I think one of the big weaknesses of the wizarding world, their Muggle-myopia aside, is their dependence on wands. Take their wands away and they can basically do nothing unless they've got either lots of power or specialized education in how to cast spells without wands; the only one we see doing this is Dumbledore, IIRC. Unfortunately, it's kind of hard to separate wizards from their wands for the most part...

Yet they can see Dementors, strange.

The books are non-committal on that. Its strongly suggested that Figg is bullshitting in that scene.

Rowling actually confirmed that Figg was bullshitting:

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"You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean that tin is worthless."
-Jon Snow, A Game of Thrones

"I prefer my history dead. The dead sort is written in ink, the living in blood."
-Rodrik Greyjoy, A Song of Ice and Fire

There is some indication of magic power growing over time, at least until maturity is reached. This is an explicit loophole that Dumbledore hoped to exploit to smuggle Harry past the defenses that Voldemort might have cast around the locket horcrux.

“Voldemort would have been reasonably confident that none but a very great wizard would have been able to find the boat,” said Dumbledore. “I think he would have been prepared to risk what was, to his mind, the most unlikely possibility that somebody else would find it, knowing that he had set other obstacles ahead that only he would be able to penetrate. We shall see whether he was right.”
Harry looked down into the boat. It really was very small.
“It doesn’t look like it was built for two people. Will it hold both of us? Will we be too heavy together?”
Dumbledore chuckled.
“Voldemort will not have cared about the weight, but about the amount of magical power that crossed his lake. I rather think an enchantment will have been placed upon this boat so that only one wizard at a time will be able to sail in it.”
“But then—?”
“I do not think you will count, Harry: You are underage and unqualified. Voldemort would never have expected a sixteen-year-old to reach this place: I think it unlikely that your powers will register compared to mine.”

I understand that your point is Harry being praised/encouraged and Neville being mocked/disparaged = Harry being better than Neville, but it kinda falls flat in the wider sense. Harry was a mental midget and magical retard when you compare him to his father and his group of friends, what they did with magic at his age.

And then you move him up to the Dumbledore/Voldemort 'circle/level' for comparison, he is practically a squib.

Confidence does breed more success, true, but some people are just better.

---

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Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'

Is he? Aside from the Animagus transformations (which took them a long time to get right), what magical skill did James & Friends show at Harry's age that Harry falls short in? The Marauder's Map?



Both Voldemort and Dumbledore can be chocked up to greater experience and general intelligence in my opinion. Both of them probably were more like Hermione in learning magic (lots of studying and practice), whereas Ron and Harry generally spend a lot more time screwing around and playing Quidditch when they don't have to do homework.

---

"You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean that tin is worthless."
-Jon Snow, A Game of Thrones

"I prefer my history dead. The dead sort is written in ink, the living in blood."
-Rodrik Greyjoy, A Song of Ice and Fire

I agree on the experience and learning aspect, it makes a huge difference, although I would still think that there is such a thing as inherent skill; witness Harry's flying skills or his exceptionally powerful Patronus.

However, we do have Hermione stating that there is more to being a wizard than books and cleverness in book/film 1.

---

You are standing on a 4.5 billion year old complex, self-sustaining organic spacship, which is orbiting a power source a million times larger than your ship. There are 200 billion other power sources, many of them with ships like yours, in your fleet. There are 40 other fleets in the immediate neighbourhood and your entire neighbourhood is moving at two million miles per hour towards an object 150 million light years away. Welcome to life, it's a lot more exciting when you think on larger scales.

They were top in their classes while barely trying. Hermione without the effort (though she could probably do virtually as well with much less effort, too). Snape was even better than them, probably being third after Voldemort and Dumbledore in the present.


It came easily to them, though. Ron and Harry are both mediocre in their classes. Harry got one O in DADA and Ron got none. And Neville isn't any better than them, and I can't see Dean and Seamus much better, either, or Lavender or Parvati... Gryffindor seems like the dumb jock House, really.

