the Drakh or the Shadows could do so, and the Centauri have been known to ally with such powers. In my story, maybe they will. I will also assume that ISDs put out an incredible amount of power by B5 standards and that detecting them, even from Hyperspace will be amazingly easy. What with those giant engines and such, the Imperials have never been accused of being subtle.

Now on to the second question: Assuming they could get the ISD to hold still (Give it something to shoot at) do you think they could gather enough ships in one place to launch enough asteroids that they could even damage an ISD?

Third point: There is an argument that the ISD was either not damaged by the asteroid, it just seemed like it, or that it was damaged off screen by hundreds of other asteroids.
That may very well be true. If this is accurate, then the whole maneuver, even if it COULD be pulled off, would be ineffective, because the ISD's shields would need to be hit by hundreds of asteroids at once, and the Centauri fleet only was shown to have a few dozen asteroid spitters.

Thanks for this actually, this is shaping up to be a GREAT (if futile) Dambusters type dramatic scene later on in the story!
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-11-27 12:41pm

the thing is that SW hyperspace isn't the same as B5 Hyperspace (in fact B5 hyperspace has more in common with the Warp from WH40k then with SW hyperspace) and ISD doesn't have much reason to enter B5 hyperspace willingly and Centauri ships cannot enter SW hyperspace (they don't have the tech for it) so it's unlikely that the two woule ever meet outside of realspace and my point was that we don't know if one can power-up the massdriver while at the same time using the jumpdrives to enter realspace while weapons have been used soon after enter realspace or even while entering it doesn't mean every weapon can be used while doing so.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by cmdrjones » 2014-11-27 01:53pm

Lord Revan wrote:the thing is that SW hyperspace isn't the same as B5 Hyperspace (in fact B5 hyperspace has more in common with the Warp from WH40k then with SW hyperspace) and ISD doesn't have much reason to enter B5 hyperspace willingly and Centauri ships cannot enter SW hyperspace (they don't have the tech for it) so it's unlikely that the two woule ever meet outside of realspace and my point was that we don't know if one can power-up the massdriver while at the same time using the jumpdrives to enter realspace while weapons have been used soon after enter realspace or even while entering it doesn't mean every weapon can be used while doing so.

true, that's why it was a sacrificial lamb play.... 1 ship jumps the others shoot through the hole.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-11-27 03:11pm

well there's still the problem of knowing exactly where the ISD will be, after all B5 ships are blind to events in realspace while in hyperspace, meaning that the Centauri are either gonna need a way of having an ISD exactly where they want (mind you the jump point iaccuracity will still cause issues) or be will to expect that they're gonna loose alot of ships (which even if flown on auto-pilot will be a resource loss) without even scratching an enemy simply due the enemy not being there.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Batman » 2014-11-27 08:22pm

Well that depends on 'how' not there the ISD is. Since B5 ships 'are' blind to what happens in realspace outside communications through a gate/jump point, if the ISD vamoosed 20 minutes ago all they lose is the fuel they spent getting there. It's when the ISD is 75,000km to the upper left of where they expected it that things get ugly, at least for the ship opening the jump point. The rest might still get away since I suspect once the sacrificial lamb is killed, the point will close so the Imperials can't chase them.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-11-27 10:10pm

Batman wrote:Well that depends on 'how' not there the ISD is. Since B5 ships 'are' blind to what happens in realspace outside communications through a gate/jump point, if the ISD vamoosed 20 minutes ago all they lose is the fuel they spent getting there. It's when the ISD is 75,000km to the upper left of where they expected it that things get ugly, at least for the ship opening the jump point. The rest might still get away since I suspect once the sacrificial lamb is killed, the point will close so the Imperials can't chase them.
the way I understood his proposal was that the Centauri would use 1 ship to open the portal then shoot thru that ship before the imperials can respond meaning that no matter what they'd be 1 jump-capable ship down as one of their own ships had an close encounter of the rocky kind and that's assuming the best case-scenarion of the ship being uncrewed, if it's crewed then you loose also a trained crew for what's essentially a shot in the dark, since essentially you're praying to what ever god the certauri have responsible for war gambits that the ISD just happens to be in your line of fire.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Batman » 2014-11-27 10:28pm

Why would they have to shoot 'through' the ship? B5 jump points are a hell of a lot larger than the ship creating them even for the bigass ones like Sharlins or Omegas, plenty of room to shoot around it. The ship opening the jump point is a fatality because even if the tactic works, the TL bolts lobbed its way won't magically cease to exist because the ISD that fired them died.
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Re: Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-11-27 11:43pm

Batman wrote:Why would they have to shoot 'through' the ship? B5 jump points are a hell of a lot larger than the ship creating them even for the bigass ones like Sharlins or Omegas, plenty of room to shoot around it. The ship opening the jump point is a fatality because even if the tactic works, the TL bolts lobbed its way won't magically cease to exist because the ISD that fired them died.
I'm just saying that's I understood the tactic to be, sure it's rather stupid one seeing as the jump point should be big enough fire past but then it's not my tactic.

That said might work if the centauri used a shuttle or other small craft to lure the imperials into the firing line, however has there been any cases of weapons fired from Hyperspace into realspace or the other way around, I remember fights fully in hyperspace or fully in real space but I can't recall any that were in both at the same time.
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