SDN-dragons! (RAR, detailed)

[Solauren]

Plus Kobolds make good eating....

[Serafina]

To make this even more cruel:
He's still a tiny Kobold. Sure, he has very powerful magic - but the more powerful amongst us can cast antimagic sphere. Remember what happend to V in OoTs when the Black Dragon did that?
By my count he has about 115 hitpoints (assuming average dice roll), so he'll be quite easy to munch down.

[Starglider]

You can make a ton of money just selling a single pound of gold, and it'll all be profit, and won't attract suspicion or disrupt the market.

USD 28K is not 'a ton of money'. You can in fact sell a literal ton of gold without significantly moving the market (hedge funds do this with paper gold many times a day, although dumping physical is a bit rarer), which will raise a useful but not overwhelming USD 60M or so. Gold is a bad thing to try and raise many billions from though as most of its value is monetary, which depends directly on scarcity. There are various more useful and price resiliant things you could make; it's almost pointless to go into specifics as pretty much all high-level magic has multiple ways of being monetised for massive value. Of course exploiting this to a large extent will cause massive economic disruption, e.g. mass curing hundreds of thousands of cancer patients is great for humanity in general but will put a lot of healthcare specialists out of work.

[Forgothrax]

So, after reading the OP I took this up as an CharOp challenge to see what I could get up to.

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A WHITE WYRMLING THOU NOW ART!

There isn't much (only Q saying otherwise) preventing the more powerful dragons amongst us from setting up a teleportation-networks into orbit. Cue cheap space travel, which would also be an enormous profit factor for those dragons that enable it.

Q is fine with dat.

After a lot of contemplation, i'd like to exchange two levels of Heartfire Fanner for two levels in Seeker of the Song (from Complete Arcane).

Q is also fine with dat.

Q??
I got a question...

Can I take a prismatic dragon instead of a green?

No epics. Period. Unless you're Lord Wong.

What does the sourcebook say? What does a dragon's horde look like? Are they put simply into large hordes or do we actually make elaborate hordes? What do we like to collect other than silver and gold?

You can collect anything you find valuable, though dragons tend to go a bit for gold, silver, and gemstones. They also like magical items. Artistic items depending on the dragon may show as well.

[Dark Hellion]

Yes, I was pretty tongue-in-cheek with that post. Note that it isn't anywhere near the most powerful thing you can do with 24 HD. I am pretty sure you can get 9th level Sorc, Cleric, Druid casting, and 9th level psionics from that. Instead I was trying to make a powerful and flavorful character that I could justify the choices of from my own background (I like books, I like music and I have communed with natural substances).

To make this even more cruel:
He's still a tiny Kobold. Sure, he has very powerful magic - but the more powerful amongst us can cast antimagic sphere. Remember what happend to V in OoTs when the Black Dragon did that?
By my count he has about 115 hitpoints (assuming average dice roll), so he'll be quite easy to munch down.

Come on fina, you know the solution to anything that prevents magic is more magic. Invoke Magic/Celerity/Contingency FTW.

But really what we are going to run into a lot amongst the various Great Wyrms is the high level dilemma of risk/reward with fighting. Except for direct existential threats there is little reason to actually fight about anything. You are effectively immortal (Clone+Quintessence, etc.) and the layers of magical defense that one can have on them means that fighting is effectively rocket-tag. It isn't worth the inconvenience of having to come back to life over some philosophical disagreement when you can spend the next 2000 years arguing about it. In fact, being able to argue about it will probably provide a relief from the boredom of eternal life.

As for the True Dragon argument, it is a RAW/RAI problem because the definition of what makes you a True Dragon is not mechanically well defined. It really is up to the DM to decide whether the power-level of the game justifies it or not. I think that dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons, I think the real problem is the way that True Dragons were given abilities to qualify for various things without proper prerequisites (which never works).

Besides, I will be a perfectly fair 40 lbs god.

[Serafina]

Actually, while dragon DO like magic items, when comparing the size of their hoards they only count them as half-value, according to the Draconomicon. The reason for this is presumably that most magic items do not look as good as a mundane item of similar value - a sword +1 costs much more than a masterwork sword, but doesn't necessarily look much better.
Quote from the Draconomicon, page 28: "Though the primary measure of status among dragons is age, the value of a dragons hoard is what determines the relative status of dragons of the same age (when comparing hoard values, dragons consider magic items to be worth one-half their market value)".

