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Which was not a suicide cult, you idiot. It was a ritualistic fasting in order to speed death by people who were terminally ill.
I never said that they were a suicide cult, I said they encouraged suicide, which is factual.
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Yeah, and now I am asking you to back it up by real sources. Not wikipedia not youtube not some other BS site on the internet.
Yeah, now your back tracking. At first, you said all my sources were wikipedia. You realized that was bullshit, so, now you've changed your argument to " they weren't wikipedia, but still not good enough for my tastes". If I cite books, your just going to say "I didn't cite enough books". If I cite enough books, your going to say "the books aren't reliable". If the books are reliable, your just going to say " I'm misquoting them". If I'm not misquoting them, your going to call me an "idiot" and then walk off. So, I'm not even going to waste my time. You have not proven my original sources to be inaccurate, so, until you do that, I'm not going to elaborate further.
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I already showed you the propagandic text with the picture of St. Theopil before. As for Philae:
And you can also see the utter disregard for cultural values displayed by the christians here. Do you see how they defaced and destroyed these marvelous works of art?
Defenders of civilizations indeed.
So far, all the events that you have mentioned took place in the eastern Empire. By your own admission, The eastern Church was always separate from the Roman Church, so, under that reasoning, these events were ordered by the Orthodox Church, not the roman Church. I would remind you, as Zixinus himself pointed out, this debate is not about Christianity, but the Roman Catholic Church. All you have shown is that certain Christians destroyed libraries, temples etc.. You have not shown that the Roman Catholic Church condoned temple burning as an official, and systematic policy.
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Yeah....it was a significant battle. It was however not the setback for the moors that christian propaganda had made it out to be. .
I'm sorry what? How can it be a significant battle if it didn't set back the moors? It must have set them back, or it wouldn't be significant. Even if it didn't, that still doesn't negate the argument above. Which stated that if the battle had not taken place that Frankish kingdom would not have developed as it had, and the later voyage of Columbus would not have taken place. Which was the essence of my argument.
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And the church had nothing to do with it.
Here we go again, you realized that your original statement was incorrect, so, now your back tracking. As I mentioned before, Charles Martel was mentored by St. Boniface. It is also significant to mention the Frankish conversion to Christianity, which was important to the development of the kingdom that created Charles Martel.
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Charlemagne, you dolt.
Wait... the Catholic conversion of Charlemagne proves that the Church wanted to conquer Byzantium how exactly?
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The Byzantines eventually became the turks. Is Constantine supposed to be the forefather of Osman I?
No...but the Ottomans sure count as the successor of modern day turkey, duh. Actually, thank you for proving my point. The ottomans conquered turkey, which lead to the modern day country of Turkey. If they had not conquered turkey, turkey would be only half a country, with one half of it being Christian and the other Muslim. In the same way, if Charlemagne hadn't conquered what he did, Germany and France would look a lot different culturally and geographically today.
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Which was responsible for the rise of the trade in teh 12th century and the rise of the Italian cities...how exactly?
Without the influence of the Church, and the people they converted, Italy would not have developed in the same way.
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And the christian communities in the east are far older. Guess who Paul was prosecuting before he became a christian?
Well, this is more of a theological issue. Of course, I'm going to say that Peter was the first Pope, and that Jesus Christ was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church.
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Concession accepted.
Wait, so how does this matter again? Since, after all, the Byzantines were the ones burning all the temples and libraries.
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You did not, however keep pretending that you did.
Enlighten me as to what your charge actually was again? Was it that Byzantine scholars were better than western scholars? Fine, granted, but doesn't that shoot a hole in your "temple burning" argument, since, the Byzantines were the ones who burnt the temples?
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I said copied, not quoted. There is a differences.
But, okay:
Vespasian and Jesus:
Jesus is known to have healed the blind and the lame. At the time the Apostles wrote their stories, there were similar stories in circulation about the deeds of the emperor Vespasian. those were known to the christians, for we know they lived during that time and in the areas in which they were celebrated.
Sueton writes (Suet. Vesp. 7, 2-3):
So... because they both healed blind people with their hands, its a copy? If that is your argument, that is, quite frankly, pretty lame, since I'm sure there are thousands of deities and holy people who claimed to have cured the blind. It doesn't prove that one was copied from the other.
