What was Palpatine's original plan in TPM?

[ronindave]

Gah! The more I think about the Prequel films the more repressed memories of how bad these films were comes back up! Things that originally bugged me but I shoved away under the rug of my brain saying "these films suck! don't think about them!" are now coming back as bits and pieces of the plot start unfraying the more I look at them even more so than before. Redlettermedia's recent reviews did not change my original opinion only reconfirmed them and made me see a number of other glaring flaws that he did not even mention. One thing (or two really)- what was Palpatine's original plan in Phantom Menace and why did he care about the Battle of Naboo once the crisis had served his purpose?

Alright the Phantom Menace - so the whole reason the crisis was created was so that Palpatine could get elected Chancellor and ultimately seize power, right? Even though how he was going to do that originally with the Queen captured and forced to sign a treaty legalizing the invasion is beyond me. The Jedi showing up and rescuing her was obviously not part of his original plan but when she got to Coruscant it almost seemed to be because he got her to suggest a voting for a new Chancellor which we know was his ultimate goal anyway in the film.

What was his original plan if the Jedi had not been there to rescue the Queen and bring her to Coruscant? What if the Trade Federation had succeeded in killing the Jedi? Was he banking on them failing and thus hoping the Jedi would succeed and bring the Queen to Coruscant all along? Was Darth Maul and the blockade ships that couldn't blast them to smithereens just a smokescreen to hide the fact that Palpatine wanted them to reach the Senate? What was he planning on doing if there had never been any Jedi?

A better script of course would have gotten us into the mind of Palpatine and showed us his plans and his reactions to changes but we are expected to make broad assumptions supported by very little actual evidence or read the novelizations written by other writers.

I can understand that a good schemer can and should change his plans when things change and develop but none of that explains why Palpatine should care what happened on Naboo afterwards. He got what he wanted. Forget Naboo: it was time to put the purchase order in for those clones.

Anyway once the Queen does what Palpatine wants her to do in the Senate to advance his nefarious schemes she goes back to Naboo to fight the invasion. During this time offscreen Palpatine gets elected Chancellor. The outcome of the battle as far as I can tell had no bearing on his election so why should he have cared who won or bothered to have sent Darth Maul? This just makes Maul even more pointless than he already was. Palpatine got what he wanted already. If the Trade Federation won, he could have just used his Darth Sidious persona to tell them to leave or as the Chancellor declare the invasion illegal. He had no vested interest in the outcome of the battle since the crisis had served its purpose.

And if the victory of the Naboo was important to his election than why support the federation? Did he just want to get rid of Maul? None of his actions makes sense once the Queen (actually her decoy) made the motion to get the old Chancellor booted out. He didn't need to keep up his Darth Sidious persona since the Trade Fed had no idea who he was. He could have just not answered their calls from then on out.

And Maul, why did he waste time fighting the Jedi? Had he killed them would he have killed the Queen or captured her? And if so, for what purpose? Had the Federation won what difference would it have made? Maul served no purpose in advancing Palpatine's schemes since they had already been advanced by that point!

Again - GAH! It makes no freaking sense! Does anyone else have any idea why he would continue to support the Federation when their victory or defeat would have no effect on his grand plan of becoming Chancellor? Since Naboo won and he became Chancellor anyway, wouldn't a Trade Fed victory been a bit awkward for him?

I figure someone here with their head full of fill-in-the-gaps novelizations and EU could explain why Palpatine cared about Naboo once he got what he wanted or why he would waste Maul on what had become a pointless mission by then or what his original plan was before the Jedi showed up.

[Sea Skimmer]

I figure that the Jedi appearing forced Palpatine to accelerate his plans. The original plan may simply have been to let his home planet fall into Trade Federation hands, and then ‘legal’ or not agitate a campaign of resistance and opposition. The treaty would obviously be under duress and he may have already had a plan or loophole to invalidate it. Its also possible that the power of the DARK SIDE simply told him that getting the trade federation to invade would be enough to make everything fall into place. I don’t think that’s a possibility that should be ruled our or is totally unreasonable, given the whole mystic background of the force giving him and Anakin great power at the same time. Yet another possibility is that Palpatine's original plan did not involve seizing control of the senate at all; and rather he just wanted to keep expanding Trade Federation power until he could use them to launch a general galaxy wide war as occurred later anyway.

