Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

[Mr Bean]

For everyone badmouthing Alyx seems to be forgetting ignoring that over half her dialog has nothing to do with Gordon. I'll grant at the start that towards the player her attitude can be summed up as submissive and eager to please... but towards everything else it's anything but. In HL2 one need look no farther than Alyx's relationship between her father and Judith, that of the daughter knowing her parent is falling for someone she can't stand. Or her attitude towards Barney, Dog and Dr Kliener, we don't get that sense of strong real person so much when she's dealing with the player as when she's dealing with everyone else.

In HL2 Episode 1 this is further worked on if you pay any attention to her actions towards stalkers. In one of this post game release interviews I remember reading they had to change a line because of player actions. Specifically after escaping the stalker car where she has her little freakout, she said othat she needed a minute to calm down at which point the players were supposed to move on. However they found players either instantly charged on ahead or they stopped and gave Alyx her moment to collect herself not knowing there was no dialog or interaction beyond that. They had to change the line to "give me a moment... you go on ahead" because they found to many of their players were willing to give up time doing nothing to give Alyx time to collect herself because they felt sorry for the lines of computer code and pixels.

Alyx still is a good example of female characters done well within the constraints imposed. If Gordon can't talk then there is a hard limit on what you can do with Alyx, no amount of fancy writing can change the fact that she's in essence giving her lines to a blank slate that is Gordon Freeman.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I don't have any beef with Alyx, I just find her less of an icon for people to use when she is still only a secondary character with, as you say, a very limited way to convey any depth based on how the mute hero plays out the game. She's not ticked any wrong boxes, but neither is she really a paragon of what a female lead can be because of said limitations.

As an aside, has anyone gotten the new Tomb Raider and, if so, what is Lara really like in this reboot? We all know the rape thing, I'm just curious about any other major changes to her since she was typically held up along with Ripley as how to do an action heroine.

[Stark]

Los tells me they dropped the 'Mash A to not get raped' stuff, but after watching those trailers they can go swing.

[Alkaloid]

Add in a plot thread about the pirates trafficing in child slaves and women will go into protector mode just fine.

I would just like to say that given the context of the thread, the irony of this sentence is delicious.

[Vendetta]

[quote="Mr Bean"
Alyx still is a good example of female characters done well within the constraints imposed. If Gordon can't talk then there is a hard limit on what you can do with Alyx, no amount of fancy writing can change the fact that she's in essence giving her lines to a blank slate that is Gordon Freeman.[/quote]

Yes, and if you use that time for simpering at the (male) player through their (male) avatar then you have not created a good female character, you've created a nerdbait wank fantasy who will never question anything the player does. The fact that nerds fell for the nerdbait doesn't make her a good female character, just good nerdbait.

[Mr Bean]

Yes, and if you use that time for simpering at the (male) player through their (male) avatar then you have not created a good female character, you've created a nerdbait wank fantasy who will never question anything the player does. The fact that nerds fell for the nerdbait doesn't make her a good female character, just good nerdbait.

What are you going to do Vendetta, please write me the gripping emotional scene between Alyx and this immobile mute wall here named Gordon Freeman, please write me that scene.

[Stark]

Are you aware that doesn't actually address what he's saying?

[Mr Bean]

Are you aware that doesn't actually address what he's saying?

No my point is what kind of character interaction can you craft one it's entirely one sided? Can her interactions with Gordon be anything other than eager to please which is where the wish fulfillment comes in, can you write Alyx as antagonist, humble, stand-offish, or anything else considering HL2 can be divided into "NPCs trying to murder you" and "NPC's trying to help you". When your primary method of interaction with the world involves throwing radiators with the gravity gun, within the limitations of the game how can you make Alyx anything OTHER that what she is in relation to the player?

His point is Alyx is a bad character because of how she treats freeman(Wish fulfillment), my point is that's pretty much the only way you can write her since the interaction is one sided with the player, and she's still a good character because of all her interactions with everyone who's not the player.

[Vendetta]

How about a scene where she displays any form of agency or desires of her own other than to help Jesus with a side order of fawning. At no point does Alyx do anything for herself because she wants to.

