The Dark Knight (GODDAMN SPOILERS)

[xerex]

goddamot. I thought it was real, blends right in with the TDK promotional material.

still. food for thought. its definately a good way to present the Riddler in Nolanverse Gotham.

[Admiral Valdemar]

whoa that is good.

so the Riddler is either a Zodiac killer type........or (out of left field) maybe a profiler brought in to discover the identity of Batman ?

Both ideas are good. Both would fit in with the world Nolan has created. The idea of The Riddler being a profiler would fit more in line with the current theme of Batman being a wanted man. But a Zodiac-esque killer would be another avenue, allowing for more of the detective side of the protagonist. Either way, no green suited Carrey.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe he becomes a 'Zodiac Killer' type to lure out Batman. He might end up icing some criminals, instead of civilians. The Penguin's men?

Will Two-Face be coming back, anywhoo?

[Admiral Valdemar]

We've been over this: unless you have a crystal ball for me, I can't tell you if Two-Face is coming back. It's intentionally ambiguous. We don't even know if a third damn film is in the works.

As for a Zodiac killer route, it's been discussed earlier in the thread and elsewhere that The Riddler could start off as an FBI profiler working for GPD, who then gets obsessed over this whole case (think Mahone from Prison Break) and becomes a murderer to try and lure Batman out. You then get both your killer detective work, and the whole agent of the feds working to take Batman down angle.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm sorry if I'm being a bit repetitive... the last few days have been a daze for me.

(Working at 11pm-7am in the hostipal for a week has fucked up my brain. I'm not a nocturnal crime fighting vigilante sociopath, okay? )

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

You know, that 'green suited Carrey' comment got me thinking. Ironically enough, while early '90s Carrey would indeed be hilariously inappropriate for the Nolan-verse, modern Carrey (Number 23, Truman Show, Eternal Sunshine, etc) with all his dramaticalness cred, would actually make a pretty decent Riddler, and if he wasn't already associated with the Schumacher Batman days people might actually consider him for the role.

Well, I think it's funny.

[Buddha]

Early '90s Carrey Well, I think it's funny.

It might work as long as Carrey can mold his style to the character and maintain belivibility. You don't want to have the next movie be a popcorn shitflick. It would be the thing that would kill any hope of a gracefull finish to the movies.

[Admiral Valdemar]

IF Carrey were to do it, you'd have to try hard to convince the public that this isn't a sign of the dreaded sequel curse hitting home. Though it would be impossible for that to be the case anyway, given Nolan's record and how most of the cast have stated they'd not work on the movie if Nolan wasn't at the helm writing and directing and if Warner Bros. tried to introduce, say, Robin or something equally lame and childish. The success of TDK is down to transcending the traditional comic book movie and becoming something more, hence being more along the lines of Memento or The Prestige (and of course, Heat which Nolan wanted to emulate) in drama, not Burton's attempts at the franchise.

Had William Fichtner not already been used as the mob bank manager, I'd have liked to see him in any sequel given the aforementioned roles he's had that relate to the profiler-cum-criminal role.

I mean wow.

[Shroom Man 777]

God DAMN that movie was fun

And, yeah. No to Jack Sparrow, I mean, Johnny Depp. As the Riddler. Seriously, I don't think he'd gel too well with the established cast. Does Depp even work with other established actors, aside from Orlando Bloom in the Pirates movies? Most Depp movies are just carried by Depp alone, whereas the actors in Nolan's movies are people who are known to work rather well with artists of similar caliber.

And doesn't his close friendship with Burton preclude him from going over Nolan's camp? Wasn't there issues with Burton and the new stuff?

[Admiral Valdemar]

I'm unsure of any enmity between Burton and Nolan over this. If anything, Schumacher should be the one fuming, but he did at least sort of apologise for his movies when TDK came out. Even if the trailers had Optimus Prime voicing over to Danny Elfman's score.

I don't think Depp would be the one to work in this series anyway. It would be better thinking outside the box, which is how Bale, Ledger and Eckhart were chosen, rather than whoever was the big box office winner of the time (I mean, Iron Man was almost going to be Tom Cruise!).

