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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)


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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-26 03:10pm
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
That could be part of the reason, but a lot of the OP era tech was being upgraded to LOTF era tech that was specifically stated to be superior in some meaningful way.


I'd guess that the LOTF-era tech is more of an improvement on the old (more efficient, slightly longer ranges, etc) rather than the newfangled thing you make it out to be.

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Why would GA troopers be trained to deal with Jedi? They're like on the same side.


Because Jedi and Sith have similar combat tactics? Because even the most disiplined individual can snap during a war?

Quote:
But there's more than 62 Jedi in the NJO, and taking flagships and other key vessels could be very effective.


And of those 62 Jedi, 12 of them were Masters. Seems like a unique scenario to me.

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Actually, apparently whoever designed the stealth x's thought of this. Shadow bombs could be activated by the Force and would not give off heat emmisions. IDK about the heat emissions they give off upon moving, but I'd think that they took care of that issue too.


Okay. How many stealth x-wings are there?



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-26 03:17pm
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Imperial528 wrote:
I'd guess that the LOTF-era tech is more of an improvement on the old (more efficient, slightly longer ranges, etc) rather than the newfangled thing you make it out to be.


Since when did I claim LOTF era tech to be a "newfangled" thing over OT era tech?

Quote:
Because Jedi and Sith have similar combat tactics? Because even the most disiplined individual can snap during a war?


Actually, in LOTF it seems as though the public at large doesn't even know what sith are.

Quote:


And of those 62 Jedi, 12 of them were Masters. Seems like a unique scenario to me.



Yet that isn't the lower limit to taking a star destroyer; they took it in a matter of minutes. 50 Jedi Knights could realistically do it as well, although maybe with a little more difficulty.

Quote:


Okay. How many stealth x-wings are there?


Probably enough for all the Jedi Masters, Jedi Knights and maybe the Padawans. Several squadrons were used in single battles. IIrc every Jedi Master and Knight mentioned in LOTF had a stealth x. In Fate of the Jedi: Allies they had plans to evacuate the Jedi Temple (although they couldn't because the seiging forces had turbolasers). The majority of the Jedi were there, and they wouldn't evacuate if they couldn't get every Jedi out, implying that there are enough stealth x's to fit all the Jedi in the NJO. 62 assaulted a star destroyer, and I doubt that they'd send any more than 1/4th of their stealth x's on a single attack.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-26 03:32pm
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Just to stick my nose in on the security forces vs Jedi issue...honestly, the GFFA would have to be idiotic NOT to at least attempt to train security forces on techniques that would be effective against Jedi. I accept that the GFFA being idiotic is a completely reasonable supposition; however, if I was a politician in a government with a bunch of laser-sword-wielding mages running around doing things because of the "Will of the Force," I'd damn well start firing upper leadership of any government security agency that didn't address the potential issue of the mages in question deciding to "go rogue." Or a Force user who isn't a Jedi causing problems for that matter. It wouldn't even need to be a Sith, in particular.

If anyone complained about it, I could shut them down with two simple words. "Kyp Durron."

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-26 07:27pm
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
1. There are several quotes saying that LOTF era tech was far more advanced than OT era tech.
2. A lot of the OT era tech had been replaced by the LOTF era tech, and why would they do that if the former was more advanced? The tech wasn't lost or anything, so therefore the LOTF era tech must have been better in some way.
3. LOTF era tech had gimmicks that wasn't available in OT era tech, such as long range turbolasers and 0.4 class hyperdrives.


But there's no meat on the bones that actually shows Legacy ships to be better. 0.25 hyperdrives existed and long range turbolasers are irrelevant when you have the speed of hyperdrive. All the improvements appear to be minor, like the battery placement on the Pellaeon-class. Or what about the Predator? What is actually supposed to make that silly thing better than a TIE Advanced? The Majestic-class is from the New Class program, not Legacy, and it sucks badly. Their one trick is better accuracy at range, which is what things like the TIE Fire Control and EW is for. The Viscount is from the NJO era, not Legacy, and while an impressive ship, it doesn't quite match an Executor-class. The BAC is also from NJO, and was both designed to be better than a Vic II and delivers, but that's not terribly impressive for a ~50 years and many battles newer design. Also, the smaller ship trick is not indicative of improved technology. An ISD carries six years worth, a Nebula only six months. It's no wonder they designed the Hajen supply ship.

Regenerative shields... bah. Several concepts of making your shields last longer already existed, including regenerating shields and the Mon Calamari backup shields. As listed in the SOTG Saga Edition.

At most I would say Legacy ships make are a bit more modern on the average (duh). The tech base appears to be identical.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-26 09:26pm
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
Since when did I claim LOTF era tech to be a "newfangled" thing over OT era tech?


Throughout the entire thread you have made vague references to it being more advanced and thus completely and entirely superior despite the fact that the only specific examples do not have systems witch are demonstratively better in any way or form presented so far.