A WHITE WYRMLING THOU NOW ART!

Really? Why not go with my option and turn him into a mature adult kobold?

Q is also fine with dat.

Thanks.
Really, Bards just have waaay to many cool options.
I'd really love to have levels in Dracolexi (who use draconic words to produce magical effects). Unfortunately their ability depends on speaking rather than singing (thus not fitting for a song-dragon) and there is no way to get a significant boost to their abilities (like the prestige class and feat i used, which allow me higher-level bardic magic than my class levels indicate since i have so many other hitdice.)
I'd also love more songs from various prestige classes, which are just unreachable - oh well, guess i can't have everything


Also, another question:
Do you allow Sovereign Archetypes from Dragons of Eberron?
I know that those are known for being major cheese, but that's really due to the dragonwrought kobold trick Darth Hellion tried to pull off. For actual true dragons they are a fair tradeoff: You loose the ability to cast Cleric and Domain spells as Arcane Spells, and gain some other benefit instead. It is a slight buff since you gain additional class skills, but only two appear to be anywhere near too strong IMO (the one with extra casterlevels and the one with extra feats).
Here is a list of the benefits provided:
Child of Eberron: You gain druidic as a language and survival as a class skill. You can cast druid spells as arcane spells.
Flame of the Forge: Craft and Use Magic Device as class skills. +2 caster level for creation spells. Can add a couple of creation spells to spelllist, and gains Retain Essence Artificer Class feature at Caster Level 9.
Fortunes Fang: Bluff and Disguise as class skills. Gains the ability to cast cleric spells and domain spells from feast, luck and trickery as arcane spells.
Guide of the Weak: Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills. Can cast cleric spells and community and protection domains as arcane spells.
Lightkeeper: Gains divine Aura like Cleric. Can take the extra turning feat (and this the turn undead ability). Can cast Cleric and Glory, Law, Sun and War spells as arcane spells
Loredrake: Spellcraft as class skill. Increases effective sorcerer level by two, reduces racial hitdice to D10 (this one is probably the strongest and potentially most unbalancing one).
Master of the Hoard: Appraise, Diplomacy and Sense Motive as Class skills. Can cast Cleric and Charm, Commerce and Travel domain spells as arcane spells.
Passions Flame: Perform as class skill. Can Rage as if caster level equals barbarian level (say with 9th casterlevel as a 9th level barbarian), without gaining any improved forms of rage the barbarian would get at higher levels, stacks with barbarian levels.
Stalking Wyrm: Hide, Move Silently and Survival as class skills. Track a Bonus feat. Can cast spells from Air, Animal and Earth domains as arcane spells. Gains Favored Enemies as if caster level equals ranger level, stacks with ranger levels.
Wyrm of War: Gains proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and all armor including shields. Gains a bonus feat every 4 racial Hitdice, selected from the Fighter list or from dragon-specific combat-related feats (such as wingover). (This one essentialy trades healing abilities for fighter-feats).

I am not personally interested in either of those, as none of those provides any benefit for me or fits my intended character theme.
However, if you allow them, i would ask if the following homebrewn archetype would be allowed:
Voice of the Dragon: Gain Bluff, Diplomacy and Perform as class skills (I already have those anyway, but it fits the archetype and others might profit from it if allowed). Gains Bardic Music as if caster level equals bard level, stacks with bard levels. Can cast spells from Bard spell list (since there are many unique bard spells on that one, but it lacks spells of levels higher than 6, i think this is a fair trade)

Either way, just asking out of curiosity. It would refine my character concept, and others might be interested in the archetypes as well. And anything that makes my dragon better at singing is awesome

[Solauren]

Something that everyone should keep in mind for us using magic to boast humanity.

The difference between Science and Magic is;

Magic and Science can do the same things, however -

Magic can quickly achieve greatness, but is hard to reproduce, and is often lost when the magician dies.

Science is slower to achieve greatness, but is easy to reproduce, and continues onward even after it's creator does not.

I would suggest using our magical abilities as a stop gap solution, (and also to show what is possible), but not let humanity rely on it.

i.e Okay, let's build a teleportation network, but make sure humanity towards towards making a transporter network independent of magic.

i.e Okay, we'll help you colonize Mars, but you're not to cut funding to developing better Space-drives.

