Ahem.Jub wrote:
Yet we never see radar used in this capacity by modern militaries even when it would be useful. You don't see military bases with radar dishes pointed at the ground to detect people sneaking up on them, nor do you see this technology used to point at roads to pick up insurgents planting IEDs. The burden of proof is on you to show that that we have radar that is used to specifically find man sized targets and target ground weapons systems at it. You can screech and point to planes and missile locks all you want, but that's ignoring the work and it takes to make a weapons system compatible with a plane's fire control systems. You literally can't just attach a radar set to a gun and have it work without millions of dollars of R&D going into the setup.
I didn't create the scenario with the aim of being unfair. I read the description of scry and came up with that interpretation. I resent your bullshit accusation that I started this thread with the purpose of bashing FR and making things unfair.Yes, but you use your scenario to say, you can't scry on anybody on Earth because you think they're an orc, if you were making any attempt to be fair you would have allowed for scrying and disguise to work as normal. By not doing so you take away a major advantage that one side would normally enjoy. So don't use your contrived scenario to limit one side's abilities in what you've stated to be a versus debate.
The compatibility wasn't the problem. It was the likelihood they would know it. Which I kind of stated, but someone you strawman this isn't non canon (which I reserved for pun pun) Its like me saying every other country in the world gets F-22. When you object saying that they don't have the know how to build it, I then say but its compatible with the physics of planet earth. And it wouldExcept that these spells are in sources stated to be compatible with the FR campaign setting. Hell, I could bust out shit from Dragon Magazine in this debate if I wanted and it would fit the cannon policy for the universe we're discussing.
still fit into the canon of planet earth that F-22 exists.
Ahem.
Where did I ever state that he will fight for either side in the debate? I merely stated that such things as nigh infinite beings and infinite damage/action loops are possible using the spells in D&D. It was an example of their top end ability, not some statement that these beings show up and thus modern earth instantly gets wiped.
So which side are they existing for? FR or Earth. Either way you are implying they will fight for a side. Why do people say they never said x on a message board, when someone can just go and show where they said X.earlier Jub wrote: Pun-pun could potentially exist, he wouldn't have much of a reason to make his presence known if he did. The same goes for the other broken outliers. They might, or might not, exist, but they could and they could only exist for one side.
Awareness of their follower is on Earth, awareness that Earth exists doesn't explain how it translates to "know where person x" is on Earth which was where this original point started.The fact that Clerics can cast spells and pray for new ones on our planet is proof that the gods are able to exert their power on our world. If the god can grant power and channel power through a follower it follows that they must be aware of and interact with that follower. Thus their reach extends to our world. There is also the fact that there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to see Earth when they can see into our Faerun from whichever home plane they happen to be resident on.
I explained why in the very post you replied to.Then why even have the debate about scrying? Why not simply say, it works as normal, I just wanted to make this sort of like that one orc thread and am so uncreative that I had to literally make one side orcs?
I think the pressure exerted by a bullet is bit different form the pressure on the blunt part of an arrow.We try that in real life and it doesn't always work, let alone against a being that can literally dodge or deflect projectiles. Hell some monks can scoop them out of the air and toss them back with roughly the same force you fired them at.
Only after you have made sarcastic comments like "there is this thing called google" and "I expect people to know the basics of D & D" even though you got wrong (and admitted to being wrong) about some these "basics" like one of the weather control spells. This makes me think you're doing this to try and cowl people to not to ask too closely.
I've been backing them up thus far have I not?
Skimmer already provided the proof. However even if they didn't use such methods, you are literally assuming real world humans will never ever adjust tactics in the face of enemy with different capabilities.I've asked for proof that they've ever been used to detect invisible people or that the military would deploy this as a method of detecting things coming out of these portals.