It's fucking easy to imagine not shit ways to write a supporting character who is actually a real character with desires and agency, even in a game where the main character is a mute, Alyx Vance is not it. For further information see Marle in Chrono Trigger, just about every time the plot or a sidequest is advanced by the actions of a member of the party, it's Marle acting on her own agency (making decisions and taking actions in accordance with her own desires). She also exists in a work where the player avatar is a mute and manages to have a more nuanced relationship with that player avatar despite the fact that they have about eight animations between them.

[Mr Bean]

How about a scene where she displays any form of agency or desires of her own other than to help Jesus with a side order of fawning. At no point does Alyx do anything for herself because she wants to.

Yes because when Freeman went into Nova Prospect that was HIS idea to go save her father rather than her idea. There's a few others I can name but that sticks out as a big one.

And I found the comparison to Merle since I can describe her the exact same way as Alyx, everything she does is on Chrono's behalf, about the only time she's not trying to help Chrono is the start of the game where she makes you take her around. When else does she do anything but help out Chrono?

[Vendetta]

How about a scene where she displays any form of agency or desires of her own other than to help Jesus with a side order of fawning. At no point does Alyx do anything for herself because she wants to.

Yes because when Freeman went into Nova Prospect that was HIS idea to go save her father rather than her idea. There's a few others I can name but that sticks out as a big one.

Did you spot the problem there? Freeman goes to Nova Prospekt. Alyx doesn't do anything. That's what it means to have no agency, she doesn't act on the world on her own behalf, she only ever takes actions for the convenience of the player.

And I found the comparison to Merle since I can describe her the exact same way as Alyx, everything she does is on Chrono's behalf, about the only time she's not trying to help Chrono is the start of the game where she makes you take her around. When else does she do anything but help out Chrono?

It's the other way around. Crono does things to support volitional acts that Marle takes, you go chasing around through time because Marle's reaction to finding out about Lavos is "we should stop this", and she repeatedly demonstrates that sort of agency, when Crono dies he is brought back because Marle finds a way to do so, when Crono is arrested she doesn't sit around waiting for something to happen, she goes to order him released, when Yakra tries to take over it's Marle who makes all the decisions to find the rainbow shell and bring it to the courtroom, and she does these things outside the player's control, so it's not a case of her actions being driven by player agency. This is not just "male player avatar does something because female character gives instructions", it's "female character acts on own agency". (NB: Almost all plot significant agency displayed by characters in Chrono Trigger is displayed by female characters, Marle, Ayla, Schala, Queen Zeal, Azala... Just about the only male character who drives the plot in any significant way is Magus)

[Terralthra]

How about a scene where she displays any form of agency or desires of her own other than to help Jesus with a side order of fawning. At no point does Alyx do anything for herself because she wants to.

Yes because when Freeman went into Nova Prospect that was HIS idea to go save her father rather than her idea. There's a few others I can name but that sticks out as a big one.

Did you spot the problem there? Freeman goes to Nova Prospekt. Alyx doesn't do anything. That's what it means to have no agency, she doesn't act on the world on her own behalf, she only ever takes actions for the convenience of the player.

Err...they both go. Gordon meets Alyx there.

[Vendetta]

At which point Alyx is immediately a supporting character again. Hell, it would have a perfect opportunity to show her doing things and having Gordon's path through the prison support Alyx rescuing her father, but that's not good enough for Science Jesus.

[Terralthra]

Err, did you play the game? She manipulates the security system, guides him through the prison, hacks turrets, finds her father's location, and programs the teleporter for them all to escape. She does a lot. All things to accomplish her goal of freeing her father (the accomplishment of said goal actively hinders the larger goal of defeating the Combine forces on Earth, in fact).

[Vendetta]

You're listing the examples but not spotting the connecting thread. Everything Alyx does is to support Gordon's path through the prison. She isn't doing this for herself, she's there for the benefit of the player. That's all her actions as well, when she's not there to simper at the player to make them feel like Science Jesus she's there to be a supporting player in their heroics.