On a side note, please translate your finding into English; I can't read Latin.
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Mithras and Jesus:
I wish you hadn't gone here but since you did, I guess I'll humor you.
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The birth of mithras has some similarities - Mithras is helped by shepherds, as is Jesus. Furthermore, the celebration of Sol Invictus/Mithras is on the 25th of December.
First off, Jesus was not born on December 25th, a fact that everyone, Christians included, recognizes. The Church only put the celebration on December 25th in order to compete with the Pagan holiday on the same day. Besides, the Eastern Church places, and has always placed, Christmas on Jan. 6th.
As for the supposed "similarities" between mithra's birth and that of Christ, I'll simply show you the actual Mithrain legend.
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December 25th was Mithras's particular festival, when the advent of the new light and the god's birth were celebrated. This birth was in the nature of a miracle, the young Mithras being forced out of a rock as if by some hidden magic power. He is shown naked save for the Phrygian cap, holding dagger and torch in his uplifted hands. He is the new begetter of light (genitor luminis), born from the rock (deus genitor rupe natus), from a rock which gives birth (petra genetrix). Even at this stage he is equipped for his nature feats with bow and arrow, ready to perform the miracle of the striking of the rock or the miracle of the hunt. Just as the crypt of the Mithraeum is the symbol of the celestial vault, so the rock is the firmament from which light descends to earth. Sometimes, as at Dura-Europos, flames are shown shooting out from the rock's surface and even from the cap, which is often studded with stars and, like the vault of the Mithraic grotto, was regarded as a symbol of the celestial vault.
In the tenth yasht of the Avesta, the hymn for Mithras, the Persian god is described appearing in a golden glow on top of Hara Berezaiti, a mythological mountain later localised in the present-day Elburz, whence he looks out over the lands of the aryans. The theory that Mithras was descended from the union of Mother Earth and Ahuramazda does not bear examination; Mithras is saxigenus and sometimes he is shown stepping proudly out of the rock, as on a relief at St Aubin in France. The rock of Mithras's birth contains both light and fire; he who is born from the rock is thus a fiery god of light. This conception is almost certainly based on a very ancient tradition dating from the time when man first discovered that both light and fire could be produced by straking a flint. Mithras's birth is a cosmic event; he holds the globe in one hand from the moment of his birth (Fig.
and touches with the other the circle of the zodiac; the gods of the four winds and the four elements are all present to honour Mithras, ruler of the cosmos.
http://www.farvardyn.com/mithras2.phpI'm sorry, but was Christ born from a rock? Was Christ born as grown man? Was Christ descended from the spirit of mother Earth? I think not.
Oh, by the way, Christ's birth was not attended by shepherds.
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“He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
There is no evidence that Mithra ever said this, however, there is evidence for a divine meal. Here it is:
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The sacred meal and the ascent to heaven
After the arduous bull-hunt and the miracle of the bull-slaying, Mithras completes his stay on earth by banqueting with Sol off the flesh of the bull. As already remarked, the paintings at Dura-Europos include two attendants dressed as torch-bearers who carry the dead bull on a pole slung between their shoulders.
Mithras and Sol on either side of an altar Mithras and Sol at the sacred meal Mithras and Sol Mithras in a chariot ascending into heaven
Fig. 23. Mithras and Sol on either side of an altar Fig. 24. Mithras and Sol at the sacred meal Fig. 25. Mithras and Sol Fig. 26. Mithras in a chariot ascending into heaven
The meal takes place in a cave where Mithras, in his Persian robes, reclines or sites with Sol behind a table; the relationship between the two gods is clearly a friendly one, as Mithras is sometimes seen with his arm round his companion's shoulder. The most usual expression discernible in these pictures, however, is one of profound religious feeling, which can be seen in all the representations of highly exalted events as, for example, in the painting at Dura-Europos (Fig. 25). The divine meal is more frequently portrayed than any other scene except the bull-slaying and sometimes the latter appears on the front of a relief which portrays the meal on its reverse. In such cases the relief was mounted on a pivot so that during the ceremonies the worshippers' attention could be drawn to one scene or the other by rotating the slab.
