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 Post subject: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 01:26am
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Got snowed out yesterday, so I spent the day finishing this up. Download Link

I'll be back tomorrow to reply to comments and posts in other threads.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 02:04am
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Started reading this 'cause I was bored. I am surprised to actually find myself rather interested by it, and can say that it's a thousand times more bearable than RLM's review based just on the fact that it isn't being read aloud in a slow, droning monotone.

Nitpick:
Quote:
Obi-Wan is young and inexperienced. He's conservative and falls back to
mindlessly repeating the teachings of older Jedi who are in a position of authority
over himself: "But Master Yoda said to be mindful of the living Force."
Despite how underused Obi-Wan is in this movie, this point comes up later in
TPM and has an effect on the later prequels as well.
Isn't that meant to be "mindful of the future"? I think you should have gotten some people to proofread it before openly circulating it, but what I've read of it isn't bad so far. I'm not really a fan of the prequels, and I largely find TPM to be the weakest of them, but I think from what I've read so far you've done a more than adequate job addressing some of the "criticisms" that were directed towards it in the RLM review.

Buuut I'm only 17 pages in. I might have more to say the more of it I read.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 04:12am
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I just finished reading the section about Qui-Gon. It was great. I really liked that piece Jim.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 04:34am
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It really was. I found the whole article to be a lot better than I expected it to be, really. And rather amusing at parts, too. I particularly liked the occasional Darths & Droids-esque comic-strip parts. They gave it special touch, I felt. There were a few parts I didn't entirely agree with. I do think the "Planet Core" bit deserves all the shit it's given, especially after learning that the EU took the line and ran with it a fair way. But that is only a minor nitpick.

"I find your lack of customer service disturbing..." is pretty great, and I still keep chuckling over "Just start fighting all of them!"

Honestly, Qui-Gon was my favourite part of TPM. I thought he was a great character, and I thought Liam Neeson played him fantastically. In fact, the only reason I'd ever really watch TPM again is for Qui-Gon, and your piece on him really did the character justice.

In the other thread I said I wouldn't read a 140 page counter-rebuttal written to this, but if someone actually does try to write one, I just might, to see if they can respond to your arguments.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 04:59am
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:shock:

Holy cow!

All we need now is SW Prequel Defense as a university topic to match that dissertation. Have you also send it to that RLM guy?



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 05:06am
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Near the end now. Its quite readable, I'm almost done. Re: the blockade, the blockade being gone when they get back is a really obvious point- calling it 'convenient' is just dumb. Heck, look at the TPM script:-

Quote:
PANAKA : The blockade's gone.
OBI-WAN : The war's over...No need for it now.


If this isn't in the movie (I don't remember) it was probably removed because Lucas thought no one would wonder why it was gone. Apparently, he was wrong :)

Quote:
All we need now is SW Prequel Defense as a university topic to match that dissertation. Have you also send it to that RLM guy?


Why? To start an internet shit fight? That's pointless.

One part that I don't think is correct, on page 101:-

Quote:
Never mind the fact that Qui-Gon believed in Anakin, or that the Jedi Council never even put their foot down before and said that Anakin would absolutely not be trained.


Mace Windu specifically says that Anakin is not to be trained. Qui-Gon acknowledges this fact when he speaks to Anakin, saying for that reason he should follow him closely and watch what he does (the reason he took Anakin with him?). The Jedi simply changed their minds.

EDIT: but here's the script, is it the same as in the movie?

Quote:
YODA : An apprentice, you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible, to take on a second.
MACE WINDU : We forbid it.
QUI-GON : Obi-Wan is ready...
OBI-WAN : Iam ready to face the trials.
YODA : Ready so early, are you? What know you of ready?

ANAKIN watches as QUI-GON and OBI-WAN exchange angry looks.

