No Movie For Old Elfdart

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Sriad
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Post by Sriad »

Darth Wong wrote: What a load of horseshit. People in trailer parks move more readily than people with real homes, and it creates less of a stir when they do so. What the fuck makes you think some guy living in a shithole trailer park has to spend a lot of time doing logistics planning for a real move? Or that it would create a big stir when he does? All he has to say is "I'm sick of this dump, I'm gonna go east."

And the idea that he would have gotten inevitably tracked down is bullshit too; the transmitter doesn't have a very long range, and a random search would take forever. And who the hell wouldn't move the money out of the case and into a nondescript duffel bag right away? Even if he doesn't know about the transmitter, anyone with half a brain would say to himself: "Shit, I don't want someone seeing this case and recognizing it".

Once more: the story relies upon epic idiocy.
What the movie relies on (that is to say, what it's ABOUT) is people whose actionable moral systems are profoundly out of sync with their situation.

It is a black comedy/thriller about doing the wrong thing for reasons which myopically seem reasonable.

Sheriff Ed Tom Bell:
A law enforcement man who thinks that he is a relic of better times. His methods depend on criminals who are dumb, or don't indiscriminately kill to cover their tracks, or people who respect the law enough to call it in when they stumble across a mass-murder scene. He is personally determined to halt the unfolding crime-spree and takes it as a personal failure when he is late to the scene every time. His uncle calls him on his unrealistic expectations and reminds him Texas has never been peaceful, but Bell still retires ignominiously, convinced the world has degenerated beyond his ability to redeem it, instead of just changing like it always does.

Moss:
Investigates a mass-murder scene personally because he is a Rugged Individualist. Refuses water to a gut-shot dying man because he's almost certainly scum, as proven by his presence at the crime scene Moss is investigating; Cowboy Justice. Returns to the scene because refusing a dying man's wish for water is a shitty thing to do; even death rowers get a last meal. Turns out that was a bad idea.
Now that the drug runners have his scent, he believes that confrontation is inevitable, and that he will see it through as a Rugged Individualist. In a confrontation with Chigurh, Moss takes near-mortal wounds and flees into Mexico where he refuses one offer to give up the money and walk away, and another to give up the money, still die, but spare his wife. Because he is a Cowboy (or maybe just remembers the Alamo, at this point) he still refuses, calls Bell for help at last, and still dies, having tried to bring The Law on board rather late in the day.

Chigurh:
Well, for starters, he's a sociopathic murderer. But even among murderers he's out of sync. He believes he is an agent of impersonal fate, and lets random whims or coin tosses decide people's lives. He kills many co-workers who come between him and Moss because he is the "one right tool" to do the job.

The theme is driven home in the ending. Chigurh is in bad shape after killing Moss' wife, having sustained a compound fracture in a random accident and an onlooking kid sells him the shirt off his back to use as a splint because a hundred bucks for a shirt is a great deal; consequently the mass murderer walks away before emergency services arrive.

It is obvious to any viewer with even a sliver of intelligence that the things these people are doing are Perversely Wrong. For one willing to entertain the possibility that the characters' actions are developmental from their initial conditions, NCFOM is an austere dark gem. Or one might axiomatically reject the premises of the movie one by one, because everyone knows that if you want clear-headed thinking in a crisis, you drive to the nearest trailer park and ask a lower-class veteran Cowboy with delusions of badassness.

One might also argue that Hamlet should have listened to the ghost and stabbed his Uncle in Act 1 Scene 2, and that nubile young teens should always pack heat when they go camping. Technically correct, but missing the point.
...Your attempts to defend that idiocy as being logical decision-making in context are nothing more than fanboyism. The real problem is that you watched the film, you were too uncritical to pick up on how fucking stupid he was, and when other people pointed out what an incredible imbecile he was, you felt compelled to defend him because you didn't pick up on it yourself.
:roll: Ascribing motives to your opposition is a fairly primitive rhetorical gambit, especially when the topic is one as subjectively unstable as art appreciation.

