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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 05:55am
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marsh8472 wrote:
A hydrogen bomb called Tsar Bomba could cause 3rd degree burns 62 miles away and it could be seen and felt 620 miles way. That only had a yield of only 50 megatons.


That goes under the assumption that Turbolasers release their energy in the same manner as a nuke, they don't.

A favorite tactic of people who think Megaton/Gigaton = Nuke, but that is not always the case.

Besides, the 200 gigaton figure is derived from the REQUIRED energy to perform a Base Delta Zero, a Canon Star Wars ship ability.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 06:08am
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Marsh, I don't know if you've replied to this, but just as a little experiment, go and look at your suggestion and count everytime there's a part where you should go "assuming that..." and tell us how many such parts you've found.

I'm pretty sure there's quite many.

Quote:
A hydrogen bomb called Tsar Bomba could cause 3rd degree burns 62 miles away and it could be seen and felt 620 miles way. That only had a yield of only 50 megatons.
it's alot easier to cause bad burns on humans (or other animals for that matter) then destroy structures and as it's already said turbolasers work differently from bombs and tbh "felt" is a rather vague term as I can feel the tremors from a controlled detonation (TNT or something similar) used in building stuff from quite a distance but still not be in any risk of harm from it.



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 07:21am
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Azron_Stoma wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:
A hydrogen bomb called Tsar Bomba could cause 3rd degree burns 62 miles away and it could be seen and felt 620 miles way. That only had a yield of only 50 megatons.


That goes under the assumption that Turbolasers release their energy in the same manner as a nuke, they don't.

A favorite tactic of people who think Megaton/Gigaton = Nuke, but that is not always the case.

Besides, the 200 gigaton figure is derived from the REQUIRED energy to perform a Base Delta Zero, a Canon Star Wars ship ability.


I noticed this issue was mentioned on the st-vs-sw site:

Quote:
Logical inference and back-engineering have also been brought into play to try to answer the many questions ICS produced. One such back-engineering effort was confirmed by some SpaceBattles posters who claimed to have e-mailed Saxton and learned where he got his 200 gigaton starship cannon yields. You see, if you count the non-canon Base Delta Zero, then take the most energetic possible mixture of the definition and other comments, and then insert a few baseless assumptions, you can get up into the 200 gigaton range for capital ship weapons depending on how many guns you divide it into. For example, if you take 64 heavy ISD guns (as per old non-canon sources) and 200 gigatons per shot, use Saxton's 1.7e24J BDZ firepower figure, and assume that the heavy guns fire once every minute, you get a half-hour (actually, 31 minute) BDZ. All you need is total planetary slagging within an hour, if not minutes, which is what Saxton argues for on his site's BDZ page (because he picks from the air the value of one orbit for a BDZ).

Thus, it seems pretty clear that Saxton's 200 gigaton figure is BDZ-related . . . fan-inflated non-canon in the place of canon fact. This must also have been how he determined that the Delta-7 Jedi fighter had one kiloton weapons . . . it's something of a compromise between the lack of such effect fighters have in the films, versus the requirement that fighters be at least capable of mildly annoying a capital ship.


As far as I can tell this BDZ appears in 3 novels and 1 star wars video game: c-cannon sources and not in absolute canon (g-canon). That explains why the firepower doesn't look like what we see on film.

Not that big of a deal when you consider what the romulan/cardassian fleet did to the founders homeworld in just a few moments.

Quote:
Marsh, I don't know if you've replied to this, but just as a little experiment, go and look at your suggestion and count everytime there's a part where you should go "assuming that..." and tell us how many such parts you've found.

I'm pretty sure there's quite many.


those are called axioms. That applys to everyone.

Quote:
it's alot easier to cause bad burns on humans (or other animals for that matter) then destroy structures and as it's already said turbolasers work differently from bombs and tbh "felt" is a rather vague term as I can feel the tremors from a controlled detonation (TNT or something similar) used in building stuff from quite a distance but still not be in any risk of harm from it.


I'm not the one that was using nuclear bombs as a reference point for estimating fire power. But if we did do that then it shows that there would be massive damage. Plus this very site says that 10 to 100 gigatons is enough to level california. Let's just pretend that we use the lower figure, that would mean that 200 gigatons can destroy the equivalent surface area of 20 states of california (or 3273920 square miles) which is almost the size of the entire united states, a single shot.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 07:32am
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If I may add something to the "debate" regarding the inverse-time-anomaly method:

It won't work.

Why? Because of causality. In essence, if you destroy something in the past, you need not destroy it in the future. A plan that relies on sending a "bomb" backwards in time is doomed to fail, since there would be no motivation for it to be launched should it suceed.

Now, the first thing to be brought forward would be the typical fiction mechanic of time alterations creating new parallel universes, and know what? That's the only possible way to explain the godawful temporal mess in the TNG "All Good Things..." episode. As Chuck pointed out in his reviews, if the anomaly travels back in time, it should have been there when the Pasteur got to the coordinates, before they created it (thus altering their actions, and preventing them from starting it, as I pointed out with the causality problem), so the trek-xplanation is, actually, that the Anomaly affects a parallel timeline, same with the "present" Enterprise, wich has no recollection of the Anomaly, even though it is a known phenomenom back at the time of the Farpoint event.
Additionally, no one remembers Picard's actions on the past or present, wich further emphasizes the parallel timeline concept, as well as, you know, there being countless copies of the Enterprise in the final moments of the episode.

