NecronLord wrote:
Even on Hydraphur, there's no indication that the arbities are able to outright take over the planet if the governor goes rogue. While there might be some areas where they're particularly capable (Vogen had a huge precinct house, IIRC) on most worlds, they're a first line of counter-insurrection. They're not able to just take over.
By themselves? You're right, they don't have enough forces to do it. But the Arbites have their own naval assets in a sector they can call upon, and their also allowed to call upon the army and navy arms to supplement themselves, and there's no guarnatee that PDF and Guard garrisons (if any in the case of the latter) or space forces will automatically side with a planetary governor in revolt (or that the people will, per se.) And other factions aren't likely to back down either (The ministorum? I doubt it. And I doubt the AdMech would want SW tech proliferating beyond their control either.) Which brings us back to "it depends on the world in question." I dont see the Empire, say, triggerin ga revolt in Hydraphur or Bakka or Armageddon or Necromunda, for example.
Most sectors seem to contain a few hundred systems at most. Let's assume there's merely a thousand sectors; each with some fifty to seventy warships... that's substantially more than there are space marines.
I'd say at least 5,000 (200 systems average with 1 million planets) though likely more towards 10-20K in my estimation (at a bare minimum.)
I wouldn't bet on outright Inquisition warships being that numerous. Recall Excecution Hour, where it's a big mystery when a suspected Inquisition warship turns up... I suppose there might be such a number of Black Ships, though.
I would. There's got to be what. Thousands of Inquisitors of senior or substantial standing at least (enough to head a sector), and I'd bet each of them could comandeer or own a cruiser scale vessel or greater. Hell, I bet they'd have a number of unattached warships at a sector base for Inquisitorial usage (the same way they maintain storm troopers, vehicles, and whatnot.) - vehicles which may include the "black ships" mentioned in BFG (the battlecruiser types) as well as ships seconded (more or less permanantly) to the Inquisition's use. I could see that going into the tens of thousands, easily, especially if you included the psyker-capturing Black Ships.
Why? They have longer weapons ranges too. They can move to engage, or they can get the planet they're guarding peppered from beyond their range. Neither are particularly good options, but there aren't any good options for the Imperium in this scenario.
The empire can bombard from a distance, but they can't invade. And bombardment at range is bound to be fairly indiscriminate unless you have fairly precise targeting data (eg Hoth), which means that its main value will only be if they intend to flatten the place (basically.) and that isn't even counting hte kind of firepower needed to take out defenses or planetary facilities at range.
And at best you get "light minute" ranges for that - multi AU bombardment ranges are the purview of specially modified weapons, I might add. A further problem with this tactic is that we dont know the exact correlation between range and firepower - that is, can you bombard any target from any range with any yield, or do you need a certain minimum yield to exploit ranges. Remembe rthe 10 LM range is against WARSHIPS (supposedly) which implies you need very high-yield outputs.
I will further submit that even in the SW universe "bombardment from long range" is not frequently used, which indeed suggests there are certain requirements or limitations - most planetary assaults are from fairly close range (The longest I can recall is maybe hundreds of thousands of km away, the bombardemnts in the Thrawn Trilogy, where they assaulted Coruscant and Bphassfh from beyond lunar orbits.) Hell, even millions of km away is not neccearily beyond the effective range of 40K weapons (depending on the weapon, of course.)
In the end, yes, its an option, but its only bound to be significant if they don't care about obliterating the planet (though I can see them taking out certain planets to weaken others, so yeah, there's not much they can neccesarily do there. Although bombarding some worlds, ie Forge or Hive Worlds, probably would do fuck-all at range.)
As an aside, I would note there are times when SW cannot just "hyper in" and hpyer out - microjumps require prescision knowledge, and that can require sweeping a system (cf: Tyrant's Test, when 3 ships of the NRDF swept a system looking for Yevetha shipyards, rather than just hang out on the edge of the system and scan randomly. Hell in TESB they swept systems even when using probe droids and they were just looking for the Falcon!)
I question this. They fielded some smaller warships, yes. But crap? Not to my knowledge. Lucrehulk battleship conversions spring to mind as being rather formidable.