[Serafina]

/rant about pure powergamers, actual game-relevant stuff in the middle bolded.

As for the True Dragon argument, it is a RAW/RAI problem because the definition of what makes you a True Dragon is not mechanically well defined. It really is up to the DM to decide whether the power-level of the game justifies it or not. I think that dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons, I think the real problem is the way that True Dragons were given abilities to qualify for various things without proper prerequisites (which never works).

See, the thing is that True Dragons were obviously only intended to be creatures that were written like the creatures under the header "dragons" in the Monster Manual. The cases where they could ignore prerequisites made a lot of sense (why should a dragon select a draconic heritage feat to count as a member of its own race, for example?).

Another good example are the Sovereign Archetypes (i just noticed that you used one of those) - they were obviously written to diversify multi-hitdice dragons, who actually have to give up something in order to gain them. But a Kobold lacks the inherent ability to cast spells anyway, so he actually looses nothing from selecting any of those and still gains all the benefits - in fact he can loose the ability to cast cleric spells as arcane spells which he does NOT have in the first place, and then gain the ability to cast cleric spells as arcane spells from an archetype! (or in your case druid spells for whatever reason). Or he can "reduce" his racial hitdie to D10 (since he is a character, he doesn't have a racial hitdie anyway) and gain +2 sorcerer caster level in exchange.
That's just pure cheese.


Now i am the first to admit that i used a bit of cheese myself.
I used a prestige class that grants me 6 levels of bardic music in exchange for a single level of prestige class. Thus, despite only having three character levels, i can sing as well as a 12th-level bard (two more music-levels from the other two levels, and 4 more from a feat that is intended for multiclassing).
However, i actually find that combination to be quite flavorful - otherwise i would only be able to sing as well as a 3rd or (with the feat) 7th-level bard, which would be almost nothing compared to the rest i can do as a dragon anway! And a Song Dragon being able to sing well, as well as Dragons having a form of magic music, makes quite a bit of sense.
In the case that Forgothrax approves my homebrewn Archetype, i'd most likely drop the class-based cheese since i'd have sufficient bardic music without it - i would then have the bardic music ability of a 11th-level bard (7 from casterlevel, 4 from feat) with 14 uses (three more from prestige class), which suits a draconic power level just fine.


The difference is, quite simply, that i am trying to build a flavorful character - while you have completely forgone the flavor of this RAR just to be more powerful. I realize that it was tounge-in-cheek, so this rant isn't so much directed against you, but people with an attitude like that are the ones that give min-maxers a bad name, so i am pretty pissed at that concept in general.

For me, more abilities add more flavor. The fact that my Song Dragon can actually sing well, and actually has a reason to be singing while in combat, and that her magical music based support suits her character - that's more important than how powerful that build actually is. Sure, i am trying to keep it useful, but not without destroying the flavor of my character.


/rant about pure powergamers.

[Ahriman238]

Shouldn't Hellion be a Wyrmling anyway? I thought all VIs and similarly titled were. I second the idea of giving him his wish and letting him be a Kobold... without the classes or templates.

@Serafina, yes it is plently annoying when people just pile on prestige classes and min/max. It is also annoying (though somewhat less so) when players want to ignore all the loot, leveling and die rolls and just play for the collaborative storytelling. I chose a dragon I thought would be cool, it got shot down. So I picked another and if I did haggle over class levels, I think it suits me well enough, personally.

@Solaurenm it's a great idea to try and have our cake and eat it to, bring about a magic-fueled golden age while providing for it to continue when we start dying off in a thousand years. But I think we'll have a hard time selling it to people, corporations, governments etc. Telling them to sink lots of money into research, with uncertain results, into doing things they can already accomplish by asking us?

Best find a way to arrange it so they think it's their own idea.

[bilateralrope]

Something that everyone should keep in mind for us using magic to boast humanity.

The difference between Science and Magic is;

Magic and Science can do the same things, however -

Magic can quickly achieve greatness, but is hard to reproduce, and is often lost when the magician dies.

Shouldn't we apply the scientific method to magic, thus eventually making it a science ?

[Forgothrax]

Do you allow Sovereign Archetypes from Dragons of Eberron?