I'd be happy with a new talent or someone we've not thought of. Nolan would know what he's looking for, given everyone had doubts over Ledger and look how that turned out.

[Rye]

I was thinking the other day that if Nolan wanted the Joker in the new one, one person that would remotely resemble ledger with experience of playing sick freaks is Brad Dourif, he was the creepy doctor in Alien Resurrection, Wormtongue in LotR, and the psychopathic betazoid in ST:Voyager.

I doubt there'd be issues with Burton and Nolan, neither of them strike me as particularly arseholish people.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I saw Dourif at the London Film & Comic Con in July. He seems to be a good choice as far as the somewhat obscure criteria is concerned.

But I did have a good idea myself for one, though I can't for the life of me remember who I considered now.

[Broomstick]

Well, I FINALLY saw the movie. In IMAX (Other Half's insistence)

Wow!

Part of the impact for me was that I lived and worked in Chicago for 20 years - and if you haven't been to Chicago and want to know what it looks like, look at this movie. Holy fuck! That opening scene? I used to do my own banking at that very bank branch. I know those streets, those trains, those bridges, those office buildings (I worked in a few of them over the years), I've driven Lower Wacker Drive (they called it "Lower 5th", I think), all those other location shots. I lived in an apartment not any different than what they showed for the Gordon's, including the wooden fire escape/porch in the back.

It did, however, backfire in just one set of scenes: "Ferries from Navy Pier? Chicago doesn't have ferries, those are the dinner cruise boats!" (Yeah, I've been on those a few times, too!) "Oh, right, movie - stop recognizing places"

Ledger's Joker is now the standard - he beat Nicholson. He was a seriously crazy guy, but horribly human. I like that there's no backstory, it works better than no one knows where he came from. Evil, chaotic, but smart, too. I really wish Ledger was alive to bring that character back another time.

Oh, and that semi doing a somersault down LaSalle Street? Just amazing.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Well, I FINALLY saw the movie. In IMAX (Other Half's insistence)

Wow!

Part of the impact for me was that I lived and worked in Chicago for 20 years - and if you haven't been to Chicago and want to know what it looks like, look at this movie. Holy fuck! That opening scene? I used to do my own banking at that very bank branch. I know those streets, those trains, those bridges, those office buildings (I worked in a few of them over the years), I've driven Lower Wacker Drive (they called it "Lower 5th", I think), all those other location shots. I lived in an apartment not any different than what they showed for the Gordon's, including the wooden fire escape/porch in the back.

It did, however, backfire in just one set of scenes: "Ferries from Navy Pier? Chicago doesn't have ferries, those are the dinner cruise boats!" (Yeah, I've been on those a few times, too!) "Oh, right, movie - stop recognizing places"

Must be fun being able to state you had business with a mob bank The Joker hit. And Gotham is an island, like NY, so those boats would be standard ferries without having to film in another city and ruin the look.

Ledger's Joker is now the standard - he beat Nicholson. He was a seriously crazy guy, but horribly human. I like that there's no backstory, it works better than no one knows where he came from. Evil, chaotic, but smart, too. I really wish Ledger was alive to bring that character back another time.

That is part of the genius of the Nolan Joker. He said that the story was mainly about Dent, and that The Joker was really a force of nature causing chaos in the background, moving events on. The character has a past, because he is human and those stories about his scars could be partly real in some way. In the end, though, you have someone who just is now, who has undergone the transformation that Bruce Wayne is going through having started in BB, and that Harvey Dent started and finished in TDK. The Joker is, as it were, the final product of this process, just the polar opposite to what Batman really is.

Really, even if Ledger were still alive, they should leave The Joker be now. He has served his purpose - bringing a city to its knees, destroying their "White Knight" and making their Dark Knight an outcast - and if another film is made, it should only refer to the events of TDK as an historical turning point along the same lines as the escalation Gordon feared at the end of BB.

Oh, and that semi doing a somersault down LaSalle Street? Just amazing.