Ignoring for a moment that Skimmer already showed it, you are pretty demanding that if I were to postulate a solution combining existing technologies that would be disallowed unless they actually have done so. Yet with your powergaming examples you want everyone to accept that FR characters combine these existing capabilities without once showing an NPC having done so. Riiiight.Again show me an example of soldiers using this sort of kit in the field. You can't just asspull weapons systems that we don't have out of no where.
Trekkie - The Borg can assimilate and master any enemy technology it comes across including ones vastly more advanced than its own.That may be so, but it doesn't make this any less possible. It merely makes it a tool that might not be used.
You - The magic user casting a Wish spell can create any enemy (non magical) technology it comes across, including ones vastly more advanced than his own race's technology.
You seriously cannot see anything wrong with this no limits fallacy.
I seriously doubt that there has been an official game where such an interaction has been possible. Also, in the Culture example, that 25,000gp would summon nothing as gold has no value to such a society.
Ha ha ha ha. Ok I am going to use this later on.
Cool. Waste the XP on modern medical supplies then.Mages and Clerics can't be everywhere at once, so gaining an additional advantage wouldn't be a terrible idea.
That still doesn't over come the problem of how long it takes to get from a medieval society to one now.That one book could doesn't need to be an exact copy of an existing book. You could instead wish for a combined, non-magical, tome of all knowledge on a subject. Given that, as per this link parchment is 1/5 of a gold piece you could get a tome containing 125,000 pages on any subject you desire. It might not be enough to bootstrap them anywhere, but it's going to give them some idea of how our world works.
If that's the vein of your argument then its pointless. A Mage can beat the Culture. It can create technology millions of years in advance of his race (and our own world) even if it doesn't exist.Would you use this same argument to say that a mage couldn't summon a staff with a unique pattern on because that specific staff doesn't exist?
I would argue that against creating things that the other side has if the technological difference is vast just like how we can't assume the Borg will automatically assimilate Culture technology. Because it becomes a no limits fallacy. I did however chose not to press the tank issue or the AK-47 issue I thought it would be a waste of XP to create these things, and without the ammo and fuel even if it did succeed as opposed to simply fizzling.
However if you want to play a rules lawyer then what's to stop me saying and I am paraphrasing your "Culture" argument, the Earth trades in goods with fiat currencies, and not in gold pieces. Or an even more bullshit one but perfectly acceptable by your standards, we buy gold in bullion and not in gold pieces. Remember, you started this lawyering bullshit, so don't complain when I used that against you. I mean if say China builds a tank, its not paying its workers or the company in gold pieces right? Ha ha ha.
Actually I do have a reason to suspect what is in non FR source books may not be known to Faerun. For example some of what's mentioned eg prestige classes are of religious orders of non Faerunian Gods. Lets say Ordained Champion from the book Complete champion. Sure a person from the FR can learn it but unlikely they would worship a foreign god or even be aware of them. Just like other countries might be able to build an F-22 equivalent eventually. There just isn't evidence to suggest they have.These spells are cannon to the universe and, in many cases, explicitly compatible with the FR campaign setting. Unless you have a reason to believe that they only get spells, feats, and classes from the books specific to the FR campaign, there is no reason to assume that these spells aren't known among the people of the realms.
I can get past a radar encampment as well. Walk past it. Getting past the radio wave is another matter given how fast light travels in air and how extensive radar can be.
They could pray to the gods and ask for advice on how to proceed. Or cast something like, say, find the path and set the destinations to be the most important factories to the world's war efforts. Then you get a literal glowing path that even gives advice on getting past mechanical obstacles (so much for that automated radar idea).
I thought of that before I made my suggestion. Which is why I suggested organisms bigger than you know bacteria, like insects. A fly would be at least 500 000 times the size of E.coli. In any event I also had an idea of flanking the tank with good old beasts of burden like the good old day, which are significantly larger than humans and take the damage instead of the tank.Again, humans are literally covered in microorganisms and the spell never fizzles because it accidentally hits one of them. So the burden of proof is on you to show an example of this technique working the way you claim it will.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha. ROTFL.Jub wrote:No. Only if it chooses to be visible. Only if it chooses to. You literally have no way of confining them or observing them if they don't wish to be observed.Does it interact with gravity? Does it interact with light? Does it interact with sound?
