Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Channel72 » 2012-01-24 10:30am

First, we'd need to really identify the "canonical" sources that constitute Greek mythology. (And do we include Roman sources in this? Do we need to distinguish between G-canon and R-canon? :wink:)

The best sources (highest-level canon) are probably the archaic-period sources like the Iliad and Odyssey, along with Hesiod and all of the Homeric hymns, because they are the oldest sources and therefore "closest" to the mythological heroic age (which corresponds to the real-world Mycenaean era, back through mythological pre-history.)

Then we could have a "lesser canon", which includes the Greek playwrights, like Aeschylus and Euripides, along with other classical-era and Hellenistic sources. And finally, there's the Roman writers like Virgil and Ovid.

Ted C wrote:I'm pretty sure that the creation of humans predates the birth of the Olympians in most accounts. Rhea kept Cronus from swallowing Zeus like his elder siblings and sent him to Crete to be raised.

There's conflicting accounts of how man/woman were created. According to Hesiod, Kronos created the first humans during the "Golden Age". The creation of woman, however, is often associated with the Prometheus story and Pandora. But I don't think there's anything in the literature that says the gods gain power by human worship. However, the gods obviously enjoy human worship, and they are constantly appeased/placated by humans who promise to sacrifice X animals or whatever in their honor. There might be some echoes of Mesopotamian mythology with the idea that sacrificing animals to the gods was like "feeding" them - but this idea doesn't seem to be applied too literally, since most of the scenes on Olympus depict the gods feeding on ambrosia.

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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Thanas » 2012-01-24 11:12am

Ted C wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Ted C wrote:Also, the Olympians are, quite literally, powered by worship.

Eh?

At least according to some of the mythology books I've read, the Olympians derived power from the love and worship of humans. That's what made them more powerful than the Titans and allowed them to take over.


I have not seen anything like that. Where?
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Ted C » 2012-01-24 11:42am

Thanas wrote:
Ted C wrote:At least according to some of the mythology books I've read, the Olympians derived power from the love and worship of humans. That's what made them more powerful than the Titans and allowed them to take over.


I have not seen anything like that. Where?


Heck, I haven't seen that particular mythology book in years. We can dismiss that point as apocryphal, I suppose, until I can find a new reference.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Revy » 2012-01-24 02:38pm

From everything I've ever read, the Olympians defeated the Titans because the Cyclops made three kickass weapons for Zeus and his brothers - the thunderbolt for Zeus, the helm of darkness for Hades, and the trident for Poseidon. These, combined with several of the Titans actually siding with the Olympians, lead to them winning.

Not from believers clapping their hands.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Ford Prefect » 2012-01-24 03:41pm

DudeGuyMan wrote:Weren't a couple deities wounded by mortals on the battlefield during the Illiad? Aphrodite and Ares, I think. I'll bust out my old copy of Mythology by Edith Hamilton tomorrow or something.


Diomedes ruined the shit of the Apollo faction on more than one occasion. He was Athena's go-to for ruining Ares' day. But, you know, there are no Diomedes left in the world.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Ted C » 2012-01-25 10:46am

Revy wrote:From everything I've ever read, the Olympians defeated the Titans because the Cyclops made three kickass weapons for Zeus and his brothers - the thunderbolt for Zeus, the helm of darkness for Hades, and the trident for Poseidon. These, combined with several of the Titans actually siding with the Olympians, lead to them winning.

Not from believers clapping their hands.


Might have been an interpretation peculiar to that one book.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Bakustra » 2012-01-25 08:12pm

That interpretation comes from Aristophanes' The Birds, which dates from the Socratic period of religious thought, quite distant from what we think about as "Greek Mythology".

In addition, Demeter, as the grain goddess of a Mediterranean climate, would produce a scorching eternal summer to kill off grains and cereals, rather than an eternal winter, which is the product of interpretations through the lens of a more northerly climate.

That said, the interpretations of the Olympian deities tended to be in flux, and our conception of, for example, the Moirae is very dependent on what period we look at. In later conceptions they are above even Zeus as the personification of Fate, or as part of the greater conception of Ananke. However, apparently in the Gigantomachy they were vulnerable enough to be defeated by the Giants without the help of Heracles.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby DudeGuyMan » 2012-01-25 11:52pm

I wish they'd make a Greek mythology movie that wasn't total twaddle. I guess there was some Theseus movie recently that had fuck all to do with the myths of Theseus, which seems like a waste.

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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Revy » 2012-01-26 04:25am

That would be 'Immortals', featuring a modern recurve bow spray painted black to serve as plot device of the movie (which didn't even have any basis in actual mythology, and it's not like Greek myths have a shortage of magic weapons). Oh, and the Greek gods mysteriously having to follow a Federation Prime Directive of non interference because ... well, just because, okay? Don't forget that the gods had the ability to effortlessly slaughter Titans (now in mini grey zombie flavour!) and yet choose to imprison them instead of just executing them all, again, just ... just because! Stop asking questions! Look at the pretty SFX instead! Ooooh, fancy!

It was made by the same people who did 300, and is to Greek mythology as 300 was to the Spartans and Persians. I think someone pointed out that you could remove Theseus from the movie entirely and it would make next to no difference. But hell, it has Ares waltzing about in slow mo making headspolde, so it's all cool. Right? Right?
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby mr friendly guy » 2012-01-26 08:56am

At least Immortals was somewhat more entertaining than Crap Clash of the Titans, which gave us the awesome Muslim Djinn suicide bombing Medusa.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Thanas » 2012-01-26 09:22am

Lolwut?
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Ted C » 2012-01-26 09:58am

The remake of "Clash of the Titans" was even more of a mythology trainwreck than the original.