I am not personally interested in either of those, as none of those provides any benefit for me or fits my intended character theme.
However, if you allow them, i would ask if the following homebrewn archetype would be allowed:
Voice of the Dragon: Gain Bluff, Diplomacy and Perform as class skills (I already have those anyway, but it fits the archetype and others might profit from it if allowed). Gains Bardic Music as if caster level equals bard level, stacks with bard levels. Can cast spells from Bard spell list (since there are many unique bard spells on that one, but it lacks spells of levels higher than 6, i think this is a fair trade)

Either way, just asking out of curiosity. It would refine my character concept, and others might be interested in the archetypes as well. And anything that makes my dragon better at singing is awesome

Archetypes are ok, though one will have to trade for them (that means dragon abilities or material that Q has provided you.)

Shouldn't Hellion be a Wyrmling anyway? I thought all VIs and similarly titled were. I second the idea of giving him his wish and letting him be a Kobold... without the classes or templates.

@Solaurenm it's a great idea to try and have our cake and eat it to, bring about a magic-fueled golden age while providing for it to continue when we start dying off in a thousand years. But I think we'll have a hard time selling it to people, corporations, governments etc. Telling them to sink lots of money into research, with uncertain results, into doing things they can already accomplish by asking us?

Best find a way to arrange it so they think it's their own idea.

Very well. Hellion may choose between Wyrmling White and being plopped into Lord Wong's Dungeon-Demiplane, or Mature Adult Kobold 1HD.

Please do note that arcane magic is not only limited to dragon-kind at this time; we could choose to pass our genes into humanity, thus creating sorcerers, or settle down and open a school of magic for wizards. Most of the older dragons, certainly Solauren, would be knowledgeable enough about magic to cobble together a curriculum for apprentice wizards.

[The Yosemite Bear]

quick we need to get into space so that we can start harvesting our asteriods near the red planet for even rarer metals for our hoards....

so just how much Irridium do you have in your hoard?

[LadyTevar]

It is a very good thing Q acted so quickly, otherwise I would be playing Kobold pinball with him right now. Then again, he is a White Wyrmling... which has all the intelligence of a puppy. A tiny puppy with a icy breath weapon.

Where's Meebo when you need him..... *sigh* Why don't I just crush the little monster and solve all our problems?

[Crossroads Inc.]

Bear in mind Lady, that many such RAR's have the house rule of "Only those participating in the thread get to participate."
This helps cuts down on us worrying or trying to plan for the actions of hundreds of bored members who will have not a freaking clue of what is going on.

[OmegaChief]

Perhaps we should have our GM clarify that, or at least give us some generic actions for the board members who arn't here for us to toy with perhaps?

As for myself, I'm nowhere near familair enough with DnD in general, never mind 3.5 ed and it's infamous sixteen million source books, so I guess I'll just stick with my generic brass dragon powers.

[Dark Hellion]

Man, you people need to lighten up and learn to take a joke. That character was far more an intellectual exercise than anything else.

Snipped a bit
See, the thing is that True Dragons were obviously only intended to be creatures that were written like the creatures under the header "dragons" in the Monster Manual. The cases where they could ignore prerequisites made a lot of sense (why should a dragon select a draconic heritage feat to count as a member of its own race, for example?).

Another good example are the Sovereign Archetypes (i just noticed that you used one of those) - they were obviously written to diversify multi-hitdice dragons, who actually have to give up something in order to gain them. But a Kobold lacks the inherent ability to cast spells anyway, so he actually looses nothing from selecting any of those and still gains all the benefits - in fact he can loose the ability to cast cleric spells as arcane spells which he does NOT have in the first place, and then gain the ability to cast cleric spells as arcane spells from an archetype! (or in your case druid spells for whatever reason). Or he can "reduce" his racial hitdie to D10 (since he is a character, he doesn't have a racial hitdie anyway) and gain +2 sorcerer caster level in exchange.
That's just pure cheese.

The difference is, quite simply, that i am trying to build a flavorful character - while you have completely forgone the flavor of this RAR just to be more powerful. I realize that it was tounge-in-cheek, so this rant isn't so much directed against you, but people with an attitude like that are the ones that give min-maxers a bad name, so i am pretty pissed at that concept in general.