Sure the map, the mirrors (the ones that Sirius gave to Harry), and if we include Snape into that 'level' if you like your own spells and incantations. I don't understand why you're begging the question here, any one of the above already trumps anything Harry has ever done at the same age, let alone all of them.



I agree with both points. That is my point; both Dumbledore and Voldemort had a greater natural affinity than Harry, and obviously both had a much greater scholastic curiosity. Harry truly is a dumbass compared to them, Snape had him pegged completely mediocre (and that was JKRs point in the end).

And I'm referring to Dumbledore and Voldemort when they were in Hogwarts by the way, not what they achieved later so the 'greater experience' bit doesn't actually come into play. Voldemort had already created to Horcruxes at this point, and had cursed them (or at least the diary).

---

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Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'

Not only did he create the diary he:
-placed it in a secret room no one had been able to find for hundreds of years
-got a bassilisk to obey him
-do this without detection

It is worth reiterating that the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets is in the girls bathroom- he could not have found it on accident riding on the abilities of the Heir to Slytherin. The sad thing is he could have gotten a ton of fame for revealing the location and existance of the chamber, but instead he decided to insure his immortality through murder. There were other options open (like potentially the Philosophers Stone), but he choose the easiest and safest.

Harry is good at a lot. Patronuses have already been raised- various characters note that this is really advanced. He was also able to use the Imperius and Cruciatus curses in book 7 (but apparently Crabbe could use Unforgiveables too, so its probably more a question of power and/or mindset than intelligence or skill). Flying has been mentioned as well, and he was able to resist an Imperius Curse at 14. He's also pretty damn good at dueling for someone his age. And once he gets Snape's old textbook, he starts doing well in Potions.

For that matter, what do we know the Maurauders pulled off besides being Animagus? Sure, that's impressive, but do we know of anything else of note they pulled off to put them on such an intellectual pedestal?

And Gryfindores in general aren't dumb. In addition to the Marauders and Lily (and wasn't Dumbledore a Gryfindore back in the day?), we have Hermione, and Harry isn't nearly as inept as you make him out to be. Plus through the DA he taught a bunch of his fellow Grydindores Patronuses, right? And then there's Fred and George, who are pulling off complex charms for pranks without ever having finished year seven.

Edit: regarding the Marauders, source for them being so good at school.

This is astounding where you bring up the HBP and his potion book without realising that this actually undermines your defence of Harry, rather than being a plus it's a negative (more of that later).



The map, the mirrors and don't be glib about being animagi, they did it while underage and in secret when we are lead to believe the majority of wizarding adults cannot do it at all, and those that do are registered by the MoM.



Again, mentioning Fred & George, the Marauders and Lily and Dumbledore just emphasises the mediocrity of one Harry James Potter. I'd stop if I were you (more on that later)



Err the books? Both Sirius and Remus when discussing James to Harry mention how brilliant James was, without even trying.

Now, to the point; you mention things that Harry is good at doing (Patronus for example) and while I agree that he does have power/ability/aptitude that is not what we are disagreeing on. When I refer to Harry as a dumbass when you compare him to the Marauders & Lily, Snape, Fred & George and a squib compared to Dumbledore and Voldemort, I'm not discussing his ability to be okay at pulling off some spells, I'm talking about his complete lack of scholastic curiousity, and that with the very notable exception of Wand Lore in the last book; Harry's understanding and application of Magic is completely superficial!

He is that kid who can pass his exams by remembering V = d/t and a = d/t^2, but not truly understanding any of the concepts behind them. He can't derive the later from the former for example.

The aforementioned people were demonstrating a far greater grasp of understanding of magic and being able to manipulate it. We can take two clear examples; Snape and his old potion book and the Weasley twins.

