What if: Communist America

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What if: Communist America

Post by Aranfan » 2008-11-29 11:01pm

Inspired by the Communist America vs Capitalist Russia thread over in Space Battles.

What if instead of FDR, during the Great Depression we got a President who dropped the ball badly enough that the American Communist Party got voted into power?

How does the rest of the World react to the USA going Commie? What is a Communist America going to be like?




PS. As a second, related Scenario, what if the above happens after the Whites win the Russian Civil War?

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by ray245 » 2008-11-29 11:51pm

Aranfan wrote:Inspired by the Communist America vs Capitalist Russia thread over in Space Battles.

What if instead of FDR, during the Great Depression we got a President who dropped the ball badly enough that the American Communist Party got voted into power?

How does the rest of the World react to the USA going Commie? What is a Communist America going to be like?




PS. As a second, related Scenario, what if the above happens after the Whites win the Russian Civil War?
Bear in mind, in regards to alternate history, we can never paint an accurate picture of what will happened in the long run. Will the Communist USA become a social welfare state like the UK? Will it become a communist in name nation like modern day China?

We can never know.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Aranfan » 2008-11-29 11:57pm

ray245 wrote:
Aranfan wrote:Inspired by the Communist America vs Capitalist Russia thread over in Space Battles.

What if instead of FDR, during the Great Depression we got a President who dropped the ball badly enough that the American Communist Party got voted into power?

How does the rest of the World react to the USA going Commie? What is a Communist America going to be like?




PS. As a second, related Scenario, what if the above happens after the Whites win the Russian Civil War?
Bear in mind, in regards to alternate history, we can never paint an accurate picture of what will happened in the long run. Will the Communist USA become a social welfare state like the UK? Will it become a communist in name nation like modern day China?

We can never know.
That is a cop out and you know it. All I'm asking for is informed guesses.

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Samuel » 2008-11-30 12:04am

Given that the US had active facists, a push toward communism would lead to civil war.

The rest of the world would act extremely negatively- communism in one country just got a second foothold.

For how it would look and if the Russians were whites...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_in_the_USSA

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Aranfan » 2008-11-30 12:13am

Ah, but keep in mind, here we're assuming the Communists gained power legitimately through the democratic process during a time when Capitalism is apparently falling apart at the seems. I very much doubt the Fascists could beat the US army, I also very much doubt that the US would resort to debating politics with bullets again. We aren't nearly as prone to that sort of thing as most other people (Or we don't seem to be anyway).



And how would the various fascist nations react? I can just see Hitler and Mussolini crapping themselves at the news.

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by K. A. Pital » 2008-11-30 01:43am

The USA didn't have many communists after the first Red Scare, so the premise is dubious at best. Next, if something close to communism gets elected (Technocratic Party for example), and declares itself Marxist later on...

Well, the fascists in Europe will of course have quite a few shivers (two commie great powers = bad for them), as will just about everyone else.

Consequence three: US help in Soviet industrialization just got greatly increased. US and USSR become an alliance based on industrial technology and the most modern industries are ported into the USSR (much like in reality, but the USSR won't have to pay as much for the industrial experts and blueprints).

Consequence four: with a really modern Industrial nation converted to communism, the USSR and the communist movement around the world is greatly re-invigorated. The Comintern actually aquires a meaning. Moreover, communist industrial development will proceed much futher - instead of being locked into agrarian, low-industrial nations and forced to create industry from Level Zero, communist nations are now in possession of the most modern technologies of the capitalist world.

It may be so that in case WOrld War II happens, it would be a war between communist and fascist powers. The British Empire would be a minor issue and sidelined by both parties.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Sidewinder » 2008-11-30 01:57am

Regardless if Russia becomes a capitalist (maybe Fascist?) state or also becomes Communist, I think it would've become a rival superpower after WWII. With Communist Parties in power in both nations, they'll make the Sino-Soviet Split look like an argument between a Frenchman's wife and mistress.