Yah, the dragonwrought interactions with other things was clearly a lack of communications between writers (you would have thought they would have learned their lesson with polymorph) and the use of them is very much dependent upon what other kinds of RAW abusages will be present in the game.

As for flavorfulness of character, I actually did go through and justify every choice to be a personal reflection of myself. Wizard because I like to read a lot, Rainbow Servant because I do have an interest in religion to a degree, the Bard and Sublime Chord because I like music but since I am mild tone deaf I lack a lot of basic and midrange skills thus the spell level gap. Mindbender because I think it would be cool to talk with my thoughts. And Child of Ebberon because I have used numerous "herbal substances" like any self-respecting druid . If I was just going for power I would do something like Wizard/Ardent/UrPriest/Sublime Chord/Cerebromancer/Mystic Theurge/Ultimate Magus and have ridiculous casting ability. Honestly, it was a pretty fun couple of hour diversion for me to make up the character sheet that I did and got to read through a lot of classes I haven't read in a while. That character would actually be a pretty fun character to play in a level 15 or so game.

You shouldn't have ruined the joke so fast though Fina. I was kinda playing off the fact that while Dragons are generally under CRed for their power their spellcasting ability is a bit under their CR compared to Outsiders and Aberrations. I was messing around and seeing how fast someone would notice that the lowly Kobold was by far the most powerful character excepting any Epic Dragon admins.

A side note, the thing a lot of people don't realize is that optimizers tend to hate power gamers even more than normal players because optimizers don't just know that something is cheesy but know why mechanically it is cheesy. The other funny thing is that many optimizers tend to like the underpowered classes. I would really like to get to play a bard sometime in a game that actually goes somewhere. I think singing enemies to death is hilarious and you get to do all kinds of fun roleplaying stuff. Personally, I build characters that are high-op for combat because I don't really like combat and would rather just beat Team Monster quickly and get back to intrigue. While I enjoy the tactical elements of battle, the resolution mechanics really bore me so I would rather trivialize those mechanics than actually be forced to use them. Hell, I really like playing the healbot and usually ran my old groups Healer DMPC.

Very well. Hellion may choose between Wyrmling White and being plopped into Lord Wong's Dungeon-Demiplane, or Mature Adult Kobold 1HD.

I would like to request that since a Supermod once admitted he didn't know my title was a negative one that I be treated as a normal poster of my post-count. The Kobold was a joke (and actually a very interesting experiment in seeing what one can do without using class abilities). I think I would like to be a Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis, I find the idea of being a dragon who simply watches the world without condemning or condoning. Since we all know Q likes a good joke could I get a second go and make an interesting dragon in the vein of Fina's methods?

[Serafina]

Okay, so assuming that Forgothrax would also allow my homebrewn Sovereign Archetype, here is what the new me would look like:

Female Adult Fire-souled Song Dragon, Seeker of the Song 3
CR 17
Large Dragon (Air, Fire)
Hit Dice: 20D12+3D6+69
Armor Class: 28 (-1 size, +19 natural)
Movement: 40 ft., fly 150 feet (average)
Initiative: +0
Base Attack/Grapple: 25/
Attacks: Bite +25 (2D6+4), 2 Claws +20 (1D8+4), Wing +20 (1D6+2), Tail Slap +20 (1D8+6)
Ability Scores: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 26
Damage Reduction: 5/Magic
Immunities: Electricity, Fire, Sleep, Paralysis
Vulnerabilities: Cold
Spell Resistance: 23
Saving Throws: +16/13/20
Skills: (6+5)x23+(4+5)x3=280
Bluff 26, Disguise 26, Diplomacy 26, Gather Information 26, Intimidate 13, Knowledge (Arcana 13, History 8, Nature , Listen 26, Perform (Song) 26 (+5), Search 13, Sense Motive 26, Spot 26, Spellcraft 13
Skill Tricks: Distracting Taunt, Rhetorical Flourish
Feats: (23/3=7, +1=8) Skill Focus (Perform), Draconic Knowledge, Melodic Casting, Words of Creation, Dragonsong, Chaos Music, Dragonfire Inspiration, Leadership
Voice of the Dragon: Can not cast Cleric or Domain spells. Adds Bluff, Diplomacy and Perform to class skills. Can use Bardic Music as a Bard of level equal to caster level. Can cast Bard spells.
Blindsense (Ex): 60 feet
Keen Senses (Ex): sees four times as well in shadows, twice a well in normal light, darkvision 120 feet
Breath Weapon (Su): 12D6 (23)
Frightful Presence (Ex): DC 26, 180 feet
Overwhelming Passion: DC 28, 11/day
True Seeing (Su): True Seeing/15 feet
Tounges (Su): speaks all languages
Inspiring (Su): +1 morale to attack/skill, +2 morale against charm/fear to all allies in 10 feet
Unshakable (Ex): Immune to Stun/Daze
Alternate Form (Su): Up to 3 forms, as often as i want
Draconic Aura (Su): Presence: +1 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate to all allies in 30 feet
Rapture of the Song (Su): Gain +2 AC while using Bardic or Seeker Music
Combine Songs (Ex): Can use two Bardic Music/Seeker Music at the same time, can start both with the same standard action.
Bardic Music: 14 times per day
Countersong (Su), Fascinate (Sp), Inspire Courage +2 (Su), Inspire Competence (Su), Suggestion (Sp, DC 26), Inspire Greatness (Su), Song of Freedom (Su)
Seeker Music: Burning Melody, Burning Melody (Refrain), Song of Unmaking, Dirge of Frozen Loss, Dirge of Frozen Loss (Refrain)
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/Hour: Light, Darkness; 2/day: Blink, Featherfall; 1/day: Teleport, Haste
Caster Level 7th
Spell Level 0/1/2/3
Spells/day 6/8/7/6
known 7/5/3/2