This tells us that Q is not only displacing Picard through time, but through timelines, wich is a big strike aganist the whole plan. It requires Q powers to coordinate such a thing, since, without Q's intervention (Allowing Picard to exist in several timelines), the whole thing wouldn't have come to happen in the first place, because of causality.

Now, assuming (and that's a big assumption) that this issue can be avoided and the plan set in motion, there are other big problems, the first being that as the Anomaly goes back in time, it becomes larger. Now, we're talking about the Star Wars galaxy, wich has far older civilizations than the Trek galaxy, with much more powerful technology, as well as the Force. This almost guarantees that the Anomaly would be discovered long before it has enough impact. Why? It takes several billion years (Around 3.5 billion years) for the anomaly to grow to take 1/4th of the Milky Way galaxy, wich is plenty of time for it to be noticed by such advanced civilizations.
Now, if the Anomaly was detected (and yes, that's an if, but a plausible one), it stands to reason that it would be studied, and conclusions would indicate it was shrinking. So we could bet that there'd be a small fleet of scientific vessels waiting for the Enterprise (even military ones, for security) as the point of the Anomaly's dissapearance approaches (It would be a major astronomical event). So the pressence of Star Wars forces would probably prevent continuation of the process, wich, again, would cause a causality paradox, or simply spawn yet another parallel universe.

And that's the final and major strike aganist this plan: Parallel universes. Even in the event of everything working out, the only result would be the destruction of an alternate reality. Our adventurous federation ship would sit in the void wondering why all the Star Wars galaxy is still around, making the whole plan not only unfeasible, but pointless.

And that's not considering another major flaw of the whole thing: The only person to recall any event from "All good things..." is Picard. Remember how they disbelieved him when he first claimed he had been shifting through time? Remember how they thought he was delusional in the future? The Federation would most certainly question the veracity of Picard's report on the whole mess (if he chose to make it, more on this in a moment), and even if they accept "act of Q" as a mission report, Picard is not Data, he is not an astrophysics expert who knows what the hell was going on, it's probable that the details of all the procedure were lost to him. And knowing him, it is even more problable that he chose not to mention the whole thing because, you know, he wouldn't risk endangering all of humanity by letting idiots like marshXYZ get their hands on such a procedure.

But, of course, rabid fanboys don't understand what character motivations are, they only care about capabilities. We could have the Borg, for example, rush in to save a planet full of teary eyed orphans and their puppies, and have them in a color-filled daycare center, where they are educated on the virtues of individualism, until they are brought to their new home. Do the Borg have the capability to pull off such a thing? Well, of course. But, would they ever do such a thing?


And, as a final word, reliance on one-hit-wonders is stupid. It betrays you motivation, marshy, you don't care about rational debate, just about winning. If you were as rational as you claim, you'd see the flaws in these one-time events. They are usually one-time because they tend to be freakish occurences. Want an example? The Red Matter induced time-space bridge. Remember how Spock was trying to fly away from it? Remember how both the Narada and the Enterprise were destroyed/almost destroyed by the Black Hole? The time-space bridge was a freakish accident, something unexpected caused by just the right conditions being met randomly, yet you expect Trek to routinely use it to jump to alternate universes? Specially when the only person who knows that it worked, namely Spock Prime, went through and is assumed to be dead by the original timeline?

Oh, and let's not forget that if the origin of the bridge is a universe where the super-anomaly is already happening, going back in time would only make things worse, since the anomaly would still be there, only bigger. Ooops, you didn't think of that either, did you?


Now, my apologies to the rest of the board for joining the dogpiling, but it is the first time I meet one of these rabid fanboys directly (as in, not in the archives), and it's been grating on my nerves. I mean, it's not like there's a whole site with evidence, examples and even tools to enhance reasoning. Oh wait.


As for you, marshmellow, you're an idiot, of the type that could go beyond his idiocy, but doesn't want to. Your attitude in this thread is proof of that. And that a low level poster like myself can see that is pretty damnign. Now respond to the valind points being thrown at you in this thread, or go fuck yourself.

Lord Revan wrote:
go and look at your suggestion and count everytime there's a part where you should go "assuming that..." and tell us how many such parts you've found.

I'm pretty sure there's quite many.

To quote Jayne from Firefly:
"Smelling a lot of 'if' comin' off this plan." :roll:



unsigned

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 09:18am
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with this as with any vs. debate there's 2 kinds of assumptions you make those that must be "correct" or "right" for the whole thing to funtion at all and those that may or may not be correct.

now for this argument the ones that must be correct are
  1. That there's a way to travel from ST milkyway to the SW galaxy within a reasonble time frame
  2. That technology and characters function as shown by canon (otherwise this just becomes "my dick is bigger then yours" kind of pointless crap)
  3. And that once said canon is definied (preferbly using the defination from the copyright holder) you remain consistent within those rules(due the same reason as part 2)

see just 3 parts

now the ones that may or may not be correct (meaning the parts you must prove to be right)
  1. That Picard reported the events of "all good things" in full and was belived (meaning that Starfleet command didn't dismiss it as halusination)
  2. That said events didn't rely on some special region of space and/or timeframe and thus can be replicated anywhere and anytime
  3. That UFP has all the technology needed to replicate said events (or that at least can manufacture those within a reasonble timeframe).
  4. That UFP is willing to impliment such suicidal plan
  5. That UFP is willing/able to convince rest of the milkyway to assist or at least not interfare with said plan

and those are even before we get to the actual execution of the plan and thus far I've not seen any better anwser then "because I say so".

that's alot of "ifs" for a suppobly "easy" plan.



