Ahriman hits the nail on the head. If Malack were just a mortal evil cleric, there would actually be some (miniscule) hope that he might change his ways, change alignment, and adopt a more benign deity. As a vampire, however, it is literally impossible for him to ever become Good. Furthermore, as an undead creature, he is an offense to good deities in a way that a mortal creature can't ever be.Ahriman238 wrote:This is an unfortunate consequence of a setting with creature types that are always evil. Durkon is a pretty live and let live sort of dwarf regarding religion, and seeing Malack as a respected colleague he can mentally distance him from the Empire's evils. But vampires are universally evil and Malack is a murderer having at least killed those he previously sired.
The OotS Thread III
Moderator: Steve
Re: The OotS Thread III
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 30165
- Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Re: The OotS Thread III
Another point:
Durkon can be philosophical, he can accept that death is part of the natural order and that therefore priests of death are too. Malack carries his day to day life out without (much) obvious personal evil; if someone had told me his alignment was Neutral a few dozen episodes ago, I would have believed it.
So as long as it's just Malack's personality, and not his strange metaphysical status that comes from being a vampire, Malack is acceptable to Durkon.
Durkon can be philosophical, he can accept that death is part of the natural order and that therefore priests of death are too. Malack carries his day to day life out without (much) obvious personal evil; if someone had told me his alignment was Neutral a few dozen episodes ago, I would have believed it.
So as long as it's just Malack's personality, and not his strange metaphysical status that comes from being a vampire, Malack is acceptable to Durkon.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Re: The OotS Thread III
If you go back to the conversation between Durkon and Malack when they first met Malach very very strongly implies that he's a Neutral cleric and not evil. Given that Durkon just found out that his friend (and partial mentor) is now evil his visceral reaction doesn't really shock me. (Also, the spell he used to save Belkar? Researched with Malack's help.)
'After 9/11, it was "You're with us or your with the terrorists." Now its "You're with Straha or you support racism."' ' - The Romulan Republic
'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
Re: The OotS Thread III
"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."
"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin
"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer
Re: The OotS Thread III
One can only hope that Durkon included himself in that Mass Death Ward.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11891
- Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
- Location: Cheshire, England
Re: The OotS Thread III
One assumes so. No point using a Mass spell on one person right?Ted C wrote:One can only hope that Durkon included himself in that Mass Death Ward.
Re: The OotS Thread III
Well, depends if Durkon was within 30 feet of Belkar when he cast it to be legal target himself.
-
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1725
- Joined: 2004-12-16 04:01am
Re: The OotS Thread III
Burlew's put enough commentary into the story about the racism in the alignment system of D&D that I would hope he doesn't require every vampire in his world to be evil. Malack's also demonstrated that he's quite different from the stereotypical kind of evil found in Xykon or Belkar, even if that is his alignment. Honestly, his good vs evil morality seems pretty similar to non-soul-bound Vaarsuvius.
-
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1227
- Joined: 2006-01-07 01:33pm
Re: The OotS Thread III
I don't see that going this way, though. Malack made no reasonable offers to Durkon (abandon your friends or give Tarquin the gate) and has benefitted from a vicious dictatorship. This might turn into a little more of a commentary on morally reprehensible neutrality.Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Burlew's put enough commentary into the story about the racism in the alignment system of D&D that I would hope he doesn't require every vampire in his world to be evil. Malack's also demonstrated that he's quite different from the stereotypical kind of evil found in Xykon or Belkar, even if that is his alignment. Honestly, his good vs evil morality seems pretty similar to non-soul-bound Vaarsuvius.
Re: The OotS Thread III
I dunno, I think that "Let's both withdraw to a safe distance and agree not to interfere" was a pretty reasonable offer, and all indications are Malack made it in good faith. At worst it leaves both teams equally weakened, and if anything it favors Durkon's side, seeing as Malack is in all likelihood both higher level than Durkon and, being a vampire, probably more of a direct physical threat.CarsonPalmer wrote:I don't see that going this way, though. Malack made no reasonable offers to Durkon (abandon your friends or give Tarquin the gate) and has benefitted from a vicious dictatorship. This might turn into a little more of a commentary on morally reprehensible neutrality.
Durkon's reasons for rejecting it are valid ones, but it's clear Malack genuinely likes Durkon and wants to avoid hurting him. Commentary or not, it's still sad.
-
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1725
- Joined: 2004-12-16 04:01am
Re: The OotS Thread III
I'm not exactly sure whether or not Malack realises why the Order finds this temple so important, too; did he get briefed on the portals?
And regardless, interpersonal drama due to racial alignment just seems less dramatically fulfilling than when it's done for real reasons, so I'm still pulling for the latter.
And regardless, interpersonal drama due to racial alignment just seems less dramatically fulfilling than when it's done for real reasons, so I'm still pulling for the latter.
Re: The OotS Thread III
I think that abandoning the your team mates (who are certainly counting on your assistance) during a crisis is an evil act. Not as evil as turning against them, but still pretty bad. That's what Malack was asking Durkon to do, and I don't see how Durkon could be expected to accept such a proposal.Ralin wrote:I dunno, I think that "Let's both withdraw to a safe distance and agree not to interfere" was a pretty reasonable offer, and all indications are Malack made it in good faith. At worst it leaves both teams equally weakened, and if anything it favors Durkon's side, seeing as Malack is in all likelihood both higher level than Durkon and, being a vampire, probably more of a direct physical threat.CarsonPalmer wrote:I don't see that going this way, though. Malack made no reasonable offers to Durkon (abandon your friends or give Tarquin the gate) and has benefitted from a vicious dictatorship. This might turn into a little more of a commentary on morally reprehensible neutrality.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11891
- Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
- Location: Cheshire, England
Re: The OotS Thread III
Yes indeed. I seem to recall heaven having a poor opinion of Roy's 'lets let the thieves keep Elan, he's an idiot anyway' episode way back when.