Relative to what? As a battleship they still suck. Weapons coverage isn't ideal (unlike the wedge shape) and only the sheer number of guns compensates for this. And we dont know how they really compare up firepower wise save from conjecture. If we extrapolate from most Separatist vessels they probably suck (remember Venators outgunned Separtatist REcusants nad Municifents by a significant margin, Separatist ships had little armor and fragile constructions, and crappy armaments unless you counted projectile/warhead ordnance.) Hell, if we look at what the Rebels threw against the Empire, they still didn't quite match up. The Lucrehulks are maybe the best of the bunch (save the Malevolence) but they still suck compared to dedicated warships of comparable class.
I'd think a hundred thousand ships in addition to normal garrison duties would be rather impressive. Though of course, that assumes they're not even building more shipyards and such.
I doubt it. Shipbuilding is largely a commercial activity in Star Wars, and I doubt they want the Navy itself glutting the market any more than they have to. In alot of ways I tend to see the "under militarization" of Star Wars as paralelling the US (you're the largest power, you don't really have any fears of major invasion from anyone around you, and if you are attacked your industrial machine can be - hopefully - brought to bear quickly, so why bother?) - larrge militiaries are both a danger and a needless cost, and Palpy didn't enlist the aid of trusting people to begin with.
So yeah, impressive.. but I dont think its going to exactly swamp the Imperium in short order - we know they have the capacity, but as I said before, they clearly don't use it, even when they have good reasons to. (The Rebellion vs Empire and vice versa, the Vong, the REpublic vs the CIS, etc.)
Indeed. I don't think it's possible to know. I suppose we could say it seriously impairs navigation, and that a serious effort to chart the hostile galaxy would have to be made...
I'd say it just forces them to be more cautious until they've more firmly established themselves in the 40K galaxy (at least temporary comm networks, charts, and whatnot.) It wouldn't last forever (A decade would probably be optimistic int he extreme) but it would be a short term liability. And yes, SW would still probably have some sort of potential advantage, it would just be alot less extreme/flexible. Hyperdrive can be dangerous to the user too if used carelessly (dropping 3 ISDS onto the Executor's shields comes to mind.)
Was this the one that broke into two and hurled down to the planet?
More or less. But even as an extreme example, its not going to be off by MANY orders of magnitude. Even if your standard Imperial vessels of equivalent tonnage were 100x less durable as a rule, its still alot better durability wise than SW, near as I can tell. (And as I recall, they were facing multiple vessels.. several escorts, a battlecruiser-scale ship, and so on.)
Mind you, I seem to recall that there was some suggestion of a very long battle of Coruscant too.
So do I, but its too vague to be useful. Yes, they had to cover the distance from the Rim to the Core quickly, which suggests hours, but from all accounts it was a HUGE battle with thousands of ships, scattered all throughout the system, and extending onto the ground. And as you pointed out for 40K, we dont know how much of that would include manuvering, pauses for repairs and whatnot, so on and so forth (especially since, as you said, they tend to engage at much closer ranges.) Moreover, we dont know the duration of individual engagements - for all we know that despite it lasting hours, both sides suffered tremendous losses. On top of that, ,you can't power weapons and engines at max power together, which has implications for firepower/durability in any diff ways (manuvering means reduced firepower, which means reduced durability for the duration, and this assumes you can INSTANTLY transfer power from one system to another safely..)
I would point to the Invisible Hand vs Venator as a likely example of probable combat durations, though, if we WERE looking for examples (it was largely undamaged, and still had some shields as well, if I remember the novel correctly.)
I'd view those, and the TV shows, as the most important sources. Pictures tell a thousand words, after all.
They have to move to engage at point blank ranges, or to move to engage a new target, or bring their guns to bear (remember the crappy arcs on the haevy guns?) or for any number of reasons. I would also add, as per above, the power transfer issue is a big hamper in the SW side - we dont know how long it takes to transfer power from major systems (weapons to engines, for example) but its unlikely to be instantaneous. And hyperdrive is another heavy-draw system.
I'll see those examples, and raise you the current Clone Wars series. There's some long range examples in Star Wars. And some spitting distance ones.
So? That just goes to show you that there are alot of factors influencing range, and its alot more complicated. Hell, accuracy is a big factor in weapons range, and that alone is a messy issue to analyze! There's also shield durability vs weapons penetration at a given range (There's evidence that is a consideration.), use of other systems (IE tractor beams). A big one is going to be hyperdrive - how close you can emerge out from the planet (or other target) will dictate weapons range, and as I already said, alot of factors can incluencee that. Hell, I know of examples of high speed "passes" in Star Wars (the wEG materials mentioned combat occuring at "thousands of km/s" and of course we have Star by Star and Destiny's Way for corroborating examples.)
the same can be said for 40K - alot of factors influence effective ranges and combat can vary according to circumstnaces. Target velocity for one, which is why I don't neccesariyl consider all 40K combat to occur at relatavistic speeds (even though its possible or reasonable for such an occurance to happen.) Likewise they can do manuver battles. Or they can just sit and pound away at each other. Just like Star Wars.