Personally, I doubt the US will become a real Communist state. Those things demand such conformity from their citizens, it's a virtue to be an anonymous cog in the machine, while the Americans have idealized "individuality" and "independence" since 1776, making heroes out of pioneers like Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone, real mavericks like Andrew Jackson, rebels like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. A United Soviet States of America (USSA) will likely pursue economic policies similar to China under Deng Xiaoping, only without the astronomical task of fixing the monstrous mess left by the Cultural Revolution.
Stas Bush wrote:Well, the fascists in Europe will of course have quite a few shivers (two commie great powers = bad for them), as will just about everyone else.
Considering the American public supported isolationism up to the Attack on Pearl Harbor, i.e., they didn't think American blood should be shed on European soil, for European nations' sake, I don't think the Fascists have much to worry about. Mexico, Central and South America might "fall" to Communism after the US, but if the USSA government tries to spread the Communist Revolution to Asia, Africa, and Europe, i.e., do what Lenin and Trotsky tried to do through the Comintern, the American Commies can kiss all that political power "goodbye."
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by K. A. Pital » 2008-11-30 02:28am

Sidewinder wrote:American Commies can kiss all that political power "goodbye."
You are seriously underestimating America's sheer industrial power. It can fuck the world over.
Sidewinder wrote:I think it would've become a rival superpower after WWII.
Why exactly? The Sino-Soviet split arose between Russia and China not least due to an ideological split. If there is an ideological co-relation between USSA and USSR, why would they be rivals? USSR and E. Europe Soviet nations generally followed each other's ideology. Even the animosity between USSR and Yugoslavia was not that big enough to count as "rivalry".
Sidewinder wrote:Those things demand such conformity from their citizens, it's a virtue to be an anonymous cog in the machine, while the Americans have idealized "individuality" and "independence" since 1776
Just set up a Stakhanovite movement and idolize individual success in labour, inventions, etc. Pretty much what the USSR did. Make industrial workers and factory chiefs famous through excellence. Then you will have people still motivated by individualism, albeit under state supervision ;)
Sidewinder wrote:A United Soviet States of America (USSA) will likely pursue economic policies similar to China under Deng Xiaoping
Why? If anything, the USSA is already industrialized. It will proceed with nationalizing everything. It will not need either Collectivization or Industrialization, since both will be achieved already by the gigantic agricultural and industrial corporations which will then be nationalized. Effectively afterwards the leadership can claim that socialism has been fully achieved.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Sidewinder » 2008-11-30 03:27am

Stas Bush wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:American Commies can kiss all that political power "goodbye."
You are seriously underestimating America's sheer industrial power. It can fuck the world over.
And until the Zimmermann Telegram was revealed, most of that industrial power was used to make commercial goods; what war materiel the US manufactured before it declared war on Germany in WWI, was exported to the UK and France. Between the end of WWI and the Attack on Pearl Harbor, most of that industrial power was again used to make commercial goods. Basically, the pre-WWII popularity of isolationism means the American public will not support military adventures outside of the Americas as long as America itself isn't threatened or attacked.
Sidewinder wrote:I think it would've become a rival superpower after WWII.
Why exactly? The Sino-Soviet split arose between Russia and China not least due to an ideological split. If there is an ideological co-relation between USSA and USSR, why would they be rivals?
The USSR and China were competing for influence over other nations, with a rivalry as fierce as the one between the Soviets and the US. Post WWII, the USSA will definitely find reasons to compete for influence, e.g., over the Middle East and other resource rich nations.