And they had also picked up on the "gods powered by prayer" schtick, which I can now attribute to Aristophanes.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby DudeGuyMan » 2012-01-27 10:32pm

Bit of a tangent, but I'll post it here instead of in a new thread.

A what-if scenario I've thought of in the past is what if, instead of facing off against Achilles and Odessyeus and friends, Troy were facing off against the previous generation of Greek heroes? I have to imagine Troy loses rather easily, but still comes out far better than it did in the Illiad.

You know, Theseus asks politely for Helen back while Orpheus rocks a tune on his lute about how they should totally agree and Hercules stands in the background flexing and breaking rocks over his own head. Odds are they get Helen back with a contrite apology from Paris and hardly any bloodshed. Unless of course the gods conspire to fuck this up.

But even if it comes to a fight, it would probably be HERC SMASH followed by a civilized offering of terms from Theseus the next day, not a decade of back-and-forth slugfest.

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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby mr friendly guy » 2012-01-28 02:20am

Thanas wrote:Lolwut?

See for Yourself. It starts occurring around 4:30. Apologies for the quality. Alternatively you could watch this one if can stand the Mortal Kombat music someone dubbed over it. Apparently they thought it makes it more cooler or something.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Ford Prefect » 2012-01-29 04:30am

DudeGuyMan wrote:Bit of a tangent, but I'll post it here instead of in a new thread.

A what-if scenario I've thought of in the past is what if, instead of facing off against Achilles and Odessyeus and friends, Troy were facing off against the previous generation of Greek heroes? I have to imagine Troy loses rather easily, but still comes out far better than it did in the Illiad.

You know, Theseus asks politely for Helen back while Orpheus rocks a tune on his lute about how they should totally agree and Hercules stands in the background flexing and breaking rocks over his own head. Odds are they get Helen back with a contrite apology from Paris and hardly any bloodshed. Unless of course the gods conspire to fuck this up.

But even if it comes to a fight, it would probably be HERC SMASH followed by a civilized offering of terms from Theseus the next day, not a decade of back-and-forth slugfest.


If my memory serves me right, Heracles actually did sack Troy once. It took him way less than ten years, too.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Darth Yoshi » 2012-01-29 05:52am

DudeGuyMan wrote:Bit of a tangent, but I'll post it here instead of in a new thread.

A what-if scenario I've thought of in the past is what if, instead of facing off against Achilles and Odessyeus and friends, Troy were facing off against the previous generation of Greek heroes? I have to imagine Troy loses rather easily, but still comes out far better than it did in the Illiad.

You know, Theseus asks politely for Helen back while Orpheus rocks a tune on his lute about how they should totally agree and Hercules stands in the background flexing and breaking rocks over his own head. Odds are they get Helen back with a contrite apology from Paris and hardly any bloodshed. Unless of course the gods conspire to fuck this up.

But even if it comes to a fight, it would probably be HERC SMASH followed by a civilized offering of terms from Theseus the next day, not a decade of back-and-forth slugfest.
Well, if Heracles is involved, the Trojans would definitely not want trouble on account of him sacking Troy by his lonesome once before, although Hera would probably work twice as hard to trigger violence. Most likely by inciting the Achaeans to break their word or something.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Ahriman238 » 2012-01-29 11:20am

IIRC, it was Herakles sacking the city in Priam's boyhood that inspired the King of Troy to build huge freaking walls and considerable stores for siege.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby DudeGuyMan » 2012-01-30 01:24am

Having read just a little online, it seems Herc sacked Troy with a company of 12 men and that it had at least some walls. He almost Herc Smashed some buddy of his for being the first to rush through the breach.

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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Ted C » 2012-01-31 10:19am

Just for giggles, how about the modern military versus Apollo from TOS "Who Mourns for Adonais". He says he's prayer-dependent, but that seems to be more of an emotional need than a power source; his temple seemed to be powering his abilities.

I suppose you could even throw in the rest of the pantheon for more fun. Suppose that in the 21st Century, the Olympians haven't yet committed mass suicide from the loneliness of not being worshipped. Instead, they try to force humanity to worship them the way Apollo did. Have they got what it takes to compel the modern world to worship them?
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Revy » 2012-01-31 10:41am

We've got William Shatner. We're sorted.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Batman » 2012-01-31 06:26pm

For the time being. The Olympians live forever (or at least long enough for it to make no practical difference), William Shatner...does not.
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Solauren » 2012-01-31 07:18pm

Couldn't the Trek Olympians just use their force field projection abilities to literally CRUSH all resistance?

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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Ted C » 2012-02-01 10:51am

Solauren wrote:Couldn't the Trek Olympians just use their force field projection abilities to literally CRUSH all resistance?


That's the question, isn't it?

Remember, the Olympians have a strategic objective: Convince modern humanity to start worshipping them again.

Human militaries have their own objective: Either kill off the Olympians, or convince them to go away so we can pursue our own religious desires.

Which side is likely to achieve its objective?
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Darth Fanboy » 2012-02-01 02:17pm

mr friendly guy wrote:Ares can withstand machine gun fire, but he however gets routinely trounced by Hercules whose blows at best knock him back a few metres. I am sure we can calculate the work done by estimating the mass of actor Kevin Smith,


Don't you mean Kevin Sorbo?
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Re: Modern Day Military VS Olympian Pantheon.

Postby Revy » 2012-02-01 02:58pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Don't you mean Kevin Sorbo?


In the Hercules and Xena shows, Ares was played by actor Kevin Smith.
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