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 Post subject: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:19pm
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(sorry if this is in the wrong place, I don't know where else to put it)

(if this semi rant annoys you, then I'm sorry, you can simply ignore this rant)

I've encountered twilight fans and engaged in a Star Wars vs Twilight debate. More specifically, a Jedi vs Twilight vampires debate. They started off with a wrong but tolerable stance that the vampires could defeat the Jedi. They used evidence showing that Edward could run at 9000 mph, which I countered by showing the difference between long distance speed and combat speed.

Me and some of the Star Wars supporters used the idea of Force pull + lightsaber stab, which we reasonably claimed would allow the Jedi to pwn the vampires, since the latter would have no defense against this tactic. However, the Twilight supporters started claiming that the vampires could dodge or resist the Force. They also claimed that the vampires would defeat all the Jedi using their uber speed before the Jedi get a chance to react. This is wrong; the Force can't be dodged and can't be resisted simply by physical strength, and even if the vampires could run at 9000 mph in a fight that wouldn't be fast enough, especially since the Jedi have pre cognition.

They start getting annoying, especially one that keeps on saying "oh your argument isn't worth responding to" and "oh it's been debunked already" (but refuses to show the post where he supposedly debunked it).

In PMs he/she got a little ridiculous by claiming that Edward could solo the Jedi Order. In the thread he/she started stating that modern day missile systems could shoot down Jedi starfighters (strangely he/she thinks that the vampires would somehow get access to missile systems from Earth when the OP states that the battle takes place in the Jedi Temple)


(note that this guy didn't have the moral high ground either; he/she was insulting me and other Star Wars supporters)




Then, in PMs, he/she stated (seriously) that Benjamin and Renata could conquer the Star Wars galaxy. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:21pm
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I...really don't think debating these people is worth it.



"No, no, no, no! Light speed's too slow! Yes, we're gonna have to go right to... Ludicrous speed!"

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:30pm
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I haven't seen twilight (nor do I want to) but what is his evidence of 9000mph? Unless the vampire is causing sonic booms and is surrounded by a glowing cloud of superheated air (he's going about half the space shuttle's re-entry speed), I highly doubt this claim.



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Chuck Norris played Russian Roulette with a fully loaded revolver.... and won.
Chuck Norris can slam a revolving door.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:32pm
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Wouldn't 9000 mph in atmosphere be enough to crush and burn a human body? And how the fuck do they think vampires could resist the force? There's absolutely no sane reason beyond fanwank to think that they could. And SW fighters can survive multi-kiloton shots. Maybe a modern day nuke could hurt one, but anti-air missiles couldn't. Never mind the fact that a bunch of emo cannibals couldn't get anti-air missiles.



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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:41pm
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Jake wrote:
I haven't seen twilight (nor do I want to) but what is his evidence of 9000mph? Unless the vampire is causing sonic booms and is surrounded by a glowing cloud of superheated air (he's going about half the space shuttle's re-entry speed), I highly doubt this claim.


Well apparently Edward ran a very long distance in a short amount of time, and the speed was calculated to be around 9000 mph. However, being able to run that fast in a long distance run does not equate to being able to actually fight that fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:44pm
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Where did he run and what was the time-span? If there is a youtube link that would be awesome too, so I could analyze it myself.



If you can see Chuck Norris, he can see you. If you can't see Chuck Norris, you may be only seconds away from death.
Chuck Norris' chief export is pain.
They once made a Chuck Norris toilet paper, but it wouldn't take shit from anybody.
Chuck Norris played Russian Roulette with a fully loaded revolver.... and won.
Chuck Norris can slam a revolving door.
Chuck Norris once visited the Virgin Islands. They are now the Islands.
Chuck Norris doesn't sleep, he waits.
Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad Chuck Norris has never cried. Ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:50pm
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Jake wrote:
I haven't seen twilight (nor do I want to) but what is his evidence of 9000mph? Unless the vampire is causing sonic booms and is surrounded by a glowing cloud of superheated air (he's going about half the space shuttle's re-entry speed), I highly doubt this claim.