[ronindave]

double post

[ronindave]

I figure that the Jedi appearing forced Palpatine to accelerate his plans. The original plan may simply have been to let his home planet fall into Trade Federation hands, and then ‘legal’ or not agitate a campaign of resistance and opposition. The treaty would obviously be under duress and he may have already had a plan or loophole to invalidate it.

Well I could see the original plan using the invasion in the Senate as another way to force a vote against the current Chancellor since we know that blue-horned fellow whispering in his ear was working for Palpatine. Of course this would require the Senate finding out about the crisis which I guess we can (or have to) assume Palpatine would have done at sometime. I still wonder what the Trade Fed were getting out of this deal and why were they following some cloaked nobody?

Anyway - then when the Jedi arrived on coruscant Palpatine decided to change his plan and get the vote of no confidence pushed through sooner. Once that was accomplished he had little reason to care what happened on Naboo. As it was the Naboo won and he became Chancellor. Had it been the other way, what then? What was he planning to do if the Trade Federation won? It seems like really either outcome was no longer important once he got his way in the Senate so I don't see why he bothered sending Darth Maul or why he still issued orders to the Trade Federation.

The whole Naboo issue became a moot point once the old Chancellor was put up for a vote and there was nothing that seem to indicate Palpatine's election hinged on the result of the Naboo battle itself. He had no vested interest as either Sidious or Senator/Chancellor Palpatine in the outcome of the battle since he could anything he wanted regardless of who won. Seems like a waste of a promising apprentice.

Its also possible that the power of the DARK SIDE simply told him that getting the trade federation to invade would be enough to make everything fall into place. I don’t think that’s a possibility that should be ruled our or is totally unreasonable, given the whole mystic background of the force giving him and Anakin great power at the same time.

This makes the Force too much of a "wizard did it!" escape clause for writers to get themselves out of the corner they painted themselves in

[Metahive]

I think TPM shows that there're several fundamental structural problems with the setup of the Republic's political system. Imagine the following: governor Rick Perry comes before the US Senate, says there's something foul in Texas (say Microsoft occupied Austin with its vast mercenary army) and then demands the federal government do something about it. For whatever reason the news of the occupation didn't make the rounds. When the government offers to task a comission with an assessment of the situation he rejects the offer and immediately demands that there be a vote of non-confidence against Obama with the justification that "the federal government is unable to act". Eventually the vote ousts Obama and a few days later senator Texas senator John Cornyn becomes US president.

Does that make sense to you? Well, that's what more or less happens in TPM which makes me wonder how a Republic managed to last that long with a setup that broken and prone to instability.

[ronindave]

Does that make sense to you? Well, that's what more or less happens in TPM which makes me wonder how a Republic managed to last that long with a setup that broken and prone to instability.

Not a bit. I said something similar but with Delaware to drive home how ridiculous the matter was. Really when you think about it: with a badly organized Republic as presented in the film and the gullible easily-fooled Jedi, Palpatine really wasted a lot of mental effort in coming up his his master plan. He's the smartest guy in a galaxy full of morons.

[TC Pilot]

Alright the Phantom Menace - so the whole reason the crisis was created was so that Palpatine could get elected Chancellor and ultimately seize power, right? Even though how he was going to do that originally with the Queen captured and forced to sign a treaty legalizing the invasion is beyond me.

I don't see the reasons behind Palpatine being elected Chancellor changing substantially between his original and revised plans. He gets sympathy for his home planet being invaded either way. Presumably, the original plan was meant merely to provoke a crisis, and the "legalization" of the invasion a farce meant to underscore how badly the Republic needs new leadership.

The Jedi showing up and rescuing her was obviously not part of his original plan but when she got to Coruscant it almost seemed to be because he got her to suggest a voting for a new Chancellor which we know was his ultimate goal anyway in the film.

He improvised.

