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 Post subject: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 03:11am
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basically a group of outcast humans who are hated, and shunned, because their ancestors left earth back during the age of technology using a sublight generation ship. Thus missing out on just about everything bad that happens since then. Because they traveled in a sublight G. ship, they never experenced the warp, because they were innoculated against bone loss by use of microscopic machines, they are labled as "Mutant Here-teks" by the modern imperium and the AM. And of course since they eventually landed and settled on a world eons after they left earth (Traveling at sublight speeds, with Time Dilation can do that), they formed a human culture that is actually someway technically backwards, and in many ways much more advanced then the imperium.

It was not until they finally run into rogue traders that they develop their own FTL capabilities, however their armour features shoot on the move, sloped armour, line of sight missiles, better sensors/tracking, some AI (Including the fact that the whole populace has some form of in body computers.

Since no one can be truely good in 40k, the following problems: 1. due to eons of travel through space their diet consists of recycled biological matter of all sorts (want synth fries with that soylent green pal), their diet also includes high dosages of otherwise toxic heavy metals (gotta feed those internal mechanical symbiots), they are more or less everythign that is good/bad about the age of technology. (EG think Greek City States or a Bruce Sterling/William Gibson novel)

weapons: Gyrojets (counts as bolters), line of sight Missiles (Kraken missiles with a +2 to BS, or ignore terrain), Heatguns (treat as Hellguns, Flamers, or Meltas depending on the settings)



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 03:54am
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Choas subverts them in short order. Why?

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they are more or less everythign that is good/bad about the age of technology. (EG think Greek City States or a Bruce Sterling/William Gibson novel)


They are fracturing bickering groups with everyone looking for some sort of edge to crush the others. Perfect for infiltration of any sort really.

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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 07:02am
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Lack of warp travel basicly prevents Chaos from ever touching them. And even then, these aren't 40k humans so they have even less of a warp connection.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 07:54am
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You don't need warp travel to have Chaos touch you. You could be a firm sublight civilization. Chaos is omnipresent in the 40k universe, and is made manifest by the thoughts and feelings of sentient sapient beings. If they lack psykers, if they're biologically distinct from 40k humans, then they will be safe from the worst of it. But these ARE bog-standard 40k humans, as Bear says in his OP.

At best, they'll be like the Tau, except based on one planet. Their best hope is to NOT get noticed by anyone at all.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 10:22am
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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
You don't need warp travel to have Chaos touch you. You could be a firm sublight civilization. Chaos is omnipresent in the 40k universe, and is made manifest by the thoughts and feelings of sentient sapient beings. If they lack psykers, if they're biologically distinct from 40k humans, then they will be safe from the worst of it. But these ARE bog-standard 40k humans, as Bear says in his OP.

At best, they'll be like the Tau, except based on one planet. Their best hope is to NOT get noticed by anyone at all.


Doesn't the amount of Chaos in the galaxy grow all the time, travelling and multiplying and seeping through the Eye? Once a trader comes isn't the planet going to be soiled like the rest of the universe?



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 11:26am
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The Eye of Terror isn't the source of Chaos. The source of Chaos is in the warp itself - that daemon-filled miasma between the stars, the tumultuous and hellish manifestation permeated by thoughts and feelings of both human and inhuman origin.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 11:35am
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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
You don't need warp travel to have Chaos touch you. You could be a firm sublight civilization. Chaos is omnipresent in the 40k universe, and is made manifest by the thoughts and feelings of sentient sapient beings. If they lack psykers, if they're biologically distinct from 40k humans, then they will be safe from the worst of it. But these ARE bog-standard 40k humans, as Bear says in his OP.

At best, they'll be like the Tau, except based on one planet. Their best hope is to NOT get noticed by anyone at all.


It needs a route to infest. Be it the psyker brains or an area where the viel is weak. From time to time, we see the direct action of godlike warp entities, (plucking Cypher and Abaddon away from harm) but for the most part, if there's no vector to get you, chaos isn't going to get you.

Of course, as soon as they're exposed to a chaos fleet or army, there'll be plenty of vector...