- Terralthra
- Requiescat in Pace
- Posts: 4741
- Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
- Location: San Francisco, California, United States
Re: The OotS Thread III
Sure...the Lawful Good heaven did. The neutral heavens might've taken a more nuanced view, just as they might take towards Malack's offer(s).Crazedwraith wrote:Yes indeed. I seem to recall heaven having a poor opinion of Roy's 'lets let the thieves keep Elan, he's an idiot anyway' episode way back when.
Re: The OotS Thread III
I think you're exaggerating it a bit? Like I said, removing the Order's cleric from the field in exchange for a higher level cleric on the other side does count as a net gain for the Order in my book. And if Xykon had shown up or something Malack probably would have been open to negotiating a new deal.Ted C wrote:I think that abandoning the your team mates (who are certainly counting on your assistance) during a crisis is an evil act. Not as evil as turning against them, but still pretty bad. That's what Malack was asking Durkon to do, and I don't see how Durkon could be expected to accept such a proposal.
- Ahriman238
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 4854
- Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
- Location: Ocularis Terribus.
Re: The OotS Thread III
I feel like this is the wrong way to look at it. If Durkon had accepted both parties retiring from the field, he would be tying up and effectively neutralizing a high-level threat. And he'd have a far higher chance of keeping Malack out of the fight then trying to bludgeon him with a hammer will. But this would rely on Durkon trusting Malack at least a little, and he clearly doesn't.Ted C wrote:I think that abandoning the your team mates (who are certainly counting on your assistance) during a crisis is an evil act. Not as evil as turning against them, but still pretty bad. That's what Malack was asking Durkon to do, and I don't see how Durkon could be expected to accept such a proposal.Ralin wrote: I dunno, I think that "Let's both withdraw to a safe distance and agree not to interfere" was a pretty reasonable offer, and all indications are Malack made it in good faith. At worst it leaves both teams equally weakened, and if anything it favors Durkon's side, seeing as Malack is in all likelihood both higher level than Durkon and, being a vampire, probably more of a direct physical threat.
I'll guess you haven't read, or forgot, Durkon's backstory in 'the origin of PCS.' I doubt any of this can count as a spoiler, but just in case.Terralthra wrote:
Sure...the Lawful Good heaven did. The neutral heavens might've taken a more nuanced view, just as they might take towards Malack's offer(s).
Spoiler
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
Re: The OotS Thread III
873 is up.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes
- Ahriman238
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 4854
- Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
- Location: Ocularis Terribus.
Re: The OotS Thread III
Heh. Heal hurts undead.
Malack was fighting pretty smart, up til his trying poison against a dwarf's constitution. I think the outcome here may actually be in doubt, if Durkon can hold of Malack long enough for the paralysis on Belkar to wear off.
Malack was fighting pretty smart, up til his trying poison against a dwarf's constitution. I think the outcome here may actually be in doubt, if Durkon can hold of Malack long enough for the paralysis on Belkar to wear off.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11891
- Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
- Location: Cheshire, England
Re: The OotS Thread III
wow. Already? Brave Ser thumb is working overtime I see. Especially since he's got the Belkar pdf out as well.
And this cleric's duel has much better special effects budget that the last one lol.
And this cleric's duel has much better special effects budget that the last one lol.
Re: The OotS Thread III
Who wants to bet next comic will open with Malack laughing at Durkon and stating protecting oneself from positive energy is most obvious thing for undead cleric? If Xykon has a ring protecting him from exactly this, Malack should have reached same conclusion...
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11891
- Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
- Location: Cheshire, England
Re: The OotS Thread III
And He's looking shocked and going 'AAAARGH!' just to commit to the joke is he?
- Rogue 9
- Scrapping TIEs since 1997
- Posts: 18648
- Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
- Location: Classified
- Contact:
Re: The OotS Thread III
I know the next one's already up, but I'd have said it anyway if I'd checked the thread: In what way is a single-classed good aligned cleric poorly equipped to deal with a vampire?
It's Rogue, not Rouge!
HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
Re: The OotS Thread III
Because Durkon has crap CHA score?Rogue 9 wrote:I know the next one's already up, but I'd have said it anyway if I'd checked the thread: In what way is a single-classed good aligned cleric poorly equipped to deal with a vampire?
Though, since Malack is Cleric, too, he should be perfectly aware of his anti-Cleric vulnerabilities.
See this, this, this or this strip. All bait and switches from what happened in last frame.Crazedwraith wrote:And He's looking shocked and going 'AAAARGH!' just to commit to the joke is he?
Also, as someone pointed out, Malack shouted, but you don't see any wounds appear on him. Compare.
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 30165
- Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Re: The OotS Thread III
Maybe Malack's caster level as a cleric isn't all that much higher than Durkon's; as noted, being a vampire gives him a level adjustment.
Obviously Malack has no problem with the idea of abandoning Tarquin to go solve his own problems. It's not irrational for him to think other beings (like Durkon) would at least consider doing the same to avoid a costly battle they're likely to lose.Ted C wrote:I think that abandoning the your team mates (who are certainly counting on your assistance) during a crisis is an evil act. Not as evil as turning against them, but still pretty bad. That's what Malack was asking Durkon to do, and I don't see how Durkon could be expected to accept such a proposal.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Re: The OotS Thread III
The offer makes sense from his perspective for other reasons. withdrawing gets malack out of a situation he didn't want to be in to begin with. Maybe Malack figures that Tarquin is smart enough to withdraw if things go south while Nale's ego might get in the way and get him killed. Malack can afford to leave because he doesn't care what happens to any else in his group but Tarquin, and Malack can raise him if needed