And then there's the Monroe Doctrine, which states, "Central and South America are within America's sphere of influence. All you European nations better stop founding colonies in our sphere of influence." (The US almost went to war to overthrow the puppet government that Napoleon III set up in Mexico.) That means a USSA will not tolerate USSR support of Communist revolutionaries in Central and South America.
Sidewinder wrote:A United Soviet States of America (USSA) will likely pursue economic policies similar to China under Deng Xiaoping
Why? If anything, the USSA is already industrialized. It will proceed with nationalizing everything. It will not need either Collectivization or Industrialization, since both will be achieved already by the gigantic agricultural and industrial corporations which will then be nationalized. Effectively afterwards the leadership can claim that socialism has been fully achieved.
Remember Voluntaryist's ridiculous claims that in a Libertarian society, a person who's dissatisfied with the Ford Motor Company can simply found a new car company to build a car that'll satisfy his/her needs? That's an extreme example, but I'm certain there will be relatively wealthy people who, when dissatisfied with a nationalized corporation, attempt to found a new company to build products to satisfy their needs. Maybe a clothing brand that makes lingerie because the nationalized clothing manufacturers refuse to make sexy underwear for women?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by K. A. Pital » 2008-11-30 07:52am

Sidewinder wrote:Basically, the pre-WWII popularity of isolationism means the American public will not support military adventures outside of the Americas as long as America itself isn't threatened or attacked.
Communism is already an interventionist ideology, not an isolationist one. If there are communists in power and you sing the Internationale, I don't think America would just seclude itself.
Sidewinder wrote:Post WWII, the USSA will definitely find reasons to compete for influence, e.g., over the Middle East and other resource rich nations.
The USSR is a resource-rich nation. The USSR does not need oil, for it has plenty and even sells it to everyone. For all we can presume, it will help it's brotherly nation the USSA to build a People's Republic of Islam or something and pump the hell out of the Middle East.
Sidewinder wrote:That means a USSA will not tolerate USSR support of Communist revolutionaries in Central and South America.
I would presume teh USSA will make those revolutions themselves even before the USSR starts doing anything. We are looking at a vastly different history here. The USA is now a force for communism, and given it's industrial power, a far more potent one than the USSR. And that's saying something.

The USSR tried to intervene in LA since it would give it a foothold near the USA and the possibility to "equal the odds", place weaponry near the USA, bases, friendly nations and their armies, all that. Now we don't have the need for competition, because the USSR can take over Europe - America would not care - and the USSA can take over South America.
Sidewinder wrote:That's an extreme example, but I'm certain there will be relatively wealthy people who, when dissatisfied with a nationalized corporation, attempt to found a new company to build products to satisfy their needs.
But so who cares? If they are party people, they can always buy it from somewhere abroad. If they are general workers, why would they be wealthy in the first place? ;) The mere presence of rich people does not bear a relation to the political doctrine of a nation - they should be in power. If we are talking about a communist revolution, wealthy people are not in power already, and will be removed from power for a long time - maybe forever.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Stormbringer » 2008-11-30 01:16pm

Stas Bush wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:Basically, the pre-WWII popularity of isolationism means the American public will not support military adventures outside of the Americas as long as America itself isn't threatened or attacked.
Communism is already an interventionist ideology, not an isolationist one. If there are communists in power and you sing the Internationale, I don't think America would just seclude itself.
I wouldn't necessarily take it for granted that the US, even if Communist, would be interventionist at this point. Any strain of Communism that would flourish in the US is likely to be distinctly different than Soviet communism. Russia was more interventionist but that can be attributed in part to Russian national character and European politics in general. It probably didn't help either that it was revolutionary Communism pitted against the intervention of various foreign powers. That lead to a pretty strong do unto other before they do unto you attitude.

By contrast, the American public, even in the last fifty years of our history, has been inclined to neglect the world outside entirely whenever possible. In this scenario, a failed New Deal leading to a Communist electoral sweep, is distinctly unlikely to produce the sort of outward looking attitude you're taking for granted. It's far more likely that any US Red government would in fact be less inclined towards spreading revolution and more in putting the US house in order.

The US probably would look and operate very similarly to the US historically. In effect, there would be extremely limited interventions and a gradual extension of the sphere of influence and trade. In fact, I dare say the US may well look at the USSR as being dangerously unstable and apt to cause trouble.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Sidewinder » 2008-11-30 04:18pm

Stas Bush wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:Basically, the pre-WWII popularity of isolationism means the American public will not support military adventures outside of the Americas as long as America itself isn't threatened or attacked.
Communism is already an interventionist ideology, not an isolationist one. If there are communists in power and you sing the Internationale, I don't think America would just seclude itself.
Remember "No blood for oil"?

