Red Letter Media RotS Review Up

[Vehrec]

Part of Palpatine's acclamation may have been shock. Imagine this. You're the Senator from Poondunk, a small sector on the edge of nowhere, who's only interest in the war is to get it out of your home so your inbox will stop filling up with letters from the little people begging that you bring this to an end. You're tired, and frankly overworked after the recent invasion and resumption of Senate bussiness, so you go to bed early tonight. Suddenly, you're roused from your bed for an emergency session of the Senate, and are quickly hustled by the senatorial gards into a hover-limo that isn't yours with a couple other Senators for express delivery.

When you get to the Senate, you have to sit through Palpatine's speech, and it breaks your world asunder with it's words. Your aides tell you that the basic facts are true-Five Jedi Master's attempted a coup shortly after nightfall, and then Palpatine used his war powers to order the Purge. The Jedi have, in less than six hours, ceased to exist as a pillar of the Republic. The Guardians of Truth, Justice and Democracy have been killed in the thousands, and now more than ever the Republic stands on the edge of the Knife. Then Palpatine makes his power play, and you smell the bullshit. Did he scheme for this to happen? How deep does it go? Before you can even begin to think however, the entire New Order is on their feet. Less than a day ago, the Jedi seemed invincible, as much a symbol of the republic as this body of elected officials. Now, you submit to crowd pressure, and join the thunderous applause even as something inside you dies, knowing that to fail to do so will mean that you might never see another day, and that the guards who brought you here might see to it.

[Gunhead]

I would easily see the plausibility in Palpatine making a military coup. He had control of the armed forces, to the extent they carried out a secret order without question, against which no single system or even a major alliance of systems had any chance of opposing. He had majority vote in the senate which just gives him more leverage and the political muscle to bully enough people to side with him, for the time needed to establish his absolute rule. One might argue that this is exactly what he did and if this had been shown it would have elevated the prequels in my eyes, but it wasn't.

-Gunhead

[Jim Raynor]

Is it my fault that your childish tantrum and (upcoming?) 70-page rebuttal is an amusing overreaction? Additionally, I don't think you're too dumb to understand RLM, but you're definitely too emotionally invested.

If anyone is childish here, it's you. I have not seen you make one honest, substantive post in this thread. Rather, all you're posting is dismissive joking insults directed at people who don't like Dork Idol.

Yeah, we really need to grasp at straws from the Expanded Universe books to refute this guy. Someone who argues that the Trade Federation should've openly screwed themselves over just to help Palpatine, for no reward. When someone fails to grasp a movie's plot at such a basic level, you don't treat him as anything other than an idiot.

What about Dooku? He was a Jedi master. Did the movies ever sufficiently explain how, when and why he fell to the dark side and became a Sith Lord?

No, they don't beyond the simple guess that he probably joined Palpatine for power. He's a supporting character, the plot isn't about him.

Wrong, it's obviously a tool the guy uses to promote his independent movie business. That's why several people think it's absurd that anyone would go to such lengths as a 70 page rebuttal (I know that's not you) in reply. The nerd fury he generates plays right into his hand. No wonder he does such a good Palpatine impression.

Rush Limbaugh has come out before saying he does his shit for money. Glenn Beck has also said that he runs an "entertainment company" and claims that he "could give a flying crap about the political process." These shameless self-promoters still say what they say, and could very well be selectively using the "entertainment" card as a lame shield from criticism. Unless their show is on, at which point they want everyone to think that they're making good points.

And it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people are fooled, and do think that they make good points. If you follow an idiot, even someone who selectively claims that he's totally not serious, then you deserve to have your illusions shattered.

[Jim Raynor]

The entire prequel trilogy shows Palpatine's rise to power over the years. He's obviously a much more savvy politician than Valorum, so it can easily be assumed that he was smart enough to gain favor from a majority of Senators between TPM and AOTC. The entire scheme in TPM was meant to gain sympathy for him, and portray him as the strong and caring leader that the Republic needed. The point of AOTC was to show how fear and war could lead to political leaders with absolute power. Remember that in 2002, the attitude in America was "you can't criticize the President" because of 9/11 and the ongoing war in Afghanistan. Palpatine once again played the Senators, portraying himself as a brave patriot so that he could get "emergency" powers. The movie ends with the Jedi Order distrustful of the Senate, thinking that the Senators are conspiring in a plot against the Republic. The best lies are half-truths; it's heavily implied that Palpatine does in fact control numerous Senators and even the judicial system.