Quote:
Actually, in LOTF it seems as though the public at large doesn't even know what sith are.


That doesn't present the people in charge of the military training from knowing. In RL, few commoners know just how dangerous a battlefield is, which doesn't stop drill sergeants from knowing.

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Yet that isn't the lower limit to taking a star destroyer; they took it in a matter of minutes. 50 Jedi Knights could realistically do it as well, although maybe with a little more difficulty.


I doubt it would be so easy with 50 Knights. Jedi Masters are vastly more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable than any twenty or so Knights. And a Jedi is a costly investment.

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Probably enough for all the Jedi Masters, Jedi Knights and maybe the Padawans. Several squadrons were used in single battles. IIrc every Jedi Master and Knight mentioned in LOTF had a stealth x. In Fate of the Jedi: Allies they had plans to evacuate the Jedi Temple (although they couldn't because the seiging forces had turbolasers). The majority of the Jedi were there, and they wouldn't evacuate if they couldn't get every Jedi out, implying that there are enough stealth x's to fit all the Jedi in the NJO. 62 assaulted a star destroyer, and I doubt that they'd send any more than 1/4th of their stealth x's on a single attack.


How many does it take to take down an Imperator-I or Imperator-II class ISD? And let's not forget that every time you lose a Stealth X-wing you lose a Jedi too.

Also, I would like the source for the stealth x-wings, since I can't find it on Wookiepedia and I know that my Guide to Vehicles and Vessels does not contain it, and nor did the old version last time I read it.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-27 02:39pm
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Imperial528 wrote:

Throughout the entire thread you have made vague references to it being more advanced and thus completely and entirely superior despite the fact that the only specific examples do not have systems witch are demonstratively better in any way or form presented so far.


Huh? LOTF era tech has numerous improvements over OT era tech. Is it by thousands of years? No, but it is superior.

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That doesn't present the people in charge of the military training from knowing. In RL, few commoners know just how dangerous a battlefield is, which doesn't stop drill sergeants from knowing.



Actually, Cha Niathal, the Supreme Commander and joint Chief of State, barely knew what a sith was. ;)

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I doubt it would be so easy with 50 Knights. Jedi Masters are vastly more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable than any twenty or so Knights. And a Jedi is a costly investment.



Well, the capabilities of Jedi vary from Jedi to Jedi, but those 62 Jedi took a star destroyer within minutes with no mentioned casualties. It certainly isn't a lower limit.

Quote:

How many does it take to take down an Imperator-I or Imperator-II class ISD? And let's not forget that every time you lose a Stealth X-wing you lose a Jedi too.

Also, I would like the source for the stealth x-wings, since I can't find it on Wookiepedia and I know that my Guide to Vehicles and Vessels does not contain it, and nor did the old version last time I read it.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/StealthX

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-27 11:06pm
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
Huh? LOTF era tech has numerous improvements over OT era tech. Is it by thousands of years? No, but it is superior.


But not by any margin which would matter in combat. You have yet to demonstrate that weapon yields, accuracy, range, or ship durability have gone up significantly in the fifty or so years since Imperial ships stopped being mass-produced.

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Actually, Cha Niathal, the Supreme Commander and joint Chief of State, barely knew what a sith was. ;)


Last I checked, high-ups do not train soldiers.

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Well, the capabilities of Jedi vary from Jedi to Jedi, but those 62 Jedi took a star destroyer within minutes with no mentioned casualties. It certainly isn't a lower limit.


50 Jedi with twelve of the best Jedi of the times. You keep brushing the latter over as if it means nothing. Fifty Jedi is hardly something to laugh about, but I'm willing to bet that the high performance in your single example is due to having the whole fucking Jedi Council in the mission.

Quote:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/StealthX


It notes in the wiki that if the pilot uses a torpedo which is not a stealth version (which was stated to not always be available) the craft is essentially lit up like a light, same if the pilot uses the comlink. That said, it never said anything about the ability to hide reactor heat signatures, which presents a vulnerability.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-27 11:56pm
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Imperial528 wrote:

But not by any margin which would matter in combat. You have yet to demonstrate that weapon yields, accuracy, range, or ship durability have gone up significantly in the fifty or so years since Imperial ships stopped being mass-produced.



Except that Lotf era tech were stated to be superior and were shown to be superior, and since they were mass produced it is by a margin large enough for them to be worth producing.
Quote:

Last I checked, high-ups do not train soldiers.



Yet they would be expected to know about the opponents they are facing.

Daala may be anti Jedi, but there would not be much time for her to order gas troopers to have anti Jedi training without people finding out.

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50 Jedi with twelve of the best Jedi of the times. You keep brushing the latter over as
if it means nothing. Fifty Jedi is hardly something to laugh about, but I'm willing to bet that
the high performance in your single example is due to having the whole fucking Jedi
Council
in the mission.



That's debateable, but Jedi strikes can be carried out on important flagships.