I can understand that a good schemer can and should change his plans when things change and develop but none of that explains why Palpatine should care what happened on Naboo afterwards. He got what he wanted. Forget Naboo: it was time to put the purchase order in for those clones.

He can't just "forget Naboo." If he makes no public move as Chancellor, he makes himself out to be a callous, oppurtunistic ass. And if he just abandons the Trade Federation as Sidious, they have nothing to lose if they go public with the conspiracy.

The outcome of the battle as far as I can tell had no bearing on his election so why should he have cared who won or bothered to have sent Darth Maul? This just makes Maul even more pointless than he already was. Palpatine got what he wanted already. If the Trade Federation won, he could have just used his Darth Sidious persona to tell them to leave or as the Chancellor declare the invasion illegal. He had no vested interest in the outcome of the battle since the crisis had served its purpose.

You're right. He has no vested interest in who wins the battle. But what makes you think he cared? The outcome is irrelevant; he's Chancellor regardless of who won the battle. But that doesn't mean he doesn't still have to make tangible gestures of support to the Trade Federation to keep them placated. If they win, he can use his support as leverage to get them to back off, and if they lose, he can say that he did what he could but they screwed up.

He's a Sith Lord. He doesn't care whether or not Maul gets killed. If he dies, then he must have been weak and deserved it. If he defeats the Jedi, one more test of strength passed.

And Maul, why did he waste time fighting the Jedi?

Because they're the biggest threats, the ones who can carve a swathe through the droid defense forces. Without the Jedi, the Queen only barely captured Gunray. Imagine how much easier it would have been with them along.

[ronindave]

I don't see the reasons behind Palpatine being elected Chancellor changing substantially between his original and revised plans. He gets sympathy for his home planet being invaded either way. Presumably, the original plan was meant merely to provoke a crisis, and the "legalization" of the invasion a farce meant to underscore how badly the Republic needs new leadership.

Which would have been fine had it been shown or mentioned.

He can't just "forget Naboo." If he makes no public move as Chancellor, he makes himself out to be a callous, oppurtunistic ass.

When I mean forget Naboo, I mean as Darth Sidious. As Chancellor he could order the invasion illegal or promise to look into the matter. When he is directing the Trade Federation in the end, it seems pointless. their victory or defeat won't affect him being Chancellor though their victory would have posed an awkward situation for him. This is a problem with many fights and battles in the Prequels, many of them are often pointless because their consequences don't really matter.

And if he just abandons the Trade Federation as Sidious, they have nothing to lose if they go public with the conspiracy.

And what could the Trade Federation say - "a guy in a cloak told us to do it!"? I don't know why they didn't do that anyway. And I still don't know what the Trade Fed was getting out of all this or why the Trade Fed was in this deal with Darth Sidious all the way up to his demise.

[Metahive]

I don't see the reasons behind Palpatine being elected Chancellor changing substantially between his original and revised plans. He gets sympathy for his home planet being invaded either way. Presumably, the original plan was meant merely to provoke a crisis, and the "legalization" of the invasion a farce meant to underscore how badly the Republic needs new leadership.

OK, somebody gotta' explain how "His homeplanet got invaded" translates to "That guy is presidential (chancellorial?) material", that just doesn't make much sense if you think about it. Imagine senator X stumbles into the US senate and claims that he just got raped. Would you immediately think "Boy, that guy's got to be president!"?

[lord Martiya]

I still wonder what the Trade Fed were getting out of this deal and why were they following some cloaked nobody?

I think you missed something: they were scared shitless by Sidious being a Sith. I'd have to look on Wookiepedia to know what they were getting out of the deal, but refusing or backing out of it was certain death for the leaders. Enough to obey him.

[Metahive]

Palpatine can't actually afford to off Gunray by then, that would cost him the control over the Trade Federation seeing as he specifcally propped that guy up to run it, he would also be in danger of tipping his hand too early with such a radical action, yeah, Gunray could even threaten Sidious back with the prospect of turning the records of their communications over to the Jedi if the Sith gets too demanding.