No can do. Clark and Bart over in 'Smallville' ROUTINELY move at speeds making 9000 mph look tame by comparison with nothing more but a mild breeze to indicate their passing. I don't know Twilight either but IF there is uncontroversible evidence of the vampires moving that fast (like, say, one of them having moved 900 miles in 6 minutes) the lack of the side effects that SHOULD be there in the real world simply doesn't matter. This ISN'T the real world.
That being said, you CAN resist at least some aspects of the force. Telekinetic attacks can be worked against via muscle power (Thrawn resisting an admittedly rather weak Force Choke by Mara in TTT), IF you have the muscle power. Fat lot of good that will do you against a REAL Force user but it IS technically possible.
You can most definitely NOT dodge the Force. Telekinetically thrown projectiles? Yes,if they are slow or you are fast enough (the pieces of surrounding equipment Vader threw at Luke in the Bespin battle weren't exactly traveling at the speed of sound). Dodge a DIRECT telekinetic attack like throwing you into a wall or tearing your head off (yeah, okay, unlikely for Jedi)-no way. In fact OTHER than ethics there's nothing to keep a Jedi from TK glueing the vampire to a wall (unless they have the strength to fight TK than can move multiton objects low end, topple an AT-AT, or rip hull plates off a Star Wars level battlecruiser) and simply cutting the vampire in really tiny pieces (as I said I don't know Twilight, what does it take to permakill their brand of vampire?)



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'


Last edited by Batman on 2010-08-11 06:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:50pm
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Jake wrote:
Where did he run and what was the time-span? If there is a youtube link that would be awesome too, so I could analyze it myself.


Well I'm not the one that made the 9000 mph claim, but however did stated that Edward got there before Belle in a commercial airliner did, and that the distance and time would mean that Edward was going at about 9000 mph.

That still doesn't grant the vampires a win though, especially the ridiculous claim that Edward could solo the Jedi Order and the even more ridiculous claim that Renata and Benjamin could conquer the Star Wars galaxy.

Or their claims that the vampires could take down 2 AT-ATs (he/she refused to give an explanation, saying that it was obvious, a common avoidance tactic) and that a vampires could solo the 501st or that the vampires could take down a star destroyer (well, he/she admitted that it could only happen if they got inside).

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:55pm
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Quote:

Well I'm not the one that made the 9000 mph claim, but however did stated that Edward got there before Belle in a commercial airliner did, and that the distance and time would mean that Edward was going at about 9000 mph.

That proves nothing. Edward may simply have known where she was going and taken another commercial airliner that arrived before Belle's.



If you can see Chuck Norris, he can see you. If you can't see Chuck Norris, you may be only seconds away from death.
Chuck Norris' chief export is pain.
They once made a Chuck Norris toilet paper, but it wouldn't take shit from anybody.
Chuck Norris played Russian Roulette with a fully loaded revolver.... and won.
Chuck Norris can slam a revolving door.
Chuck Norris once visited the Virgin Islands. They are now the Islands.
Chuck Norris doesn't sleep, he waits.
Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad Chuck Norris has never cried. Ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 06:56pm
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The Vortex Empire wrote:
And SW fighters can survive multi-kiloton shots. Maybe a modern day nuke could hurt one, but anti-air missiles couldn't. Never mind the fact that a bunch of emo cannibals couldn't get anti-air missiles.

I vote he GIVES them antiair missiles. WITH nuclear warheads. Because I want to see how the vapire heads try to explain how a modern day SAM/AAM, no matter the payload, can catch a vehicle that can get orbital from the ground in a matter of SECONDS :D



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 07:04pm
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Jake wrote:
Quote:
Well I'm not the one that made the 9000 mph claim, but however did stated that Edward got there before Belle in a commercial airliner did, and that the distance and time would mean that Edward was going at about 9000 mph.

That proves nothing. Edward may simply have known where she was going and taken another commercial airliner that arrived before Belle's.

Not without more information but as we BOTH don't know Twilight it might very well be that he DID find out at a late enough point in time (say, a goodly number of hours AFTER she boarded the plane) where she was going that it COULD be evidence for the claimed speed.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 07:13pm
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Quote:
Not without more information but as we BOTH don't know Twilight it might very well be that he DID find out at a late enough point in time (say, a goodly number of hours AFTER she boarded the plane) where she was going that it COULD be evidence for the claimed speed.

I realize that, which is why I asked for a detailed account of what happened, something more detailed then some random person's calculation.