Are those last two not explicitly 'worlds that exist' rather than 'worlds that the imperium controls'?
Dark Hersy says that the "Imperium is vast" and "among its billions of inhabited worlds". The one saving grace I note there, because I personally DO consider billions excessive, is that it probably includes tiny research stations or outposts/facilities (like the Tyran base the Tyranids overwhelemd) as well as big hives or Forge worlds.) Relentless mentions "a billion worlds" that each have been visited (or claimed to have been visited) by the Emperor, which indicates they ought to be known (and therefore part of the Imperium, even if rarely visited.)
That's why I tend to believe that the "significantly" populated worlds are quite a bit less (millions or tens of millions). the "billion worlds" can be fudged somewhat to fit with this example too ("billion" can fall in the higher scale of "millions of worlds" if you assume some exaggeration.)
I'm not sure what you're saying here. I don't think it's possible to say at what point a world is counted. As a guess, I'd suggest that when the Administratum appoints an 'Imperial Commander' for the planet. Other than that, they'd be dependancies, answering to some member world. I know of no information that could quantify how many such settlements there are.
What I was getting at is that, if you want to use an analogy. The "million worlds" of the Imperium are undre direct authority of the Imperium itself. They're probably the oldest, most loyal worlds, perhaps the foremost in the Imperium. the "member states" if you will. The rest are largely the allied worlds (worlds either ruled by or allied with the AStartes, the AdMech's territories, so on and so forth.) and protectorates (those who pay fealty to the Imperium, give tithes in return for protection, etc.) and colonies (worlds conquered by the Astartes, by retired Guardsmen, Rogue Traders, etc.)
Thus its in the same vein as the "million worlds" of the Empire being the member states, while still having millions/tens of millions (or billions) of "other" worlds despite the apparent contradiciton.
But like I said, if you dislike that interpretation then I suggest we stick to the "million world" interpretations for both the Empire and Imperium as "most canonical", because you can't really argue for one (the Empire over the Imperium) without being hypocritical about it.
Precisely. Thus, SW has a higher population.
How so? I just got done explaining the problems with Chommell, and we dont really know enough about population averages to make a guess. At best, you could say they're comparable (million worlds with billions each, about the same assumption you could make for the Imperium. We don't know how many "coruscant-like" worlds there are after all, and their actual populations are largely conjecture anyhow.) I would further submit that even if SW had higher populations, that number is somewhat misleading. In the Empire, they tended to utilize the nonhuman races alot less, especially militarily. There's something like 20 million races as I recall, and even if we assumed quintillions of people in the SW galaxy (quite possible) and that humanity was 1000x more numerous than everyone else, the human population total would come out to the trillions (maybe low quadrillions at best.) And you couldn't count on a large percentage of that being "military worthy" due to age, genderand whatnot. And you'd also need numbers for the "supply/support" side of the military machine (industry, transportation, services, etc.) And you also have to factor in the "less military" mindset of the SW galaxy- I dont remember Palpy forcibly conscripting people into the armies, after all (he had to use considerable guile to get recruits in fact.)
There is of course cloning, but that has its own constraints, even with Spaarti methods (you need at LEAST a year to grow a stable clone. Emphasis on "least" as the complexity of the clone apparently affects growing time.)
Indeed. Still beats out warp drive, though.
Yes, but only in certain regards, not all around. At least not immediately. As they gathered more and more accurate information then yes, their advantages become more pronounced. I fully admit that in a "long term" (IE less than a decade) SW would crush 40K even without resorting to "all out" tactics (like droid armies/navies) simply by virtue of industry and FTL - it can literally out-attrition the Imperium.
A million? Really? A few hundred thousand C is the highest I've seen.
Depends on sources and quotes. I wouldn't call it a "likely" speed of course. The most immediate eaxmple was Adeptus Titanicus, which was "hundreds or thousands of light years in a few hours". Its not an impossible speed to achieve, but as I said the nature of the Warp is highly unpredictable, both because of its currents and extenral supernatural influcnes (Daemonic or Emperor-based assistance, for example) but also because the Warp mucks around with time something fiere. You could probably argue for "instantaneous" travel times if circumstnaces were right (don't the Eldar achieve that) but I wouldn't count on it in a battle.