Quote:

It notes in the wiki that if the pilot uses a torpedo which is not a stealth version (which was
stated to not always be available) the craft is essentially lit up like a light, same if the pilot
uses the comlink. That said, it never said anything about the ability to hide reactor heat
signatures, which presents a vulnerability.


Shadow bombs were widely available (relatively) and Jedi could communicate with Force Battle Melds.

Given the absurd amounts of heat that multi billion gigawatt reactors would generate, and that stealth x's did actually prove to be effective, the designers of the stealth x's seemed to have figured out a way to get past that, or else sensors would be detecting the stealth x's from solar systems away.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-28 06:20am
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It would still be ridiculously easy to find them by simply looking at the distortions of the background star field, which even our own comupters can do today.

Stealth in space really is a much more complicated thing than you seem to realize.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-28 09:04am
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
Shadow bombs were widely available (relatively) and Jedi could communicate with Force Battle Melds.


That's probably because they're merely dumbfire rockets.

Star Wars 888 wrote:
Given the absurd amounts of heat that multi billion gigawatt reactors would generate, and that stealth x's did actually prove to be effective, the designers of the stealth x's seemed to have figured out a way to get past that, or else sensors would be detecting the stealth x's from solar systems away.


Meh, as if stealth was anything new.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-28 02:07pm
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Patroklos wrote:
It would still be ridiculously easy to find them by simply looking at the distortions of the background star field, which even our own comupters can do today.


Actually, stealth x's are about the size of X wings (since they are like modified X wings), so it's hard to detect distortions in the middle of a battle.

Quote:

Stealth in space really is a much more complicated thing than you seem to realize.


Yet stealth x's are indeed stealthy in space. This is a canon fact. FTL travel 100 million times the speed of light and planet busting superweapons that would require more mass than the superweapon itself realistically would have is much more complicated that most people seem to realize, yet Star Wars has them.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-29 01:21am
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
Patroklos wrote:
It would still be ridiculously easy to find them by simply looking at the distortions of the background star field, which even our own comupters can do today.


Actually, stealth x's are about the size of X wings (since they are like modified X wings), so it's hard to detect distortions in the middle of a battle.

Quote:

Stealth in space really is a much more complicated thing than you seem to realize.


Yet stealth x's are indeed stealthy in space. This is a canon fact. FTL travel 100 million times the speed of light and planet busting superweapons that would require more mass than the superweapon itself realistically would have is much more complicated that most people seem to realize, yet Star Wars has them.


Their size or the presense of a battle are entirely irrelevant to a sensor system visually identifying them unless there is something physically in the way. In fact the presense of a fleet with multipe vantage points means it would be easier to make such a visual identification.

I am not sure why you think bringing up similarly stupid things makes the Stealth Xs any less stupid. At least with the cloaking devices the were honest about the two way blackout. Stealth Xs are apparently just wank not even pretending to be hidden. I do appreciate the comparison to the Death Star though, as given what you have said about the numbers and capabilities the Stealth Xs they really should be classified as a superweapon and disqualified from your comparison.

However, if we are going to boil this down to the most ridiculous wanktastic individual toys of each era, I raise your stupid Steath Xs with stupid Sun Crushers. Edge Empire.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-29 01:58am
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Is that your hand waving arguments? To claim that stealth x's are disqualified due to being superweapons without any reasonable reason as to why they are? They aren't any more wanking Than star destroyers and hyperdrives are.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-29 04:58am
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Magically invisible fighters, when it is a plank of the universe that such a think is not wihtin the normal technical capabilities of the universe (as we saw with teh cloaking device, itself a superweapon), would be a super weapon.

I liked how you brought up handwaving though, as thats exactly what you just did concerning the blatant flaw in the Stealth X concept. Or are you now going to tac on active camoflage, against multiple vantage points simultaneously, to its list of wank?

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-29 06:13am
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
Except that Lotf era tech were stated to be superior and were shown to be superior, and since they were mass produced it is by a margin large enough for them to be worth producing.


You haven't proven that it is superior in any effective way. It may be mass-produced because of a greater efficiency. Why use a sensor that takes 1 kilowatt when you can get the same ability on one which only uses 500 watts? Supply and demand.

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That's debateable, but Jedi strikes can be carried out on important flagships.


I sense a trap. And by that I mean suckering a large amount of jedi onto a ship and then making it self-destruct. Or just plunging it into the nearest star without shielding being up.

Quote:
Shadow bombs were widely available (relatively)


Prove that they were widely available enough to be a weapon you can rely on having.

Quote:
Given the absurd amounts of heat that multi billion gigawatt reactors would generate, and that stealth x's did actually prove to be effective, the designers of the stealth x's seemed to have figured out a way to get past that, or else sensors would be detecting the stealth x's from solar systems away.