Really, Sidious had really not that much leverage to cow the mighty TF into going on self-destructive and unproductive adventures.

[ronindave]

I still wonder what the Trade Fed were getting out of this deal and why were they following some cloaked nobody?

I think you missed something: they were scared shitless by Sidious being a Sith. I'd have to look on Wookiepedia to know what they were getting out of the deal, but refusing or backing out of it was certain death for the leaders. Enough to obey him.

You shouldn't have to look anywhere but the film to understand a character's motivation. Did they know Sidious was a Sith? They reacted with surprise when they heard him mention the name Sith and his apprentice. I don't think they knew he was one up to that moment. But that's not much of a motivation - they are scared of some guy in a hologram? Wouldn't they rat on him once everything fell thru?

[TC Pilot]

Which would have been fine had it been shown or mentioned.

I don't see how this matters. The (ostensibly) poor quality of the storytelling in TPM isn't really the subject of this thread, it's "what was Palpatine's plan?" This is simply what I'm suggesting we can infer from the fact that no plan was explicitely given.

When I mean forget Naboo, I mean as Darth Sidious. As Chancellor he could order the invasion illegal or promise to look into the matter. When he is directing the Trade Federation in the end, it seems pointless. their victory or defeat won't affect him being Chancellor though their victory would have posed an awkward situation for him. This is a problem with many fights and battles in the Prequels, many of them are often pointless because their consequences don't really matter.

That's right, they don't. Sucks that the villain controls the system, doesn't it?

They're pawns, nothing more.

And what could the Trade Federation say - "a guy in a cloak told us to do it!"? I don't know why they didn't do that anyway. And I still don't know what the Trade Fed was getting out of all this or why the Trade Fed was in this deal with Darth Sidious all the way up to his demise.

Taking only from TPM, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine they have records of those transmissions with Sidious. The Jedi would probably be interested to know that the guy's a Sith. Ditching the Trade Federation gets Sidious nothing, while continuing to help them offers potential benefits. In the end, all he lost was an apprentice, something we know from the OT Palpatine's not exactly too concerned about.

As for what the Trade Federation had to gain? Maybe money? There's that whole dispute over "the taxation of trade routes" mentioned in the opening crawl.

OK, somebody gotta' explain how "His homeplanet got invaded" translates to "That guy is presidential (chancellorial?) material", that just doesn't make much sense if you think about it. Imagine senator X stumbles into the US senate and claims that he just got raped. Would you immediately think "Boy, that guy's got to be president!"?

It's no less reasonable than a victorious general being elected president. Plus, having been the impetus behind ousting the unpopular Valorum certainly was a bonus. Regardless, it's what the movie tells us, though the EU adds more to it than just that.

[Dooey Jo]

I don't see the reasons behind Palpatine being elected Chancellor changing substantially between his original and revised plans. He gets sympathy for his home planet being invaded either way. Presumably, the original plan was meant merely to provoke a crisis, and the "legalization" of the invasion a farce meant to underscore how badly the Republic needs new leadership.

OK, somebody gotta' explain how "His homeplanet got invaded" translates to "That guy is presidential (chancellorial?) material", that just doesn't make much sense if you think about it. Imagine senator X stumbles into the US senate and claims that he just got raped. Would you immediately think "Boy, that guy's got to be president!"?

You mean the John McCain experience? Elections are all about bullshit rhetoric like that. He wouldn't even have to play to sympathy for him personally, but to his planet, which he surely could make look like a great casualty of the previous regime.

[Metahive]

It's no less reasonable than a victorious general being elected president. Plus, having been the impetus behind ousting the unpopular Valorum certainly was a bonus. Regardless, it's what the movie tells us, though the EU adds more to it than just that.

Ummm, I'd say there's a huge gaping abyss between "victorious general" and "guy whose homeplanet got invaded". The former actually accomplished something, the latter didn't. The ousting was also done by Amidala not him. Really, if the movie (and that's what we're talking about here) had portrayed Palpatine as having built an extensive political network behind the scenes which would push him into power once Valorum was gone it would have made more sense. I also repeat, the Senate acts as if they don't even believe there's something wrong on Naboo so why is he getting any "sympathy" anyway?