I might reciprocate by speculating that your uncharacteristic anti-intellectual populism in consistently attacking "high art" is a subconscious outlet to pander to the troglodytes so frequently alienated by your ruthlessly scientific manner, compounded in this case by an inability to entertain the existence of lethal logically unwieldy moral systems in fictional realms in blind defiance of their plenitude in reality. Fortunately I'm too classy for that sort of thing.

...and don't even HONESTLY believe a word of it; I also hope that you don't really think I'm so dense that I regularly sit through movies thinking that their flawed characters are really paragons of whatever trait they lack. Low blows aside, it was a mistake to present Moss' options in what seemed a logical fashion, (though you'll find I used that word 0 times in previous posts, and "stupid" or synonyms quite a lot), they were "logical" only in the context of his suicidally self-reliant beliefs.
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Post by Sriad »

Darth Wong wrote:What a load of horseshit. People in trailer parks move more readily than people with real homes, and it creates less of a stir when they do so. What the fuck makes you think some guy living in a shithole trailer park has to spend a lot of time doing logistics planning for a real move? Or that it would create a big stir when he does? All he has to say is "I'm sick of this dump, I'm gonna go east."
Lest I be accused of abandoning my previous position: moving takes a lot of effort whatever financial level you're in, unless your position is defined by moving a lot. (ie, hobo or jet-set multimillionaire) "Mobile Homes" are designed to be mobile exactly once in their lifetime.

At a MINIMUM Moss is looking at several thousand dollars in opportunity costs, transportation, temporary housing, securing long term housing, and replacing lost property. Even lampshading it by saying "I've been sick of y'all for a long time, been saving pennies" is going to be remembered. We don't have any data on Chigurh's ability to find or follow Moss before his primary error, but the criminals' ability to follow and find after Moss ditches the homing beacon suggests it is not unreasonable.

Not that the movie ever followed this road, for the reasons I mentioned just now.
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Post by Eulogy »

Sriad wrote:Lest I be accused of abandoning my previous position: moving takes a lot of effort whatever financial level you're in, unless your position is defined by moving a lot. (ie, hobo or jet-set multimillionaire) "Mobile Homes" are designed to be mobile exactly once in their lifetime.

At a MINIMUM Moss is looking at several thousand dollars in opportunity costs, transportation, temporary housing, securing long term housing, and replacing lost property. Even lampshading it by saying "I've been sick of y'all for a long time, been saving pennies" is going to be remembered. We don't have any data on Chigurh's ability to find or follow Moss before his primary error, but the criminals' ability to follow and find after Moss ditches the homing beacon suggests it is not unreasonable.

Not that the movie ever followed this road, for the reasons I mentioned just now.
You're seriously arguing that Moss will actually care about dumping a few grand on moving, if even that, when he has just found a fuckton of money. :lol:

And how exactly is Chigurh gonig to find an actually smart Moss, again? For all you know, he finds the empty case at the bottom of the lake, the trail long cold (and the mark retired with his wife in a half-decent house several states away). What's he gonna do, put a want-ad in the paper for a distinct case that contains lots of moolah? Go to the police station? Ask around town if anyone has started acting odd or suddenly disappeared? Flash a huge signal in the night like in Batman, hoping against all logic that his mark magically comes along? Hijack a radio station and say pretty please?

Fact is, drug lords aren't fucking forensic investigators. In order to trail Moss they needed a lead, and Moss was stupid enough to give them one instead of skipping town and living in relative luxury for the rest of his life.
Sriad wrote:...and don't even HONESTLY believe a word of it; I also hope that you don't really think I'm so dense that I regularly sit through movies thinking that their flawed characters are really paragons of whatever trait they lack.
It's not that the characters were flawed, it's that Moss is so fucking stupid that he completely destroyed any suspension of disbelief and made intelligent viewers hate him. Can you honestly blame them?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Sriad wrote:What the movie relies on (that is to say, what it's ABOUT) is people whose actionable moral systems are profoundly out of sync with their situation.