This is a character with no agency, everything she does is for the benefit of the player's avatar, even when her character should be personally invested her actions all revolve around supporting the player, not doing things herself.

It's a more pernicious example than the kidnapped princesses of the video because you see her running around with a gun so she must be all strong and capable and stuff, but when you look at what she actually does it falls apart, she's not actually empowered because she lacks agency, she's strictly a convenience item for the player.

That's one of the reasons I criticised the style of the video, by showing the blatantly obvious example of disempowerement but not actually discussing what empowerment means and what a positive example would actually look like, people get it wrong even when they're trying to do better.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I'm wondering then. Would Meryl from MGS be equivalent to Alyx? Half the time she's doing her own thing and actively pissing off Snake in that respect, although she does eventually join him side-by-side, she won't even take his advice to swap guns because a .50 AE isn't for girls (then her quip about being as comfortable with it as she is a bra burned him).

[lPeregrine]

Everything Alyx does is to support Gordon's path through the prison. She isn't doing this for herself, she's there for the benefit of the player.

If you insist on looking at it that way of course you find that's the 'answer'. Alternatively, you could say that everything Gordon does is to support Alyx's path through the prison to rescue her father. The player's job is to sit around shooting at endless waves of meaningless and expendable enemies while Alyx does all the real work of breaking the prison's security systems, finding her father's location, etc. Gordon shows no real initiative, he just goes along with Alyx's plan and shoots whatever happens to be where she tells him to go.

That's all her actions as well, when she's not there to simper at the player to make them feel like Science Jesus she's there to be a supporting player in their heroics.

I guess you forgot the "hold this flashlight while I kill the zombies" part? Or where Alyx says things like "go deploy those turrets while I do the real work" and the player obediently places them?

[Stark]

Heaps of games use the cliche of 'woman on the radio tells you how to progress', and wouldn't Freud have a field day with that. Its a shame that in one of the lamest examples of this (Cortana) when they decided to make her less one dimensional they made her weaker and have less volition and bigger tits. I mean, at least Gears and Metal Gear have women on the radio who don't always agree with you, who make decisions, etc, instead of just being physically inserted promiscuously into any alien orifice that you can find.

[Alyeska]

In HL2 Episode 1 this is further worked on if you pay any attention to her actions towards stalkers. In one of this post game release interviews I remember reading they had to change a line because of player actions. Specifically after escaping the stalker car where she has her little freakout, she said othat she needed a minute to calm down at which point the players were supposed to move on. However they found players either instantly charged on ahead or they stopped and gave Alyx her moment to collect herself not knowing there was no dialog or interaction beyond that. They had to change the line to "give me a moment... you go on ahead" because they found to many of their players were willing to give up time doing nothing to give Alyx time to collect herself because they felt sorry for the lines of computer code and pixels.

I still waited for her to catch her breath. Never even occurred to me to leave her behind.

[lPeregrine]

Heaps of games use the cliche of 'woman on the radio tells you how to progress', and wouldn't Freud have a field day with that.

I didn't say that it's innovative, just that it's kind of silly to say that she displays no agency as she's doing all the complex hacking work, giving orders, and pretty much using the player character as a walking turret.

[Stark]

I still waited for her to catch her breath. Never even occurred to me to leave her behind.

That's because you've been trained by game scripting to expect a reward for doing so. You 'knew' that if you didn't, the next door wouldn't open until she'd said her dialog anyway. Its not because she was a detailed and textured realisation of a thinking human being you can relate to.

[Terralthra]

You're listing the examples but not spotting the connecting thread. Everything Alyx does is to support Gordon's path through the prison. She isn't doing this for herself, she's there for the benefit of the player. That's all her actions as well, when she's not there to simper at the player to make them feel like Science Jesus she's there to be a supporting player in their heroics.

Everything Alyx does is to support Gordon's path through the prison...to accomplish her goal, at her behest. No, wait, should I pretend that it wasn't her choice to go there, to accomplish her goals, so that your argument actually makes sense? The player doesn't even have a choice in the scenario, no option is presented to rescue Dr. Vance or, you know, not. Alyx wants to save her dad, so Gordon goes along with it. I mean, you're seriously saying that she has no agency because all she's doing is making the player character follow her mission, using her strategy, to accomplish her goals?