Imagine it's the 1930s, and the Republicans are asking the USSA to intervene in their favor during the Spanish Civil War. If the Communist government of the US announced it would convert to a war economy and begin drafting soldiers to intervene in fucking Europe, do you think this government will remain in power? Doubtful. The US suffered draft riots, i.e., people rioting because they didn't want to fight a war they think is none of their business, in the American Civil War! An attempt to spread Communism outside the Americas will likely result in a major loss of public support for the Communist government.

If you're wondering why I continue to believe a USSA is willing to go to war over Central and South America, look in the mirror. Why is Russia so upset that the Bush Administration tried to recruit Ukraine and Georgia into NATO? Now imagine how upset the USSA would be if the USSR tried to do something similar to the Americas, i.e., include an area the Americans consider to be within their sphere of influence, within a foreign nation's sphere of influence.
Sidewinder wrote:That's an extreme example, but I'm certain there will be relatively wealthy people who, when dissatisfied with a nationalized corporation, attempt to found a new company to build products to satisfy their needs.
But so who cares? If they are party people, they can always buy it from somewhere abroad. If they are general workers, why would they be wealthy in the first place? ;) The mere presence of rich people does not bear a relation to the political doctrine of a nation - they should be in power. If we are talking about a communist revolution, wealthy people are not in power already, and will be removed from power for a long time - maybe forever.
And if they're not Party people? Spend many times the "official" price of a product, to get it from the black market?

At the very least, you'll have bake sales (American housewives baking cookies and cupcakes, and selling them at local schools and stores, with the consent and even support of the school administrators and store owners), lemonade stands (American children setting up a table on the sidewalk outside their homes, and selling drinks to thirsty passersby in the summer), and the neighbor who's good with tools and is willing to fix a leak in your roof, for a price lower than what the local contractor would charge. I doubt these amateur entrepreneurs will disappear from the USSA, at least, not if the Communist government wants to avoid another revolution with the specific goal of overthrowing it.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Aranfan » 2008-11-30 06:57pm

Sidewinder wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:Basically, the pre-WWII popularity of isolationism means the American public will not support military adventures outside of the Americas as long as America itself isn't threatened or attacked.
Communism is already an interventionist ideology, not an isolationist one. If there are communists in power and you sing the Internationale, I don't think America would just seclude itself.
Remember "No blood for oil"?

Imagine it's the 1930s, and the Republicans are asking the USSA to intervene in their favor during the Spanish Civil War. If the Communist government of the US announced it would convert to a war economy and begin drafting soldiers to intervene in fucking Europe, do you think this government will remain in power? Doubtful. The US suffered draft riots, i.e., people rioting because they didn't want to fight a war they think is none of their business, in the American Civil War! An attempt to spread Communism outside the Americas will likely result in a major loss of public support for the Communist government.
True, but if the Communist administration can get people back to work and put food on the tables again then anything short of war would be fine and probably supported. The USSA might not actually ship out troops to Spain, but they would be able to openly sell arms, food (instead of paying the farmers not to grow, give/sell the surplus to other nations), and possibly training personnel to the republicanos. If the American Public has employment and food, then so long as you aren't blocking traffic or declaring war we don't really give a damn.




Also, the next Comintern is going to be interesting. The power dynamic just changed and Stalin isn't the biggest fish in the pond anymore. The American Communists at the Comintern aren't some upstarts from overseas anymore, they are now the representatives of the most powerful economy on the planet.

