Connor MacLeod wrote:So what? Tierce was still more human seeming than the Spaarti-created clones apparently were. They were explicilty described as being distinctively unusual and unsettling (which was borne out by the Skywalker clone) whereas the clones in HoT Duology were not immediately noticable as clones. It makes perfect sense for the Fel clones to have more developed personalities as well because infiltration would be a big part of their purpose (they have to blend in in other words.) And Tierce was a special (failed) project.
As I rely on a translation, I cannot be entirely certain, of course, but nothing in my edition seems to imply that Thrawn's clones were the "meat droids" you speak of. Highly disciplined, unsettlingly calm under fire, yes, but when are they actually considered inhuman? I know there is a lot of stuff about Luke thinking they feel "wrong" in the Force, but as far as I know he does not think they are psychologically "subhuman" (which Force users can notice - see the mindwiped slave troops in
Children of the Jedi, for example); he only thinks it unnatural that they all share the same personality.
As for C'baoth... they cloned C'baoth to begin with, so I don't see what "force sensitivity" has to do with it (nevermind the Luke clone.) And what does "madness" have to do with the flash imprinting? I think its quite obvous they wouldn't use C'baoht himself, but I fail to see why that automatically means they CAN'T USE FLASH IMPRINTING AT ALL. Maybe you could actually justify this allegation?
Very easily: The very point for them to use C'baoth or a clone is his mastery of the Force, specifically grand mindfuckery. Now, the Thrawn faction does not appear to have any other Force-sensitives available (I suppose the Inquisitorius
et al were holed up in the Deep Core), certainly none with anything close to his abilities. Since flash-imprinting is based on the memories and skills of others, you need someone who knows the Force to provide a template if you want an adequately trained Force user. Thus, Thrawn concludes that they would have to train him by other means, which is presumably why he suggests an old-fashioned "cloning-and-upbringing" solution.
There's a vast difference between "elite" troops or even "highly skilled" troops and "conscripts." And as I pointed out to Thanas that can encompass far more than merely training.
I fail to see the relevance; fresh troops you raise to fight in an intergalactic will, for the most part, not be highly skilled or elite. The clones only need to be as good as Joe Average to make a better proposition head for head, with their shorter growth and training times. They can easily replace the Army and be used for occupation and such; you might still bring forth Stormies by other means, or you might accept the drop in quality for casualty-heavy units.
You have proof he had no training? That was merely conjecture in the novel itself, and I recall no source at all suggesting he was a completely empty clone. That would also fly in the face of the fact C'baoth wanted an "even" fight - rather pointless if C'baoth is fighting the clone like a puppet. And if he really WAS providing it all its power/strenght/whatever, why didnt C'baoth just boost the clone's skills once Mara Jade took over?
Who would they use for the flash-learning? C'baoth himself? And there are, in my translation at least, a large number of references to how C'baoth wants the Skywalkers/Solos to "reshape" them and "mould them in his own image" which points towards mindfuckery. Hell, he was brainwashing Luke on Jomark.
As for Covell.. did you forget the bits where C'baoth had to mumble orders to Covell? Or where Covell acted abnormally due to C'baoth's messing with his mind? Covell behaved nothing like the Luuke clone (both Selid's description of Covell in TLC and the incident as novelized in the WEG TLC sourcebook, I should add) which makes it unlikely there was any similarity.
And that was inside Mount Tantiss, where the Ysalamiri supposedly cancelled his power, with Covell obeying his every whim when he promised to "make the emptiness go away" (or somesuch - again, my rough retranslation). At least I infered that he was mindfucked before, and felt the deprivation from C'baoth's guidance rather hard. As for the WEG book, I have no idea what that says; does it retcon it to any large extent?
From what I can gather its in the novel Order 66 (I havent read a RC novel since Triple Zero, so I can't confirm or deny this independently) but from what I can tell the bit about there being a qualitative difference between Kamino clones and Spaarti clones is mentioned. How is this "wank" rather than simply being due to trade-offs? Its not exactly a simple either/or phenomenon.
Before I accept that there are
such major differences, or basically that the Spaarti stormtroopers (rather than teh invinsibul Mandoa'h!) are retards who fight like Klingons, I want a primary source, preferably a quote. As it stands, that unsupported statement fits a little too well with the fanwankers' dreams ("LOLZ clones are teh awsum and Stormies are poor soldiers - hur hur we saw it in teh movies!")
In any case, enough with the "tossing stuff out because I don't like it" bullshit (First Zahn, now this). If you can't deal with a source without arbitrarily tossing it out because it doesn't fit with your preconceptions, then don't fucking debate because its a really goddamn dishonest thing to do.
Did I throw out Zahn? I quoted TTT on several questions! At most, I attempt to reinterpret it when it produces minimalism and counter-intuitive results, or where it is superseded by newer material. As for Traviss, I
am fucking throwing her out, and not afraid of admitting it - or should you use Goto's books for 40k? She is so absurdly removed from the established setting that that is the solution that hurts the least.
And what do you base this assumption on, exactly?
The fact that flash-learning apparently instills whole lives and identities (in typical cases, perhaps it was different with those Fel clones), and such things would take much longer to learn (i.e., encompass much more information) than learning a trade. Giving someone a personality should be rather more difficult than teaching him how to run a targeting computer, which would take a comparatively short.
How does this alter the fact Tierce was, in point of fact, a failure? Settling for less than what you aimed for (even when it involves partial imprinting of Thrawn) is hardly a "success" and only serves to indicate that there ARE definite limits to the flash-imprinting process.
That the experiment was exceptional, mixing flash-learning from two radically different personalities? This will not be required for any standard clone. And the fact that Thrawn's skills are hardly ordinary.
I am not saying that there are no limits, but the limit Tierce demonstrates is set so high that it becomes rather irrelevant. As noted, Tierce
was a partial success, and given that he was the product of such unusual circumstances, it says very little about the caps on ordinary cloning.