The Sunday morning (I mean the 0230 showing, here) IMAX showing I first saw it in had multiple parts of the movie where the audience was noticeably in awe. That was one of them. There are few films I've seen with applause at the end too. I used to think it was a cheesy thing American geeks did after seeing a new Star Wars or something.

Though it was hilarious how one guy blurted out "Woo! Watchmen, YEAH!" before the start of the trailers in the cinema.

[Broomstick]

And Gotham is an island, like NY, so those boats would be standard ferries without having to film in another city and ruin the look.

The center of Chicago's business district is also an island, people either aren't aware of it, or forget about it. It's just that the water creating the island is a narrow river, so it's always been easily spanned by bridges rather than boats (you see a lot of those bridges in the movie). There are no ferries in Chicago, those really were the dinner cruise boats. All they did was pull the dining tables out of them and put in some basic seating, probably benches since there were so many people draped over them you didn't really see the furniture. Seriously, I've been on those boats, I recognized them inside and out. But, unless you've been to Chicago and are familiar with those boats I doubt very much you'd realize that.

It's like the bagpipers in the police funeral - my Other Half and I know 5 of the guys who were on screen. They used Chicago-area pipers for those roles.

You must understand - there was much less CGI for that movie than most big blockbusters. I was still working in Chicago at the time they were filming. Those of us living and working in the city put up with a LOT of inconvenience - LaSalle street is the equivalent of New York's Wall Street, it's the heart of the business and financial district and it was blocked off between the Stock Exchange (the building you see behind the flipping truck) all the way to city hall while they filmed that scene, which took more than one day. The initial bank robbery scene was also filmed next to city hall, which, again, inconvenienced the city government while that was going on. The scenes of the car/motorbike speeding under elevated train tracks looked like a mix of Printer's Row and the Near West Side - that's Wabash, Lake, and some other major, major city streets that were closed down for those scenes. The underground road scenes were Lower Wacker Drive - and the related under roads - that's where all the downtown business deliveries are made, so while they were filming that getting anything into the city by truck was awkward. Those scenes where people were packing the streets when the bridges were blocked off, that was Upper Wacker Drive and Michigan Avenue, again, two major thoroughfares through downtown AND two major bridges shut down during filming. Not to mention disrupting things at Navy Pier during the ferry scenes, shutting down various businesses during interior filming. Of course, some of this was done at night or on the weekends, but it was still a bit annoying. After all that, it's gratifying to see that they actually made use of all that time and effort.

The "batcave" exterior filming wouldn't be too bad - that was a patch of riverfront just north of the Olgivie train station which doesn't see much traffic or use.

I'm still trying to figure out if the restaurant scene with Dent, Wayne, and the two girlfriends was the Grand Luxe Cafe - it has that flavor, but I haven't been in every room of the Grand Luxe by a long shot so I'm not sure about that scene, it could be somewhere else.

And, of course, our vertiginous skyscraper views - Chicago has 5 of the world's 10 tallest buildings. They actually did NOT show the Hancock, and while the Sears Tower was definitely in the background of a couple shots it was not one of the better known angles nor did they show the whole building so it's quite likely those two icons that scream "CHICAGO!" were deliberately kept out of the picture. It was actually a pleasant change to see some of our other tall buildings on film.

[ray245]

God DAMN that movie was fun

And, yeah. No to Jack Sparrow, I mean, Johnny Depp. As the Riddler. Seriously, I don't think he'd gel too well with the established cast. Does Depp even work with other established actors, aside from Orlando Bloom in the Pirates movies? Most Depp movies are just carried by Depp alone, whereas the actors in Nolan's movies are people who are known to work rather well with artists of similar caliber.

And doesn't his close friendship with Burton preclude him from going over Nolan's camp? Wasn't there issues with Burton and the new stuff?

Nope...when Batman begins was released, Burton LOVED it.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Thanks for the insight, Broomie. Course, it's just cheaper and easier to stay in Chicago and use those boats as ferries, rather than in to NYC or something. I did wonder he you also saw the fake set signs up, like the "Rory's First Kiss" title, starring Bale, Caine, Ledger and so on. Only an idiot would think that a different film, heh.

