Gaza situation discussion

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Edi » 2009-01-13 08:54am

Israel seems to have a hard on for destroying hospitals and clinics run by foreign aid organizations. They specifically targeted one such clinic run by the Lutheran Church of Finland, though it had been evacuated beforehand because they suspected it would be targeted. It was, and levelled to the ground.

The casualty figures I'm seeing on Finnish news is ~900-1000 dead Palestinans to date, out of which reportedly ~300 children.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Edi » 2009-01-13 09:25am

bobalot, DEATH, the moratorium still applies.

For the rest of the audience, this is precisely why it is still in place, because it always goes the same way.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Bilbo » 2009-01-13 09:35am

Read the article. Tried not to laugh. Jimmy Carter gets used like a tool by Hamas, doesnt know it, and makes stupid statements about peace.

What a pathetic farce. The man truly is an idiot.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Darth Wong » 2009-01-13 09:37am

Bilbo wrote:Read the article. Tried not to laugh. Jimmy Carter gets used like a tool by Hamas, doesnt know it, and makes stupid statements about peace.

What a pathetic farce. The man truly is an idiot.

It's a good thing you're here with your vastly superior knowledge and experience in international affairs to set the record straight with your carefully thought-out correction and explanation, right?
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Bilbo » 2009-01-13 09:39am

Darth Wong wrote:
Bilbo wrote:Read the article. Tried not to laugh. Jimmy Carter gets used like a tool by Hamas, doesnt know it, and makes stupid statements about peace.

What a pathetic farce. The man truly is an idiot.

It's a good thing you're here with your vastly superior knowledge and experience in international affairs to set the record straight with your carefully thought-out correction and explanation, right?


Former President sits down with murderous bastards. Murderous bastards on the "word" of another arab want peace. Murderous bastards say a few pretty words and stop attacks for a short period. Former President now ignorant tool says stupid shit like "they want peace".

Yeah takes a lot of brains to figure that one out Wong.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Darth Wong » 2009-01-13 09:41am

Bilbo wrote:Former President sits down with murderous bastards. Murderous bastards on the "word" of another arab want peace. Murderous bastards say a few pretty words and stop attacks for a short period. Former President now ignorant tool says stupid shit like "they want peace".

Yeah takes a lot of brains to figure that one out Wong.

Ah, a truly brilliant analysis, complete with detailed justifications of your conclusions. You should submit that as an op/ed piece to newspapers around the country so that others can bask in your wisdom.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Beowulf » 2009-01-13 09:48am

The New York Times wrote:January 9, 2009
Fighter Sees His Paradise in Gaza’s Pain
By TAGHREED EL-KHODARY
GAZA CITY — The emergency room in Shifa Hospital is often a place of gore and despair. On Thursday, it was also a lesson in the way ordinary people are squeezed between suicidal fighters and a military behemoth.

Dr. Awni al-Jaru, 37, a surgeon at the hospital, rushed in from his home here, dressed in his scrubs. But he came not to work. His head was bleeding, and his daughter’s jaw was broken.

He said Hamas militants next to his apartment building had fired mortar and rocket rounds. Israel fired back with force, and his apartment was hit. His wife, Albina, originally from Ukraine, and his 1-year-old son were killed.

“My son has been turned into pieces,” he cried. “My wife was cut in half. I had to leave her body at home.” Because Albina was a foreigner, she could have left Gaza with her children. But, Dr. Jaru lamented, she would not leave him behind.

A car arrived with more patients. One was a 21-year-old man with shrapnel in his left leg who demanded quick treatment. He turned out to be a militant with Islamic Jihad. He was smiling a big smile.

“Hurry, I must get back so I can keep fighting,” he told the doctors.

He was told that there were more serious cases than his, that he needed to wait. But he insisted. “We are fighting the Israelis,” he said. “When we fire we run, but they hit back so fast. We run into the houses to get away.” He continued smiling.

“Why are you so happy?” this reporter asked. “Look around you.”

A girl who looked about 18 screamed as a surgeon removed shrapnel from her leg. An elderly man was soaked in blood. A baby a few weeks old and slightly wounded looked around helplessly. A man lay with parts of his brain coming out. His family wailed at his side.

“Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked.

