McCain's 3.6 Trillion dollar tax increase.

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Contact:

McCain's 3.6 Trillion dollar tax increase.

Post by SirNitram » 2008-08-15 08:57pm

WSJ

Op-Ed, so skipping to the relevent bit.
In contrast, Sen. McCain's tax plan largely leaves the middle class behind. His one and only middle-class tax cut -- a slow phase-in of a bigger dependent exemption -- would provide no benefit whatsoever to 101 million families who do not have children or other dependents, or who have a low income.

But Sen. McCain's plan does include one new proposal that would result in higher taxes on the middle class. As even Sen. McCain's advisers have acknowledged, his health-care plan would impose a $3.6 trillion tax increase over 10 years on workers. Sen. McCain's plan will count the health care you get from your employer as if it were taxable cash income. Even after accounting for Sen. McCain's proposed health-care tax credits, this plan would eventually leave tens of millions of middle-class families paying higher taxes. In addition, as the Congressional Budget Office has shown, this kind of plan would push people into higher tax brackets and increase the taxes people pay as their compensation rises, raising marginal tax rates by even more than if we let the entire Bush tax-cut plan expire tomorrow.

The McCain plan represents Bush economics on steroids. It has $3.4 trillion more in tax cuts than President Bush is proposing, largely directed at corporations and the most affluent. Sen. McCain would implement these cuts without proposing any meaningful steps to simplify taxes or eliminate distortions and loopholes. In addition, Sen. McCain has floated over $1 trillion in new spending increases but barely any specific spending cuts.

..

In contrast, Sen. McCain has put forward the most fiscally reckless presidential platform in modern memory. The likely results of his Bush-plus policies are clear. As Berkeley economist Brad Delong has estimated, the McCain plan, as compared to the Obama plan, would lower annual incomes by $300 billion or more in real terms by 2017, costing the typical worker $1,800 or more due to the effect of large deficits on national savings and thus capital formation. Sen. McCain's neglect of critical public investments would further impede economic growth for decades to come.
McCain, in Aspen today.
When Isaacson said the proposal would have to be on the table to be negotiated off the table, McCain drew a smattering of laughter when he said “I have to be against tax increases, as you know.”
Says it all.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter

User avatar
Erik von Nein
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1747
Joined: 2005-06-25 04:27am
Location: Boy Hell. Much nicer than Girl Hell.
Contact:

Post by Erik von Nein » 2008-08-15 09:01pm

So, wait, if the Op-Ed is accurate McCain is planning on cutting taxes to corps/wealthy/whatever by 3.4 trillion while his idiotic healthcare plan would need/cause an increase of 3.6 trillion in taxes on anyone receiving healthcare from employers?

*facepalm*
"To make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe."
— Carl Sagan

Image

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70027
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong » 2008-08-15 09:08pm

Erik von Nein wrote:So, wait, if the Op-Ed is accurate McCain is planning on cutting taxes to corps/wealthy/whatever by 3.4 trillion while his idiotic healthcare plan would need/cause an increase of 3.6 trillion in taxes on anyone receiving healthcare from employers?

*facepalm*
As if this is a surprise.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

User avatar
Erik von Nein
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1747
Joined: 2005-06-25 04:27am
Location: Boy Hell. Much nicer than Girl Hell.
Contact:

Post by Erik von Nein » 2008-08-15 09:10pm

It's not, really, it's just so obviously stupid.
"To make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe."
— Carl Sagan

Image

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-08-15 09:12pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Erik von Nein wrote:So, wait, if the Op-Ed is accurate McCain is planning on cutting taxes to corps/wealthy/whatever by 3.4 trillion while his idiotic healthcare plan would need/cause an increase of 3.6 trillion in taxes on anyone receiving healthcare from employers?

*facepalm*
As if this is a surprise.
Only the magnitude is surprising. You would think the giant precipice looming in front of them might have at least convinced them to slow down wrecking the country, but obviously by considering them to be evil, selfish lying bastards I was giving them too much credit.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman » 2008-08-15 09:14pm

It is accurate as the little known centerpiece of the McCain healthcare 'platform' is stripping the tax breaks employers and employees get WRT employer provided health insurance.

What a lot of people don't realize is that McCain's $5000 tax credit pays for less than a third of the cost of decent health insurance for a family.