Snape had such a great understanding of potions; he amended the recommended text in order to achieve a higher rate of success in mixing his potions. We see Harry following (note, just following) his work and also achieving far greater success than he ever did previously. And we also see Hermione getting pissy because he's not 'doing what the text book says'! A more clear example of actually not understanding the concepts behind what they're trying to achieve and only getting by on wrote memorisation and application I cannot think of.

And the we have the Weasley twins; while scholastically the class clowns and hardly the model students, their shenanigans at the end of OotP has actually impressed their now former teachers; the swamp spell that Flitwick didn't totally dispell because he thought it was an 'impressive piece of magic' and then in the HBP their joke shop with what might be termed as 'novelty' and 'gag' items are even commented on by Hermione as, again, 'good pieces of magic'. The twins are able to take the magical lessons in (or not depending on how you view their OWL scores), and demonstrate a high rate of application and understanding.

Again, with the very notable exception of Harry and Wand Lore in DH, Harry never even comes close to demonstrating any kind of magical nous. He's just a kind who comes into school and does just enough to pass the class and that's it.

---

~+::My Photo Gallery::+~
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'

Harry mediocre? Ok, he's not epically powerful and talented like Dumbledore or Voldemort but he's no slouch. He got an O in DADA and and E in most other subjects. That's 'Exceed Expectation' i.e better than wizard average. The only one's he mucked up were Divination (useless non-subject) Astronomy (exam disrupted by ministery attack on Hagrid) and History of Magic (didn't finish exam owing to mental attack)

As to his father's acheivement. Only the animagus is that impressive and that took them years and years. I don't think it was ever stated the mirrors were created by the marauders. And we have no idea how difficult a piece of magic that is.

Why hasn't Harry done that? We maybe because he was forced to intensively study DADA for the sake of his own survival from book 3 onwards. Necessity forced him to excel at that. He did master the patronus charm (a feat of magic also stated to be something fully grown wizards have trouble with) in less than a year.

And comparing Harry to DD and Voldemort? That's like saying you can't be good at physics unless you equal Albert Einstein.

Don't be a prat, you've done nothing to refute the argument that I've put forward; Harry demonstrates nothing but a superficial understanding of Magic and lacks any greater insight it to the why and how of the craft than the Marauders & Lily, Snape, the Weasley twins and yes, if you compare him to Dumbledore and Voldemort it gets even worse.

Don't like it? Tough, take it up with Rowling who specifically wrote him as mediocre.

---

~+::My Photo Gallery::+~
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'

Yes, I did address your argument; Harry does not have the same understanding of magical theory as these others. That doesn't make him a mediocre wizard. ie. Substandard.

It is repeatedly shown that Harry has faced and overcome problems that grown wizards would fail at it. If he lacks understanding of theory it was because as I said, he was training himself in more practical aspects of magic.

Let's tally accomplishments shall we?

The marauders:

• Became Animagi
• Created a map
• Pissed about alot as animals
• Were Bullying shitstains.

While Harry and Co.

• Broke through a series of magical defenses to get to the philospher's stone/
• Found the chamber of secrets and killed the bassilisk in side.
• Learnt the patronus charm well enough the hold off hundreds of a dementors which is considered more advanced defense magic that would be learnt at school.
• Won the Triwizard Tournment. Escaped from the clutches of dozens of dark wizards.
• Trained themselves extensively in Defense magic. Broke into the ministry of magic.
• Gained above average grades in all practical subjects.
• Hunted down and destroyed all Voldemort's horcruxes.

So yeah. Harry may not have created any magical trinkets. He was too busy saving the world. He's not as good as Dumbledore or Voldemort. And yes he's not supposed to be a genius. He can't however be considered a 'mediocre wizard' in absolute terms.

In summary: As Hermione said, there's more to being a wizard than books and cleverness. The Marauder's had that in spades. What they lacked was Harry's ability to actually get shit done.

Crown, I'll concede I should have given the Marauders more credit. But my points that Harry is fairly capable and that Gryfindores in general aren't dumb (which were I think addressed more to Eframepilot than you) still stand.