[Omeganian]

I posted a small fic here once (a translation from Russian) which says that Palpatine intended to create a usable vacuum in the local space - by getting Maul to kill all the sides.

[Elfdart]

I don't see the reasons behind Palpatine being elected Chancellor changing substantially between his original and revised plans. He gets sympathy for his home planet being invaded either way. Presumably, the original plan was meant merely to provoke a crisis, and the "legalization" of the invasion a farce meant to underscore how badly the Republic needs new leadership.

OK, somebody gotta' explain how "His homeplanet got invaded" translates to "That guy is presidential (chancellorial?) material", that just doesn't make much sense if you think about it. Imagine senator X stumbles into the US senate and claims that he just got raped. Would you immediately think "Boy, that guy's got to be president!"?

You mean the John McCain experience? Elections are all about bullshit rhetoric like that. He wouldn't even have to play to sympathy for him personally, but to his planet, which he surely could make look like a great casualty of the previous regime.

Lyndon Johnson won a huge landslide in 1964 (not only winning the White House but overwhelming majorities in both houses of Congress) in large part out of sympathy over the murder of John Kennedy -who was assassinated in Johnson's home state a year earlier.

The Galactic Republic had a parliamentary system, where elections can be called early, and where votes of no confidence are an option. Presumably, Palpatine had some measure of clout before the TF attacked his planet, which is why he made the short list of candidates to replace Valorum -only the others couldn't play the sympathy card.

Palpatine's M.O. is to stir up trouble, then play the victim and milk it for all it's worth.

[ronindave]

Really, if the movie (and that's what we're talking about here) had portrayed Palpatine as having built an extensive political network behind the scenes which would push him into power once Valorum was gone it would have made more sense.

This is another thing about the flawed storytelling of TPM. All of Palpatine's true political plottings are off screen. Nothing he says to the Trade Fed can be taken at face value because we know he's just using them and it was never revealed to us why they were working together anyway.

If the main emphasis of the overall storyarch was Palpatine's rise to power and Anakin's seduction to the Dark Side why waste almost a whole movie on an almost inconsequential storyline? The real story was Palpatine's rise to power not the side adventure of minor characters who didn't accomplish much that was substantial in the end.

In a New Hope, the film ended with the Death Star blown up along with the head villain and a significant number of Imperials while Darth Vader was even temporarily defeated. The Empire suffered a significant defeat and setback. On the other side the Rebellion was saved to fight another day and Luke became an important leader in the Rebellion. These were consequential outcomes. You could feel something got accomplished in the story.

With Phantom Menace, the Naboo winning the battle didn't do diddly-squat as Palpatine was elected Chancellor anyway. The whole entire battle was pointless from beginning to end because it couldn't have any impact on the end result. The only thing of consequence that occurred was Qui-Gon dying to set up Obi-wan as Anakin's trainer. The most significant thing that happened was Palpatine's election which we never saw! What kind of film-maker doesn't show the most significant part of his entire storyline?

And to top it off when the next film begins, it's 10 years later! With the exception of Palpatine getting elected and the introduction of Anakin, you could have thrown away the whole of TPM or crammed it into the first 15 minutes of the next film.

[Purple]

But why do you need to know why they worked for him? I mean, when you play the Spider Man PC game do you need to know why the mooks are working for Shocker? These guys are mooks and nothing more. The robot army is even worse, it is the equivalent of the uniforms and guns used by mooks in Bond movies. While the tradefed government is the equivalent of the guys dragging Bond around to meet the big guy.

And honestly, did you expect the prequels to surprise you? We all knew how it was going to end anyway. You can't reasonably expect that anything will mater. Things just have to click into place by definition.

Finally, the prequels are not the story of Palpatine, they are the story of Anking Skywalker who just happens to be around when the republic falls. He is the protagonist and he is the one who's perspective the movies fallow. It is not an epic about the fall of the Republic but one about the tragedy of the Skywalker family. The election really is just something secondary to be left in the background.

[Metahive]

But why do you need to know why they worked for him?

