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fractalsponge1
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Postby fractalsponge1 » 2008-07-25 09:55am

The barbette and the turret frame themselves are the same from the twin to the quad. The details are different at the top, and the gun barrels are obviously different. Perspective effect for the last render makes the twin look a little bigger.

The gun barrels are extrapolated from the details of the venator's heavies, just scaled up for the larger caliber.

Update:

Did a large portion of the trench and the trench brim yesterday, and did the hull panels for the dorsal hull. Going to finish the brim and the trench next, and do the detail pass on the hull panels.

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Postby Aquatain » 2008-07-25 12:44pm

Looks awesome - though i still think you should place the turrets in line close to the superstructure rather than cluster them - looks more like something the empire would build that way i think.
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Postby Raesene » 2008-07-25 01:46pm

Really impressive... btw, 'Bellator' is latin for 'Warrior' if you'd like to stay in the republican naming scheme.

The ion cannon/quad turret positioning look strange to me. I'd move the turret above the forward-pointing ion cannon a bit more back and center, it looks like it's falling off.
Regarding the ion cannon itself, why not cut away the corner of the 'building' and have the cannon on the resulting slope ? I'd think that would increase its firing arc considerably.

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Postby Darth Tanner » 2008-07-26 10:45am

I like it a lot. I'm even growing more fond of the huge forward bulge as I wasn't sure about it to start off with.

One idea however was to have something on the sides of that front bulge as the area below the fiddly bits at the top looks a bit bare there at the moment with just the amour plating. Maybe gun emplacements or hangers?

I'm getting curious what the underside will eventually look like. Especially the hangers and multiple reactors.
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Postby fractalsponge1 » 2008-07-28 07:26am

Pretty much finished the trench now. Added some Venator/Acclamator-style torpedo tubes.

Bellator sounds cool. Perhaps a dual name depending on Standard or Basic then?

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Postby Raesene » 2008-07-28 11:23am

Now that is a star cruiser ! I'll organize the Corellian Brandy for the naming ceremony ;-)

A question to the group of four octuple turrets port midships - are they 'drifting' inwards or are my eyes playing tricks ?

Otherwise great as always, looking forward to the ventral details.

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Postby fractalsponge1 » 2008-07-28 02:12pm

Probably an optical illusion. They're parallel to centerline. And also have a clear fire arc dead ahead :).

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Postby Darth Tanner » 2008-07-28 02:24pm

Very nice, the long nose reminds me of a caiman crocodile.

The side launching missile batteries look very intimidating. Not that the massive number of turrets aren't intimidating by themselves.

This things going to need a bloody big reactor though.
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Postby Raesene » 2008-07-28 02:35pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:Probably an optical illusion. They're parallel to centerline. And also have a clear fire arc dead ahead :).


So they are superfiring ? That would explain the illusion.

How many hours did you work on the ship so far, and how many hours did your computer(s) calculate ;-) ?

Darth Tanner wrote:This things going to need a bloody big reactor though.


That's the reason I'm looking forward to the ventral details - the reactor(s) and hangar(s).
Factalsponge1, are you planning a big hangar or several smaller ones comparable to the secondary bay of an Imperator ? Or will the construction details stay top secret ;-) ?

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"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

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Postby fusion » 2008-07-28 04:39pm

Nice job, it is coming together nicely. Again I have a concern as the sides of the "giant cannon mount" is a bit plain. Maybe you might want to add a few protrusions on the side...

P.S. Can you walk through the barrel of the heavy octo - barrel mount?

P.S.S. When you are finish can you show an average sized house next to the heavy mounts and on the destroyer itself to give a sense of scale to the stuff?

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Postby Einhander Sn0m4n » 2008-07-28 07:10pm

Hey Fractal, mind if I feed you a coupla my designs I've cooked up over the years?
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Postby Vehrec » 2008-07-28 09:38pm

48 side torpedo mounts port and starboard, and 16 forward by my count. So 56 torpedoes in a full broadside salvo if they make a 90 degree turn on exiting. And 112 if they can all bear forward. But given the huge size of the torpedoes in question, I have to wonder how many reloads are onboard, given those massive tubes. Are there ventral ordnance doors that are how those things get inside the ship, or do they come in the hangers and move along internal transport ways?
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Postby JointStrikeFighter » 2008-07-29 07:47am

REALLY REALLY REALLY good

My only dislike is it feels like there is 1 too many of the quad ion cannons along the sides.