It is good that they disguised the city rather than make it obvious it's a real one like Chicago. There was a panoramic city shot in BB that was fully CGI, but otherwise Nolan hates CGI, which is why the whole thing looks flawless. The only real action scene that had to be faked because of authority pressure was the Hong Kong glide. I think the city council got a little antsy after that scene in the second Tomb Raider movie.

[Shroom Man 777]

Another thought...

If Edward Nigma/the Riddler is playing an FBI profiler or investigator, he might end up discovering that Harvey Dent isn't dead, but is in fact hidden in some secret prison - and he springs the dude out of jail!

Much carnage and mayhem ensues!

[Broomstick]

Thanks for the insight, Broomie. Course, it's just cheaper and easier to stay in Chicago and use those boats as ferries, rather than in to NYC or something.

Despite the annoyance and inconvenience, Chicago as a whole does have a good grip on the idea that such filming DOES bring money into the city. Hence, the city can be quite accommodating to filmmakers (just don't piss off Mr. Daley, you'll do fine) When someone is filming in Chicago there is an attempt made to get them to hire local businesses and talent, and you do see it on the screen (Backdraft is another one where a LOT of locals made it onto the film)

I was rather sad to see the scenes filmed at the Berghoff - it was a well-known family restaurant here for over a century, located downtown, brewed their own beer before it was fashionable, and they had a good corned beef sandwich. I have fond memories of stopping by there after marching in downtown parades. But they are no longer in business. The Berghoff, by the way, is where they filmed the bar scene where the mobster leaves and the crooked cop is confronted by Two-Face. Not as sad, however, as seeing Ledger's performance and knowing it is the last we'll ever see from him.

You don't have to be familiar with Chicago to enjoy the movie, but it certainly adds something to it.

I did wonder he you also saw the fake set signs up, like the "Rory's First Kiss" title, starring Bale, Caine, Ledger and so on. Only an idiot would think that a different film, heh.

Oh, yes, and sometimes we had a good laugh about it. You see, when filming is disrupting traffic in the Loop area (that's the central business/financial district, the elevated train tracks make a loop around it, hence the name) they do notify businesses so the employees can plan accordingly, and detours/shut-downs are also noted on TV and radio broadcasts of traffic conditions. So you'd hear things like "Part of LaSalle street is blocked off starting at XXX o'clock today and tomorrow due to filming the new Batman movie, it's area marked off by the signs for Rory's First Kiss. Ha, ha, who are they fooling?" Eventually they did drop the charade, as it was getting ridiculous, and just admitted it was the new Batman movie.

[ray245]

However, given that the bat-fans LOVES spoilers and post spoilers without regards, on youtube, with those spy cameras filming the location shots...

It is damn annoying....if you are following the development of the film. Those fans even post tons of spoilers as the topic TITTLE, and no one was banned...not to mention finding and posting leaked and spoiler pic all over the web.

I HATE those spoilers...REALLY ruined my experience in watching TDK. Hell, some of them even post spoiler pic in the non-spoiler section, the caption thread!

And no one was banned.


Did I mention I hate those fans?

[Admiral Valdemar]

So then don't read forums and threads related to a movie beforehand. Simple. You can't trust most people online to not reveal something, hell, even the movie trailers can contain a lot of spoilerific stuff.

[ray245]

So then don't read forums and threads related to a movie beforehand. Simple. You can't trust most people online to not reveal something, hell, even the movie trailers can contain a lot of spoilerific stuff.

I mean...it IS annoying when you try and search heath ledger on YOUTUBE, and the first thing you see is a spoiler pic.


Moreover, I want to discuss certain things that is not directly linked to TDK at the time, for example the anime shorts for batman.

The most annoying thing is, the mods wait until june before they start to sort the boards out, shifting non-spoiler topic into the right section, and before that the mods don't even edit or ban people who put spoilers as the topic title.

[Patrick Degan]

Saw the movie tonight.

Damn.

Definitely the best comic book movie I've seen to date, and one in which the hero really gets his nuts put through the wringer. And not just him but also the other heroes of Gotham and it's tortured populace.