Because the TF are not just a bunch of mooks, they're portrayed as a major political power in the Republic and their disagreement with republican politics is presented as the major catalyst of events to come, including the later formation of the CIS and the Clone Wars. That should definitely not be chalked up to mere contrivances for plot's sake. Also, Anakin's rise and fall is intimately tied to these events, so yes, they definitely needed more fleshing out in the movies proper.

[ronindave]

But why do you need to know why they worked for him?

It's something called character motivation. Since Darth Sidious was so far in the background that no one even knew he existed on the other side, the Trade Federation were the principle villains of the film not simple nameless henchmen. Would it have killed the screen writer to have shaved off a few minutes of pod-racing to explain why the Trade Fed were so particularly hostile towards the Naboo ie their cover story for the invasion and why they were working with Sidious? Were they invading the planet on his request or were they invading it over the promise that he would make it legal - though how a cloaked guy could promise that I don't know?

And honestly, did you expect the prequels to surprise you? We all knew how it was going to end anyway.

What, that the storm troopers were clones? That the clone wars weren't fought against clones but along side of them? That Darth Vader turned to the dark side over bad dreams? That he slaughtered kids? That Obi-wan cut up Anakin and left him to die? That the Force turned out to be some microscopic bugs?

No, the main thing we knew was that Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side, that the Jedi were hunted down and destroyed by him (which didn't happen in the PT as the only Jedi he killed was Mace Windu and the kids), Luke and Leai were hidden from Vader, and the Empire rose out of the Old Republic.

But anyway I think you PT defenders keep missing the point about consequences which leads an audience caring about the story and the characters. Just because we know the Nazis will lose, doesn't make Saving Private Ryan any less moving. For one thing, D-Day though long over had consequences. Had it not succeeded the consequences would have been severe. We can appreciate the importance of the struggle.

In the Star Wars story, the destruction of the Death Star had consequences. Had they failed the Rebellion would have been practically wiped out. Same thing with Hoth, had they not escaped they would have been practically wiped out. And the end of ROTJ, the Rebellion was facing complete annihilation. With consequences you have tension with tension you have a vested interested in the story and in the characters.

With Phantom Menace there was no consequences with battle of Naboo since Palpatine won the election and he had it in his power to do whatever with the Naboo crisis since he was playing both sides. With any battle in the clone wars since both sides are working for the same bad guy really nothing any of them did would have any consequence. Had the Clone Wars been against an outside group then you would consequences.

Finally, the prequels are not the story of Palpatine, they are the story of Anking Skywalker who just happens to be around when the republic falls. He is the protagonist and he is the one who's perspective the movies fallow. It is not an epic about the fall of the Republic but one about the tragedy of the Skywalker family. The election really is just something secondary to be left in the background.

Well that's how it should been but it wasn't. Instead Palpatine kind of ended up becoming more of an evil protagonist thru the series since he was the only character with any real motivation and free will. Palpatine was a principle player in the tragedy of the Skywalker family. Since he was practically controlling everything and manipulating everyone, his presence was very important in the story more so that Obi-wan whom we never see actually training Anakin to see how he failed him.

The way the story was told (badly I might add) there needed to be more of Palpatine and his designs and less pointless fillers like Obi-wan and Qui-Gon going thru the planet core, fighting Darth Maul, Obi-wan fighting Jango Fett and his discovery of the clones which never was taken into consideration, Obi-wan fighting Grievous whose death did not end the war (anakin killing the leaders did), the battle on the wookie planet. None of those things had much bearing on the plot as Palpatine's schemings and manipulations did.

Without Palpatine there would have been no Darth Vader. You're kind of missing the whole point by saying the election of the second most important character of the Prequels was a secondary thing to be left in the background in place of a pointless battle that wasn't very important in the grand scheme of things. That election allowed him to come to power and thereby almost omnipotently cause everything to fall into place and lead into the OT

[TC Pilot]

Ummm, I'd say there's a huge gaping abyss between "victorious general" and "guy whose homeplanet got invaded".