No, Harry doesn't understand all the nuances of magical theory. He isn't an inventor. That does not make him an idiot, or mediocre. It is possible that I misinterpreted the argument due to carelessness on my part, and if so, I apologize. But I am not trying to argue that Harry is a brilliant innovator- merely that he is a reasonably intelligent and capable wizard, not some incompetent idiot. He is very, very good at quite a lot of things.

...



And;



Oh, and;



Pretty sure I'm making a specific comparison of Harry and certain people and using that as a the relative scale of his mediocrity and not discussing him in 'absolute terms'. So like said earlier; stop pushing over your strawmen and look at what I'm actually talking about, mm k?

You brush off creating 'magical trinkets' as minor accomplishment, when it is the essence of demonstrating a practical understanding of magic and how to manipulate it in a context outside of what you're taught from a book that makes it impressive. Again; Harry is good at using V=d/t and a=d/t^2, but he has never demonstrated any more than a superficial understanding of the concepts involved.

And as for this part;



Are you day tripping? Training himself? In HBP, where, if anywhere, was Harry 'training himself'? He was obsessing over Quidditch, over girls, for the whole book! Training himself, don't make me laugh. Have a word with yourself.



Using a spell Hermione taught him from The Standard Book of Spells, grade one, where it is described in chapter seven ... kinda think that someone might have wanted Harry to get in, eh?



And, he didn't do this due to any kind of magical aptitude (except of course that which was gifted to him by Voldemort).



Act of plot; Harry nearly died until his 'father saved him', until he goes back in time and realises he has to do it, and thus knowing he already can, he does.



Fixed that for you mate.



Good example, pretty much the only thing that didn't make me give up on him. Pitty he's just regurgitating information from books though.



I never claimed that he was horrible at repeating and regurgitating wrote memorisation, did I?



Being aided all the while.

---

~+::My Photo Gallery::+~
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'

I should add, Crown, that despite your claiming that this is just about Harry not knowing how magic works or whatever, you've gone far beyond that to basically trying to bash and diminish the character across the board. You're more or less taking everything he accomplished and saying "He didn't do it entirely on his own so it doesn't count." It comes across as you just not liking the character and having an agenda of bashing Harry.

As for Harry not training... no, in Half-Blood Prince, he didn't. You are evidently forgetting:

a) learning Patronuses from Lupin in book three.

b) learning various things to use in the Triwizard Tournament in book four.

But nitpick one book that supports your case and ignore the ones that don't.

Fair play mate, my point is that he is mediocre when compared to alumni like; The Marauders & Lily, Snape and the Weasley twins, and practically a squib when compared to Dumbledore and Voldemort.

It became patently clear to me by the end of the 4th/5th book that if Harry was gonna defeat Voldemort he would either need a vast change in characterisation in the next books, or would do so due to act of plot (lol wand lore). His understanding of magic by this stage was already lacking and by HBP it was clear that Voldemort was years and years ahead of him at the same age, it was a rather obvious chasm of understanding the wider magical principals.

If people want to discuss Harry in the wider wizarding world context, then yeah above average in understanding, and pretty fucking great at application of magic, that's a fair comment. But when you compare him to the aforementioned he falls flat on his face pretty hard.



But he didn't, in fact in many of those examples; he was being aided by either Dumbledore, Snape or Voldemort and his Death Eaters for their own purposes.



He received intensive private tutelage from a teacher who did everything he could to help Harry ... wow, what an achievement.



Yes, he learned Accio when he was in fourth grade ... when it was taught to fourth graders ... after extensive coaching from his friend who did everything she could to help Harry ... At what point, are you going to realise that in the very book it's spelled out that Harry got as far as he did in that tournament because it was Voldemort's will that he did so? You know, it is even said so, in the book, exactly like that, by Barty Crouch Jnr.



Blow me; he failed at Occlumency, he failed at silent casting in HBP and I've already addressed your other points above.