To add to other observations regarding this version of the Joker, in every other incarnation, he's been nothing more than a murderous clown with some neat toys and a gimmick. Here, he's a destructive force of nature who changes the entire dynamic of Gotham single-handed and in a way it may never recover from. Crime doesn't matter to him, he has no politics, and he's not out on some personal quest. The best description I can come up with for the Ledger Joker: imagine the sort of kid who likes to torture small animals because it's fun to him. Gets a real kick out of it, even thinks of new tortures for the critters and can't wait to try them out simply to see how they'll work. That's the Joker in this movie, and the world is the object of his playtime.

This movie also makes the fall of Harvey Dent truly epic. You knew it was going to happen, knew there was no way for it to not happen, and yet watching it unfold, watching Dent's life being so brutally destroyed and simply as a means to a very twisted end left you with a sense of helplessness as it happened.

And then, there's the Batman, having to confront the unintended consequences of his little one-man crusade: the copycats, the mob's efforts to circumvent him which hinders the law's efforts to bring them down, and finally the Joker's chaos being done in his name and it's really starting to wear him down. He wants to build up Harvey Dent not just because he thinks he'll get Rachel if he can go back to having a normal life, but because he's seeking escape from the craziness that's been unleashed in his wake —which then ramps up tenfold with the advent of the Joker— then to see both of those dreams destroyed in a dark mirror of the deaths of his parents and having to take the weight of the Joker's deaths as well as Two-Face's, to become a hated, hunted man, leaves Batman in a very dark place because he can never clear himself not only legally but also in the sense of his own guilt. For this Batman, his self-doubt is not centred upon the question "Am I really doing any good out there?" but rather "How much blood is really on my hands?"

For myself, these three elements are what made TDK really stand out beyond every other comic book movie I've yet seen. That and the evident care which was taken with the production of this film by everyone involved to really sell it to the audience, particularly Heath Ledger, who locked himself in a hotel room for a month just to form his sense of the character in his own mind, and Aaron Eckhart, who based his idea of Harvey Dent as a mirror reflection of the Batman. I sat through two and a half hours not realising how much time was passing on screen —even with the unavoidably comic-book-esque elements like the super celphone sonar.

Speaking of which... I've noticed in this thread some discussion about realism and where TDK allegedly falls down in that department. Let's get real: to sit through a comic-book movie, you've got to apply a whole different suspension-of-disbelief beyond what science fiction demands because you have to know going in that a lot of what takes place is just simply bullshit. You have to accept, for example, that a large dose of gamma radiation will —instead of turning your internal organs and bone marrow to a thin liquid goo that seeps out of your every bodily orifice while you twitch to death— cause you to undergo a transformation, when angered, into a seven foot tall, thousand-pound, green steroid freak whose pants miraculously take on the properties of spandex no matter what material they were originally made out of. Or that not only can a man fly, he can reverse time by making the Earth spin backwards. Things like that. By comparison, the super phone sonar and a rich guy running around in a bat costume, beating up thugs and gliding with stubby fold-up wings, presents the least amount of plausibility problems for a comic-book movie.

The one question that remains is where Christopher Nolan's going to go from this point. What story do you come up with that doesn't look cheap by comparison? It has to be obvious how few of the Rogues' Gallery could really have a place in the Nolanverse Batman, being such one-note gimmicks as characters. And do you try to rehabilitate the Batman from his present image in Gotham as a psychotic cop-killer or run with it? Because as logic stands, there is no way for the Nolanverse Batman saga to have a happy ending and remain credible. So where can you go from "up"?

[Knife]

I'm not keen on the Riddler bit, but if it's going to be done, either with the Zodiac-like character or the Profilers, you'd need some talent in there to pull it off. John Malcovich would rule at that.

The Profiler

Hard working cop gets a little obsessed.

Slides into madness when he can't find the Batman.

I know how to find Batman, I'll kill a bunch of people and draw him out.

[Admiral Valdemar]

TDK isn't a comic book movie. It's a grade A crime thriller. I actually find it degrades the work when people refer to it in the same way one would Spider-man or Hulk.

For continuations, I'm uncertain. But I do know this: if they left it at just two films, not three, then I'd be a happy chap.