The Jedi Order consists of all of a few thousand people in a galaxy with at least "thousands" (quoted from the movies) of star systems. They're not a pillar of the Republic - they're a small police unit. As the Chancellor, Palpatine, not the Jedi, would be the face of the Republic. In real life, everyone knows who the President is. Can the average person on the street even name a single General or Admiral? So when the great Dear Leader who you've loved for more than a decade comes out horribly scarred, blaming his disfigurement on a coup attempt, the corrupt and stupid will believe him or choose to follow along. And the movies had already established that the Republic was full of corrupt and stupid people.

[Elfdart]

Would you say Lucas directs actors well? Just curious.

About as well as most other directors. Two of the actors he directed did get Oscar nominations for their performances (Candy Clarke in American Graffiti and Alec Guinness in Star Wars). The performances across the board in THX-1138 and especially American Graffiti were very good, which is why the latter launched so many acting careers. Aside from Carrie Fisher's on again-off again British accent, the performances in Star Wars were also very good, with Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford turning in great ones and stealing the show. So in three straight movies at the beginning of his career, George Lucas managed to get good performances out of his cast, which should put to rest the idea that he can't direct actors worth a damn.

I don't think he's in the same league as Francis Coppola* when it comes to actors, but he's definitely better than Michael Bay.


* On the other hand, no film George Lucas has ever directed or produced (including Howard the Duck) has acting as cringe-worthy as Keanu Reeves' performance in Bram Stoker's Dracula, directed by Francis Coppola.

[Kane Starkiller]

Yeah, we really need to grasp at straws from the Expanded Universe books to refute this guy. Someone who argues that the Trade Federation should've openly screwed themselves over just to help Palpatine, for no reward. When someone fails to grasp a movie's plot at such a basic level, you don't treat him as anything other than an idiot.

That's not what the review states. What he complains is that there is never any explanation given for:
1) Why Trade Federation leadership outright obeys Sidious
2) Why Trade Federation decided to secede from the Republic
3) Why is Nute Gunray obsessed with killing Amidala to the point he'll refuse to join the separatists unless she is dead
4) Why the Separatist leadership allows itself to be cowed and ordered around by Griveus and Dooku

Do you have any answers that were STATED IN THE FILM as opposed to your own speculations?

[Galvatron]

If anyone is childish here, it's you. I have not seen you make one honest, substantive post in this thread. Rather, all you're posting is dismissive joking insults directed at people who don't like Dork Idol.

Hey, I've said plenty. I've expressed my opinion and made comments that had nothing to do with you. Just because I'm not engaging in a tit-for-tat duel of tl;dr wall-of-text bickering with you doesn't mean I have nothing to contribute.

Yeah, we really need to grasp at straws from the Expanded Universe books to refute this guy. Someone who argues that the Trade Federation should've openly screwed themselves over just to help Palpatine, for no reward. When someone fails to grasp a movie's plot at such a basic level, you don't treat him as anything other than an idiot.

Actually, in this review he wonders why Nute Gunray continues to take orders from Sidious when it's obvious he's being played for a fool.

What about Dooku? He was a Jedi master. Did the movies ever sufficiently explain how, when and why he fell to the dark side and became a Sith Lord?

No, they don't beyond the simple guess that he probably joined Palpatine for power. He's a supporting character, the plot isn't about him.

But I thought your point was that no one else fell to the dark side except for Anakin because the movie was making some kind of point about anger, fear, suffering, etc.

Since Dooku fell too, that's obviously not the case...right?

[Galvatron]

So in three straight movies at the beginning of his career, George Lucas managed to get good performances out of his cast, which should put to rest the idea that he can't direct actors worth a damn.

Are you open to the possibility that he simply may have lost his touch between 1977 and 1999? It happens.

[Purple]

1) Why Trade Federation leadership outright obeys Sidious

Bribes? Political influence? Fear? A combination of all?