It is a black comedy/thriller about doing the wrong thing for reasons which myopically seem reasonable.
How the fuck is that relevant to my comment that the characters are so goddamned stupid that I can't take them seriously, or the film which describes them? You're just changing the subject from stupidity to morality.
...Your attempts to defend that idiocy as being logical decision-making in context are nothing more than fanboyism. The real problem is that you watched the film, you were too uncritical to pick up on how fucking stupid he was, and when other people pointed out what an incredible imbecile he was, you felt compelled to defend him because you didn't pick up on it yourself.
:roll: Ascribing motives to your opposition is a fairly primitive rhetorical gambit, especially when the topic is one as subjectively unstable as art appreciation.
Except that I'm not trying to refute your argument with this speculation, fucktard. I refuted it by showing that you're full of shit. Your argument about how a move out of a shithole trailer park would require major logistical planning is utterly specious at best and downright idiotic or dishonest at worst. Your argument about how the film is about moral subjective frames of reference is a complete red-herring to my argument about how the characters are too fucking stupid to take seriously. All you have is rhetoric.

If your motive is not a desire to defend idiocy, then why are you defending their idiocy? Why do you make these ridiculous arguments about how difficult it would be for a man to come up with enough money to relocate after he just found $2 million in a goddamned suitcase? Why don't you explain your motives for defending such stupidity? Either you have some motive, or you are actually such a raving imbecile that you think these arguments make sense. So instead of whining about "low blows", why don't you realize that I was actually giving your intellect the fucking benefit of the doubt by assuming you had some unspoken motive?
I might reciprocate by speculating that your uncharacteristic anti-intellectual populism in consistently attacking "high art" is a subconscious outlet to pander to the troglodytes so frequently alienated by your ruthlessly scientific manner, compounded in this case by an inability to entertain the existence of lethal logically unwieldy moral systems in fictional realms in blind defiance of their plenitude in reality. Fortunately I'm too classy for that sort of thing.
I'll bet you patted yourself on the back for that little bit of self-consciously erudite nose-in-the-air posturing, didn't you? Too bad it doesn't save your moronic argument, or excuse your laughable failure to pick up on the dumbest characters in cinema this side of Yosemite Sam.
...and don't even HONESTLY believe a word of it; I also hope that you don't really think I'm so dense that I regularly sit through movies thinking that their flawed characters are really paragons of whatever trait they lack. Low blows aside, it was a mistake to present Moss' options in what seemed a logical fashion, (though you'll find I used that word 0 times in previous posts, and "stupid" or synonyms quite a lot), they were "logical" only in the context of his suicidally self-reliant beliefs.
What part of "the characters were stupid" do you not understand, moron? What makes you think you can refute accusations of their epic stupidity by rambling at length about moral choices? That's not even vaguely relevant, for fuck's sake.
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Re: No Movie For Old Elfdart

Post by MKSheppard »

Elfdart wrote:The movie is seven or eight kinds of stupid
PRAISE ELFDART!

I posted essentially the same thing a while ago; and got dogpiled for it.

Everyone was so fucking stupid in that movie.

EDIT: What I liked was how Anton went around causing all kinds of contaminated crime scenes; yet the police never dusted for prints or faxed the prints back to the FBI in DC for followup.
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Re: No Movie For Old Elfdart

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

MKSheppard wrote:
Elfdart wrote:The movie is seven or eight kinds of stupid
PRAISE ELFDART!

I posted essentially the same thing a while ago; and got dogpiled for it.

Everyone was so fucking stupid in that movie.