His health insurance 'reforms' are among the reasons that moved this former conservative to back Barack Obama.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant

User avatar
Uraniun235
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13772
Joined: 2002-09-12 12:47am
Location: OREGON
Contact:

Post by Uraniun235 » 2008-08-15 09:15pm

Sen. McCain's plan will count the health care you get from your employer as if it were taxable cash income.
Who conceived this... this obscenity?
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
Image
What is Project Zohar?
"On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it." - RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk

User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Contact:

Post by SirNitram » 2008-08-15 09:31pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
Sen. McCain's plan will count the health care you get from your employer as if it were taxable cash income.
Who conceived this... this obscenity?
I'm sure if you check, a lobbyist on McCain's campaign works for the healthcare industry.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter

User avatar
Aratech
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2006-11-04 04:11pm
Location: Right behind you

Post by Aratech » 2008-08-15 09:35pm

Cripes... I know the guy said he knew next to nothing about economics, but this takes the cake. Is anyone else filled with a sense of impending financial doom?
"Impossible! Lasers can't even harm out deflector dish! Clearly these foes are masters of illusion!' 'But sir, my console says we-' 'MASTERS OF ILLUSION! - General Schatten

User avatar
acesand8s
Padawan Learner
Posts: 307
Joined: 2003-04-14 11:48pm
Location: Rhode Island

Post by acesand8s » 2008-08-15 09:45pm

SirNitram wrote:I'm sure if you check, a lobbyist on McCain's campaign works for the healthcare industry.
What would they care if they get paid by tax-exempt or taxable income? They get paid either way. I mean, this is just cliche maniacal-laughter-and-mustache-twirling evil. Even my hardcore Republican, voted-for-Bush-twice roommate thinks this is crazy.
"Typical Canadian wimpiness. That's why you have the snowball and we have the H-bomb." Grandpa Simpson

User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Contact:

Post by SirNitram » 2008-08-15 09:58pm

acesand8s wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I'm sure if you check, a lobbyist on McCain's campaign works for the healthcare industry.
What would they care if they get paid by tax-exempt or taxable income? They get paid either way. I mean, this is just cliche maniacal-laughter-and-mustache-twirling evil. Even my hardcore Republican, voted-for-Bush-twice roommate thinks this is crazy.
I'll break this down.

Health insurance costs spike even further = Less people getting preventative care.

Less preventative care = More problems.

More problems = More hospital visits or more expensive treatments.

Treatment and the like is always going to be more expensive, and likely also more profitable, than preventative care.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter

User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man
Contact:

Post by The Yosemite Bear » 2008-08-15 10:31pm

no shit 28 grams of prevention = .5 kilos of cure.

sorry I guess the GOP has slipped into cartoon evil some more....
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin

User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2008-08-16 12:20am

Apparently, McCain is determined to bankrupt the United States.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia

User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman » 2008-08-16 12:24am

SirNitram wrote:
acesand8s wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I'm sure if you check, a lobbyist on McCain's campaign works for the healthcare industry.
What would they care if they get paid by tax-exempt or taxable income? They get paid either way. I mean, this is just cliche maniacal-laughter-and-mustache-twirling evil. Even my hardcore Republican, voted-for-Bush-twice roommate thinks this is crazy.
I'll break this down.

Health insurance costs spike even further = Less people getting preventative care.

Less preventative care = More problems.

More problems = More hospital visits or more expensive treatments.

Treatment and the like is always going to be more expensive, and likely also more profitable, than preventative care.
True, but if less people carry insurance due to the cost, the health insurance industry actually loses out under the McCain 'reforms'.

IMHO the real beneficiaries of the McCain plan would be the companies who can use it as an excuse to drop employer provided health coverage, and that's the real reason behind the plan.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant

User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Contact:

Post by SirNitram » 2008-08-16 12:42am

Wouldn't surprise me. Then again, which is more profitable: The cure or vaccine, or the treatment? Big Pharma gets some too.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter

User avatar
PainRack
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7417
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Location: Singapura

Post by PainRack » 2008-08-16 08:26am

SirNitram wrote: I'll break this down.

Health insurance costs spike even further = Less people getting preventative care.

Less preventative care = More problems.

More problems = More hospital visits or more expensive treatments.

Treatment and the like is always going to be more expensive, and likely also more profitable, than preventative care.
Errr... its actually more expensive to treat them too on the part of the healthcare industries.

On the other hand, going in for a quick bloodcheck yearly and a poke here and there is infinitely more sustainable as a money source and doesn't require you to buy so many expensive equipment.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner

User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Post by CmdrWilkens » 2008-08-16 11:23am

Glocksman wrote:True, but if less people carry insurance due to the cost, the health insurance industry actually loses out under the McCain 'reforms'.