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 11:46am
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So in Dark Heresy, what does it mean when you become so corrupt as to gain a mutation as soon as the corruption is high enough, without needing to go near a psyker or a warp-space rift? To me that would indicate that there's little bits of Chaos everywhere, just enough so that it can slowly and inconspicously enter a person the more receptive (corrupt) they are. Going by this, a perfectly holy man could stand in front of the Eye itself and grin and wouldn't even sprout a tentacle.

Of course I'm basing this whole entirely on Role-Playing mechanisms, so it might not work that way.

So one could argue that if there's bits of background Chaos everywhere, it would have to get to someone eventually, especially if a bored demon takes interest on this amusing little culture and starts whispering certain suggestions through the veil.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 11:56am
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These ways can be created - all it needs are a few people starting to worship something SIMILAR to a chaos-god (even a minor one).
They will eventually be corrupted, especially if they are NOT aware of the dangers of Chaos.
Chaos can cover nearly every desire and emotion.

The Tau are only resitant to the indirect tainting of chaos because they hace a very small warp presence - but humans (even non-psychic ones) have a way greater warp presence.

And a faction with only a single planet can be wiped out pretty quickly - a small tyranid splinter fleet, orks, various alien species, a necron harves or even a few imperial explorers.

If you want to introduce some "modern tech" into 40K, you do not need a fancy story - just take a Adeptus Mechanicus or otherwise very developed world. After all, technology does not travel well in 40K - you can have a hiveworld and a medieval world next to each other.
If the tech is not based on a STK, the AdMech will not show much interest in it, either.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 12:46pm
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Zablorg wrote:
So in Dark Heresy, what does it mean when you become so corrupt as to gain a mutation as soon as the corruption is high enough, without needing to go near a psyker or a warp-space rift?
Gaining corruption points in the book involves the warp. "Dark Deeds" is specifically ones done in furtherance of chaotic goals or done to appease demons.

It does not give corruption points for general evil.

If your GM is giving you corruption points for general acts that are evil, he's doing it wrong. They're meant to represent 'the corrupting taint of Chaos.' You can burn ten thousand innocent people on a pyre, you don't get corruption unless you're doing to serve chaos, or are otherwise influenced by chaos. If you do it because you honestly think they're witches, you don't get any.

Looking at a chaos artwork gets you corruption points. Torturing a man for information does not; they're not about morality, they're about chaos exposure.
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starts whispering certain suggestions through the veil.
They're helpless without a psyker or other disturbance to get in through.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 01:37pm
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Ah. That changes their situation considerably. I thought corruption was a representation of how receptive to Chaos exposure you were that grew with contact to culty things, not a measure of exposure in itself.

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They're helpless without a psyker or other disturbance to get in through.


Canon's changed in that regard since the release of the Daemon codex, actually. I can't get a direct quote right now, but in a chapter where it discusses Daemon's effects on humanity, it states that with enough power a demon can weaken the fabric just enough so as to implant suggestions and seed the taint of corruption among man. The big ones can even send a whole portion of their essence through to possess someone to varying degrees.

The reason they don't do this all the time is because for the most part they're keenly focused on the actions of the other gods, with the state of humanity something of a background noise. Oh, they still have an intense desire to chause mayhem in the physical world where their actions stay unchanging, but that's more of a hobby now than a career.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 04:54pm
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Nanomachines are well understood by the Mechanicus. Several different types exist already in Dark Heresy. Advanced missile systems and semi-intelligent machines also exist. The Imperium already has soylent green. As for the horrors of the Dark Age of Technology, these guys don't really cut it. You need serious abuse of powerful technology to invoke that. Slaver implants, fleshworks that even the Imperium forbids, malefic machines, necromantic technologies, rogue AIs. These guys are just an independent human civilization, of which there are many, with good tech.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 08:02pm
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Nanotechnology is 'civilian' technology, at least on Necromunda; the nobles of Hive Primus occasionally descend into the Underhive to hunt the locals, wearing high-tech powered suits jam-packed with exotic weaponry and nanotech repair and enhancement systems. Granted, it's implied they buy them off the Tau (or at least that the Tau had a hand in their design).