The only thing which the Stealth X is capable of hiding is its engine emissions, most of its gravity distortion, and its visibility to the human eye. There is nothing about it being invisible to infrared sensors. And I'm sure that a good computer could pick it out among a star field on visible spectrum alone, since computers can easily recognize that the paint of the fighter, while to the naked eye would appear to be black space and stars from a distance, does not conform with the star charts of the area. Boom.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-29 07:35pm
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Imperial528 wrote:

You haven't proven that it is superior in any effective way. It may be mass-produced because of a greater efficiency. Why use a sensor that takes 1 kilowatt when you can get the same ability on one which only uses 500 watts? Supply and demand.



1. Evidence? I don't remember them mentioning cost efficiency as a factor for the tech change in between OT and LOTF.
2. Isn't cost efficiency important, and thus proving my point that LOTF era tech is better than OT era tech?


Quote:

I sense a trap. And by that I mean suckering a large amount of jedi onto a ship and then making it self-destruct. Or just plunging it into the nearest star without shielding being up.



Why would the admiral and crew on board agree to go along with that trap? Jedi would sense if the star destroyer didn't have any life forms on it.

Quote:

Prove that they were widely available enough to be a weapon you can rely on having.



The Jedi consistently used shadow bombs in numerous situations. There wasn't any indication that they were short on them.

Quote:


The only thing which the Stealth X is capable of hiding is its engine emissions, most of its gravity distortion, and its visibility to the human eye. There is nothing about it being invisible to infrared sensors. And I'm sure that a good computer could pick it out among a star field on visible spectrum alone, since computers can easily recognize that the paint of the fighter, while to the naked eye would appear to be black space and stars from a distance, does not conform with the star charts of the area. Boom.


Such distortions would be very hard to keep track of in a battlefield; they'd be using a lot of energy and power on computers to track small and fast moving distortion fields, and then manpower on crew to analyze and figure out if said distortion fields are stealth x's.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-29 09:23pm
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
1. Evidence? I don't remember them mentioning cost efficiency as a factor for the tech change in between OT and LOTF.
2. Isn't cost efficiency important, and thus proving my point that LOTF era tech is better than OT era tech?


1. Just speculating, since it is an order of magnitude higher than "lol LOTF is better" shit.
2. But, cost efficiency doesn't matter in this situation, since it will only make it slightly easier for the Galactic Alliance to replace ships and/or cut corners in construction. And they will lose many before denting Imperial forces, since you have yet to shown that anything which matters in a battle (ability to dish out and absorb punishment) has changed as drastically as you seem to think it has.

Quote:
Why would the admiral and crew on board agree to go along with that trap? Jedi would sense if the star destroyer didn't have any life forms on it.


For one, clones. Two, Dark Side, which has been shown to cloud the predictions of the Jedi before. Also, the trap doesn't have to be "blow up ship" it could consist of "pick off Jedi one by one" through means of clever traps such as gas, random airlocks opening, mines, and other shit. Or simply preventing them from boarding. Or getting crews to escape pods and having the ship destroyed. The possibilities for a trap are nearly endless.

Quote:
The Jedi consistently used shadow bombs in numerous situations. There wasn't any indication that they were short on them.


Do you have any information about the time, money, and labor costs required to make the bombs? Along with stockpile numbers?

Quote:
Such distortions would be very hard to keep track of in a battlefield; they'd be using a lot of energy and power on computers to track small and fast moving distortion fields, and then manpower on crew to analyze and figure out if said distortion fields are stealth x's.


The computer can analyze it very fast, and better yet, if a ship reports that it is under attack and conventional sensors cannot detect an enemy you know it's them. And the method I suggest could be performed by modern computers with frame-by-frame video analysis software. A similar technique is used in a "laser fence" which keeps mosquitoes out of a certain space by using cameras and infrared lasers. The cameras are connected to a laptop which sweeps what the camera sees for a black dot, usually around 1-2 pixels in size, makes sure nothing is surrounding it, and then tells the laser which corresponds to the camera which has detected a target to send a blast at the target which heats the mosquito up to the point where it dies (the blast is low enough power to kill the mosquito but not enough to harm anything else, a Human or animal wouldn't even feel it). It would be much easier to do this in a system where you know what is supposed to be there, since you can simply shoot what isn't. Note that modern laptops are capable of this. I doubt Imperial computers would be less capable.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-30 03:07am
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Star Wars 888 wrote:

The Jedi consistently used shadow bombs in numerous situations. There wasn't any indication that they were short on them.


Its irrelevant what a handful of Jedi, maybe a few hundred at most, can uses consistnatly. Thats still just a hundred odd fighters, ONE wing's worth, in a universe comparison where they will be facing hundreds of thousands of capital ships and billions of fighters. The Jedi could be be literally invincible and destroy ISDs with their mere gaze and it would still be irrelevant.

Lets use that force of 60 odd fighters you mentioned earlier, say each one of your wanktastic Stealth Xs can destroy one star destroyer by itself a day. No travel time, no defenses, none of the die, nothing but show up and destroy an ISD It would take more than a year (419 days) just for them to eat through the ISDs alone.