IMHO the real beneficiaries of the McCain plan would be the companies who can use it as an excuse to drop employer provided health coverage, and that's the real reason behind the plan.

You would think the Healthcare companies would lose out but you aren't considering WHO is going to drop their coverage. Its going to be the folks who are hurting the msot to begin with, the ones who due to diet, environment, and other causes are more likely to get sick to begin with. Basically rising costs mean the companies get to drop a whole bunch of expensive unhealthy folks leaving them only with rich healthy customers who they don't have t spend money on. This means profit margins go up even as customer base goes down.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven

User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman » 2008-08-16 11:29am

Interestingly enough, McSame's health 'reforms' were the subject of a piece I wrote for my union local's newsletter last month.

glocksman wrote:As we all know from firsthand experience, one of our big issues with the company during contract negotiations is the cost of health insurance and who pays for it. Under current law, employer provided health insurance is a non-taxable benefit. This means that neither we nor TJ Maxx pay taxes on the money used to purchase health insurance.

The reasoning behind not taxing health insurance is simple: it encourages employers to provide coverage and workers to take the insurance.

John McCain wants to change that and start taxing employer provided insurance.

You are probably asking yourself ‘why?’. The reason why is that he wants to replace employer provided insurance with a $2500 ($5000 for a family) tax credit to enable people to buy insurance on the open market. He claims that this will ‘encourage competition’ and lower costs.

This is not true.

What it will do is force people such as ourselves to pay a lot more for insurance than we currently pay. Let’s look at why it will not work. First off, the cost of insurance exceeds the proposed tax credit by a large margin. For example, the total cost of Welborn HMO insurance for employees of Vanderburgh County* is $503.45/month for single people and $1,510.33/month for family coverage. This works out to $6041.40 per year for a single person and $18,123.96 per year for a family.

As you can see, his proposed tax credit would only pay about 1/3 of the cost and that’s assuming individual families can negotiate the same prices that the county government can. Frankly the odds of you and I negotiating the same prices are lower than the odds of winning the Powerball jackpot, as we do not have the group buying power that large companies and governments have.

When McCain says he wants to "eliminate the bias" towards employer-sponsored health benefits by cutting tax advantages employers receive for offering coverage, it's not hard to guess where it will lead -- a flood of employers dropping their health coverage and pushing their employees into the private market to fend for themselves.

This is NOT unintentional. McCain and his corporate advisers think it is good for individuals and families to pay more because it makes them think twice before seeking health care, and—in theory—they will shop around for cheaper care. And if they can’t cover the costs of real health insurance with McCain’s tax credit, the insurance industry will sell you lower-cost plans with big holes in coverage or costly co-pays—that is, if you are not already sick and you aren’t too old for them to see you as profitable.

Under the McCain ‘plan’, the reality is that millions of working Americans will no longer be able to afford health insurance, and the sick and elderly won’t be able to purchase coverage at any price.

Then again, John McCain doesn’t have to worry about health care himself, as his is fully provided for by the Federal Government and his wife is worth over $100 million.

You and I aren’t multimillionaires and simple reality trumps McCain’s crackpot theories.

To sum it all up, the McCain campaign could use these simple marketing slogans for their plan: ‘Don't Get Sick in America’, ‘Only the Healthy & Wealthy Need Apply’ or ‘You're On Your Own’.
John McCain can go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. :finger:
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant

User avatar
Questor
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1601
Joined: 2002-07-17 06:27pm
Location: Landover
Contact:

Post by Questor » 2008-08-16 07:16pm

For those who want to know what it costs an employer in the US, granted our benefits are good, but I doubt they are completely out of line:

From the agreement between my employer and our union
9.2 The District shall pay $8,443 per eligible unit member per benefit year unless modified through the provisions of Article 9.2.2. The District’s contribution for health benefits shall be subject to annual negotiation.

9.2.1 The District shall maintain a minimum of four (4) months of claims in the BMB Health Fund.

9.2.2 The District and CSEA agree that reaching agreement on the funding level is a priority. If agreement is not reached by October 1 of any benefit year, and funding to the BMB is not sufficient to maintain the employee benefits proposed by the BMB, then the District shall cover one-half of the shortfall in funding and the remaining one-half shall be divided equally among active employees participating in the plan and paid for by individual payroll deductions. The payroll deduction shall be implemented no later than November 1.