---

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Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'

Except in many areas he's not mediocre. He's an excellent flyer, excellent at DADA, and has some pretty impressive willpower and balls for someone his age. That is not mediocrity.



So you acknowledge that Harry is good compared to most wizards?



Is anyone who's had help from their friends a mediocre looser now? Strange world view you have their.



So if you have a competent tutor, your accomplishments no longer count? That's a rather odd philosophy. Do you actually believe in these impossibly high standards for determining someone's ability, or are you just being a dishonest little shit?



Didn't he learn a whole bunch of defensive spells in book four, like Stunners?

But if he had a teacher, I suppose you'll tell me it doesn't count.



Go fuck yourself.



Yeah, he failed at a couple quite difficult things. He also succeeded at a whole bunch of others.

Again, go fuck yourself.

Ok, that's more like what I would considered accurate.

The thing about comparing him to the mauraders or the twin is it that they're 'just better' or is that they just have a different skill set. Fred & George after all still needed Harry to train them in defense.

Except in the areas I've specifically been discussing in - oh let me see - all my fucking posts in this thread, he is. He demonstrates no greater understanding of magic, and magical principals than being able to regurgitate what he's grinded away at learning, unlike all the other examples at his age. So yeah, he is mediocre.



I've never denied it you thick fuck. Reading and comprehension, try it.



Not at all, when one of the examples is the Triwizard Tournament. If you need it to be explained to you (again) how using an instance where the fucking villain is stacking the fucking deck in order for Harry to succeed in an event you're trying to use as a bench mark as Harry's competence, then there's no fucking hope for you.



Oh, my fucking make-believe deity in the fucking sky. Exactly how retarded are you? I'm specifically talking about and using clear examples of other teenage wizards being able to move beyond what they are taught. Snape at 17, was correcting the recommended text in order to produce better results. He was doing this because he understood the fucking underlining concepts involved.

With the notable exception of wand lore (lol), Harry James Potter never, not once, demonstrates anything more than a superficial understanding of magic. Ever. He is a mediocrity.



See above.



I can you know, it's that big. Some people if they're lucky have a baby's arm holding an apple, mine's more like a baby elephant's trunk. Nothing for you and your bee's dick to concern yourself with mate, like they say 'ocean in the motion' or whatever you small dicked ladyboys tell yourselves to help you get through life.



Like ... a ... ? Fill in the blank, it ain't hard.



Wait, wait. YOU call me a wanker, I tell you to blow me, and then you get angry and tell to go fuck myself;

Show the people on the doll where the mean Crown touched you;

---

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Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'

I think what we have to look at is being able to move beyond the text books, and into the first principles/abstract. It's something that Harry has lacked, completely.

The clearest and easiest analogy that I can use to explain this idea is this; when you first teach a child addition and subtraction most children find it hard to grasp the concept of numbers on their own. We use teaching methods like if Paul had 2 apples and buys 2 more apples, how many apples does Paul have?

Because the abstract concept of 2+2=4 is very hard to grasp.

The other people that we've talked about could grasp this abstract thought process and expand upon their taught knowledge and move beyond it. Maybe in not all areas (with the exception of Dumbledore and Voldemort), but what is clear is that there is no instance of Harry ever doing this until wand lore (lol) and that's more of a case of him knowing something Voldemort didn't; Malfoy 'defeated' Dumbledore, not Snape.

---

~+::My Photo Gallery::+~
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'

Because Voldemort is prepared to do anything short of killing himself for power, unlike Dumbledore who learned that sometimes the fast, easy way is not always the best, and it's better to be weaker and still have your soul, than nigh all-powerful and a monster, like Voldemort.

Voldemort's viewpoint is "There is no such thing as good or evil. There is only power, and those too weak to see it."

Whereas Dumbledore opines "your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness."

Much like Sauron, Voldemort's only real weakness is that he is evil.

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"Our terror has to be indiscriminate, otherwise innocent people will cease to fear"
-Josef Stalin