“But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.”
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Ryan Thunder » 2009-01-13 09:53am

Carter wrote:[...] Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

What the hell is a defensive tunnel for them? What are they going to do with it? :?

Bilbo wrote:Yeah takes a lot of brains to figure that one out Wong.

Man, is it just me, or is calling Mike "Wong" the hallmark of an idiot? I've only ever seen idiots and trolls do it.

Beowulf wrote:“We are fighting the Israelis,” he said. “When we fire we run, but they hit back so fast. We run into the houses to get away.” He continued smiling.

“Why are you so happy?” this reporter asked. “Look around you.”

[...]

“Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked.

“But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.”


:wtf:
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Darth Wong » 2009-01-13 09:58am

Of course they want to be martyrs. They believe that their war against Israel is a holy crusade (yes, I'm using the English word "crusade" instead of "jihad", because the two words mean the same thing). What the right-wingers don't understand is that this belief in the righteousness of their crusade is enhanced, not weakened, by ruthless actions on the part of Israel or the US. They believe that if they just butcher enough people, this insanity will stop. But this particular kind of insanity is not deterred by butchery.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-13 10:06am

Ryan Thunder wrote:What the hell is a defensive tunnel for them? What are they going to do with it? :?


Hide in it, store supplies, and use it to spring out & initiate surprise attacks against ground forces. Sort of a bunker with options.


“We are fighting the Israelis,” he said. “When we fire we run, but they hit back so fast. We run into the houses to get away.” He continued smiling.

“Why are you so happy?” this reporter asked. “Look around you.”

[...]

“Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked.

“But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.”


And here we have an excellent insight into why the area is fucked up and likely to remain so for quite awhile. :?

And, Bilbo-- Carter isn't the only one. Bear in mind a lot of Arab states are in fact trying to leash Hamas and make peace with Israel. There's been a solid plan on the table that the Arabs sponsored since March of 2002. Hamas rocks the boat, and especially these days, where even the oil states are feeling the economic pinch, the last thing they need is expansion of an expensive and unecessary war, and rioting citizens. That said, they also feel a certain obligation to support Palestinians rhetorically, at the minimum.

Carter is trying because it's all he can do. Everyone in the region knows the Hamasniks are thugs or brainwashed True Believers like Mr. Martyr above. That makes the process very difficult, but you have to find a way to get the thugs and whackos to stop firing long enough to make a deal and get a real government or organization to move in and actually do something.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-13 10:08am

Edi wrote:Israel seems to have a hard on for destroying hospitals and clinics run by foreign aid organizations...


Or Hamas fighters tend to hide around or cluster around such buildings, either in the hope the Israelis won't hit them or if they do, and the UN/3rd country personnel die, then another country's outrage will join with the Palestinians against Israel.
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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2009-01-13 10:09am

Former President sits down with murderous bastards. Murderous bastards on the "word" of another arab want peace. Murderous bastards say a few pretty words and stop attacks for a short period. Former President now ignorant tool says stupid shit like "they want peace".

Yeah takes a lot of brains to figure that one out Wong.


While I don't know about the particular incident in question, I doubt Jimmy Carter of all people is what I'd call "ignorant." Also, I like how you appear to dismiss the "word" of someone in the context of pointing out they're an arab. Any reason why you would feel that an arab's word is worth less?

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Ender » 2009-01-13 10:27am

Jon Stewart launched into a criticism of this on TDS' first new episode of the year. And he and the show have been apparently taking some heavy flak from politicians, sponsors, viewers, etc. Here is a site to send him and the crew your thoughts on their segment, including a clip of the segment.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-13 11:31am

Ender wrote:Jon Stewart launched into a criticism of this on TDS' first new episode of the year. And he and the show have been apparently taking some heavy flak from politicians, sponsors, viewers, etc.


What's their angle? TDS (indeed, all streaming) is blocked at my work.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby ray245 » 2009-01-13 12:15pm

Coyote wrote:
Ender wrote:Jon Stewart launched into a criticism of this on TDS' first new episode of the year. And he and the show have been apparently taking some heavy flak from politicians, sponsors, viewers, etc.


What's their angle? TDS (indeed, all streaming) is blocked at my work.