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-19 11:46pm
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well also the point of their nano-tech, was originally to prevent bone loss and allow survival in the long journey to their eventual cluster of homeworlds. Now that they live on or in deep space (they do have deteriorating sublight generation ships.) it would act as a self repair, anti-carcinogen (anti-mutagen) system. probably giving the DH equivalent of auto-sanguines. Note the actual orginal "Crime" they committed agaisnt the imperium and the mechanicus was being too open with their knowledge. (they left early on in the Age of Technology before FTL was discovered, and didn't mind sharing their data with others, Including historical records that were in conflict with official records (and thus heresy)

So of course people called them many horrible things, the fact that their food is poisonus to just about everyone else who doesn't have nanoparasites inside them (currupt nobles, Adaptus Mechanicus, Space Marines etc.) Their reputation is more the result of rumors and accusations leveled against them back when the ministorium destroyed one of their generation ships, and declared them Heretic. their civilization is on the ass end of no where, in hopes of staying as far away from the rest of humanity as possible. Yes, they do have working AIs, but theirs aren't likely to go SHODAN/Frankienstine/HAL on them. Another point that annoys the rest of the humanity is that their government is Fractious and confusing, plus the fact that they deal with rogue traders for some of their nessessities, they do have dealings with some of the cults that are a danger to some people, after all they are purely sublight, and do need things from FTL capable civilizations, it's also suggestable that the civilization having brain/computer interface down long ago, has kept them from developing psychers on their own, or navigators.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 12:09am
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andrewgpaul wrote:
Nanotechnology is 'civilian' technology, at least on Necromunda; the nobles of Hive Primus occasionally descend into the Underhive to hunt the locals, wearing high-tech powered suits jam-packed with exotic weaponry and nanotech repair and enhancement systems. Granted, it's implied they buy them off the Tau (or at least that the Tau had a hand in their design).


I was gonna ask about that. What's the basis for that? I know they got them from off-world, but typically they aren't as "exotic" as that and they really don't have much in common with Tau tech in general.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 02:59am
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Connor MacLeod wrote:
andrewgpaul wrote:
Nanotechnology is 'civilian' technology, at least on Necromunda; the nobles of Hive Primus occasionally descend into the Underhive to hunt the locals, wearing high-tech powered suits jam-packed with exotic weaponry and nanotech repair and enhancement systems. Granted, it's implied they buy them off the Tau (or at least that the Tau had a hand in their design).


I was gonna ask about that. What's the basis for that? I know they got them from off-world, but typically they aren't as "exotic" as that and they really don't have much in common with Tau tech in general.


The current models of yeld suits have Tau symbols on them, and the tau writeups have things to the effect of 'their technology has been seen as far as Necromunda.'



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 03:08am
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That has to be the msot bizarre retcon ever. Why is it "If the Imperium has advanced tech, they MUST have gotten it from the TAU?"

There's nothing in the Yeld suits that even remotely hints at Tau... *grumble*



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 10:00am
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The Yosemite Bear wrote:
Another point that annoys the rest of the humanity is that their government is Fractious and confusing, plus the fact that they deal with rogue traders for some of their nessessities, they do have dealings with some of the cults that are a danger to some people, after all they are purely sublight, and do need things from FTL capable civilizations, it's also suggestable that the civilization having brain/computer interface down long ago, has kept them from developing psychers on their own, or navigators.

MIU's are very well developed Imperial technology so that premise doesn't fly at all. These guys are nothing special, just a high tech non-Imperial human civilization without warp travel. Nothing about them suggest the Dark Age of Technology.

On the Tau, as of "Scourge the Heretic" their tech has gotten as far as Calixus Sector.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 10:13am
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What Tau tech was there in Scourge the Heretic? Aside from the xeno-ship, which really isn't noteworthy.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 11:11am
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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
What Tau tech was there in Scourge the Heretic? Aside from the xeno-ship, which really isn't noteworthy.


You think a STL Tau military ship isn't noteworthy? :wtf:



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 11:53am
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What? They got a Tau ship, flew it into that place, and shot some folks with the intention to conduct some secret operation.

That's not as noteworthy as, say, Tau technology making its way into general consumption in an ubiquitous manner amongst the high classes or something - like those examples Connor brought up.