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 09:39am
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marsh8472 wrote:
Hey I just noticed with everyone talking so much now, no one touched this point I made about using collision at warp speed as a weapon.

Quote:
RIKER: Mister Crusher, ready a collision course with the Borg ship. You heard me. A collision course.
WESLEY: Yes, sir.
RIKER: Mister La Forge, prepare to go to warp power.
LAFORGE [OC]: Aye, sir.


That's because it's irrelevant. You can't derive the kinetic energy from a faster-than-light impact, much less one where the mass (minus mass lightening!) is unknown. Furthermore, the examples we have of ramming in SW suggests that it's a poor man's tactic at best.



Star Trek vs. Star Wars, Extralife style.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 09:45am
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marsh8472 wrote:
Hey I just noticed with everyone talking so much now, no one touched this point I made about using collision at warp speed as a weapon.

Quote:
RIKER: Mister Crusher, ready a collision course with the Borg ship. You heard me. A collision course.
WESLEY: Yes, sir.
RIKER: Mister La Forge, prepare to go to warp power.
LAFORGE [OC]: Aye, sir.
That would be because:
Image

ISD also have substantially greater deflector shields than a Borg Cube.



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 09:53am
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Quote:
Why? Because of causality. In essence, if you destroy something in the past, you need not destroy it in the future. A plan that relies on sending a "bomb" backwards in time is doomed to fail, since there would be no motivation for it to be launched should it suceed.


I addressed this objection already. Using this same argument, that would mean picard is not endangering humanity either. If picard causes an anomaly that goes back in time and stops life from forming on earth then preventing picard from causing the anomaly in the future since there will be no picard. This way of looking at the paradox doesn't seem to hold up since Q says that picard destroys humanity.

It's also possible that the use of anti-time provides a loophole for the paradox where after picard destroys humanity we don't need picard to do it again in the future in order for humanity to stay destroyed.

Quote:
Now, the first thing to be brought forward would be the typical fiction mechanic of time alterations creating new parallel universes, and know what? That's the only possible way to explain the godawful temporal mess in the TNG "All Good Things..." episode. As Chuck pointed out in his reviews, if the anomaly travels back in time, it should have been there when the Pasteur got to the coordinates, before they created it (thus altering their actions, and preventing them from starting it, as I pointed out with the causality problem), so the trek-xplanation is, actually, that the Anomaly affects a parallel timeline, same with the "present" Enterprise, wich has no recollection of the Anomaly, even though it is a known phenomenom back at the time of the Farpoint event.


We can see that in an enterprise episode like "twilight" that it took time for the changes to affect the timeline. Q transported picard to timelines where he was able to see the anomoly appear as it traveled back in time. The reason why it never existed before the Pasteur got there was because the anomoly was not created yet and had not started to move back in time. Even if parallel universes were involved this would only show that the anomoly affects every parallel universe. Plus when the anomoly was stopped and no one had a recollection of the universe, what makes you think that wasn't a newly created parallel universe? or a repaired timeline in the same universe?

Quote:
This tells us that Q is not only displacing Picard through time, but through timelines, wich is a big strike aganist the whole plan. It requires Q powers to coordinate such a thing, since, without Q's intervention (Allowing Picard to exist in several timelines), the whole thing wouldn't have come to happen in the first place, because of causality.


3 timelines all affected by the same anomaly though? If picard would have failed to collapse the anomaly there would have been no humanity here's the quote:

Quote:
PICARD: Are you saying that it worked? We collapsed the anomaly?
Q: Is that all this meant to you? Just another spatial anomaly, just another day at the office?
PICARD: Did it work?
QUE: Well, you're here, aren't you? You're talking to me, aren't you?
PICARD: What about my crew?
Q: The anomaly, my ship, my crew, I suppose you're worried about your fish, too. Well, if it puts your mind at ease, you've saved humanity, once again.


it's implied that since picard is alive that humanity is saved.

Quote:
PICARD: Are you saying that it worked? We collapsed the anomaly?
Q: Is that all this meant to you? Just another spatial anomaly, just another day at the office?
PICARD: Did it work?
QUE: Well, you're here, aren't you? You're talking to me, aren't you?
PICARD: What about my crew?
Q: The anomaly, my ship, my crew, I suppose you're worried about your fish, too. Well, if it puts your mind at ease, you've saved humanity, once again.


Quote:
Now, assuming (and that's a big assumption) that this issue can be avoided and the plan set in motion, there are other big problems, the first being that as the Anomaly goes back in time, it becomes larger. Now, we're talking about the Star Wars galaxy, wich has far older civilizations than the Trek galaxy, with much more powerful technology, as well as the Force. This almost guarantees that the Anomaly would be discovered long before it has enough impact. Why? It takes several billion years (Around 3.5 billion years) for the anomaly to grow to take 1/4th of the Milky Way galaxy, wich is plenty of time for it to be noticed by such advanced civilizations.


ehh in just a few decades the anomaly was so big that the flag ship of the federation was just barely able to collapse it and blew up in the process. And you think they'll be able to do anything about it when it's 1/4th the size of their galaxy? right... :roll: Plus without Q to help them through time, the anomoly should instantly destroy the galaxy. There won't be people a billion years ago that will see the anomoly since the anomoly would have prevented life from ever happening to begin with. Plus even if what you say were possible, they still have to realize that the anomoly is traveling backward in time and not forward in time and getting smaller as time goes on. Plus they need to figure out how to collapse it.