You are in minimalism territory now.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-30 03:47pm
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Imperial528 wrote:

1. Just speculating, since it is an order of magnitude higher than "lol LOTF is better" shit.
2. But, cost efficiency doesn't matter in this situation, since it will only make it slightly easier for the Galactic Alliance to replace ships and/or cut corners in construction. And they will lose many before denting Imperial forces, since you have yet to shown that anything which matters in a battle (ability to dish out and absorb punishment) has changed as drastically as you seem to think it has.



1. So you're admitting that you have no evidence to suggest that the tech comes from cost efficiency?
2. Long range turbolasers, beskar armor on some starfighters (dish out and absorb damage respectively).

Tie interceptors upgrading to starhunters.
X wings upgrading to newer X wings.
AT-ATs being upgraded to have light turbolasers.
E-11s iirc being upgraded.
New ships that weren't available in the OT being produced.
Prototype weapons in the OT being completed by LOTF.
Various gimmicks such as the Aing Tii having ships that can teleport.
The New Jedi Order
Stealth X's - in ANH (or was it ESB?) an imperial officer commented that "no ship that size (the Falcon) has a cloaking device!" and yet by LOTF stealth x's, even smaller starfighters, had cloaking devices.

Quote:

For one, clones.


Clones were rarely used by the OT.

Quote:
Two, Dark Side, which has been shown to cloud the predictions of the Jedi before.


Is Sidious with the invasion force? Because then that gives the Jedi the chance to take him out, and then the invasion force collapses.

Also, he only did that long term over time using a ritual, and it's doubtful that it would work on Jedi that know who he is.

Quote:
Also, the trap doesn't have to be "blow up ship" it could consist of "pick off Jedi one by one" through means of clever traps such as gas, random airlocks opening, mines, and other shit.


Caedus had backup plans to do many of the things you mentioned to attack the Jedi, and failed.

Quote:
Or simply preventing them from boarding.


Possibly, depending on the condition and readiness of the ship and its crew.

Quote:
Or getting crews to escape pods and having the ship destroyed. The possibilities for a trap are nearly endless.


Yet the Jedi took that star destroyer in a matter of minutes.

Quote:

Do you have any information about the time, money, and labor costs required to make the bombs? Along with stockpile numbers?


Again, there is no indication that there was a shortage of shadow bombs.

Quote:

The computer can analyze it very fast, and better yet, if a ship reports that it is under attack and conventional sensors cannot detect an enemy you know it's them. And the method I suggest could be performed by modern computers with frame-by-frame video analysis software. A similar technique is used in a "laser fence" which keeps mosquitoes out of a certain space by using cameras and infrared lasers. The cameras are connected to a laptop which sweeps what the camera sees for a black dot, usually around 1-2 pixels in size, makes sure nothing is surrounding it, and then tells the laser which corresponds to the camera which has detected a target to send a blast at the target which heats the mosquito up to the point where it dies (the blast is low enough power to kill the mosquito but not enough to harm anything else, a Human or animal wouldn't even feel it). It would be much easier to do this in a system where you know what is supposed to be there, since you can simply shoot what isn't. Note that modern laptops are capable of this. I doubt Imperial computers would be less capable.


1. The Empire wouldn't have computers to do this since, as shown by that quote about the Falcon not being able to have a cloaking device, they were not used to dealing with cloaking devices, especially on starfighters as small as a stealth x. To develop them would take quite a while.

2. Jamming.

3. The gunners on star destroyers have a hard time hitting Jedi that are piloting stealth x's even when they are close, can see them and are being amped by battle meditation.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-08-30 06:35pm
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
1. So you're admitting that you have no evidence to suggest that the tech comes from cost efficiency?
2. Long range turbolasers, beskar armor on some starfighters (dish out and absorb damage respectively).


1. Yes, speculation implies that.
2. How much improvement on the range? And how much better is beskar than normal armor?
Quote:
Tie interceptors upgrading to starhunters.
X wings upgrading to newer X wings.


Specific improvements, please.

Quote:
AT-ATs being upgraded to have light turbolasers.


Which was done by the Empire, although after Endor but not, IIRC, during the era you speak of.
Quote:
E-11s iirc being upgraded.


To what extent?

Quote:
New ships that weren't available in the OT being produced.


Which are better to what extent?

Quote:
Prototype weapons in the OT being completed by LOTF.


Ditto.

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Various gimmicks such as the Aing Tii having ships that can teleport.


Which won't help.

Quote:
The New Jedi Order


Points for that one, I guess.
Quote:
Stealth X's - in ANH (or was it ESB?) an imperial officer commented that "no ship that size (the Falcon) has a cloaking device!" and yet by LOTF stealth x's, even smaller starfighters, had cloaking devices.


They don't. They're like B-2 stealth bombers IN SPACE.

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Clones were rarely used by the OT.


Imperial 501st Legion.