Episode 1 clearly gives the notion of the man having goten into it becouse he was told that he could profit off it and when Darth Maul is sent over we see him thinking or saying someting in the terms of: "this is more than I bargained for." (Or at least so I recall, I might be wrong so if I am please correct me.)

3) Why is Nute Gunray obsessed with killing Amidala to the point he'll refuse to join the separatists unless she is dead

Well let's see. A princes from the castle with two knights and a bunch of police officers and hand maidens smote him and his mighty army healthily.

She embarrassed him to the point that he is probably laughed at behind his back. He is certainly portrayed as a laughing stock in the cartoon fallowing up on this trend. And she cost him a lot of money for the droid army at least. So he has a right to be a tad bit upset.

4) Why the Separatist leadership allows itself to be cowed and ordered around by Griveus and Dooku

Perhaps because they can kill every one of them? Or perhaps because Dooku is a respected Jedi Master. Or perhaps because the mysterious friend of the two has connections in the senate that let him have access to a lot of money? (Logical conclusion of the fact that Palpatine does in fact have both and if he does not use them than something is wrong with the story.)

[Kane Starkiller]

Say again:

Do you have any answers that were STATED IN THE FILM as opposed to your own speculations?

[Purple]

Does it have to be literally stated in words or is it enough for it to be obvious from the scenes in question?

I mean my answer on point 3 is clearly shown in the end of episode 1 and Gunrays reaction to Maul and the situation getting out of hand in the same episode indicates my answer to point 1.

Only my answer to point 4 is not clearly visible but fallows logic since the man is a Sith lord who has among other things arranged for the whole war and it is certainly well within his power to kill them. So it is not clearly stated but implied if you use even the modicum of brain power.

[Galvatron]

Still not as good as his TPM review, but that's a tough act to follow. Still, he makes salient points that will no doubt be refuted here by people citing the EU or by making convoluted rationalizations that the rest of us dullards should be able to see as being "obvious."

[Marcus Aurelius]

Would you say Lucas directs actors well? Just curious.

About as well as most other directors. Two of the actors he directed did get Oscar nominations for their performances (Candy Clarke in American Graffiti and Alec Guinness in Star Wars). The performances across the board in THX-1138 and especially American Graffiti were very good, which is why the latter launched so many acting careers. Aside from Carrie Fisher's on again-off again British accent, the performances in Star Wars were also very good, with Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford turning in great ones and stealing the show. So in three straight movies at the beginning of his career, George Lucas managed to get good performances out of his cast, which should put to rest the idea that he can't direct actors worth a damn.

I don't think he's in the same league as Francis Coppola* when it comes to actors, but he's definitely better than Michael Bay.

Yep, in the three movies he made 20 or more years before the PT and then stopped directing And if it feels like I'm repeating this point ad nauseam, it's only because it deserves repeating.

That said, when talking about American Graffiti, we are talking about a movie where the characters and their motivations are much easier for an actor to understand, because it tells about a situation where basically every adult person has been in some way or another. So, a talented actor would in most cases perform fairly well under those circumstances even with an average director. Even so, Lucas certainly was better at directing actors back then, or at least he cared more about the character based scenes, which has the same end result. Lack of skill or lack of motivation, there is no difference in the end.

Also, calling all the performances in Star Wars very good is a bit of a stretch, which most critics would not agree with. Ford and Guinness give good performances, as well as Peter Cushing and Anthony Daniels in their smaller roles, the rest are merely okay. Both Fisher and Hamill did better in ESB.

[Kane Starkiller]

Does it have to be literally stated in words or is it enough for it to be obvious from the scenes in question?

I mean my answer on point 3 is clearly shown in the end of episode 1 and Gunrays reaction to Maul and the situation getting out of hand in the same episode indicates my answer to point 1.

Only my answer to point 4 is not clearly visible but fallows logic since the man is a Sith lord who has among other things arranged for the whole war and it is certainly well within his power to kill them. So it is not clearly stated but implied if you use even the modicum of brain power.

LOL your "answer" to question 1 for example was:

"Bribes? Political influence? Fear? A combination of all?"
Well which one is it? And when you nail it down how about expanding upon it a bit and then tell where exactly in the films it was explained.

And your answer to 3 in no way addresses why Gunray would base a historic decision of secession from 1000 year Republic based on his personal whim and why the rest of Trade Federation would follow him.