Really simple stuff. Simply saying there is no good or bad in regards to both parties in that conflict.

On their forum, it has caused a huge uproar.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Illuminatus Primus » 2009-01-13 12:23pm

Ender wrote:Jon Stewart launched into a criticism of this on TDS' first new episode of the year. And he and the show have been apparently taking some heavy flak from politicians, sponsors, viewers, etc. Here is a site to send him and the crew your thoughts on their segment, including a clip of the segment.


Of course, because the one thing you can NEVER criticize is Isreal. Seriously, I think criticism of the AFGHAN war effort after 9/11 or discussion of blowback and moral culpability on the part of the U.S. was more tolerated than criticism of Israel.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-13 12:46pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Of course, because the one thing you can NEVER criticize is Isreal. Seriously, I think criticism of the AFGHAN war effort after 9/11 or discussion of blowback and moral culpability on the part of the U.S. was more tolerated than criticism of Israel.


People criticise Israel constantly, and not just here. Only the most hard-core right wingers refuse to criticise Israel; they treat Israel with softer kid gloves than most Israelis I've met.

What are you trying to do/say?
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Kanastrous » 2009-01-13 12:51pm

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Photographic evidence of people NEVER criticizing Israel.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2009-01-13 01:01pm

ray245 wrote:Really simple stuff. Simply saying there is no good or bad in regards to both parties in that conflict.

On their forum, it has caused a huge uproar.



Not really. It seemed more to me like "both sides suck, and the American media sucks for just saying Hamas sucks. Yeah, everybody sucks." :D

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Darth Wong » 2009-01-13 01:15pm

Coyote wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Of course, because the one thing you can NEVER criticize is Isreal. Seriously, I think criticism of the AFGHAN war effort after 9/11 or discussion of blowback and moral culpability on the part of the U.S. was more tolerated than criticism of Israel.

People criticise Israel constantly, and not just here. Only the most hard-core right wingers refuse to criticise Israel; they treat Israel with softer kid gloves than most Israelis I've met.

What are you trying to do/say?

Obviously, he's talking about the major US news networks. Yes, we know that individuals criticize Israel, especially in urban areas like the one where Kanastrous took that picture above from. But that doesn't mean the news media is doing the same.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Admiral Valdemar » 2009-01-13 01:20pm

There have been plenty of pro-Palestine rallies over here, some violent too. The media seems to focus a lot on the Palestinian plight too, though I see ITN as being more anti-Israel/pro-Pal than the Beeb currently.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Darth Wong » 2009-01-13 01:22pm

The BBC is COMPLETELY different from news coverage in North America. It's like night and day, switching back and forth between them.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Admiral Valdemar » 2009-01-13 01:26pm

Without a doubt. I've seen plenty of FOX, CNN, MSNBC and the like to know that, as with the government, the networks there are almost exclusively pro-Israel. Over here, you can often see variations in how supportive for a side the networks are at any one time. Right now, I don't get as big a pro-Palestinian vibe off the BBC as I did during previous actions, but ITN seems to have plenty of pieces from the ground in Gaza, especially showing the carnage and not really talking to IDF soldiers, which the BBC has been doing.

Over here the bias is more to sympathy for the Gazans to varying degrees, unlike the staunch Israeli lobby party that run TV news in the States.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Count Chocula » 2009-01-13 01:43pm

There has indeed been some rather vociferous, and downright hateful, anti-Israel rhetoric at organized rallies. The link above is from a Ft. Lauderdale rally (text and YouTube video). In LA, a protester was recorded saying "Hitler should have finished the job!" So, yeah, there's anti-Israel sentiment in America. It's just not institutional.

There's some fruit-hatin' going on too (from Little Green Footballs).
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-13 01:59pm

I guess it depends on the media; I read MSNBC on the computer and get news from Huffington Post, and on those sites it's all "Israel Attacks!" and dozens of pictures of grieving and wounded Gazans at the hands of marauding Israelis. Hamas exists primarily as a voice to apply to all Gazans, and there's very little word about rocket attacks into Israel except at the moment they happen... or as a backdrop to underscore the rediculous parody that is Joe the Plumber. :?





EDIT: And, of course, there's the 'anti-Juicites' of the world. :lol:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!


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