QUI-GON : Headstrong....and he has much to learn about the living Force, but
he is capabe. There is little more he will learn from me.
YODA : Our own council we will keep on who is ready. More to learn, he
has...
MACE WINDU : Now is not the time for this...the Senate is voting for a new
Spreme Chancellor. Queen Amidala is returning home, which will put pressure
on the Federation, and could widen the confrontation.
YODA : And draw out the Queen's attacker.
KI-ADI : Events are moving fast...too fast.
MACE WINDU : Go with the Queen to Naboo and discover the identity of the
dark warrior. That is the clue we need to unravel this mystery of the Sith.
YODA : Young Skywalker's fate will be decided later.
QUI-GON : I brought Anakin here; he must stay in my charge. He has nowhere
else to go.
MACE WINDU : He is your ward, Qui-Gon...we will not dispute that.
YODA : Train him not. Take him with you, but train him not!
MACE WINDU : Protect the Queen, but do not intercede if it comes to war
until we have the Senate's approval.
YODA : May the Force be with you.


More:-

Quote:
OBI-WAN : The boy is dangerous...they all sense it. Why can't you?
QUI-GON : His fate is uncertain, not dangerous. The Council will decide
Anakin's future...that should be enough for you. Now get on board!


and

Quote:
QUI-GON : You won't be, Annie....I'm not allowed to train you, so I want you
to watch me and be mindful...always remember, your focus determines your
reality. Stay close to me and you will be safe.


So yes, it appears you're right - the Council made a preliminary decision that Anakin was not to be trained, but clearly indicated they would look at the decision in more detail at a later date.

DOUBLE EDIT:

Anyway, I read it all. This was a very well put together piece, and I commend you for it.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 07:50am
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That was better than I thought it'd be, Raynor--I also like those little comic panels you threw in.

How far do you intend on 'distributing' this, so to speak? I guess you could hope for it to spread virally like Stoklasa's video itself, but I imagine that that some would dismiss it all as the screeching of a 'Lucas-worshipping fanboy' or somethng, unfortunately.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 12:02pm
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So who's DoNotFeedTheHipsters?

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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 01:24pm
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Man, 108 pages of nerd rambling that completely misses the point of the reviews.

Your entire "thesis" is fundamentally based on accepting things that lay off of several degrees of assumptions that aren't present in the film (your entire understanding of Qui-Gon qualifies) or have any evidence at all, and you clearly don't understand the concept of hyperbole, or even basic exageration for comedic effect.

I mean, "no, it was 32 minutes" when he said Anakin appeared 45 minutes in? Really?

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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 05:43pm
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FVZA_Colonel wrote:
Man, 108 pages of nerd rambling that completely misses the point of the reviews.

Your entire "thesis" is fundamentally based on accepting things that lay off of several degrees of assumptions that aren't present in the film (your entire understanding of Qui-Gon qualifies) or have any evidence at all, and you clearly don't understand the concept of hyperbole, or even basic exageration for comedic effect.

I mean, "no, it was 32 minutes" when he said Anakin appeared 45 minutes in? Really?


I like how he opens with a dig on some celebrity endorsements and then makes a snark about how much money the movie made. I guess appeals to popularity are only valid if one appeal is more democratic than the other?

I stopped skimming when he accused the review of using actors for the "Describe a character" segment without any proof. At that point it's obvious that Raynor will make up whatever suits his purposes, which was to accuse the review of being 100% wrong. I skipped to the conclusion to confirm my suspicions:

the screed wrote:
I don't know how anyone can read this and still think that Stoklasa made good points in his review of TPM. Actually, I don't know how anyone thought he made good points in the first place.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 05:50pm
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How is the stuff about Qui-Gon not in the movie? Qui-Gon is an obvious father figure and his role in the plot (particularly his religious views and role towards Obi-Wan) are explicit.

I'm glad, however, that attacking the way someone says something is a valid approach. Certianly citing examples of errors or flaws is considered a 'nerdy' 'screed'.

The attitude towards Raynor's crazy document on this forum is fucking bizarre to me. Sure, it's nerdy and lame; but look at the fucking site you're on. If this was ANYTHING ELSE, anything that didn't have such violent emotions on both sides, his shit would be acclaimed as a critical re-examination of blah blah blah.

Someone should start a poll for people who thought TPM was a shit movie and that the RLM reviews are also shit. :lol:



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 06:21pm
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Excellent piece. I'm about 64 pages into it.

One thing - the whole "Republic credits are worthless" subplot always bothered me, even when I first saw the movie. I mean, sure, the credits are worthless on Tatooine, but presumably they're not worthless in the more important parts of the Republic. Are there no money-changers on Tatooine? Would it be too much of a risk to contact one?



