Sarevok wrote:Exactly. Right now, this is the closest we have to commercial spaceflight. Because everyone else is too uninterested to fund anything even remotely like it. So how the hell does that invalidate my point that it has to start somewhere? Right the fuck now, only private hobbies like this will do anything even remotely resembling progress in that area. Which is at least some place to start.
Dear lord how can someone as stupid as you breathe much less post on the internet ? If you think suborbital commercial planes -> Spaceplanes -> Private Space stations you are dumb beyond belief.
Private space industry is making progress alright. Its just that they focus on real products like satellites and launchers. Virgin Galactic is banking on a dead end platform that will never evolve into something capable of entering orbit. If they were developing an independent launcher like the SpaceX Falcon rocket or made a Skylon type craft work then they would be doing something that may one day lead to space. You need a real spacecraft to claim you are advancing private business ventures in space.
OK, take a deep breath, calm down, and try to understand this.
SpaceShipOne and SpaceShipTwo are not and never were intended to reach orbit. NO ONE involved with the projects ever implied that. Even before the Ansari prize flights Rutan stated that the design would not work for orbital flights and he'd have to design something else. They are "Tier 1". It's "Tier 2" that reaches orbit (and "Tier 3" goes beyond).
What Tier 1 does do is allow for the development of things like life support systems and guidance systems that will be needed for private space ventures. The main guidance system of SS1 was unique and not like prior systems used by NASA or the military, for example. It also allows the building of a group of civilian, private space pilots with some experience on short flights before they go on long flights.
It is also explicitly a fund raising tool. Remember this, it's important. Rutan estimates a cost of $100,000 per seat per flight. That's how much it costs to fly the thing. They are charging twice that. This is called "profit". Find enough rich people willing to plonk down 200 grand a piece you not only turn a profit you now have the money for the next phase. You know, the one where they actually go into orbit...?
And yes, both SS1 and SS2 really do go into space. Most everyone in the aerospace industry seems comfortable with that notion, albeit they don't go very far into space. Why do you have a problem with it?
Sarevok wrote:Seriously dude how the fuck is VSS Enterprise someday supposed to evolve into something that attains orbital velocity and reenters safely and lands ? Its a challenge even NASA has not been able to solve yet with all their technical expertise. You dont do business of cheap manned spaceflight when there is no cheap manned flight option available. If you think VSS Enteprise is advancing spaceplane development think again because it is a complete dead end. You need radically different type of vehicle to reach space.
No one who has actually thought or researched the matter thinks a SS2 is going to orbit anything. That's not it's purpose. It's a means of raising funds for the next phase.
And yes, despite what you think, it is manned spaceflight. Next you will tell me the Curtis-Jenny biplane didn't really fly because it couldn't cross an ocean.
Sarevok wrote:LOLs @ references to aviation. Historical analogies in a technical debate are the last bastion of the stupid and the ignorants. Can I draw space is an ocean analogy too now ? :
Sure, go ahead.
But, you know... automobiles started as plaything for the rich.... airplanes started as playthings for the rich... there does seem to be a pattern here...
Your infantile rantings aside care to demonstrate a feasible timeline or any plans Virgin Galactic is stated to have for manned orbital spaceflight ? Because if space travel is what they want why not start with that ? Why fuck around wasting money on circus show performences ?
You do realize circuses make money, yes? If they didn't they wouldn't stay in business.
"Spaceflight" is not defined by "being in orbit", OK? You may disagree with that, but apparently the rest of the world voted when you weren't looking. "Space" is above 100km.
As for plans - as stated, this meta-project is broken into three "Tiers". Tier 1 is sub-orbital. Tier 2 is orbit. Tier 3 is beyond Earth orbit. There are plans for all three tiers. Got it? Yes, there ARE plans in the works. But no one goes from Mojave spaceport directly to the Moon. Did you forget that NASA went first with sub-orbital flights, then orbital, then beyond? And the Russians did the same? Do you know more than all those people about how this should be done? If you do, why aren't you doing it?
Right now there's still some wobble back and forth on whether the orbital craft will be SS3 or a later version. Why? Because Branson and Rutan don't want to kill their customers. It's bad for business. As it is, Rutan had his first company fatalities building SS2. This guy built and flew experimental airplanes for forty years without a mishap, a fantastic safety record, but there was still a fatal blunder during this project. Space travel is fucking dangerous. That's why they don't give firm launch dates years in advance. They have emphasized over and over the schedule is safety-driven - they WILL delay things for safety reasons. It takes as long as it takes. Why the fuck are you in such a hurry? Do you want people to die to get into space?
Sarevok wrote:If you think a few meager few hundred millions is holding back cheap manned spaceflight you are wrong. If Virgin Galactic was serious about this they can go derivations of existing technology like SpaceX plans to. If they want to develop something radical like resusable spacecraft they will never ever have the money to do that because even research conducted by nations have not yielded a single success.
Right, and a couple of bicycle mechanics from Dayton, Ohio will never build a working airplane because research conducted by nations have not yielded a single success.
Except Rutan isn't a bicycle mechanic, he's one of the most gifted aircraft designers of our generation. He's been designing new aircraft for over 40 years, includnig for NASA and the US military.
And what makes you think they aren't using off the shelf technology where they can? Just because it looks weird doesn't mean there aren't familiar things under the hood.
I'm sorry you disagree wth their fundraising tactics. If you have a better idea perhaps you should send them an e-mail explaining how to do it better. Rutan does have a track record of hiring people who come up with innovative ideas, you just might get a new job out of it.
Sarevok wrote:But shroom you dont understand. This company is rich. If they wanted spacecraft they could have built one. Instead they are wasting their time and money building a dead end machine. That is something to be discouraged not considered as inspiring.
Actually, they did build a spacecraft. A reusable spacecraft with a turn-around time under two weeks. No one else has ever done that. And they did it for less money! In a cave! With a box of scraps! Well, OK, in a hangar with a box of scraps. YOU don't find that inspiring but you don't speak for those of us that do find it inspiring.
What the fuck do you know about what goes into spacecraft, anyhow? Do you think it's just a matter of strapping a rocket to your ass, holding your breath when you hit vacuum, and hoping you'll survive? You fucking ignorant tool.
Again, SS2 is a fund-raising device. As I said - cost is projected at $100,000 a seat, ticket price is $200,000. Do you see how this makes a profit? That's $800,000 profit per flight. Do you know how many people have made down payments on a ticket? 80,000. That's 80,000,000,000 towards the next phase. OK, realistically, not everyone who makes a downpayment will actually follow through, but if even just half do that's still 40 billion dollars! NOW do you understand how this works and what they're doing? These guys developed and built a working sub-orbital craft for 1/5 the cost of a new commercial airliner. What do you think their limits are if you give them 40 billion dollars? That's enough to build 26 X-15's. Or 23 space shuttles.
Is this becoming at all clearer to you?