The meal can even be regarded as an event which takes place solely on a divine level between the two gods, Sol and Mithras. But the believers, according to certain texts, imitated the example of their deity during the ritual. Therefore certain representations are of a mixed nature, with the initiates themselves taking part in the meal as attendants on the gods; the example and imitation of the divine meal are woven into a single whole. A third variant of the scene represents initiates partaking of the meal alone.
In order to understand the ritual of this repast we must first consider the magnificent painting on the side wall behind the left-hand bench in the Aventine Mithraeum. This painting dates from A.D. 220. In a dark vaulted grotto, lit only by the golden glow of candlelight, Sol and Mithras are reclining on a couch; before them is a small table. Sol, clad in a long red garment with a yellow belt, holds a globe in his left hand and raises his right hand in a gesture of ardent enthusiasm; his long golden locks are surrounded by a rayed nimbus and he is gazing ecstatically upwards into the heavens. Mithras, in his red cloak and Phrygian cap, is sitting beside him and has put his right hand on Sol's shoulder. On each side stands an attendant; one of them keeps the gods provided with drink, the other, wearing a raven-mask, offers an oval plate with food; he is an initiate of the raven grade. Eight other young men, all Lions according to the inscriptions, bring gifts. They carry bread and a mixing-bowl, a cock and a bundle of tapers. Nowhere else is the Mithraic meal portrayed in such detail. The two gods have for a moment joined their earthly followers, who in their turn pay homage to their distinguished guests. In this way the divine presence is manifested while the initiates celebrate the mysteries and follow their example. The place once occupied by Mithras and Sol is now taken by their representatives, the Father of the Community and the Courier of the Sun, who during the solemnities would be wearing the same clothes as Mithras and Sol wore before them and are furnished with the same attributes. In the Santa Prisca Mithraeum a separate bench is made for these two persons to recline upon during the celebration of the meal. The lower grades, particularly the Ravens, are in attendance to supply them with food and drink.
http://www.farvardyn.com/mithras4.phpAs we can see, there is an enormous difference between this story and that of Jesus. For one thing, this meal is between two gods, not twelve apostles, and it is also not a last supper, and most importantly, Mithras never commanded his followers to do this in "memory" of him, nor did he ever say it was necessary for salvation. Also, the earliest evidence we have for this myth is from 220 AD, long after the rise of Christianity, so who's coping who exactly?
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- Mithraic Communion (M. J. Vermaseren, Mithras, The Secret God)
“And as they were eating, Jesus, having taken bread, when he had blessed, broke [it], and gave [it] to them, and said, Take [this]: this is my body. And having taken [the] cup, when he had given thanks, he gave [it] to them, and they all drank out of it. And he said to them, This is my blood, that of the [new] covenant, that shed for many.”
- Mark 14:22-26
As for the sacred meal, let's take a look at how it was actually practiced.
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On the reverse of the Mithraic relief from Heddernheim, Sol and Mithras are lying together behind the slain bull (Fig. 24). Elsewhere both gods or their followers are sometimes seen lying on the bull's skin, emphasising once again the magic power which they seek to extract from it. On the Konjic relief, the Raven and Lion, both wearing the masks of their grade, serve food and drink, (Fig. 5) which in these scenes consists of bread, fruit and sometimes fish. On the Heddernheim relief the attendants, dressed as torch-bearers, are offering baskets containing bread or fruit and Sol is handing his companion a bunch of grapes, a gift which Mithras regards with awe. A terra sigillata bowl found at Trier and probably used at the sacred meal shows how the attendant served the bread; at Dura-Europos we have already seen the gods receiving small pieces of meat skewered on a spit; in the representation of the repast in the Aventine Mithraeum a Lion is carrying a cake in a class dish. From the refuse-pits which are often discovered close to Mithraic sites the bones of bulls, boars, sheep, and birds have been found, and the natural deduction is that normally the bull's flesh was consumed and its blood drunk. However, if no bull was available or if the animal was too costly, one either had to be content with the flesh of other animals, generally smaller domesticated breeds, or else with bread and fish as substitutes for meat, and wine for blood. 'That bread and water were used in the mysteries by initiates of Mithras, that we know, or we can get to know,' writes Justin, one of the early Church Fathers. He is careful to use the word 'water' and not 'wine', although there is certain evidence for the use of wine. In the Mithraeum at Dura-Europos the expenses of the community are scratched on the walls, and at the head of the list come the charges for meat and wine. The bunch of grapes held in Sol's hand at Heddernheim points in the same direction (Fig. 24.). One of the attendants on a relief from Caetobriga in Portugal is emptying a jug into a large mixing-bowl, while the other has dropped his torch on the ground and is offering Sol a dish with what appear to be loaves of bread on it.