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Stormbringer » 2008-11-30 08:39pm

Aranfan wrote:True, but if the Communist administration can get people back to work and put food on the tables again then anything short of war would be fine and probably supported. The USSA might not actually ship out troops to Spain, but they would be able to openly sell arms, food (instead of paying the farmers not to grow, give/sell the surplus to other nations), and possibly training personnel to the republicanos. If the American Public has employment and food, then so long as you aren't blocking traffic or declaring war we don't really give a damn.
What makes you think that the hypothetical Communist US government would be any more eager to get involved than it was historically? We're not talking about revolutionary communism here with the associated yen for spreading the revolution. Remember that according to the hypothetical scenario, they got in via an election after the New Deal failed spectacularly. It's an elected government that's going to be considering what the American people want and how to keep their seats. There are going to be plenty of priorities far ahead of intervention in Europe for them.

Speaking of that, exactly what is going to be the motivation for them to get involved at all?
Aranfan wrote:Also, the next Comintern is going to be interesting. The power dynamic just changed and Stalin isn't the biggest fish in the pond anymore. The American Communists at the Comintern aren't some upstarts from overseas anymore, they are now the representatives of the most powerful economy on the planet.
Again, that depends on the US being significantly more interested in foreign affairs than it was. I'm not at all certain this hypothetical US government would want to become leaders of world communism.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Sidewinder » 2008-11-30 09:02pm

Stas Bush wrote:The USA is now a force for communism, and given it's industrial power, a far more potent one than the USSR. And that's saying something.
Please don't make the same mistake that certain US government leaders (cough! George W. Bush! Lyndon B. Johnson! Woodrow Wilson! cough!) made, i.e., believe bullshit that the US intervenes in other nations for their benefit, because the American ideals of freedom and democracy are too good not to share.

US intervention has always been for American interests. If the US becomes a Communist state, it will not become a force for Communism, it will remain a force for American interests. If the Communist government loses sight of this and ends up believing its own propaganda, it'll become as hated as the George W. Bush and the Republicans during the 2008 elections, and share their fate, i.e., lose power.
The USSR tried to intervene in LA since it would give it a foothold near the USA and the possibility to "equal the odds", place weaponry near the USA, bases, friendly nations and their armies, all that. Now we don't have the need for competition, because the USSR can take over Europe - America would not care - and the USSA can take over South America.
This will require a non-aggression pact between the USSR and USSA, to avoid fuckups like the UK and France getting sucked (and suckered) into a war for the sake of Serbia, whose fate, realistically speaking, had zero effect upon either power until the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990s.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by K. A. Pital » 2008-11-30 09:17pm

Sidewinder wrote:I doubt these amateur entrepreneurs will disappear from the USSA, at least, not if the Communist government wants to avoid another revolution with the specific goal of overthrowing it.
Oh, handcraft, bakery, etc. were all present in the USSR as well. They are individual people, with no hired workers, it's quite probable they would be allowed to work. After all, the USSA would not pursue industrialization at the expense of the farmer/worker for industrialization has already happened, to a greater extent than in most places.
Sidewinder wrote:US intervention has always been for American interests.
It is in the interests of America to have friendly, ideologically close governments at least in the Americas. And that's the very least how the USSA could benefit. Is the fate of USSR important to the USSA?

You bet. The USSA might not go to any European war, but it would be able to sell, ship weapons, etc. etc. - like during World War II, to it's allies who are under attack. For example, USSR. Is the USSA interested in Soviet power spreading in Europe and creating nations which are by default friendly to the USSA, open their markets, resources to them? Yes. How would a communist government achieve this? Turn them communist.

The USSA would at the very least make South America look like Fidel Castro's good dream and help the USSR by some sort of lend-lease if not direct assistance, in World War II.

Enemy combatants may include British Empire, Japanese Empire and German Reich. I do not know if the German Reich manages to supress the communist revolution from inside, though, since they were very close to that in 1918, and by 1918, both Russia and USA are communist, lending far more credibility to the revolutioners.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Aranfan » 2008-11-30 09:24pm

Stas Bush wrote: Enemy combatants may include British Empire, Japanese Empire and German Reich. I do not know if the German Reich manages to supress the communist revolution from inside, though, since they were very close to that in 1918, and by 1918, both Russia and USA are communist, lending far more credibility to the revolutioners.
Umm, OP puts USA becoming Communist at the 1936 presidential election. Not 1918.