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 06:24pm
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Given Tatooine's reputation in the movie, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply considered anyone money-related too untrustworthy.

Still, that's an idea that should've been more explicit IMO.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 06:29pm
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StarshipTitanic wrote:
I like how he opens with a dig on some celebrity endorsements and then makes a snark about how much money the movie made. I guess appeals to popularity are only valid if one appeal is more democratic than the other?
"Snark about how much money the movie made"? Are you being deliberately dishonest, or do you merely have a comprehension problem? Indeed, he wasn't using an appeal to popularity at all, except to address that he finds it difficult to believe melodramatic claims that it's the worst film ever, because of not just its box office performance, but the positive feedback from audience polls and continued success. And that there's a false perception that the film is universally hated.

And note this part isn't even in the actual review. None of it is stated as objective fact, but as his personal opinion in the "Why do you give a shit what he said" part, before the actual rebuttal begins.
Quote:
I stopped skimming when he accused the review of using actors for the "Describe a character" segment without any proof. At that point it's obvious that Raynor will make up whatever suits his purposes, which was to accuse the review of being 100% wrong. I skipped to the conclusion to confirm my suspicions:
A whole bunch of lies. In fact Raynor agrees with the RLM review on a few occasions, stating that he doesn't disagree with all of the points made. And you just skipped over all the factual rebuttals until you came to this one part that allowed you to decide it was all bullshit, right? Are you trolling, or are you really being this intellectually dishonest, you fucking asshat? Jesus.

I agree that Raynor has no factual basis with which to claim they were actors acting, even if that seems like the logical conclusion to some. But you cannot honestly seize on that one point and use it to dismiss his whole rebuttal.
Quote:
the screed wrote:
I don't know how anyone can read this and still think that Stoklasa made good points in his review of TPM. Actually, I don't know how anyone thought he made good points in the first place.
And him stating that he "doesn't understand how anyone though Stoklasa made good points" is a 'screed', after dozens of pages of pointing out lie after falsehood after mistake and/or omission in RLM's review?

Jesus, I don't even fucking like TPM. I think kid Anakin is a vapid,annoying character who says too much stupid shit and saves the day in a wholy unbelievable manner, I think Obi-Wan was pushed to the side and given too little screen-time and not established enough as a character, I think Darth Maul was fucking retarded and should have been given some personality, some motivation, some... SOMETHING other than "I'm a spiky-headed Sith dude with bad teeth to match my bad temper!", and my list of complaints could, quite honestly, go on. A lot. But RLM's stupid review is plain bullshit on numerous fucking levels. That's plain when you look at the evidence. You're ignoring the evidence because you're either trolling for fun or you don't care about the truth and want to cling to bullshit.

Fucking hell I can't believe I even needed to make this fucking post.
Guardsman Bass wrote:
Excellent piece. I'm about 64 pages into it.

One thing - the whole "Republic credits are worthless" subplot always bothered me, even when I first saw the movie. I mean, sure, the credits are worthless on Tatooine, but presumably they're not worthless in the more important parts of the Republic. Are there no money-changers on Tatooine? Would it be too much of a risk to contact one?
That's something that bothered me too. And if nothing else, if they booked a berth on a ship into Republic Space, using Republic Credits, the person could obviously spend those Republic Credits while in Republic Space to buy goods he can actually sell back on Tattooine. Possibly for a profit.

But maybe Qui-Gon just really wanted to keep that pimpin' shiny silver ride, idk. :lol: Anyway, aside from a few points like that, I found Raynor's rebuttal/review-of-a-review/essay/thing to be both well-stated, well-supported, and generally entertaining.

And now I'm walking away from this thread real quick before I get into an argument or flamewar or something.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 07:11pm
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Quote:
Man, 108 pages of nerd rambling


Says the guy posting in support of a 70 minute video of nerd rambling. :)

Quote:
Your entire "thesis" is fundamentally based on accepting things that lay off of several degrees of assumptions that aren't present in the film (your entire understanding of Qui-Gon qualifies) or have any evidence at all


Nonsense. Everything he says about Qui-Gon is supported by what happens in the movie.