EDIT: What I liked was how Anton went around causing all kinds of contaminated crime scenes; yet the police never dusted for prints or faxed the prints back to the FBI in DC for followup.
"We small town policemen don't like the feds. They are pushy, and they are a whole lot of pussies"?
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Re: No Movie For Old Elfdart

Post by MKSheppard »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:"We small town policemen don't like the feds. They are pushy, and they are a whole lot of pussies"?
Please. There's a whole lot world of difference between calling in FBI agents to help you; and sending photos/faxes of the fingerprints you've recovered at the crime scenes (Anton was very messy) to the Feds to run through their huuuuge database.
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Post by Deathstalker »

The movie and the book were set in the very early '80s and don't believe a national fingerprint database had been established yet. However, prints could have been sent and compared to prints found at similar crime scenes. The impression I got from the book was that Anton prints weren't on file anywhere anyway, and would only be good if he was caught and used to place him at the scene of a crime.
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Post by Sidewinder »

Deathstalker wrote:The movie and the book were set in the very early '80s and don't believe a national fingerprint database had been established yet. However, prints could have been sent and compared to prints found at similar crime scenes. The impression I got from the book was that Anton prints weren't on file anywhere anyway, and would only be good if he was caught and used to place him at the scene of a crime.
Nonetheless, one law enforcement agency's failure to share info with another one is a MAJOR sign of incompetence, unless this is an intentional effort to fuckup an investigation on police corruption, police brutality, or tampering of evidence. Then it becomes a MAJOR sign of corruption.

Well, which is it? Is the sheriff's failure to ask the FBI to check if they have Anton's fingerprints on file an act of incompetence, or corruption?
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Post by Sriad »

Darth Wong wrote:
Sriad wrote:What the movie relies on (that is to say, what it's ABOUT) is people whose actionable moral systems are profoundly out of sync with their situation.

It is a black comedy/thriller about doing the wrong thing for reasons which myopically seem reasonable.
How the fuck is that relevant to my comment that the characters are so goddamned stupid that I can't take them seriously, or the film which describes them? You're just changing the subject from stupidity to morality.
I'm saying: their stupidity is a product of their morality.

If your threshold of character stupidity is low enough that you don't enjoy the movie, that's fine. I'm just trying to elucidate my position that their morality-induced-stupidity is a deliberate aspect of the film that the Coen brothers made, not a flaw in some Ed Wood style comedy of errors.
[...]Your argument about how the film is about moral subjective frames of reference is a complete red-herring to my argument about how the characters are too fucking stupid to take seriously. All you have is rhetoric.

If your motive is not a desire to defend idiocy, then why are you defending their idiocy? Why do you make these ridiculous arguments about how difficult it would be for a man to come up with enough money to relocate after he just found $2 million in a goddamned suitcase? Why don't you explain your motives for defending such stupidity? Either you have some motive, or you are actually such a raving imbecile that you think these arguments make sense. So instead of whining about "low blows", why don't you realize that I was actually giving your intellect the fucking benefit of the doubt by assuming you had some unspoken motive?
My motive is defending their idiocy within the context of the movie, and by extension the possibility that the movie could be enjoyed by someone who wasn't just an idiot trying to look impressive by liking the same thing The Critics like. I accept the position that if you reject the movie's premise because at some point the characters are just too dumb then it's a bad movie. I apparently have a higher tolerance level for stupidity in my entertainment than you do, though that isn't what I'd call an advantage.

And I'm not arguing that Moss would have a hard time moving in spite of having found a big sack of money, I'm saying that moving raises a signal flag that "Hey! I just found a big sack of money!" It's a red herring anyway: it would have been a lot harder to find him if he'd done everything (anything) right, but he didn't because of morality-induced-stupidity. He was a cowboy, and he was by God gonna take care of this on his own or die tryin'. Turns out he died tryin', and got his wife killed for his trouble, and there's the movie.
I might reciprocate by speculating that your uncharacteristic anti-intellectual populism in consistently attacking "high art" is a subconscious outlet to pander to the troglodytes so frequently alienated by your ruthlessly scientific manner, compounded in this case by an inability to entertain the existence of lethal logically unwieldy moral systems in fictional realms in blind defiance of their plenitude in reality. Fortunately I'm too classy for that sort of thing.
I'll bet you patted yourself on the back for that little bit of self-consciously erudite nose-in-the-air posturing, didn't you? Too bad it doesn't save your moronic argument, or excuse your laughable failure to pick up on the dumbest characters in cinema this side of Yosemite Sam.
I did a little. I hope you picked up that it was ironic erudite-nose-etc posturing when I said "{I} don't even honestly believe a word of it."
...and don't even HONESTLY believe a word of it
Yea, that there.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Sriad wrote:I'm saying: their stupidity is a product of their morality.