http://www.farvardyn.com/mithras4.phpAs we can see, the Mithrains had a cornucopia of different foods, and rituals that went along with their worship services. There is very little, if any, similarity between the practices of mithrains and those of Christians. I would also like to see if Mithrains believed that Mithra was present during these ceremonies, or not. By the way, this quote is from the same source that you quoted, and they accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.
Lastly, I would mention that Mythra was never crucified, or resurrected.
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After Mithras had accomplished his miraculous deeds he was said to have been carried up into the heavens in a chariot.
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For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn
I think the burden of proof is on you to show that Mirthrain similarities predate Christianity, and not vice versa.
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The same, if not more, practical value that christian rituals have.
Technically speaking, Christian practices don't have non-religious value either.
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Concession accepted - by your own admission the church did not aim to preserve the works of ancient writers.
I did not concede the point, I merely refused to encourage your obtuse request, but since you continue to press the point, I guess I have not choice but to humor you.
Here is a list of works we know were preserved by Medieval monks.
1. Aristotle
2. Cicero
3. Lucan
4. Pliny
5. Pliny
6. Trogus Pompeius
7. Virgil
8. Horace
9. Martial
10. Ovid
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The best know of those scholars of the Dark Ages was Alcuin, a polyglot theologian who worked closely with Charlemagne to restore study and scholarship in the whole of West-Central Europe. In describing the holdings of his library at York he mentions works by Aristotle, Cicero, Lucan, Pliny, Statius, Trogus Pompeius, Virgil. In his correspondence he mentions Horace, Ovid, Terence. And he was not alone. The abbot of Ferrieres (c. 805-862) Lupus quotes Cicero, Horace, Martial, Seutonius, and Virgil. The abbot of Fleury (c. 950-1104) demonstrated familiarity with Horace, Sallust, Terence, Virgil.
http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/Artic ... fault.aspxQuote:
I don't have to. I am not making the positive claim here.
You've made plenty of positive claims, which you have given very minor sources.
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I don't have internet at home. Now summarize the arguments, please.
Who doesn't have internet these days? Anyway, here are the arguments.
1. All ancient manuscripts, including ones from the medieval era and renaissance, contain errors and interpolations.
2. Most scholars view Josephuses passage as genuine after the interpolations are removed. More specifically:
4 regard the passge as entirly genuine.
6 accept the passage as mostly genuine.
20 regard it as reliable with some interpolations.
9 as reliable with several interpolations.
13 view it as totally unreliable.
In total, 41 scholars accept the passage, 13 don't accept it at all.
Source: Jewish scholar Louise Feldman
3. After the supposed interpolations are removed, the passage conveys the same meaning.
Interpolated version of Josephus:
Quote:
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
If we remove the sections that are considered most likely to be interpolations such as: "he was the Christ", "a teacher of me who receive the truth wit pleasure" etc. here is what we have.
Quote:
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works...He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles...And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him...And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
So, as we can see, if the passages are removed the passage still coveys the same basic meaning.
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Cite them now, you evasive little prick.
Once again, you continue the same policy. If I say something, you say I don't have a source. If I have a source, you say I am misquoting it. I'm sure if do quote the book for you, you will just say that the book is unreliable, so I'm not going to waste my time. However, I have already cited a web page that summarizes the content of the book. Lastly, I can't quote the book since it is not available online, and I am most certainly not going to sit here coping from the pages.
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So he was not excommunicated and your earlier claim for the church actively trying to prohibit slavery was a lie.
I never claimed that they actively tried to outlaw slavery. I did, however, claim that they ruled on the immorality of slavery.
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It was lip service, nothing more. The church did not care at all.