As a rule I tend to go with "tens to hundreds of thousands of c" since most of my calcs pointed to those. Say a few hundred thousand c being "good" speed. Still slower than the Empire, but not drastically so in the short term. Besides which, if Chaos is down for the count, its quite possible the Emperor could do more for navigation now that his attnetion isn't divided, so its not unrealistic to assume higher speeds could be achieved if they needed to be.
As mentioned, Palpatine was quite willing to use World Devastators. And yes, while they're the nuke-analogue, I have a hard time imagining the nukes not coming out for an invasion of another galaxy full of baffling alien gribblies and giant space cathedrals.
Palpatine is/was as of Dark Empire, an insane Dracula wannabe. Not the most ideal case. Besides, its a known fact Palpy loves to have "threats" that are imaginary or real (his cultivation of the Separatist menace, his refusal to crush out the Rebellion immediately) because it facililates his staying in power. Its quite likely he'd view the Imperium in the same vein, so why bother rushing to crush them so quickly? And his economic/military interests would likely want to prolong the war as well for similar reasons (more money to earn funding and supplying a war/building ships, supplying troops, etc.) Things would have to be either really dire (or Palpy would have to be very clever) in pulling this off, since as I mentioned all evidence indicates a tremendous psychological taboo against these sorts of tactics no matter HOW Ruthless Palpy is (after all, he never turned them on his own galaxy, and the REbels certainly never did.) But if the Imperium is as minor a threat as claimed, ,then they would have no reason to do so would they?
Besides which, its not as if the Imperium can't WMD the Empire's ass either (Soft or Hard exterminatus). And I'm really trying to avoid dragging out the "GEOM" card here, because I really dont believe he'd sit still for things either (although I tend to believe he wouldn't act directly unless the situation is dire. There's tons he can do in the logistics/coordination standpoint that would help since he's in charge of the Astronomican and the astropath network basically.) and I just see WMD spamming of any kind as a sort of MAD.
And if we're going to play the "both sides fight intelligently as possible" card, then why wouldn't the AdMech start pulling out the stops. They have been known to discover "miracles" of technology or suddenly unleash new abilities when a significant threat emerges (local or otherwise.) The Gothic war is the largest example to come to mind immediately (refititng or upgrading ships to greater capability because of Abbadon's atack.) but lesser examples (cain's Last Stand, Dark Apostle, etc.) come to mind too. And the "religious" nonsense that keeps the Imperium from sometimes using its tech more intelligently is not any different from whatever keeps SW from doing the same with its tech (and Ic an think of a great many examples in addition to the automated construction spam that aren't ever used despite the fact its easily capable.) Again I feel its rather hypocritical to allow one side that advantage but not the other, so we either allow it or we just disregard it.
Besides which, this also tends to venture dangerously into the territory of speculation as in "we never see it used but it could in theory be used" sort of in the same vein (if better substantiated) that trekkies use (IE warp strafing.)
It is an unfortunate 40K meme that things like ships, titans, etcetera are constantly being called 'lost' or 'only produced in small numbers' and such. You're quite aware of it yourself, mind you. But this constrasts quite sharply with the Empire, which is always coming up with some brand spanking new death machine.
Yes, but this is offset by the fact that they seem to have emulated the United States Military Industrial Complex model.
I believe the BFC books mentioned that the only way out of hyperspace was with a hyperdrive. Presumably that's just not economical unless you're firing a really big missile, like the ones the Galaxy Gun used.
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Technically all you'd need to do is either load up a hyperdrive capable ship with explosives (all you really need is the guidance system engines and explosives.) or just stick a hyperdrive on some large impactor (say a moon - think the 3 ISDs crashing into the Executor writ large) Ignoring for a second how this would influence ship to ship combat, think of the military potential in attacking fixed targets (IE planets.) Hell, think of the potential terrorists havef or such a weapon (Hyperdrives are very plentiful after all, as are asteroids and moons)
Hell such capability pretty much would render the need for ship to ship combat kinda pointless, ,dont you think?
Yet, they never use it that way,.save a single superweapon or accident/sabotage (agin the 3 ISDs ramming the Exec, or the Eclipse ramming the Galaxy gun in Empire's End.)