This is a character with no agency, everything she does is for the benefit of the player's avatar, even when her character should be personally invested her actions all revolve around supporting the player, not doing things herself.

Are you saying she has no agency because she's letting the guy with the armored, strength-enhancing powered armor and a shitload of weapons take point? It's a logical strategy. She knows about Combine systems, security, etc., so she assigns those roles to herself, while pointing the braindead invincible moving gun turret at anything in her way. Would she be more empowered if she told Gordon to hack systems he'd never seen in his life and tried to shoot her way through hundreds of mooks with a pistol? I mean, they'd certainly both be more dead, and the game would be much less fun to play.

I also question the earlier statement that she falls in love with Gordon. She flirts with him a couple times. And gives him a hug. Her father tries to set them up, and she acts embarrassed. This is "love"? Maybe she just...likes to flirt.

[Alkaloid]

Thats just more of what you've been trained to expect. Character flirts with PC = character wants to make babies with PC.

Part of the problem is theres no reason for her to do it more than twice. You flirt with someone and they just stand there dead silent and stare unblinkingly at you on more than one occasion are you going to do it again? Or are you going to be creeped out and hope they dont crowbar you to death when you back is turned. Marcus Fenix has more reason to have a girlfriend than Freeman for fucks sake, and he has all the personality of a lobotomised ox with rabies. At least you could have a conversation with him that was more than a one sided rant about how he is the most stupidly impolite person in all of history, so why the fuck would smart, apparently capable Alyx Vance make multiple passes at Freeman (even in jest) if he wasn't the PC/chosen one.

[Simon_Jester]

Is it really an in-game fact that Gordon never says anything, as opposed to just... not having his dialogue audible to the player?

[Terralthra]

Is it really an in-game fact that Gordon never says anything, as opposed to just... not having his dialogue audible to the player?

When Alyx first rescues you, there's a pause in the dialogue, after which she says "Man of few words, aren't you?"



It is, like many other things in the game, designed on purpose to draw the player into the player avatar. Any voice actor would inevitably sound not-like-the-player, or say something the player wouldn't say. It's the same reason that despite many surfaces which would be (or are!) reflective, the player's reflection never appears in them.

Thats just more of what you've been trained to expect. Character flirts with PC = character wants to make babies with PC.

Maybe it's just what Vendetta thinks, and maybe what you think. It's not what I think. Alyx flirts with you a few times and gives you a hug. This is not true love. Two people (both longtime friends of both Alyx and Gordon) tease her about it.

Part of the problem is theres no reason for her to do it more than twice. You flirt with someone and they just stand there dead silent and stare unblinkingly at you on more than one occasion are you going to do it again? Or are you going to be creeped out and hope they dont crowbar you to death when you back is turned. Marcus Fenix has more reason to have a girlfriend than Freeman for fucks sake, and he has all the personality of a lobotomised ox with rabies. At least you could have a conversation with him that was more than a one sided rant about how he is the most stupidly impolite person in all of history, so why the fuck would smart, apparently capable Alyx Vance make multiple passes at Freeman (even in jest) if he wasn't the PC/chosen one

Well, maybe Gordon is mute? I mean, you've interpolated all the stuff about being dead silent and staring unblinkingly. Maybe that's what you do when a woman flirts with you? Try just smiling back, next time. Facial expressions, man.

As for why Alyx flirts with Gordon more than once...a) it's not really that often. Most of the time she's cracking jokes, not making passes. b) maybe she likes to jokingly flirt on occasion with everyone, and the reason you don't see it is because the only people she interacts with at length in your presence are her father, her father's lover, and her father's (twice her age or more) friends. Gordon may technically be of an age with Dr. Vance and Barney, but as Dr. Vance mentions, he doesn't look it. c) maybe because Gordon saved her life, multiple times, and took enormous side trips with her to accomplish her goals at great personal expense.