Quote:
Now, if the Anomaly was detected (and yes, that's an if, but a plausible one), it stands to reason that it would be studied, and conclusions would indicate it was shrinking. So we could bet that there'd be a small fleet of scientific vessels waiting for the Enterprise (even military ones, for security) as the point of the Anomaly's dissapearance approaches (It would be a major astronomical event). So the pressence of Star Wars forces would probably prevent continuation of the process, wich, again, would cause a causality paradox, or simply spawn yet another parallel universe.


The anomaly would form only after the enterprise completed it's mission since the anomoly is formed by the 3 tachyon pulses. And since all life would be destroyed after the anomoly is created, there would be scientific vessels to look at the anomaly.

Quote:
And that's the final and major strike aganist this plan: Parallel universes. Even in the event of everything working out, the only result would be the destruction of an alternate reality. Our adventurous federation ship would sit in the void wondering why all the Star Wars galaxy is still around, making the whole plan not only unfeasible, but pointless.


or maybe the prime universe gets destroyed and we're left with an alternate universe. According to the impression we get from Q though, it's simple that the anomoly is formed in the future and it goes back in time and stops the universe from forming and yet does not need an initial cause for it afterward for it to happen anyway. Perhaps because anti-time is involved.

Quote:
And that's not considering another major flaw of the whole thing: The only person to recall any event from "All good things..." is Picard. Remember how they disbelieved him when he first claimed he had been shifting through time? Remember how they thought he was delusional in the future? The Federation would most certainly question the veracity of Picard's report on the whole mess (if he chose to make it, more on this in a moment), and even if they accept "act of Q" as a mission report, Picard is not Data, he is not an astrophysics expert who knows what the hell was going on, it's probable that the details of all the procedure were lost to him. And knowing him, it is even more problable that he chose not to mention the whole thing because, you know, he wouldn't risk endangering all of humanity by letting idiots like marshXYZ get their hands on such a procedure.


Oh picard knows the details of the future or he wouldn't have forewarned his crew about what the future hold for them allowing them a chance to change it. Picard needed to remember the details of the procedure in order to do the same things in the other time periods. Since picard knows about it and picard's alive then the knowledge is there. He probably documented the whole thing in his ship log too :D

Quote:
But, of course, rabid fanboys don't understand what character motivations are, they only care about capabilities. We could have the Borg, for example, rush in to save a planet full of teary eyed orphans and their puppies, and have them in a color-filled daycare center, where they are educated on the virtues of individualism, until they are brought to their new home. Do the Borg have the capability to pull off such a thing? Well, of course. But, would they ever do such a thing?


All it takes is one psycho with a desire to destroy star wars (I GUARANTEE you such people are out there) and the use of federation technology. It does not have to be a character we know that does it.

Quote:
And, as a final word, reliance on one-hit-wonders is stupid. It betrays you motivation, marshy, you don't care about rational debate, just about winning. If you were as rational as you claim, you'd see the flaws in these one-time events. They are usually one-time because they tend to be freakish occurences. Want an example? The Red Matter induced time-space bridge. Remember how Spock was trying to fly away from it? Remember how both the Narada and the Enterprise were destroyed/almost destroyed by the Black Hole? The time-space bridge was a freakish accident, something unexpected caused by just the right conditions being met randomly, yet you expect Trek to routinely use it to jump to alternate universes? Specially when the only person who knows that it worked, namely Spock Prime, went through and is assumed to be dead by the original timeline?


This procedure is proven to work in a well known episode. What's the point of having the anomoly twice? "oh there's that anomoly again, let's just do the static warp shell thing again". Plus the probability of that event happening by chance twice is astronomical. Actually the only reason it happened once was because Q kinda nudged picard into doing it which wouldn't happen under normal circumstances.

As far as one-hit wonders go in aliens in general, federation, klingon, and romulan space all together make up maybe 1/10th of the galaxy tops according to this map.

Image

if we truely want to pit star trek and star wars we should pick the strongest of star trek against the strongest of star wars. It's not my fault that most of the star wars galaxy is in control by the galactic empire or the rebellion after the galactic empire fell. You guys are left with very few options. I have a feeling things will look even more dire when another star trek movie or series come out. They still have a lot of exploring to do :twisted:

Quote:
Oh, and let's not forget that if the origin of the bridge is a universe where the super-anomaly is already happening, going back in time would only make things worse, since the anomaly would still be there, only bigger. Ooops, you didn't think of that either, did you?


This issue is only considered in the event that an anti-time eruption is capable of growing to the size of the universe in the universe's lifetime. Most likely the anomoly is located in a region of space where the universe had not expanded to yet so it won't even be there to affect anything in the star trek universe.

But in the event it does, they probably only have the option to evacuate before they shoot their final pulse. Once they go back in time they create an alternate universe where they don't engage the third pulse and are safe.

Quote:
Now, my apologies to the rest of the board for joining the dogpiling, but it is the first time I meet one of these rabid fanboys directly (as in, not in the archives), and it's been grating on my nerves. I mean, it's not like there's a whole site with evidence, examples and even tools to enhance reasoning. Oh wait.


I know how you feel, I met my first star wars fanboy recently too. I enjoyed taking him down. It is kinda funny how you need to outnumber me like 30 to 1 and still aren't much more effective at proving anything. :D I'll give you this much though, I was almost too lazy to even read your dribble.

Quote:
As for you, marshmellow, you're an idiot, of the type that could go beyond his idiocy, but doesn't want to. Your attitude in this thread is proof of that. And that a low level poster like myself can see that is pretty damnign. Now respond to the valind points being thrown at you in this thread, or go fuck yourself.