Spells Known:
Spells Known:
0th: Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Predistigation, Fleeting Fame, Minor Disguise, Daze
1st: Charm Person, Empathy, Harmony, Disguise Self, Strength of the True Form
2nd: Invisibility, Insidious Insight, Locate Object
3rd: Cure Serious Wounds, Lesser Geas


So, that would change me in the following way:
- I can no longer grant feats or boost metamagic with my magical music.
- I loose a caster level, loosing my 4th-level spells
- I gain the ability to cast Bard spells (most of them overlap with sorcerer spells anyway).
- I loose some skill points, but i also free up one feat.
- I gain +2 AC while using Bardic music and the ability to maintain two bardic music abilities at the same time. I gain one additional use of Bardic Music per day
- I gain three types of Seeker Music. They allow me to:
-Grant myself and allies within 30 feet 15 resistance against fire or frost
-Inflict 3D8 damage upon constructs without a save by expending a use of bardic music
-Expend a use of bardic music while using a resistance-granting song as a swift action to launch either
-a 30-foot cone of 6D6 fire damage with a DC of 36
-or a 60-foot line of 10D6 cold damage and inflicting fatigue, with a DC of 36


So now i can breathe fire and ice by singing! (the entry states that those originate from the fingertips, but that's fluff and breathing it is much cooler).
With one additional level i'd also grant myself +2 to saves and be able to heal people by the result of a perform check by singing, with two levels i can start bardic music as a swift action and breathe lightning (which i can do already anyway).
I also no longer have to rely on a somewhat cheesy prestige class to get meaningful bardic music abilities.

[LaCroix]

Sorry, my reference didn't say that the prismatic was epic...

The new me, pending confirmation by Q. Since a Green and his alignment doesn't fit to any class (because either "no lawful" or "no evil" requirements), I stuck to the PRC Assassin, as I can very much see any Green in that role, given their description.

Young adult Green Assassin
(Lawful evil, as they all are)

Size: Large
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Hit Dice: 17d12+68
AC: 25 (–1 size, +16 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 25
Movement: 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 40 ft
Initiative: +0 (+4 after Feats)
Base Attack/ Grapple: +17/+27
Attack: Bite +22 (2D6+6), 2 Claws +17 (1D8+3), Wing +17 (1D6+3), Tail Slap +17 (1D8+9)

Ability Scores: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Spell Resistance: 19
Saving throws: +14/12(Assassin is +2)/12
Breath Weapon: 10d6 - cone of corrosive (acid) gas. (40ft)
Frightful Presence: 20
Damage Reduction: 5/magic

Spell-Like Abilities:
Water Breathing ( Ex ): A green dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon , spells , and other abilities while submerged.
Immunity to acid.