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Is Sidious with the invasion force? Because then that gives the Jedi the chance to take him out, and then the invasion force collapses.

Also, he only did that long term over time using a ritual, and it's doubtful that it would work on Jedi that know who he is.


IIRC, during the OT Yoda could not clearly see much of the future at all despite knowing exactly who and what Sidious is.

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Caedus had backup plans to do many of the things you mentioned to attack the Jedi, and failed.


Failed due to incompetence or otherwise?
Quote:
Possibly, depending on the condition and readiness of the ship and its crew.


"Dude, look, scum!"
*Gunner fires*
"Dude, promotion!"

Unless they attempt a boarding during a large fleet engagement, the above is likely to occur.

Quote:
Yet the Jedi took that star destroyer in a matter of minutes.


Because they had the Council with them, which means that while you can do it to one ship that fast, it is not a reliable tactic over time.


Quote:
1. The Empire wouldn't have computers to do this since, as shown by that quote about the Falcon not being able to have a cloaking device, they were not used to dealing with cloaking devices, especially on starfighters as small as a stealth x. To develop them would take quite a while.

2. Jamming.

3. The gunners on star destroyers have a hard time hitting Jedi that are piloting stealth x's even when they are close, can see them and are being amped by battle meditation.


1. The Falcon hid in a sensor blind spot, idiot. And as said, Stealth X's are hard to see, but not in anyways cloaked. And any computer capable of dealing with visual information (Astromechs, protocol droids, the list is nearly endless in SW) could easily be modified to do so given the abilities of SW programming, which can also be done by a computer.

2. Jamming doesn't affect visual and infrared sensors. Unless you manage to get obscene amounts of materials opaque to them in the space around the ship.

3. Prove that a computer-guided missile or laser cannon wouldn't.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-09-03 03:22pm
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Imperial528 wrote:


Specific improvements, please.



By specific they'd say stuff such as "faster, more maneuverable, deadlier" and occasionally a gimmick.

Quote:

Which was done by the Empire, although after Endor but not, IIRC, during the era you speak of.



And the Remnant is in this scenario.

Quote:
To what extent?



To a great enough extent to be worth reconfiguring their factories to produce that newer and likely more expensive weapon.

Quote:
Which are better to what extent?


CW and OT era tech are viewed as outdated, even to the untrained eye.

Quote:

Ditto.

Which won't help.



Because you say so?

Quote:

Points for that one, I guess.
They don't. They're like B-2 stealth bombers IN SPACE.



More like tactical stealth fighter-bombers piloted by supernatural humans in space.

Quote:


Imperial 501st Legion.



Eventually even the clones in the 501st were being replaced by clones from various genetic templates that weren't as competent as Jango's genes.

Quote:


IIRC, during the OT Yoda could not clearly see much of the future at all despite knowing exactly who and what Sidious is.



Since when?

Quote:

Failed due to incompetence or otherwise?



The crew followed Caedus's orders and instructions and yet failed.

Quote:

"Dude, look, scum!"
*Gunner fires*
"Dude, promotion!"



Stealth X's are about as fast as X wings and have stealth systems. If it were as easy as you claim, why did star destroyers have such difficulty in fending off X wings?

Quote:

Unless they attempt a boarding during a large fleet engagement, the above is likely to occur.



LOTF disproves that idea.

Quote:

Because they had the Council with them, which means that while you can do it to one ship that fast, it is not a reliable tactic over time.



Actually, if done properly it is.

1. There would be a big morale drop to the imperials when they know that they can be pwned almost any moment.
2. Stealth tracking computers and heightened alert would be implemented. The former takes power, the latter takes sleep and crew.
3. Capturing flag ships could be vital.

Quote:




1. The Falcon hid in a sensor blind spot, idiot. And as said, Stealth X's are hard to see, but not in anyways cloaked. And any computer capable of dealing with visual information (Astromechs, protocol droids, the list is nearly endless in SW) could easily be modified to do so given the abilities of SW programming, which can also be done by a computer.



Don't call me an idiot when you made a claim as a rebuttal and admitted that your claim was pure speculation. LOTF disproves the rest of your post; even when being amped by Caedus's considerably powerful battle meditation, the gunners on star destroyers were hard pressed to hit stealth x's.

Quote:


2. Jamming doesn't affect visual and infrared sensors. Unless you manage to get obscene amounts of materials opaque to them in the space around the ship.


Clearly they were able to reduce the heat emissions of the stealth x's; in LOTF Invincible star destroyers within a few thousand and possibly tens of thousands of kilometers could not detect stealth x's. If stealth x's still had large noticeable heat emissions, this wouldn't have happened; they would have been detected from star systems away.

Quote:

3. Prove that a computer-guided missile or laser cannon wouldn't.


Stealth systems, and jamming. This is shown in LOTF when, instead of using computer automated turbolasers, they used manual gunners. The excuse that is used for this and many other moments is jamming (which IMO is an excuse to still have gunners and such in a space age fictional society, but that's OOU).