Speaking of attitudes, it's ones like yours that create people like me. :wink: Perhaps you should apologize to the board and take some blame. Your arguments are shit and you are shit. You are a low level poster I can tell heh. My advice is to not quit your day job. Go fuck yourself as well you star wars fanatic who's got a penis that makes yoda's penis look big in comparison :finger: Loser

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 09:55am
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nightmare wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:
Hey I just noticed with everyone talking so much now, no one touched this point I made about using collision at warp speed as a weapon.

Quote:
RIKER: Mister Crusher, ready a collision course with the Borg ship. You heard me. A collision course.
WESLEY: Yes, sir.
RIKER: Mister La Forge, prepare to go to warp power.
LAFORGE [OC]: Aye, sir.


That's because it's irrelevant. You can't derive the kinetic energy from a faster-than-light impact, much less one where the mass (minus mass lightening!) is unknown. Furthermore, the examples we have of ramming in SW suggests that it's a poor man's tactic at best.


why call for warp if it's not more effective than not calling for warp? You haven't explained why he gave the order to collide with the borg ship at warp speed.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 09:58am
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General Schatten wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:
Hey I just noticed with everyone talking so much now, no one touched this point I made about using collision at warp speed as a weapon.

Quote:
RIKER: Mister Crusher, ready a collision course with the Borg ship. You heard me. A collision course.
WESLEY: Yes, sir.
RIKER: Mister La Forge, prepare to go to warp power.
LAFORGE [OC]: Aye, sir.
That would be because:
Image

ISD also have substantially greater deflector shields than a Borg Cube.


hmm wolf 359, 39 star ships, borg ship survives untouched not to mention that attack from the main deflector dish. Nope, no shields there.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 10:13am
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marsh8472 wrote:
why call for warp if it's not more effective than not calling for warp? You haven't explained why he gave the order to collide with the borg ship at warp speed.


Less time to evade. Besides, I don't need to explain jack shit. You still can't derive kinetic energy from a FTL impact.

marsh8472 wrote:
I say you need federation technology because they use their main deflector dish to produce this effect as well which could be significant. Star wars ships don't have this ability. And, yes, there's the question of what "inverse" means before jumping to conclusions that star wars has this technology you should figure that out (and if you can't then that's just too bad for you).


All of this is totally irrelevant, since you can't achieve the effect anyway. But alright, I'll debate the pointless. If you want to claim that the deflector dish does anything for this suggested plan but emit tachyons, you'll have to provided the evidence. Remember, it's merely a way to scan which they couldn't do with their standard sensors. 'Inverse' is totally irrelevant unless you can prove it's significant. If I were to assume it had any meaning, it would be related to the conveyor mechanism, because you can't fire a goddamn pulse backwards, nor is there any such thing as inverted tachyons.

marsh8472 wrote:
There is a vast region of space past the mid-rim of the star wars galaxy uncharted by any known galactic power. If it was really necessary for a ship to venture into their galaxy undetected they could enter their galaxy through the uncharted region and conduct the attack there.


The unknown region is full of nasty aliens. Some of them would attack your ship just to enslave your crew. Some of them would attack you for trespassing. Some of them would attack you just because they don't like the look of you. Undetected my ass. "There are a hundred different threats out there that would freeze your blood if you knew about them." - Stent to Mara Jade regarding the Unknown Regions.



Star Trek vs. Star Wars, Extralife style.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 10:55am
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I notice Marshmellow here has still not replied to my demands. So we have some rules violations here.

Interesting.



Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 10:57am
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Quote:
Less time to evade. Besides, I don't need to explain jack shit. You still can't derive kinetic energy from a FTL impact.


DS9 episode "Paradise"

Quote:
KIRA: What are you doing?
DAX: Trying an old rope trick I learned on Earth once.
KIRA: A rope trick.
DAX: A very talented Hopi I knew did things with a rope you wouldn't believe. It's an old West American artform.
KIRA: You're suggesting we try to rope the Rio Grande at warp?
DAX: With a tractor beam.
KIRA: Once we pull it back to impulse, isn't there a risk that the strain will rip both hulls apart?
DAX: If the ship assembly teams back in the yards did their jobs really well, we'll probably make it. If they had an off day, we're going to have a problem. But it's our best shot. Unless, a as ranking officer, you have a better idea.
KIRA: We're within tractor range. Locking on.
(The third try grabs the runabout)
DAX: Engaging impulse engines.
(Everything shakes and rattles until they drop out of warp)
DAX: Remind me to send a thank you note to the assembly teams.


why should it require more energy to stop the Rio Grande when two shuttles are at warp rather than at impulse? Like in episode such as "The Maquis, Part II"

Quote:
All of this is totally irrelevant, since you can't achieve the effect anyway. But alright, I'll debate the pointless. If you want to claim that the deflector dish does anything for this suggested plan but emit tachyons, you'll have to provided the evidence. Remember, it's merely a way to scan which they couldn't do with their standard sensors. 'Inverse' is totally irrelevant unless you can prove it's significant. If I were to assume it had any meaning, it would be related to the conveyor mechanism, because you can't fire a goddamn pulse backwards, nor is there any such thing as inverted tachyons.


nice try to shift the burden of proof. We already know that star trek ships can do it since they've done it before. You're the one that's make the claim that star wars ships can do it so it's on you to prove it.