If your threshold of character stupidity is low enough that you don't enjoy the movie, that's fine. I'm just trying to elucidate my position that their morality-induced-stupidity is a deliberate aspect of the film that the Coen brothers made, not a flaw in some Ed Wood style comedy of errors.
That makes no sense at all. If I have some moral code about helping a dying man, that doesn't mean I have to suddenly turn into a moron. This is a huge non sequitur; there is no reason why moral codes should lead to stupidity.
My motive is defending their idiocy within the context of the movie, and by extension the possibility that the movie could be enjoyed by someone who wasn't just an idiot trying to look impressive by liking the same thing The Critics like. I accept the position that if you reject the movie's premise because at some point the characters are just too dumb then it's a bad movie. I apparently have a higher tolerance level for stupidity in my entertainment than you do, though that isn't what I'd call an advantage.
It is especially egregious when the entire film's plot hinges upon those acts of inexcusable stupidity.
And I'm not arguing that Moss would have a hard time moving in spite of having found a big sack of money, I'm saying that moving raises a signal flag that "Hey! I just found a big sack of money!" It's a red herring anyway: it would have been a lot harder to find him if he'd done everything (anything) right, but he didn't because of morality-induced-stupidity. He was a cowboy, and he was by God gonna take care of this on his own or die tryin'. Turns out he died tryin', and got his wife killed for his trouble, and there's the movie.
Which is nonsense. For the umpteenth time, we're talking about a shithole trailer park. The guy was probably among the ranks of the "occasionally" employed, and could simply tell people he was leaving because he got a lead on a job out east. There, done. And if he didn't know anybody in his trailer park very well, then he didn't even have to do that. People don't normally expect to be informed about all of their neighbours' life plans, for fuck's sake.

I've had plenty of people in my neighbourhood pack up and leave without telling me why. I don't immediately think "they must have found a shitload of gangster money".
I might reciprocate by speculating that your uncharacteristic anti-intellectual populism in consistently attacking "high art" is a subconscious outlet to pander to the troglodytes so frequently alienated by your ruthlessly scientific manner, compounded in this case by an inability to entertain the existence of lethal logically unwieldy moral systems in fictional realms in blind defiance of their plenitude in reality. Fortunately I'm too classy for that sort of thing.
I'll bet you patted yourself on the back for that little bit of self-consciously erudite nose-in-the-air posturing, didn't you? Too bad it doesn't save your moronic argument, or excuse your laughable failure to pick up on the dumbest characters in cinema this side of Yosemite Sam.
I did a little. I hope you picked up that it was ironic erudite-nose-etc posturing when I said "{I} don't even honestly believe a word of it."
...and don't even HONESTLY believe a word of it
Yea, that there.
Wow, you really are fucking stupid, aren't you? It wasn't your sincerity I was poking fun at. It was the fact that you obviously tried really hard to make your putdown more literate than mine. Nice to see the point sailing over your head. But hey, feel free to continue pretending you're not making a fool of yourself with these moronic arguments of yours.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Sidewinder wrote: Nonetheless, one law enforcement agency's failure to share info with another one is a MAJOR sign of incompetence, unless this is an intentional effort to fuckup an investigation on police corruption, police brutality, or tampering of evidence. Then it becomes a MAJOR sign of corruption.

Well, which is it? Is the sheriff's failure to ask the FBI to check if they have Anton's fingerprints on file an act of incompetence, or corruption?
Why do you assume he didn't? It's not like they would get the result back via email. That took a whole lot of time back in the day. Such evidence would be obtained long after it was over. Frankly, such a scene would be a waste of time given the storyline of the movie.
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Post by Knife »

Haha. It was a good movie until about half way through where shit went form 'mistakes' to 'plot devices'.

I actually liked the characters for a long time, but towards the end it was really a switch to what they did in the film as compared to what they did to that point.

Really, Go Baby Gone was a better movie.
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