User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman » 2008-08-16 09:00pm

Jason L. Miles wrote:For those who want to know what it costs an employer in the US, granted our benefits are good, but I doubt they are completely out of line:

From the agreement between my employer and our union
9.2 The District shall pay $8,443 per eligible unit member per benefit year unless modified through the provisions of Article 9.2.2. The District’s contribution for health benefits shall be subject to annual negotiation.

9.2.1 The District shall maintain a minimum of four (4) months of claims in the BMB Health Fund.

9.2.2 The District and CSEA agree that reaching agreement on the funding level is a priority. If agreement is not reached by October 1 of any benefit year, and funding to the BMB is not sufficient to maintain the employee benefits proposed by the BMB, then the District shall cover one-half of the shortfall in funding and the remaining one-half shall be divided equally among active employees participating in the plan and paid for by individual payroll deductions. The payroll deduction shall be implemented no later than November 1.
My county government has a web page up with insurance costs that I mentioned in the original piece (that's what the asterisk denotes), but did not include it in the post.

It's right here.

Note that Welborn HMO is the cheapest health insurance option for county employees.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant

User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man
Contact:

Post by The Yosemite Bear » 2008-08-16 09:13pm

Actually health care was the BIGGEST point of arguement between management and the union on our last negotiations that were just concluded a week ago, five months behind the end of our contract. It has been the biggest arguement between management and the union for over ten years now.

so this trick would possibly actually strengthen unions, as we actually do have our own health care buying blocks for members whose employers don't offer them anymore. Pay dues, get health care that will bankrupt you slower...

Ok so he's planning on destroying the rest of the country for the profit of a few...
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70027
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong » 2008-08-17 12:42am

This is all consistent with the general economic conservative platform, as described by Glenn Beck. These people want to take away any programs intended to make things easier for people who have "failed" at life, by which they mean "are not rich".

In their perverse value system, this is about "fairness". But of course, they have an enormously selective view of "fairness"; the entire capitalist system is arranged in such a manner that life opportunities are enormously different for a rich person than a poor person; this kind of unfairness does not seem to bother them at all. They certainly don't seem to lose sleep over it.

But the idea that the rich might pay a proportion of national tax revenue greater than their percentage of the population: that is unacceptably unfair! And if you have to strip away all of the social programs that make life bearable for the lower and middle class in order to reduce the tax burden on those oh-so-downtrodden rich people, then so be it!
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan » 2008-08-18 02:57am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:no shit 28 grams of prevention = .5 kilos of cure.

sorry I guess the GOP has slipped into cartoon evil some more....
To quote the Doctor Who villain Henry VanStatten: "You know what we found in the Tunguska crater? Microbes that could cure the common cold. Didn't let it out of the lab, of course. Why sell one cure when I can sell a thousand palliatives?"
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)

User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20810
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital » 2008-08-18 06:15am

John McPain is a fitting name indeed.

McCain's indeed not just McSame - it's Bush "Economics" and "Pooh-litics" upgraded.

I fear to think how McPain could upgrade Bush's disaster of a foreign policy, and what his election will signify for the judicial branch of the US - I heard he'd be lobbying hardcore conservatives into judge positions even more than Bush, isn't that right?
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali

User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8701
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider » 2008-08-18 08:59pm

I find it vaguely amusing that no one here has even mentioned the theoretical justification for this; that employers dropping healthcare benefits will enable significant pay rises, which will then cover the cost of private insurance. No one has mentioned it because it's blatantly implausible; virtually all US employers will just treat it as a way to (significantly) cut effective salaries. But on die-hard conservative forums, the rhetoric about 'enabling choice' and 'the efficiency of market forces' will continue in complete denial of this fact.

The people trying to make a case for preventative treatment being in the interests of the healthcare industry are being hopelessly optimistic. The ideal condition for profit maximisation is a nasty chronic condition that can be staved off only with expensive treatments, such that the patient has to plow all their income into healthcare over a period of a couple of decades or so. Ideally they will eventually die with a negative net worth, including sucking as much cash as possible from relatives as well. Thus die-hard Randians will invest in both tobacco companies and cancer treatments.

Of course this is all ok in Libertarian eyes because if people were intelligent enough to demand good cheap preventative care, the market would provide. If they're not intelligent or educated enough to do that, or if they can't afford regular check-ups when they're struggling to make the rent, well that's all their own fault of course.

Post Reply