Quote:
The unknown region is full of nasty aliens. Some of them would attack your ship just to enslave your crew. Some of them would attack you for trespassing. Some of them would attack you just because they don't like the look of you. Undetected my ass. "There are a hundred different threats out there that would freeze your blood if you knew about them." - Stent to Mara Jade regarding the Unknown Regions.


not true. Little is known about the unknown region. One race that lives there is the Chiss who are generally non-violent. Another race is the Killiks who are peaceful in nature. The Rakata lived there but became extinct. The only known threat that I can see is a race called the Ssi-ruu imperium but after failed invasions they were driven back into their space and it's not known what happened to them. They tend to be xenophobic and avoid outsiders and were clustered. I doubt they're all over uncharted space in other words. Aside from that there's nothing to suggest there's anything dangerous here.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:01am
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Thanas wrote:
I would be against any coliseum debate until the guy has shown that he can either provide evidence, argue honestly or concede a point. I do not want Ruben MK3.

So here is my challenge to him before my mind on this will change:

Earlier on he claimed that ST ships ramming an ISD will cause tremendous damage. I now ask him to show that they can do so by calculating the energy such a collision will release against the ISD and prove that this is enough to damage/destroy the ISD.

He conveniently ignored all my points in my reply, so unless he answers that one, what is the use?



ok i didn't see your post. Give me a minute and i'll be happy to jump through your hoop

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:03am
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You are STILL unable to explain why it can't be an elaborate illusion by Q.

Look, we have all kind of strange things in that episode.
Some of the (like the midgets that only Picard can see) already require illusions by Q (either they are not there in the first place, or they are invisible to the rest of the crew).

If we say it was an deliberate illusion by Q, then this also explains the whole time paradox (and no, you can not just say "anti-time did it" without explaining HOW the anti-time did it).

Therefore, an elaborate illusion is the simpler explanation to start with. You have to prove that it is NOT an illusion.
So far, you have done squat.

Regarding the warp-ramming tactic:
You are obviously faster at warp (relative to the universe), which makes evading much harder for the enemy.
So there you have the reason why they went to warp.
But that does not prove that they did it to make the ramming itself more dangerous.
In fact, if going to warp actually increases the kinetic energy - where does the energy come from?
And if they can achieve it that easily, why don't they use relativistic torpedoes? Why are there no unmanned ramming vehicles?
Obviously because warp works by warping space-time, NOT by normal accelleration.

If you want to argue that they HAVE more KE at warp, then the burden of proof is on you, since it is YOUR claim.

Quote:
if we truely want to pit star trek and star wars we should pick the strongest of star trek against the strongest of star wars. It's not my fault that most of the star wars galaxy is in control by the galactic empire or the rebellion after the galactic empire fell. You guys are left with very few options. I have a feeling things will look even more dire when another star trek movie or series come out. They still have a lot of exploring to do

Then do so.
No one is preventing you from making a thread comparing the strongest ST-power to the strongest SW-power.
Of course, you would find that anything except perhaps the Q-continuum is far behind the stronger SW-powers (which made things such as the Maw-cluster, an area of space with artificially created and stabilized black holes).

Really, if you want strong science-fiction powers, look at the Daleks, the Timelords, the Culture or late-series Lensman.
All of them could kick the Empires butt wihtout breaking into sweat - e.g. the Culture has weapons with ranges of lightminutes, shields that can withstand the core of a sun indefinately and even a ship without weapons can kill all life on a planet (hint: reactor exhaust).
Meanwhile, the Lensman are using antimatter-planets as ammunition and have instahit-weapons with ranges of lightdecades and the power-output of a supernova.
But let's not derail the thread - i just want to point out that there are simply fast differences in power-levels in sci-fi.
And power-levels is why the Federation and every other ST-power would get it's butt kicked - their weapons/shields/drives are just orders of magnitudes worse than those of SW.
It's like pitting ancient galleys against nuclear-powered carriers where the planes carry nukes. Except, you know, worse than that.



SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:15am
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Okay so we know that a borg cube has a mass of 90,000,000 metric tons or 90,000,000,000 kg. Its velocity at full impulse should be around 0.25c or about 75,000,000 meters per second. This gives it a kinetic energy of 0.5*90,000,000,000*75,000,000^2 = 253125000000000000000000000 joules = 60498326960 megatons of kinetic energy. Sure you can spread this force out over the surface area of the hull of the ship but it probably won't help much and since the borg cube has more mass you can bet that the star destroyer will be pushed from this causing at the very least a g-force on the ship that will probably kill everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:26am
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You will of course also show how much of that energy actually impacts on the Star Destroyer itself given its shield strength?

You will also demonstrate how it is capable for a warp ship to collide with an object not in warp?

You will also demonstrate how full impulse is 0.25c?

And you will demonstrate when the borg have shown superior or equal speed and maneuverability to an ISD?

YOu will also name the source for the weight of the borg cube?

You will also prove how a Borg cube can withstand over 100 volleys of an ISD, which should be about the number it will receive before it gets even into ramming range (and even that requires the Imps to be fast asleep at the helm)?



Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:31am
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Besides, SW-ships obviously have g-force compensators, or the crew could never survive the acceleration they pull of.
So yeah, the crew won't be squished due to a few measily g.



SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:33am
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Youngling

Joined: 2010-02-14 08:32am
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Quote:
You are STILL unable to explain why it can't be an elaborate illusion by Q.

Look, we have all kind of strange things in that episode.
Some of the (like the midgets that only Picard can see) already require illusions by Q (either they are not there in the first place, or they are invisible to the rest of the crew).

If we say it was an deliberate illusion by Q, then this also explains the whole time paradox (and no, you can not just say "anti-time did it" without explaining HOW the anti-time did it).