The problem with this claim is that the Church had no motivation to provide a "lip service", slavery was an accepted part of society back then, why exactly would the Church declare it immoral if they didn't really believe this? There was nothing for the church to gain by condemning slavery, in fact, they risked alienating two of their best allies. Also, why would the Church all of a sudden be worried about their reputation on slavery when in the 14th century they had no problem condoning the slavery of the Portugese Empire?
On a side note, I wonder if you are as critical of the Founding Fathers of The United States as you are of the Catholic Church, since the Founding Fathers also tolerated slavery.
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I repeat: evidence that any king of spain was ever even slighted by the church for using slavery.
Catholic theology dictates that if you violate any doctrine, you are automatically excommunicated without any need for the church to refuse access to churches, or send you an official declaration. This is what is called a Latae Sententiae. In fact, the Catholic church defines the declaration of excommunication as a declaration of a pre-existing condition, in other words, the catholic Church only "officially" excommunicates people to make a point. Here is the criteria for incurring said Excommunication:
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* an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic;
* a person who throws away the consecrated Eucharistic species or takes and retains them for a sacrilegious purpose;
* a person who uses physical force against the Pope;
* a priest who absolves an accomplice in a sin against the sixth commandment (against sexual sins) except in danger of death;
* a bishop who ordains someone a bishop without a pontifical mandate, and the person who receives the ordination from him;
* a confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal of confession;
* a person who procures a completed abortion; and
* accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.
Various other persons incur excommunication latae sententiae by papal decree, including:
* a person who violates the secrecy of a papal election, or who interferes with it by means such as simony;
* a woman who simulates ordination as a priest or a bishop who simulates the ordination of a woman as a priest.
Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:
* using physical force against a bishop;
* attempting to preside at Eucharist, or giving sacramental absolution, when not a priest;
* falsely denouncing a confessor for soliciting a penitent to sin against the sixth commandment;[17] and
* a perpetually professed religious who attempts marriage.
# ^ a b "Can. 1314". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4V.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1331". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4X.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Excommunication". Catholic Encyclopedia. New Advent.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1332". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4X.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1333". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4X.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Cann. 1321-1330". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4W.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1364". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1367". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ a b "Can. 1370". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P53.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ a b "Can. 1378". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P54.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1382". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P54.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1388". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P54.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1398". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P57.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1329". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4W.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ John Paul II. "Universi Dominici Gregis".
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ ... is_en.html. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ Vatican says will excommunicate women priests | International | Reuters
# ^ "Can. 1390". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P55.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
# ^ "Can. 1394". Code of Canon Law.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P56.HTM. Retrieved 2008-06-01.
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The first crusade required enormous logistical power by the Byzantines.
Hardly the same thing as the analogy you made.
Quote:
keep claiming that. Do I have to pull out the great laws that legalized this behaviour?
You still have yet to prove that the ROMAN Church enacted any suppression of science, since you were the one that insisted that they were always different churches. All you have shown is that a few emperors, who incidentally ruled in the eastern empire, ordered some of these things, and no merely "not condemning" the actions is not sufficient proof for a systematic suppression. You also continue to over look that these persecutions were not motivated by a desire to destroy science, but a desire to phase out paganism. Lastly, you continue to assert that these actions prove that the roman church was destroying necessary knowledge, but if that is true, how come the eastern empire, where all of this was taking place, continued to be an academic stronghold, as you yourself have said, while the Western Empire fell into a dark age?
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just the people the church consisted of were the ones killing them. Of course, because it were only the people doing it, no problem.
Only to destroy pagan philosophies and libraries. In any case, it did destroy a great deal of science. If the church cared about that, they could have prevented such destructions.
There was no difference back then between the two.
[/quote]
This would be the old "all apples are fruit, but not all fruits are apples" fallacy, all you have done is pointed out a few instances of mobs destroying temples and libraries and what not, and claiming that this was official church policy. If you can find me some Popes who advocated these things, then maybe you would have a point, but you haven't done that yet.
Anyway, you completely miss the point of my original argument, which was addressing the charge that there is a fundamental conflict between science and the church, a thesis you have not defended in the slightest. All you have shown is that some Christians indirectly destroyed science by oppressing pagans. "Indirectly" would be the operative word there. You have yet to show that the Church has ever enacted any widespread persecution of science itself, specifically for the purpose of suppressing scientific beliefs.
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