Traits:
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Proficient with its natural weapons.
(Asassin PRC) Proficient with Assassin weapons.
Proficient with no armor.(Light Armor as Assassin)

Human Forms:
Me
Generic Male (Changed ever so often)
Generic Female (Changed ever so often)

Caster Level: 3th

Spells per day: 6/5, the Cha Bonus gives me 0/1/1, so I end up with 6/6/1 (Which does so much good as I don't even know a 2nd level spell, yet. Anyway, a slot is a slot is a slot.)
The Assassin gives me additional 0/1/1 over the Int Bonus - but these have an Int DC instead of Char.

Spells Known: 5/3
lvl0: Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Mending, Detect Magic
Lvl1: Comprehend Languages, Magic Missile, Charm Person
At least I don't have to prepare spells ahead of time...

The Assassin gives me two more spells known out of their list, I take
Disguise Self (lvl1), Sleep (lvl1)

Skills: (I believe I get skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) x ( Hit Dice + 3) -> 160)
all class skills:
Hide 10, Move Silently 10, Disguise 5, Knowledge[arcana]10, Spellcraft 10, Sense Motive 10, Intimidate 10, Bluff 10,
Diplomacy 10, Concentration 10, Search 10, Listen 15, Spot 15, Use Magic Device 10, Survival 5, Profession(Computers)5
Slight of Hand 5

Feats: 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice -> 6
Hover, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Eschew Materials, Brew Potion, Scribe Scroll

Feats due to Assassin:
Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use

He's young, but he'll learn... ( I think it's ok for a first try with D&D character creation.)

[Serafina]

That's one case where adding an Archetype would probably benefit you quite a bit.
Adding Stalking Wyrm would give you one favored enemy, at the cost of no longer being able to cast Cleric-spells (and you don't have any selected anyway). That's +2 to damage, Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival, and you could select humans just fine. You would also gain the Track feat, allowing you to, well, track stuff using survival.
Adding Wyrm of War would be much more powerful: You'd gain 4 additional feats and proficiency with all martial weapons and armor. Alternatively you could select Tiger Claw Maneuvers in exchange for Sorcerer spell slots (which is less powerful, but more stylish IMO, especially for an Assassin, though Shadow Hand would be even better).


Assuming that you can take Shadow Hand Maneuvers, you could learn to do the following:
Child of Shadow Stance (costs you a 1st-level spellslot): Gain concealment whenever you move more than 10 feet, which makes you much harder to target (opponents have a 20% chance to miss you).
Cloak of Deception (costs a 2nd level spellslot): You can make yourself invisible, as per the Greater Invisibility spell, for one round.
Both would be very useful for an Assassin, and suit your character just fine. You would constantly benefit from your Stance, and you could use Cloak of Deception once per encounter.

[Simon_Jester]

Bear in mind Lady, that many such RAR's have the house rule of "Only those participating in the thread get to participate."
This helps cuts down on us worrying or trying to plan for the actions of hundreds of bored members who will have not a freaking clue of what is going on.

In this case, though, it totally changes the dynamic. There only seem to be about five to ten people who care enough to follow this thread and work out "what kind of dragon am I" and stuff like that in detail. Does that mean that if this RAR 'really happened,' we'd only have five to ten dragons in the world to deal with, instead of thousands?

It's a big difference.

[Ahriman238]

Bear in mind Lady, that many such RAR's have the house rule of "Only those participating in the thread get to participate."
This helps cuts down on us worrying or trying to plan for the actions of hundreds of bored members who will have not a freaking clue of what is going on.

In this case, though, it totally changes the dynamic. There only seem to be about five to ten people who care enough to follow this thread and work out "what kind of dragon am I" and stuff like that in detail. Does that mean that if this RAR 'really happened,' we'd only have five to ten dragons in the world to deal with, instead of thousands?

It's a big difference.

Well, there's you, me, Connor, Crossroads, Nitram, Lady Tev, Kuja, Purple, OmegaChief, Batman, Isolder, phred, Majin, Chewie, MadD0ctor, Lusankya, Bear, Starglider, Bakustra, Zixie, Rossum, Solauren, Scottish Ninja, White Haven, Imperial 528, Serafina, Formless, DudeGuyMan, Beowulf, Stas, Jaevric, Sorchus, bliateralrope, Siege, Eulogy, and WesFox.