Quote:
and you clearly don't understand the concept of hyperbole, or even basic exageration for comedic effect.


I think Jim adequately dealt with "he's just being funny" reasoning in the .pdf.

Quote:
that completely misses the point of the reviews.


It is literally impossible to "miss the point of the review" when you go after practically everything it says, point by point, with timestamps.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 09:36pm
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Stark wrote:
How is the stuff about Qui-Gon not in the movie? Qui-Gon is an obvious father figure and his role in the plot (particularly his religious views and role towards Obi-Wan) are explicit.

I'm glad, however, that attacking the way someone says something is a valid approach. Certianly citing examples of errors or flaws is considered a 'nerdy' 'screed'.

The attitude towards Raynor's crazy document on this forum is fucking bizarre to me. Sure, it's nerdy and lame; but look at the fucking site you're on. If this was ANYTHING ELSE, anything that didn't have such violent emotions on both sides, his shit would be acclaimed as a critical re-examination of blah blah blah.

Someone should start a poll for people who thought TPM was a shit movie and that the RLM reviews are also shit. :lol:


I guess it's how he touts the thing as a public service because the names of The Phantom Menace and George Lucas are so maligned over the Internet that gets me as fucking bizarre. The guy made a billion dollars on the thing so I don't think he cares. And Raynor reiterates how awful it was to watch the review. The whole experience just sounds unpleasant for him and there wasn't anything forcing him to do it.

Plus I'm bored and I wanted to talk about what I think of him.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 11:53pm
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Glad to see most people in this thread so far seemed liked this. I had hoped to maintain a level-headed, sometimes playful tone with this so that it would be a decent read, and not come across as an angry stream of "fucks" like so many forum posts, including mine. :)

SilverWingedSeraph wrote:
I think you should have gotten some people to proofread it before openly circulating it


You're right. I read this through and through before posting it, but looking at it again there are still typos and formatting errors that I missed. But I was just so ready to get this over with.

Vympel wrote:
EDIT: but here's the script, is it the same as in the movie?


Not all of those quotes were in the movie, but most of them (or lines similar to them) were. The key lines from the movie:

Yoda: "Young Skywalker's fate will be decided later."
Mace Windu: "Now is not the time for this."

Then they send Qui-Gon to follow the Queen back to Naboo.

Srelex wrote:
That was better than I thought it'd be, Raynor--I also like those little comic panels you threw in.

How far do you intend on 'distributing' this, so to speak? I guess you could hope for it to spread virally like Stoklasa's video itself, but I imagine that that some would dismiss it all as the screeching of a 'Lucas-worshipping fanboy' or somethng, unfortunately.


I'm thinking about posting this on theforce.net and the official starwars.com boards, as well as a few other big places. Forums where people might actually want to see long writings about Star Wars. I hope people read this, but I know it's a niche work at best. If it gets through in a few big places in the SW fandom, I'll be happy. If you liked it, feel free to tell other people you know about it.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-13 11:58pm
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Truth be told, some of RLM´s points are genuinely stupid while some of Raynor´s rebuttals are rather retarded. So it evens out, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-14 12:05am
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Lupercal wrote:
Truth be told, some of RLM´s points are genuinely stupid while some of Raynor´s rebuttals are rather retarded. So it evens out, I guess.

Stop playing mass media, it's not even. You take RLM points as they come and the same with Raynor. Saying "well I guess they are even" is intellectual laziness of the first degree.

And Raynor I've seen RLM's review, I'm snagging your counterpoint for review later and will respond once I've read it.




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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-14 12:06am
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Lupercal wrote:
Truth be told, some of RLM´s points are genuinely stupid while some of Raynor´s rebuttals are rather retarded. So it evens out, I guess.


For the purposes of discussion, you might want to point out what parts of Raynor's rebuttals are retarded. It might serve to improve the piece. Otherwise this is just Golden Mean fallacy filler.



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-14 01:31am
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Great job Jim, I must say you did a much better job of keeping a handle on your vitriol in this rebuttal than you did in your direct-response posts on this forum. It came off more like 'I disagree and this is why' and not so much 'this fucker killed my dog and his face is dumb!!'. Good rebuttal, especially the stuff about Qui-Gin Jin. Not much else to say other than 'hope you had fun writing it'.