Stormbringer wrote:
Aranfan wrote:Also, the next Comintern is going to be interesting. The power dynamic just changed and Stalin isn't the biggest fish in the pond anymore. The American Communists at the Comintern aren't some upstarts from overseas anymore, they are now the representatives of the most powerful economy on the planet.
Again, that depends on the US being significantly more interested in foreign affairs than it was. I'm not at all certain this hypothetical US government would want to become leaders of world communism.

Why wouldn't the USSA join the Comintern? I thought the CPUSA was already a member? And Communist America could justify economic intervention in the Spanish Civil War as supporting American Volunteers.

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Samuel » 2008-11-30 09:34pm

Umm, OP puts USA becoming Communist at the 1936 presidential election. Not 1918.
He is confusing it with the USSA short story series where the positions of the US and Russia are flipped. Good story telling, lousy history.
Please don't make the same mistake that certain US government leaders (cough! George W. Bush! Lyndon B. Johnson! Woodrow Wilson! cough!) made, i.e., believe bullshit that the US intervenes in other nations for their benefit, because the American ideals of freedom and democracy are too good not to share.

US intervention has always been for American interests. If the US becomes a Communist state, it will not become a force for Communism, it will remain a force for American interests. If the Communist government loses sight of this and ends up believing its own propaganda, it'll become as hated as the George W. Bush and the Republicans during the 2008 elections, and share their fate, i.e., lose power.
The Soviet Union was a force for Russian interests and they spread communism- it was part of Russian interests. It was an ideological goal, they needed to protect themselves and grab resources.
This will require a non-aggression pact between the USSR and USSA, to avoid fuckups like the UK and France getting sucked (and suckered) into a war for the sake of Serbia, whose fate, realistically speaking, had zero effect upon either power until the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990s.
Which seems very likely to happen (them signing a pact).

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Sidewinder » 2008-11-30 10:03pm

Stas Bush wrote:Is the USSA interested in Soviet power spreading in Europe and creating nations which are by default friendly to the USSA, open their markets, resources to them? Yes. How would a communist government achieve this? Turn them communist.
Government leaders with working brains don't give a damn about a foreign government leader's ideology as long as the foreign leader does not act against their nations' interests. The US supported Communist partisans in WWII because the Nazis were a direct threat to American interests. After the war, those partisans established puppet governments under Stalin's control, and Stalin began trying to spread Communism to areas the US believed were within America's sphere of influence (see South Korea), which made Communists a threat to American interests. The US decided to support downright Fascist governments (Spain under Francisco Franco, Chile under Augusto Pinochet) to "contain" Communism.

I doubt a USSA would act differently, at least, a USSA whose government leaders have working brains. As for the Communist governments you think would take power in Europe, their leaders would likely do what leaders like Ho Chi Minh and Kim Il-Sung did in our world: play the Commie superpowers against each other for their own nations' benefit, like offer the use of military bases to the superpower that provides more financial aid.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by TC Pilot » 2008-11-30 10:17pm

Sidewinder wrote:I doubt a USSA would act differently, at least, a USSA whose government leaders have working brains.
It is certainly not true that ideology did not represent a substantial factor. In many cases, communist or socialist politicians or power-holders sympathetic to the United States (Ho Chi Mihn, Japanese communists) were flatly rejected, much to the tangible detriment of American interests. Rather, there was a perception in the United States that communism by virtue of being communist was detrimental to American interests, whereas idealogically rightist individuals and governments (former Nazis, imperial Japanese, Iranian shahs, Latin American military juntas) were not. The same is applicable, in reverse, to the Soviet Union.