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-09-03 08:42pm
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
By specific they'd say stuff such as "faster, more maneuverable, deadlier" and occasionally a gimmick.


But is the dialogue accurate? More importantly, where is such dialogue?

Quote:
And the Remnant is in this scenario.


And on what side?

Quote:
To a great enough extent to be worth reconfiguring their factories to produce that newer and likely more expensive weapon.


But are such reconfigurations needed because of combat-affecting differences? Hell, if a design just looks different from the previous one you may need to reconfigure quite a few machines, even if there is almost no functional change. This is true in RL, an example would be how some keyboards have rounded edges and curved bodies whilst others have sharp edges and flat bodies. They both do the same fucking thing, but for a factory that used to make the more rectangular kinds it would have to get new molds for the plastic parts for each machine and new manipulators on the machines which assemble the keyboards to be able to assemble the rounded kinds.

So for all I know, they made the E-11 lighter and more ergonomic, or expanded its clip size and the area where the clip goes to match.

Quote:
CW and OT era tech are viewed as outdated, even to the untrained eye.


Old or outdated? And is the dialogue which you draw your statement from supported by the rest of the piece? I want quotes here.

Quote:
Because you say so?


Because the Aing-Tii are the most neutral force ever presented in SW, so they are unlikely to help at all in any conflict unless they are directly attacked, which even then they'll probably just try and fend it off. Heck, the SW wiki states that they only leave their territory to attack slavers.

Quote:
More like tactical stealth fighter-bombers piloted by supernatural humans in space.


It is still very limited stealth when compared to true cloaking.

Quote:
Eventually even the clones in the 501st were being replaced by clones from various genetic templates that weren't as competent as Jango's genes.


Prove that they were not as competent (IIRC they only cloned Stormtroopers who were essentially the best of the best). Also, they are still clones nonetheless.

Quote:
Since when?


I'll answer this tomorrow, when I have time to re-watch Episode V.

Quote:
The crew followed Caedus's orders and instructions and yet failed.


I see.

Quote:
Stealth X's are about as fast as X wings and have stealth systems. If it were as easy as you claim, why did star destroyers have such difficulty in fending off X wings?


1. I was talking about transports, nitwit.
2. You mean ignoring x-wings? Since normal x-wings are pretty much useless against an ISD, as is made obvious in the OT during the evacuation of Hoth.

Quote:
LOTF disproves that idea.


How?

Quote:
Actually, if done properly it is.

1. There would be a big morale drop to the imperials when they know that they can be pwned almost any moment.
2. Stealth tracking computers and heightened alert would be implemented. The former takes power, the latter takes sleep and crew.
3. Capturing flag ships could be vital.


But can they do it so easily with standard Jedi?

Quote:
Don't call me an idiot when you made a claim as a rebuttal and admitted that your claim was pure speculation. LOTF disproves the rest of your post; even when being amped by Caedus's considerably powerful battle meditation, the gunners on star destroyers were hard pressed to hit stealth x's.


I'm talking about computer tracking numb skull. Not gunners, and not at all related to my speculation about a completely different subject in the debate. And said speculation was being used as an example since you didn't present any solid data or quotes.

Quote:
Clearly they were able to reduce the heat emissions of the stealth x's; in LOTF Invincible star destroyers within a few thousand and possibly tens of thousands of kilometers could not detect stealth x's. If stealth x's still had large noticeable heat emissions, this wouldn't have happened; they would have been detected from star systems away.
Quote:

Very well then (I'm not going to ask how, despite that with the power levels of x-wings and fighters in general that waste heat has to go somewhere). They will still present a disruption on the visible light spectrum, although that would be harder to notice by a human crew.

Quote:
Stealth systems, and jamming. This is shown in LOTF when, instead of using computer automated turbolasers, they used manual gunners. The excuse that is used for this and many other moments is jamming (which IMO is an excuse to still have gunners and such in a space age fictional society, but that's OOU).


If a gun is connected to the same computer which is detecting a craft using a VISUAL LIGHT distortion then jamming will do shit for the stealth x-wings, as jamming in SW has not been shown to affect the visible spectrum. All the program needs to do is feed the turret X,Y,Z, coordinate data and target velocity and tell it to open fire. And stealth x-wings have NO cloaking devices, they are incapable of rendering themselves cloaked to all sensors and light, they use passive systems which minimize what can detect them, but it doesn't make them outright disappear.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-09-03 10:33pm
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Ah shit, accidentally butchered my quote, it should look like this:

Quote:
Clearly they were able to reduce the heat emissions of the stealth x's; in LOTF Invincible star destroyers within a few thousand and possibly tens of thousands of kilometers could not detect stealth x's. If stealth x's still had large noticeable heat emissions, this wouldn't have happened; they would have been detected from star systems away.