If you can see Chuck Norris, he can see you. If you can't see Chuck Norris, you may be only seconds away from death.
Chuck Norris' chief export is pain.
They once made a Chuck Norris toilet paper, but it wouldn't take shit from anybody.
Chuck Norris played Russian Roulette with a fully loaded revolver.... and won.
Chuck Norris can slam a revolving door.
Chuck Norris once visited the Virgin Islands. They are now the Islands.
Chuck Norris doesn't sleep, he waits.
Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad Chuck Norris has never cried. Ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-11 08:18pm
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Fair enough.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 03:55am
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Well, to be fair, the idea that the vampires might be able to resist the Force is plausible, to some degree; they've all got assorted unique superpowers (telepathy, precognition, et cetera), so it might be possible for them to resist it with their own magical psychic powers.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 04:54am
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Star Wars 888 wrote:
This is wrong; the Force can't be dodged


That's a pretty extraordinary claim. Do you actually have evidence of telekinesis (this being the particular Force power you're referring to) propagating instantaneously?



What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 05:07am
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Ford Prefect wrote:
Star Wars 888 wrote:
This is wrong; the Force can't be dodged


That's a pretty extraordinary claim. Do you actually have evidence of telekinesis (this being the particular Force power you're referring to) propagating instantaneously?


In some of the video games, there's evidence that it doesn't, in fact. IIRC the Phantom Menace game showed the force pushes propagating away from you.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 05:13am
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Yeah, that's obvious in The Force Unleashed, too, and General Greivous actually does dodge telekinesis in Clone Wars. However, I doubt it's actually possible to establish this 'instant telekinesis' by actually looking at the films.



What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 01:25pm
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Given that the force surrounds everything I don't see why it shouldn't effect things instantly. If you wanted to force crush a sparkly vampire then the force doesn't take time to reach him, it starts crushing him.



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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 03:26pm
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The sparkly vampires are easily killed by what amount to over-sized wolves. The Jedi in the movies move with similar speed to these wolves and have the advantage of multiple weapons (lightsaber, direct force attack, and random objects) along with extensive combat training from a young age. Nothing I have seen from the Twilight vampires indicates any sort of combat skill other than they are a lot stronger than the average human.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 04:12pm
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Actually, Jedi can move considerably faster then the Wolfs from Twilight. Imagine the effect of a Jedi using Force speed down a hallway of Twlight Vampires, with a lightsaber in each hand....

And video games are low canon, remember? They are made for playability, not accuracy.
(Otherwise, lightside ending Starkiller is more powerful then Palpatine)

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 04:50pm
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Solauren wrote:
Actually, Jedi can move considerably faster then the Wolfs from Twilight. Imagine the effect of a Jedi using Force speed down a hallway of Twlight Vampires, with a lightsaber in each hand....

And video games are low canon, remember? They are made for playability, not accuracy.
(Otherwise, lightside ending Starkiller is more powerful then Palpatine)

I was basing the speed off of the dash we see Obi wan and Qui gon do in The Phantom Menace aboard the Trade Federation ship to escape the destroyer droids. You may be right about the jedi speed being faster but I have no desire to ever watch eclipse again to confirm.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 05:07pm
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On speed we also have examples of both Vader and Palpatine moving so fast that they can't be seen even by other fairly high level force users.



School requires more work than I remember it taking...

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 05:21pm
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That the battle with vampires vs werewolves in the new movie doesn't take place in the matter of a few seconds is proof enough that the claims about vampires being able to practice combat at supersonic speeds to be bullshit. Hell they can't even dodge attacks.



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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 05:26pm
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But could a Jedi win Bella's heart? Should she go for necrophilia, bestiality, or the guy from Tatooine who knows Jedi mind trick. Go team Skywalker!



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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars vs Twilight strange debates PostPosted: 2010-08-12 06:53pm
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Raxmei wrote:
But could a Jedi win Bella's heart? Should she go for necrophilia, bestiality, or the guy from Tatooine who knows Jedi mind trick. Go team Skywalker!


Given that Luke ended up marrying a feisty redhead who was just as combat-capable as he was and was once an elite Imperial Assassin, what makes you think he'd even be interested in little miss "my boyfriend is my only defining trait?"



And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks

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