With both nations communist, or communist-sympathetic, there would be no confrontation on ideological grounds. The two might quarrel over world leadership, as was the case between the PRC and USSR, but that is a fundamentally different issue than in reality.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by K. A. Pital » 2008-11-30 10:42pm

Sidewinder wrote:Government leaders with working brains don't give a damn about a foreign government leader's ideology as long as the foreign leader does not act against their nations' interests.
I believe it's in the interests of a putative communist-led America to at least wipe out the overtly fascist regimes from Europe (Reich, Italy, Spain, Portugal) and destroy the British Empire which has been seen as some sort of "evils of capitalism manifest" by most socialist nations.

Yeah, post-war they may quarrel with the USSR, but really, that's a far cry from the Cold War.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by Sidewinder » 2008-12-01 12:08am

Stas Bush wrote:I believe it's in the interests of a putative communist-led America to at least wipe out the overtly fascist regimes from Europe (Reich, Italy, Spain, Portugal) and destroy the British Empire which has been seen as some sort of "evils of capitalism manifest" by most socialist nations.
Again, you're assuming Communist solidarity will overrule each government's interests. Being Communist is no guarantee this nation will become another Communist nation's ally, as you noted in other threads with the Sino-Soviet Split and proxy wars between the two nations, e.g., between Cambodia and Vietnam.

Will a Communist-led US attempt to wipe out Fascist regimes from Europe? That depends on American interests, not on how right or left those nations' governments are. Stalin was willing to make deals with Hitler for his (the Soviet Union's) benefit; I'm certain the USSA government leader will do the same, even provide overt support for the Fascists if he/she thinks it's for America's benefit.

If you're curious how such a situation may occur, suppose Oregon boundary dispute is reignited for some stupid reason, and the Canadian military mobilizes along the USSA-Canada border. Berlin approaches Washington, DC with this deal: the Germans will blockade the UK and prevent British reinforcements from reaching Canada, making it easier for the US military to crush Canada's and conquer the "Canadian Corridor" between the States of Washington and Alaska. In exchange, the German Fascists want the American Commies to support their attempt to conquer Normandy. Will Washington, DC make a deal? Of course! The Brits have presented themselves as a threat to American interests, and the Germans are offering to reduce this threat. The fact that Fascists are the sworn enemies of Commies is irrelevent to the situation, as long as German and American interests are in alignment.
Yeah, post-war they may quarrel with the USSR, but really, that's a far cry from the Cold War.
Again, that depends on the American and Soviet (Russian) interests, and how severe are the conflicts.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by K. A. Pital » 2008-12-01 12:22am

To be fair, the British Empire is not too far a cry from the fascists (not the Nazis, but the "run of the mill" fascists), especially in it's colonial policy.

Of course, aligning with Germany vs. British Empire is possible, as is the reverse. However, I find it truly hard to imagine a conflict between USSR and USSA in the 1930 or 1940s - both nations are fairly isolationist, have conflicts to deal with and a common enemy. The USSR is unlikely to enroach upon Canada, Mexico or other US-vital zones, while the USA is unlikely to enroach into Eastern Europe - it's just too remote for an already isolationist nation. And Western Europe is full of US and Soviet adversaries like British Empire and German Empire, both of which remain capitalist, if not fascist, and antagonistic vs. the communist powers.

If anything, the USSA will take the USSR's help to deal with Britain or Germany. After all, if there is no World War II and Soviet industrialization is proceeding faster than IRL, the USSR will be able to help the US Navy in a possible US-British or US-German conflict with rather powerful naval vessels.
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by thejester » 2008-12-01 02:15am

Stas Bush wrote:To be fair, the British Empire is not too far a cry from the fascists (not the Nazis, but the "run of the mill" fascists), especially in it's colonial policy.
Huh?
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Re: What if: Communist America

Post by K. A. Pital » 2008-12-01 02:38am

thejester wrote:Huh?
Huge man-induced famines, repression massacres in the colonies? Check. Militarism and expansionism? Check. Colonial exploit of both resources and manpower? Check. Nothing compared to Nazi Germany, of course, or the Kongo free state, but still pretty brutal policies.
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