But let's try something easier: just what the fuck is Trade Federation? A member state like Nevada? Or a trade organization like WTO?
What the fuck is Banking Clan? An organization of banks? How do banks secede from a republic exactly? You think maybe the movies could be just a tad clearer on that?

[Purple]

"Bribes? Political influence? Fear? A combination of all?"
Well which one is it? And when you nail it down how about expanding upon it a bit and then tell where exactly in the films it was explained.

Nothing is mentioned in words but all of it can be clearly seen from the events in episode 1.
I even explained where.

But I really can't show you what you want since you will accept nothing short of a piece of dialog where Lucas him self shows up on the screen and tells it to you.

And your answer to 3 in no way addresses why Gunray would base a historic decision of secession from 1000 year Republic based on his personal whim and why the rest of Trade Federation would follow him.

In politics things like that have happened. Personal whims can and do dictate politics from time to time.

But let's try something easier: just what the fuck is Trade Federation? A member state like Nevada? Or a trade organization like WTO?
What the fuck is Banking Clan? An organization of banks? How do banks secede from a republic exactly? You think maybe the movies could be just a tad clearer on that?

Thankfuly we have something called the EU.

[dworkin]

Thankfuly we have something called the EU.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
...
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
...
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Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
...
Ha!

[Srelex]

But let's try something easier: just what the fuck is Trade Federation? A member state like Nevada? Or a trade organization like WTO?
What the fuck is Banking Clan? An organization of banks? How do banks secede from a republic exactly? You think maybe the movies could be just a tad clearer on that?

...of all the things to pick over the prequels, this? It's obvious even to kids that the Trade Federation is, well, a trading corporation, and the Banking Clan is a banking organization. These supposed to be bizarre mysteries presented by the movies? I mean, what, were they supposed to present detailed histories on these companies or something?

[Kane Starkiller]

Nothing is mentioned in words but all of it can be clearly seen from the events in episode 1.
I even explained where.

But I really can't show you what you want since you will accept nothing short of a piece of dialog where Lucas him self shows up on the screen and tells it to you.

All of WHAT can be clearly seen? I remind you that you yourself have no idea but threw up a bunch of disparate possible reasons and combination(!) of them. No shit. There obviously was SOME reason. But what the fuck was it?

Thankfuly we have something called the EU.

Not interested. If I pay to see a movie I want it to explain itself an the nature and motivation of its characters.

...of all the things to pick over the prequels, this? It's obvious even to kids that the Trade Federation is, well, a trading corporation, and the Banking Clan is a banking organization. These supposed to be bizarre mysteries presented by the movies? I mean, what, were they supposed to present detailed histories on these companies or something?

Trade Federation is some kind of...trade organization and Banking clan is some kind of...banking organization. So their names are perfectly sufficient to explain how they have seats on senate or can lead a secession and motivations? Honestly?

[Srelex]

Trade Federation is some kind of...trade organization and Banking clan is some kind of...banking organization. So their names are perfectly sufficient to explain how they have seats on senate or can lead a secession and motivations? Honestly?

Obviously, from the way they're presented (you know, having fucking private armies and all), they're rich enough to warrant senatorial representation and be able to contribute to a separatist movement (they mention unrestricted capitalism or something, don't they?) I mean, sheesh, this isn't brain-taxing stuff. There are other things you could legitimately nitpick.

[StarshipTitanic]

Maybe, but it's all speculation, right?

But it is not unreasonable speculation.
I mean, looking at it his ascend to the position of Emperor was more like that of Augustus proclaiming him self Dictator for life while keeping the Republic than an actual take over. He even kept the senate for quite a long time.

That's one of RDM's point: there are a lot of important details that are left unexplained or ignored for no good reason and it makes the characters look like idiots.

I would disagree.

Yes the things were not explored in great detail but Episode 1 shows us indications that something like what I described is quite possible. Furthermore, during the whole 3 episodes the recurring theme is that the Emperor is on Corusant constantly plotting with the various senators and politicians. So there is no need to specifically show what is already implied.

The implication stands that he used all the time he spent there to actually get support. It's much more far fetched to assume he was just standing there doing nothing for all that time.

It's unreasonable that I'm expected to go home and speculate about why very important plot points happened.