Very well then (I'm not going to ask how, despite that with the power levels of x-wings and fighters in general that waste heat has to go somewhere). They will still present a disruption on the visible light spectrum, although that would be harder to notice by a human crew.

Quote:
Stealth systems, and jamming. This is shown in LOTF when, instead of using computer automated turbolasers, they used manual gunners. The excuse that is used for this and many other moments is jamming (which IMO is an excuse to still have gunners and such in a space age fictional society, but that's OOU).


If a gun is connected to the same computer which is detecting a craft using a VISUAL LIGHT distortion then jamming will do shit for the stealth x-wings, as jamming in SW has not been shown to affect the visible spectrum. All the program needs to do is feed the turret X,Y,Z, coordinate data and target velocity and tell it to open fire. And stealth x-wings have NO cloaking devices, they are incapable of rendering themselves cloaked to all sensors and light, they use passive systems which minimize what can detect them, but it doesn't make them outright disappear.



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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-09-06 03:03pm
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Imperial528 wrote:

But is the dialogue accurate? More importantly, where is such dialogue?



The dialogue is in many different books from various PoV's.

Quote:

And on what side?



On the LOTF era galaxy side.

Quote:


But are such reconfigurations needed because of combat-affecting differences? Hell, if a design just looks different from the previous one you may need to reconfigure quite a few machines, even if there is almost no functional change. This is true in RL, an example would be how some keyboards have rounded edges and curved bodies whilst others have sharp edges and flat bodies. They both do the same fucking thing, but for a factory that used to make the more rectangular kinds it would have to get new molds for the plastic parts for each machine and new manipulators on the machines which assemble the keyboards to be able to assemble the rounded kinds.

So for all I know, they made the E-11 lighter and more ergonomic, or expanded its clip size and the area where the clip goes to match.



All of the things you mentioned actually do matter in a war.

Quote:

Old or outdated? And is the dialogue which you draw your statement from supported by the rest of the piece? I want quotes here.



Generally they say outdated. Quote from Caedus: "Ancient hardware. They're getting desperate."

Quote:

Because the Aing-Tii are the most neutral force ever presented in SW, so they are unlikely to help at all in any conflict unless they are directly attacked, which even then they'll probably just try and fend it off. Heck, the SW wiki states that they only leave their territory to attack slavers.



Maybe, although in the OP the LOTF era galaxy is united, I suppose that the Aing Tii would have little reason to intervene.

Quote:

It is still very limited stealth when compared to true cloaking.



"true" cloaking? Stealth X's are among the most advanced cloaked starfighters in Star Wars.

Quote:

Prove that they were not as competent (IIRC they only cloned Stormtroopers who were essentially the best of the best). Also, they are still clones nonetheless.



It's only one legion, and I highly doubt that the Empire found several people as skilled as Jango Fett in a few years. Also, the nanovirus used in LOTF: Invincible could absolutely devastate a cloned force.

Quote:

I'll answer this tomorrow, when I have time to re-watch Episode V.



It's been a day. ;)

Quote:

I see.



Yep, which means that an imperial officer would not have much of a chance of doing any better.

Quote:


1. I was talking about transports, nitwit.
2. You mean ignoring x-wings? Since normal x-wings are pretty much useless against an ISD, as is made obvious in the OT during the evacuation of Hoth.



1. What?
2. Yet star destroyers would still often try and fire at them, and hit only at a very small rate.

Quote:

How?



The gunners on the star destroyers hit the stealth x's at a very small rate.

Quote:

But can they do it so easily with standard Jedi?



Actually, they probably can.

Quote:


I'm talking about computer tracking numb skull. Not gunners, and not at all related to my speculation about a completely different subject in the debate. And said speculation was being used as an example since you didn't present any solid data or quotes.



*sigh*. If tracking computers worked on stealth X's, why did star destroyers use gunners to combat them? Clearly their stealth systems and jamming devices can defeat targeting computers.

Quote:


Very well then (I'm not going to ask how, despite that with the power levels of x-wings and fighters in general that waste heat has to go somewhere). They will still present a disruption on the visible light spectrum, although that would be harder to notice by a human crew.



So if star destroyers have a hard time hitting regular X wings, how are they going to consistently hit stealth x's piloted by Jedi?

Quote:

If a gun is connected to the same computer which is detecting a craft using a VISUAL LIGHT distortion then jamming will do shit for the stealth x-wings, as jamming in SW has not been shown to affect the visible spectrum. All the program needs to do is feed the turret X,Y,Z, coordinate data and target velocity and tell it to open fire. And stealth x-wings have NO cloaking devices, they are incapable of rendering themselves cloaked to all sensors and light, they use passive systems which minimize what can detect them, but it doesn't make them outright disappear.


Except that the Jedi piloting the stealth x's will not fly in a predictable direction that a computer can track.

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 Post subject: Re: The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a wa PostPosted: 2010-09-06 03:04pm
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(oops, double post. The rebuttal is on the previous post.)

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