I mean, it's a weapon. Bad guys get exotic xeno-tech killy things all the time. It doesn't have any effect on the society of the Imperium of Man, doesn't state anything about how xeno influences pervades their culture or anything as unsettling as that.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 04:49pm
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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
What? They got a Tau ship, flew it into that place, and shot some folks with the intention to conduct some secret operation.

That's not as noteworthy as, say, Tau technology making its way into general consumption in an ubiquitous manner amongst the high classes or something - like those examples Connor brought up.

I mean, it's a weapon. Bad guys get exotic xeno-tech killy things all the time. It doesn't have any effect on the society of the Imperium of Man, doesn't state anything about how xeno influences pervades their culture or anything as unsettling as that.


That armour is used secretly by the wealthy elite of one world which sends troops and manufactured goods to every part of the Imperium. That includes worlds right next to the Tau. They aren't ubiquitous consumer goods in wide use, but expensive and rare heirloom items used in secret coming of age ordeals.

Calixus, on the other hand, is much, much further from Tau space and doesn't "possibly include Tau tech that someone on the chain of supply bargained for and included" but is a Tau military vessel that has been adapted for human use down to having computer read outs in Gothic. It is recognized as Tau tech because Tau tech is beginning to trickle into the region, despite Calixus being on the wrong side of the galaxy and in the fringes to boot.

Having the Tau water caste trade some somewhat high tech components to wealthy humans on a world that ships men and material all the way across the Imperium. That only requires a single rogue trader to accomplish legally and is nothing compared to getting your hands on a Tau combat vessel, adapting its computer interfaces for human use, and getting to the other side of the Imperium.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-20 07:25pm
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NecronLord wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:
andrewgpaul wrote:
Nanotechnology is 'civilian' technology, at least on Necromunda; the nobles of Hive Primus occasionally descend into the Underhive to hunt the locals, wearing high-tech powered suits jam-packed with exotic weaponry and nanotech repair and enhancement systems. Granted, it's implied they buy them off the Tau (or at least that the Tau had a hand in their design).


I was gonna ask about that. What's the basis for that? I know they got them from off-world, but typically they aren't as "exotic" as that and they really don't have much in common with Tau tech in general.


The current models of yeld suits have Tau symbols on them, and the tau writeups have things to the effect of 'their technology has been seen as far as Necromunda.'


The 3rd edition Codex: Tau has a small Tau glossary; including such words as,
J'Kaara (mirror)
Mal'caor (spider)
Or'es (strong) and
Y'eldi (Air Caste name for a particularly gifted pilot; (lit. Winged One)).

Oh, and on page 63, it spells it out in black and white:

Quote:
"More difficult to enforce is when such technology finds its way into the hands of those in positions of authority or are difficult to trace. One example is the hunting rig of the so called 'Spyre Hunter' gangs found in the Necromunda hive complexes (cf. Ordo Xenos file 4353/Alien Technology/B). These aristocratic ne'er-do-wells wear armoured battlesuits said to be self sustaining, self repairing and fully capable of recording the wearer's every action. The implications of the last facility are truly horrifying. Does the information return to the Tau? Have these aliens been using these technological abominations to spy on our cities for all these years? It is imperative that these gangs be made to hand over ther hunting rigs lest the Tau garner even more information regarding the Imperium"

-extract from Cogitation on the Evolutionary Process and Technological Heresy of the Tau Race, Genetor Secundus Zachary Santiago, 5432999.M41


NL, where are the Tau symbols on the Yeld Spyrers? I don't remember seeing that. Of course, last time I played against Spyrers in Necromunda, Tau hadn't been invented yet.



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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-21 02:28am
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Since when have the Tau had self-repairing battlesuits? :?

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 Post subject: Re: hard sci-fi inspired 40k idea PostPosted: 2009-01-21 02:51am
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The guy who made that observation is a paranoid fanatic- he fears that Tao contamination will reach Terra! Come on- if the Tao made that many battlesuits, the majority of their production demands would be foreign export.

He is constantly being subservient, sort of suggesting he is angling for a better position (and his constant "suggestions" seem to confirm it), so I wouldn't put it past him to be inflating the xeno threat to inflate the value of his position. For the good of the Imperium of course.

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