Yeah, there's a difference, but they're both about as indicative of a person's ability to run a country. The concept of a sympathy vote is not unheard of, and it's what Palpatine says is helping his election campaign.

Elections don't have to decided by rational reasons.

The ousting was also done by Amidala not him.

With him standing at her side and whispering in her ear. Even if they weren't aware that he was the force behind Padme's call for a vote of no confidence, he's still associated with it by being her representative at the Senate.

I also repeat, the Senate acts as if they don't even believe there's something wrong on Naboo so why is he getting any "sympathy" anyway?

Where do you get that the Senate doesn't believe "there's something wrong"? The opening crawl states they're "endlessly [debating] this alarming chain of
events," the Supreme Chanceller dispatches Jedi to resolve the crisis, and it's only the Trade Federation Senator and one other guy who demand Senate procedure be followed and a committee be set up to investigate. It's not that they don't act because they don't believe there's somthing going wrong, it's that the system's so mired in corruption, red tape, and inertia that nothing can get done.

[Purple]

But why do you need to know why they worked for him?

Because the TF are not just a bunch of mooks, they're portrayed as a major political power in the Republic and their disagreement with republican politics is presented as the major catalyst of events to come, including the later formation of the CIS and the Clone Wars. That should definitely not be chalked up to mere contrivances for plot's sake. Also, Anakin's rise and fall is intimately tied to these events, so yes, they definitely needed more fleshing out in the movies proper.

But they are just mooks. They are mooks who happen to hold a significant position etc. but they are still just mooks. That is why they get so little screen time. They mater only from the character perspective since they appear to be the big bad but for us the viewers they are about as irrelevant as the battle droids.

That is actually one of the beauties of that movie. There are two movies going on at once, one that the characters see and the other that we do. We know that what they see as important is irrelevant. You are not supposed to care about the fate of Naboo. That is just the backdrop of the story. And it is this subtle thing that most people miss.

[ronindave]

But they are just mooks. They are mooks who happen to hold a significant position etc. but they are still just mooks. That is why they get so little screen time. They mater only from the character perspective since they appear to be the big bad but for us the viewers they are about as irrelevant as the battle droids.

Uh, no... they are an essential part of the first movie since they are the face of villainy for the heroes to struggle against. Why are you against the basic storytelling technique of giving principle characters some real motive?

That is actually one of the beauties of that movie. There are two movies going on at once, one that the characters see and the other that we do. We know that what they see as important is irrelevant. You are not supposed to care about the fate of Naboo. That is just the backdrop of the story. And it is this subtle thing that most people miss.

You're not suppose to care about the fate of Naboo? OMG! Then why waste millions of dollars filming a multi-faceted battle sequence for something we not suppose to care about? Did you seriously just write that?

My god, you prequel defenders will go to no end to defend bad writing! It's like you're saying "Yes the movie that you see is pointless, but the underlying story you don't see is incredible!" Well, show us that movie then! Don't waste my time with the other one that is just pointless filler with no consequences.

[lord Martiya]

Palpatine can't actually afford to off Gunray by then, that would cost him the control over the Trade Federation seeing as he specifcally propped that guy up to run it, he would also be in danger of tipping his hand too early with such a radical action, yeah, Gunray could even threaten Sidious back with the prospect of turning the records of their communications over to the Jedi if the Sith gets too demanding.

Really, Sidious had really not that much leverage to cow the mighty TF into going on self-destructive and unproductive adventures.

Apart the fear of the Sith. I don't know you, but if I was in his shoes and a Sith or somebody who could do a good impression of it asked me to do that, I'd do. And I recall of an Hath Monchar guy who tried to rattle them out: he was found beheaded, and the Black Sun Vigo he tried to sell the data to had been killed with all his subordinates but a poor soul who spoke of a 'misterious' invincible assassin, before dieing out of fear as the same assassin killed pretty much all the other Vigos. You don't rattle out a guy like this.

Did they know Sidious was a Sith?

According to the novelization, yes. And they were surprised of the fact there were two of them. Well, at least now they had a good guess at who had killed Hath Monchar and pretty much all the bosses of the most powerful criminal organization in the galaxy...