Are you going to take on the rest of his reviews in a similar fashion? Will this be distributed beyond this site? Do you take exception to his other reviews as well?



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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-14 05:54am
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takemeout_totheblack wrote:
Great job Jim, I must say you did a much better job of keeping a handle on your vitriol in this rebuttal than you did in your direct-response posts on this forum. It came off more like 'I disagree and this is why' and not so much 'this fucker killed my dog and his face is dumb!!'. Good rebuttal, especially the stuff about Qui-Gin Jin. Not much else to say other than 'hope you had fun writing it'.


There is a reason for it, I think (Raynor can naturally correct me if I have guessed wrong): while writing the rebuttal he didn't have to engage in constant bickering with several different posters. It's only natural that it's easier to maintain one's composure when such outside stress factors are removed.

I found the rebuttal nice, thoughtful and from time to time funny. There were some bits which I disagreed with, but I'll read the thing again to make sure I actually disagree with them (it's possible that I just misread something or misunderstood something). Good job, I'd say. Of course, I haven't watched the actual RLM video, I couldn't get past the voice...



Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!

The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess

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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-14 07:10am
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Jedi Knight
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Joined: 2005-05-22 10:10pm
Posts: 626
Location: Western Pennsylvania
I liked it, reminded me why Qui-Gon is really my favorite Jedi out of the whole series, followed closely by OT Obi-Wan and Yoda. I fail to see the appeal of Windu, and no being played by Samuel L. Jackson doesn't count, and none of the other jedi other than Yoda or Obi-Wan actually do anything. Really the Jedi Order in the PT is underwhelming and mostly pointless windowdressing it semes.

Regarding the money, my guess would be that its not really a matter of not being able to change the money (although we have no idea of what the exchange rate would be), its more that the amount that they're trying to exchange would probably attract the attenting of the Hutts. I'm pretty certain they go to an out of the way place like Tatooine to avoid the TF who presumably have a respectably presence in the more civilized space. It's been years since I've seen the movie so I can't reall remember if that came from the movie or elsewhere. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if the TF had contacts with the criminal underworld and the Hutt in general anyway. The reluctance to charter a ship like Luke and Obi-Wan did in ANH may simply be that they're afraid of the pilot finding out about them somehow and turning them in to the TF for a bounty. I certainly wouldn't trust a pilot I met there given the amount of dodgy stuff that seems to go on.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-14 11:06am
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Joined: 2011-01-14 10:25am
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Feeling out how response to this doc. will play out. Here's an example:

Using this piece of the Response:
Quote:
1:10 Unsupported statements that Lucas "controls every aspect of the movie" and "probably got rid of those people that questioned him creatively a long time ago" are made. Basic smear tactics.


Is the importance of this response, that:
A. RLM did not take the time to support it?
B. Do you think the quote is incorrect because of the words used?
C. Do you think the quote is wrong, no matter how you interpret it.
D. or is this is a response, which builds with other comments to make a larger point, which i've missed because I haven't finished the doc yet.


A.1 If he expanded in a future review, would that help/hurt/hinder, or do you find the premise unproveable?

B.1 Of course the 'control' statement is technically impossible, he can't do every job on a movie... yet.
B.2 When you combine Creator/Writer/Director/Funder as someone's title, is the 'control' assumption not logical?
B.3 For instance 'got rid of' is phrased harshly. Is that the point of disagreement?

C.1 Could a case be made to lift the 'basic smear tactic' comment?
C.2 What is your take on the working history of Lucasfilm with Marcia Lucas, John Dykstra and Gary Kurtz?
C.3 Do you have examples of people questioning him during other 'non-long time ago' periods?

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 Post subject: Re: Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF) PostPosted: 2011-01-14 11:53am
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Redshirt

Joined: 2009-01-01 04:46am
Posts: 9
Here's a thought. When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are on the Trade Fed ship, they decide to stow away on separate dropships. Dropships designed to transport droids, not living beings. The course of their journey takes them through the vacuum of space. Two humans, that breathe oxygen, decide to stow away on a dropship that was designed to transport droids. What reason would they have to think that the dropships would meet the necessary requirements to maintain their life? During the trip, why weren't they killed?

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