Therefore, an elaborate illusion is the simpler explanation to start with. You have to prove that it is NOT an illusion.
So far, you have done squat.


Q said that he's not responsible. remember him saying: "there you go again always blaming me". Theoretically it could have been all orchestrated by Q but theoretically anything can be orchestrated by Q since he's omnipotent so it's kind of a mute point. The proof that it's not orchestrated by Q is data's analysis of how they caused it based on his knowledge of temporal theories, combined with the dialog of the rest of the crew that take the blame for causing it.

Quote:
Regarding the warp-ramming tactic:
You are obviously faster at warp (relative to the universe), which makes evading much harder for the enemy.
So there you have the reason why they went to warp.
But that does not prove that they did it to make the ramming itself more dangerous.
In fact, if going to warp actually increases the kinetic energy - where does the energy come from?
And if they can achieve it that easily, why don't they use relativistic torpedoes? Why are there no unmanned ramming vehicles?
Obviously because warp works by warping space-time, NOT by normal accelleration.

If you want to argue that they HAVE more KE at warp, then the burden of proof is on you, since it is YOUR claim.


I did provide proof with the runabout example.

Quote:
Then do so.
No one is preventing you from making a thread comparing the strongest ST-power to the strongest SW-power.
Of course, you would find that anything except perhaps the Q-continuum is far behind the stronger SW-powers (which made things such as the Maw-cluster, an area of space with artificially created and stabilized black holes).


I have no desire to yet. I'm saying that if you have star trek vs star wars in the broadest sense then it's alittle unfair to pick humans as the ones to represent star trek. These one hit wonders as you call them are alien races that have just as much right to represent star trek since they are in the star trek universe. Unless you want a match like the sand people versus the federation, picking the minority in the universe like the federation doesn't cut it although i'm sure you'd love for it to stick with the federation vs the empire.

Quote:
Really, if you want strong science-fiction powers, look at the Daleks, the Timelords, the Culture or late-series Lensman.
All of them could kick the Empires butt wihtout breaking into sweat - e.g. the Culture has weapons with ranges of lightminutes, shields that can withstand the core of a sun indefinately and even a ship without weapons can kill all life on a planet (hint: reactor exhaust).
Meanwhile, the Lensman are using antimatter-planets as ammunition and have instahit-weapons with ranges of lightdecades and the power-output of a supernova.
But let's not derail the thread - i just want to point out that there are simply fast differences in power-levels in sci-fi.
And power-levels is why the Federation and every other ST-power would get it's butt kicked - their weapons/shields/drives are just orders of magnitudes worse than those of SW.
It's like pitting ancient galleys against nuclear-powered carriers where the planes carry nukes. Except, you know, worse than that.
You are STILL unable to explain why it can't be an elaborate illusion by Q.

Look, we have all kind of strange things in that episode.
Some of the (like the midgets that only Picard can see) already require illusions by Q (either they are not there in the first place, or they are invisible to the rest of the crew).

If we say it was an deliberate illusion by Q, then this also explains the whole time paradox (and no, you can not just say "anti-time did it" without explaining HOW the anti-time did it).

Therefore, an elaborate illusion is the simpler explanation to start with. You have to prove that it is NOT an illusion.
So far, you have done squat.

Regarding the warp-ramming tactic:
You are obviously faster at warp (relative to the universe), which makes evading much harder for the enemy.
So there you have the reason why they went to warp.
But that does not prove that they did it to make the ramming itself more dangerous.
In fact, if going to warp actually increases the kinetic energy - where does the energy come from?
And if they can achieve it that easily, why don't they use relativistic torpedoes? Why are there no unmanned ramming vehicles?
Obviously because warp works by warping space-time, NOT by normal accelleration.

If you want to argue that they HAVE more KE at warp, then the burden of proof is on you, since it is YOUR claim.

Quote:
if we truely want to pit star trek and star wars we should pick the strongest of star trek against the strongest of star wars. It's not my fault that most of the star wars galaxy is in control by the galactic empire or the rebellion after the galactic empire fell. You guys are left with very few options. I have a feeling things will look even more dire when another star trek movie or series come out. They still have a lot of exploring to do

Then do so.
No one is preventing you from making a thread comparing the strongest ST-power to the strongest SW-power.
Of course, you would find that anything except perhaps the Q-continuum is far behind the stronger SW-powers (which made things such as the Maw-cluster, an area of space with artificially created and stabilized black holes).

Really, if you want strong science-fiction powers, look at the Daleks, the Timelords, the Culture or late-series Lensman.
All of them could kick the Empires butt wihtout breaking into sweat - e.g. the Culture has weapons with ranges of lightminutes, shields that can withstand the core of a sun indefinately and even a ship without weapons can kill all life on a planet (hint: reactor exhaust).
Meanwhile, the Lensman are using antimatter-planets as ammunition and have instahit-weapons with ranges of lightdecades and the power-output of a supernova.
But let's not derail the thread - i just want to point out that there are simply fast differences in power-levels in sci-fi.
And power-levels is why the Federation and every other ST-power would get it's butt kicked - their weapons/shields/drives are just orders of magnitudes worse than those of SW.
It's like pitting ancient galleys against nuclear-powered carriers where the planes carry nukes. Except, you know, worse than that.


I don't think the federation would lose but I know how you guys are about your canon so I find it futile to argue that right now.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:35am
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marsh8472 wrote:
I don't think the federation would lose but I know how you guys are about your canon so I find it futile to argue that right now.


Translation: WAAAAAH.



Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:43am
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marsh8472 wrote:
Q said that he's not responsible. remember him saying: "there you go again always blaming me". Theoretically it could have been all orchestrated by Q but theoretically anything can be orchestrated by Q since he's omnipotent so it's kind of a mute point. The proof that it's not orchestrated by Q is data's analysis of how they caused it based on his knowledge of temporal theories, combined with the dialog of the rest of the crew that take the blame for causing it.


Why yes, it could.
Of course, i only use it as an explanation since
-there are illogical impossiblities to explain
-and he is already directly involve.

And tell me a reason why he could not have lied. He did so before, so why not in this case?
So get a broom and sweep up your burnt strawman.

Quote:
why should it require more energy to stop the Rio Grande when two shuttles are at warp rather than at impulse? Like in episode such as "The Maquis, Part II"

Hm...perhaps because of the warp-field affecting the tractor beam?
Hey, if you warp space-time, beams HAVE to be affected.

Quote:
I have no desire to yet. I'm saying that if you have star trek vs star wars in the broadest sense then it's alittle unfair to pick humans as the ones to represent star trek. These one hit wonders as you call them are alien races that have just as much right to represent star trek since they are in the star trek universe. Unless you want a match like the sand people versus the federation, picking the minority in the universe like the federation doesn't cut it although i'm sure you'd love for it to stick with the federation vs the empire.

Then quit whinning when we actually compare two major factions instead of one-episode guys we don't really know anything about.



SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 11:52am
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marsh8472 wrote:
I don't think the federation would lose but I know how you guys are about your canon so I find it futile to argue that right now.

OUR CANON?!

mate that so called "our canon" is alot better to guy who tried to tell Paramount and Lucasfilm that he knew those companies policies better then the people actually working there, all that because said companies didn't give him the anwser he wanted.

to me it seems you're not intrested in constructive debating at all but rather in that pointless yelling of "my dick is bigger then yours!"

now would you kindly anwser the points me, thanas and others have brought up, clearly and without evasions.



I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 12:03pm
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ok one more hoop

Quote:
You will of course also show how much of that energy actually impacts on the Star Destroyer itself given its shield strength?


considering that the millenium falcon was able to fly at one and make contact with its hull i'm not sure I have to. But according to st-vs-sw the star destroyer has absorbed as much as 1e20 joules of energy so it should absorb about 0.00003% of the impact.

Quote:
You will also demonstrate how it is capable for a warp ship to collide with an object not in warp?


the same way riker was about to do it. Have your flight path pass through the ship.

Quote:
You will also demonstrate how full impulse is 0.25c?


that's the most popular figure I got when I searched. It was actually a conservative one too. I was thinking of using the 0.9c figure.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=%22full+impulse%22+0.25c&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=7b86eccc3f1b6d5d <-- click

Quote:
And you will demonstrate when the borg have shown superior or equal speed and maneuverability to an ISD?


has nothing to do with ramming, we see ships ram star destroyers before and they didn't have time to react fast enough to go to hyperdrive. The borg do have the use of transwarp hubs which allow them to travel across the galaxy in a short period of time, probably faster than the hyperdrive.

Quote:
YOu will also name the source for the weight of the borg cube?


http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymain=/ ... hp?brgcube says 90 million tons

Quote:
You will also prove how a Borg cube can withstand over 100 volleys of an ISD, which should be about the number it will receive before it gets even into ramming range (and even that requires the Imps to be fast asleep at the helm)?


at 0.25c you really think they'll be able to get that many shots off before the cube slams into them? :D They'll do it with adaptive shielding. And...

Quote:
SHELBY: Projections suggest that a Borg ship like this one could continue to function effectively even if seventy eight percent of it was inoperable.


that's how

pretty easy questions

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 12:05pm
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my formula can be used to show the energy of moving things in relativistic space, but since I do not know the ratio of warp to speed of light I can not put in the x for the velocity to speed of light ratio.

Also I am not familiar with Russian bombs but would like to read more about them if I could find a good source.
I just went with averages of energy and tests that were conducted in Arizona and then raised those ranges exponentially until the orders of magnitude were equal.



all i have to say Arthur is this... SPOON

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-20 12:11pm
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Youngling

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Quote:
OUR CANON?!

mate that so called "our canon" is alot better to guy who tried to tell Paramount and Lucasfilm that he knew those companies policies better then the people actually working there, all that because said companies didn't give him the anwser he wanted.

to me it seems you're not intrested in constructive debating at all but rather in that pointless yelling of "my dick is bigger then yours!"

now would you kindly anwser the points me, thanas and others have brought up, clearly and without evasions.


well technically g-canon is the absolute canon and the only one worth considering. As a convention people use the lower levels of canon to fill in the blanks and call them facts. But this is only a convention and not official.

Quote:
Why yes, it could.
Of course, i only use it as an explanation since
-there are illogical impossiblities to explain
-and he is already directly involve.

And tell me a reason why he could not have lied. He did so before, so why not in this case?
So get a broom and sweep up your burnt strawman.


If it made no sense then the crew wouldn't have killed themselves. Data figured it out and figured out how to collapse it. Does data lie? It would violate the plot of the episode.

Quote:
Hm...perhaps because of the warp-field affecting the tractor beam?
Hey, if you warp space-time, beams HAVE to be affected.


It's also possible the warp field gives off kinetic energy which would make it an effective ramming tool.

Quote:
Then quit whinning when we actually compare two major factions instead of one-episode guys we don't really know anything about.


you're the one who's whining about it. If you don't like it, don't come into the thread. Idiots.. :lol:

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