So just under forty. That would be a big change from the 1500-2000 we're expecting if everyone becomes a dragon. For starters, it just about instantly makes all the doomsday population scenarios more likely.

Also, I accept there are good reasons for a DM not to have a character. But these rarely apply to threads. Forg has shown he can be both 'Q' and someone distinct from Q, but while he's given suggestions he hasn't picked a dragon yet or said what he personally would do.

Should be interesting, Forg:

Q changes you into a Young-Aged Black or Brass dragon, your choice. You become aware of a small cave (aprox 50 feet in length and barely wide enough to fit your dragon form) in your back yard or under the parking lot. Anyone can see it. It is filled with approximately $100,000 of treasure. The entrance is covered with dirt (or asphalt, if you live in an apartment) that vanishes when you move within about 50 feet with the intent to enter and reappears when you will it to do so. It contains quarters fitted for 21st century luxury for yourself in human form and one other person comfortably, with two homunuculi that exist primarily to serve you and appear however you desire them. They are perfect cooks, butlers, and all-around servants. They are also capable, fully equipped (any reasonable combination of small and crew-served as well as anti-vehicle weapons) soldiers who require a direct-hit frag grenade (or equivalent) to disable and are the as good as one of the top 1% of US Marines in skill. They answer to you and to any you direct.

I understand if you want class levels, a demiplane, or to switch dragon types you can negotiate. Expect mockery if Q gives you a noticeably lighter deal than the rest of us.

[Jaevric]

To be honest, this is one of the few RARs I've actually found interesting and I keep thinking about participating but I haven't kept up with pen and paper D&D in almost a decade -- I just don't have the reference material anymore to really participate meaningfully, and as a low-post-count "young brass dragon" I feel don't have a lot of wriggle room with my character unless I want to end up as a wyrmling (I don't. Puberty once as a human was enough, puberty as a dragon? I'll pass.)

Obviously I should have prepared better and padded my post count.

[LaCroix]

That's one case where adding an Archetype would probably benefit you quite a bit.
Adding Stalking Wyrm would give you one favored enemy, at the cost of no longer being able to cast Cleric-spells (and you don't have any selected anyway). That's +2 to damage, Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival, and you could select humans just fine. You would also gain the Track feat, allowing you to, well, track stuff using survival.
Adding Wyrm of War would be much more powerful: You'd gain 4 additional feats and proficiency with all martial weapons and armor. Alternatively you could select Tiger Claw Maneuvers in exchange for Sorcerer spell slots (which is less powerful, but more stylish IMO, especially for an Assassin, though Shadow Hand would be even better).


Assuming that you can take Shadow Hand Maneuvers, you could learn to do the following:
Child of Shadow Stance (costs you a 1st-level spellslot): Gain concealment whenever you move more than 10 feet, which makes you much harder to target (opponents have a 20% chance to miss you).
Cloak of Deception (costs a 2nd level spellslot): You can make yourself invisible, as per the Greater Invisibility spell, for one round.
Both would be very useful for an Assassin, and suit your character just fine. You would constantly benefit from your Stance, and you could use Cloak of Deception once per encounter.

Well, that stuff certainly wasn't in the online References I used...

If Q is alright with that, I'd like to add the Wyrm of War with the Shadow Hand Maneuvers.
I'd use Improved initiative (remove it from the general dragon feats), Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave as War Wyrm feats, and add Track as general dragon feat.

I'd be a hatchet man for a Wyrm/Great Wyrm, using them as protection against stronger enemies, just like any Green would do. As Lawful Evil characters, they don't mind hierarchies, lack scruples, but have principles (various sets, depending on circumstances ).

[Solauren]

Perhaps we should have our GM clarify that, or at least give us some generic actions for the board members who arn't here for us to toy with perhaps?

As for myself, I'm nowhere near familair enough with DnD in general, never mind 3.5 ed and it's infamous sixteen million source books, so I guess I'll just stick with my generic brass dragon powers.

Actually, at least count, it was only about 8400 source books.
(I cant' find those missing 200 either, damn it).

[Solauren]

A question for Q:

The 'Turn into Dragon' spell you house ruled in (for lack of a better term), is there any limit to how many we can create with that each?

i.e Family members, close friends, hot female actresses I seduce using my high Cha and Diplomacy ranks, rich people in exchange for monteray consideration, etc.