The Jedi, guardians of peace and justice etc. for a thousand generations years, heroically lead troops all over the galaxy in the war.

Four Jedi confront Palpatine when it's revealed that he's a Sith.

Is it? As far as I am aware he is not reveled to be one to the public at all. And he acts against the Jedy to fast for them to get it out.

Furthermore, for the average citizen of the galaxy the difference between Jedi and Sith would not be so clear. It seems to be little more than the color of your light saber and the side you are fighting on.

And the Jedi are acting like generals in the army. So while they are heroes they are also in a position that gives them a lot of power. And that shifts the entire balance of power in the society. In episode 1 I forgot who of them says that they are not an army. But by the end of ROTS the Jedi do effectively have a grand army loyal to them and under their control.

And some of the more scheming and dishonest senators (read as: the lot of them) might see this as a threat to them. And we know from the EU that an armed Jedi takeover of the Republic is not out of the question at all.

So when Palpatine comes out and proclaims that he has just been attacked by a Jedi Master (and has the scars to show for it) and that the Jedi have launched a rebellion he has through his quick action stopped it certainly does present a credible story.

And had it been done better, that much I will admit it would have seemed completely fluent.

Anakin recognizes Qui Gon as a Jedi merely by seeing his "laser sword" so the Jedi are pretty well known. When has anyone but a Jedi talked about the Sith? You're making things up and assuming stuff about a lot of things here. And I don't want to go to the EU for explanations.

Wrong, it's obviously a tool the guy uses to promote his independent movie business. That's why several people think it's absurd that anyone would go to such lengths as a 70 page rebuttal (I know that's not you) in reply. The nerd fury he generates plays right into his hand. No wonder he does such a good Palpatine impression.

Rush Limbaugh has come out before saying he does his shit for money. Glenn Beck has also said that he runs an "entertainment company" and claims that he "could give a flying crap about the political process." These shameless self-promoters still say what they say, and could very well be selectively using the "entertainment" card as a lame shield from criticism. Unless their show is on, at which point they want everyone to think that they're making good points.

And it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people are fooled, and do think that they make good points. If you follow an idiot, even someone who selectively claims that he's totally not serious, then you deserve to have your illusions shattered.

Huh? What?

What a massively inflated self-importance you have.

[Freefall]

A lot of the nitpicks being brought up are pretty much exactly what I meant by "miss the forest for the trees." The the overall criticism isn't just the sum of the nitpicks, rather, they are just the various symptoms of the overall disease of bland mediocrity that pervades the PT. Some people act as if a clever (or even not-so-clever) rebuttal can be made for all of the nitpicks, that it will then somehow prove that the movies overall are actually good, which isn't actually how it works.

The OT could be severely nitpicked as well, if someone had the mind to do it (I would actually suggest something like this would be far more interesting project for Jim Raynor to approach as opposed to the mammoth rebuttal to RLM he has in mind, but I doubt he has the sense of humor to actually make it a good satire). The giant asteroid worm, for example; seriously, what the fuck is that thing? How does something that big support itself on an asteroid in a vacuum? How the hell did it even get there?

But nobody bothers with these questions, because at the time it shows up, the ecology of the worm is far less interesting than the dramatic situation the characters are in. We know who they are, and we care who they are; their performances feel genuine, which makes them seem like real, 3-dimensional characters. We barely even know anything about them (Han has past history with Jabba; that's about it for him), but we care because they seem to have a genuine sense of camaraderie, and they seem genuinely concerned about their own situation, which really helps. So yeah, nobody cares about the worm, because we're too busy caring about Han & Leia & co. The quality of the practical effects probably also plays a large role in finding the world itself more believable. Yoda, for example, was just a puppet, and yet I never had a problem buying him as a character, whereas in Ep II & III, when he shows up you go, "oh, he's just a computer effect now."

This extends to almost all the scenes in the movies of course; the space worm was just an example. You could bring up others, like the carbonite freeze (why not just dope Luke up? Do Jedi have anti-drug powers?), or whatever.

I believe Spielberg has a philosophy about how, if you really get the dramatic aspect of a scene down perfectly, you can stretch the audiences SoD to nearly infinity. The OT did this a lot. When you certain aspects of the movie well enough to make the audience happy, then they don't need to nitpick anything because their needs have been met. It's when they don't like something in the first place that their attention begins to wander to other details to see if they can find something more interesting to focus on. Of course, most movies aren't built with that level of detail, so all they usually end up finding are more and more flaws, which is where the nitpicks come from.