Ok I am going to so much fun with this. Well since YOU stated a ghost doesn't interact with gravity here is what is going to happen when you create a ghost. Before the necromancer can say "I am your master" the ghost is going to disappear. After trying a few times, the Necromancer might work out the ghost appeared to be travelling at speed of 30 km / second, although from the ghost's perspective its the necromancer who is travelling at that speed.
Now of course since this doesn't occur on Faerun its most probably because of some magical property of Faerun.
Wait - you are going to say when you meant no to the question does it interact with gravity, you really really meant "only when it chooses too."
So the limitation against power gaming also works on them as well. Good to know.
Yet we can't power game because, by the rules of D&D, it takes years of study to the near exclusion of all else to gain access to even first level spells.
You know what. I wasn't going to pull this cannard, but in response to all these rules lawyering, the United States decides to come up with their own band of geeks who seek to find out how to nullify their advantages. Meanwhile real scientists work on how to utilise our advantages. Here is what they came up with.
You see, there is a D & D novel which just so happens to showcase a weakness most likely unknown to powergamers and D & D wankers. It's this novel. The Malestrom’s eye by Roger E Moore from the Cloakmaster cycle of Spelljammer. Not surprisingly its not well known because Spelljammer novels didn't make money for them (TSR), although as a teen I thought the books were pretty entertaining. Back to the book.
You see the hero Teldin Moore on his spelljamming ship tried to find the Ultimate Helm. To that end they sought out a sage on a crystal sphere which had interesting inhabitants. For one thing there are these giant megafauna (literally their foot is at least 120 miles wide) who create this anti magical lake. The property of the water extends several feet away from the lake, and even Teldin's legendary cloak while not destroyed was not able to use its magic once drenched in this water. BTW, the anti magical property persisted for at least years. Now here is the interesting part about how they create the lake
– chapter 13 page 212, 1992 edition (from my collection naturally)
Ok its well known to the Gnomes that immense pressure destroy magical power even without this megafauna example. Given that the megafauna and the anti magic lake was well known for years, its fair to say that water after undergoing this process seems to somehow retain this antimagic property in violation of all known laws of physics and sounds like homeopathy (but hey this is magic right?). Now its true we don't know what 3.14159265359 X10^37 scruples / square acre actually means in SI units, however we can reach an upper limit.The megafauna's tracks destroy all magical power beneath them, simply crush it out, voiding the dweomer. We are speaking of pressures greater than three point one four one five nine two six five three five nine times ten to the thirty-seventh power scruples per square acre, of course, far beyond any known magical tolerance levels, once the megafauna puts down its foot-a process which takes centuries, as you can imagine
You see, water freezes at 0 degrees celsius at room temperature. However we know that we can freeze water at room temperature if we subject it to immense pressure. So at 27 Celsius a pressure of 10^9 pascals will freeze the water. We don't observe this with the megafauna. Thus we derive a upper limit which is really high and most likely much higher than the pressure exerted by this megafauna. Going on the pressure exerted by the megafauna is "far beyond any known magical tolerance levels", so the exact breaking point is actually much less. So I doubt FR will know about this weakness. Unless they are gnomes. And even then it might take them a while to figure out what we can do.
So we first start by subjecting water to immense pressures. We eventually work out just how much pressure we need to breach the "magical tolerance levels". Eventually we figure out how much of this antimagical water we can mix with normal water and still retain effectiveness. Oops, some of the magical advantages don't work on us.
Oh, and the US waterboards a FR mage with anti magical water and then tries to justify it as needing to protect their troops.
Now I know some people are going to say I am just pulling shit of my arse. If only someone had uploaded a pdf copy of that novel just so we can check if its true.
Oh wait.