So basically, I think if you really want to attack RLM, then you have to go after his points that have to do with dialog, characterization, what's merely "told" when it should be "shown," over reliance on green/blue screen, unimaginative camera angles, and stuff like that. Those seem to be the core problems with the PT, as opposed to something like Naboo having a water core, which is stupid, but ultimately irrelevant.

I would personally add Palpatine's overall plot to the list, just because of how it affects the story in general. It basically comes across as the kind of overcomplicated super villain scheme you would expect from older comic books. It relies on an absurd number of factors going right for him which he logically should have had little to no direct control over, so we basically end up with a villain who won because he was either

a) absurdly lucky, to the point we may as well conclude that God The Force was personally backing him

b) in such an unassailable position of power to begin with that virtually nothing could have actually derailed his plans anyway.

Neither is dramatically very satisfying.

Are you open to the possibility that he simply may have lost his touch between 1977 and 1999? It happens.

No kidding. Just look at what happened to Shyamalan. Hero to punchline in half that time.

[Elfdart]

Yeah, we really need to grasp at straws from the Expanded Universe books to refute this guy. Someone who argues that the Trade Federation should've openly screwed themselves over just to help Palpatine, for no reward. When someone fails to grasp a movie's plot at such a basic level, you don't treat him as anything other than an idiot.

That's not what the review states. What he complains is that there is never any explanation given for:
1) Why Trade Federation leadership outright obeys Sidious

Because he's powerful and they're cowardly.

2) Why Trade Federation decided to secede from the Republic

They weren't getting what they wanted from the Republic (the reason they attacked Naboo), Gunray was put on trial for attacking Naboo, and because they bought Dooku's bullshit.

3) Why is Nute Gunray obsessed with killing Amidala to the point he'll refuse to join the separatists unless she is dead

You're the leader of a huge corporation with political clout, your own army and navy and two Sith lords on your side...

And you get your ass kicked by a couple of adolescent girls, one of whom (Amidala) takes you prisoner and humiliates you with your own scheme: a treaty signed at gunpoint. You end up on trial for what you pulled, too.

You wouldn't hold a seething grudge and want her dead, too?

4) Why the Separatist leadership allows itself to be cowed and ordered around by Griveus and Dooku

See #1.

Do you have any answers that were STATED IN THE FILM as opposed to your own speculations?

All of these are clearly stated in TPM, AOTC -or they're the logical conclusion anyone who is NOT a complete fucktard would reach if they had watched the films.

[Vympel]

All of these are clearly stated in TPM, AOTC -or they're the logical conclusion anyone who is NOT a complete fucktard would reach if they had watched the films.

Yeah, RLM's "whhhhhyyyy" questions are for the most part fucking stupid. Seriously, even a child watching these movies was able to infer what the hell the answers to these questions were. Its really not difficult.

[Nephtys]

All of these are clearly stated in TPM, AOTC -or they're the logical conclusion anyone who is NOT a complete fucktard would reach if they had watched the films.

Yeah, RLM's "whhhhhyyyy" questions are for the most part fucking stupid. Seriously, even a child watching these movies was able to infer what the hell the answers to these questions were. Its really not difficult.

Except a lot of them do make sense though. Why did Qui-Gon and Obiwan take different ships? Why did the droid army land on the other side of the planet, thus requiring a trip through the 'planet core' (whatever the hell that is). How did Qui-Gon know the name of the poison gas being used to kill them? How did Padme know about a 'hangar' the jedi were going to when nobody told her about one? What happens if Anakin spared Dooku after Palpatine betrays him? etc.

[Freefall]

Something I've actually wondered about is why Watto apparently made no attempts to confirm ownership (or even existence) of the ship and pod Qui Gonn used to enter the race and as collateral. And you'd think the Jedi would have rules against gambling with other people's property in the first place. And while I'm sure Watto doesn't particularly care if Qui Gonn is a thief or not, you'd think he would at least be concerned about acquiring a ship that might actually belong to some other fairly nasty characters who might come looking for it.