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Postby fractalsponge1 » 2008-07-29 12:00pm

@einhander: sure, inspiration is always welcome.

The central ridge is going contain part of the reactor complex. As such there is not going to be very much interstitial spaces that need a lot of protrusions on the surface. My current sketches has 3 reactor regions:

- internal in aft the primary superstructure, immediately forward of the engine block
- a reactor bulb going with components reaching into the central ridge.
Perhaps a set of secondaries and control machinery with the primary reactor itself immediately below and extending into the bulb
- a secondary reactor in a bulb forward on the ventral centerline Haven't worked out the volumes yet, since the positions are in flux.

Will update when I've finalized it.

Scale wise - consider the millenium falcon. Consider that it could perch
behind an ISD tower. Now that part of the tower is the same size as the
corresponding part of the tower here. I'd render a scale shot, but I don't have access to my 3d software right now.

@Raesenne: they are indeed superfiring

As for torpedoes/concussion missiles, I've scaled these based on the
Venator's tubes (maybe a bit larger than those). Also considering the
accalamator's tubes, based on the zero-G entry scene in Republic
Commando. Curiously, in the ICS for both of these ships the reload system is not shown, even though the they must take up a fairly large
space unless there are very few reloads available; it looks like you can
fit the fuselage of a starfighter in comfortably. It does look like SW
proton torpedoes (at least the fighter scale ones) are relatively stubby, so you could probably fit a few end-to-end within a relatively short launch complex. I'm thinking there are probably only going to be 3-4 shots per tube before resupply is necessary.

Which might not actually be much of an issue. Even if the capship killers only had the yield of their volume in slave I seismic charges, which pack 5e19J ~12gigatons in a cylinder that looks like it's ~1m long by .2m diameter, we'd be talking 96 teratons per warhead, so total warhead yield at 4/tube is 43 petatons.

Speaking of which, I think the ventral reload hatch is a very interesting idea. I will have to remember that when I start detailing the ventral hull.

So, for anyone who's interested, the currently visible dorsal/trench armament is:

18 400-teraton super-heavy TL (9x2)
128 170-teraton HTL (32x4)
192 40-teraton HTL (24x8)

For a total dorsal HTL alpha of: 36.64 petatons (~18 ISD)

Also:
48 heavy ion cannon (12x4)
112 capital missile tubes

And, an estimate (assuming quad mounts):
324 MTL (81x4) (adds ~65 teratons, assuming 200 gigaton/shot per

barrel)
7680 LTL (1920x4)

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Postby Einhander Sn0m4n » 2008-07-29 02:30pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:@einhander: sure, inspiration is always welcome.


'Ere ya go. Got weapons figs too.

fractalsponge1 wrote:The central ridge is going contain part of the reactor complex. As such there is not going to be very much interstitial spaces that need a lot of protrusions on the surface. My current sketches has 3 reactor regions:

- internal in aft the primary superstructure, immediately forward of the engine block
- a reactor bulb going with components reaching into the central ridge.
Perhaps a set of secondaries and control machinery with the primary reactor itself immediately below and extending into the bulb
- a secondary reactor in a bulb forward on the ventral centerline Haven't worked out the volumes yet, since the positions are in flux.

Will update when I've finalized it.

Scale wise - consider the millenium falcon. Consider that it could perch
behind an ISD tower. Now that part of the tower is the same size as the
corresponding part of the tower here. I'd render a scale shot, but I don't have access to my 3d software right now.

@Raesenne: they are indeed superfiring

As for torpedoes/concussion missiles, I've scaled these based on the
Venator's tubes (maybe a bit larger than those). Also considering the
accalamator's tubes, based on the zero-G entry scene in Republic
Commando. Curiously, in the ICS for both of these ships the reload system is not shown, even though the they must take up a fairly large
space unless there are very few reloads available; it looks like you can
fit the fuselage of a starfighter in comfortably. It does look like SW
proton torpedoes (at least the fighter scale ones) are relatively stubby, so you could probably fit a few end-to-end within a relatively short launch complex. I'm thinking there are probably only going to be 3-4 shots per tube before resupply is necessary.

Which might not actually be much of an issue. Even if the capship killers only had the yield of their volume in slave I seismic charges, which pack 5e19J ~12gigatons in a cylinder that looks like it's ~1m long by .2m diameter, we'd be talking 96 teratons per warhead, so total warhead yield at 4/tube is 43 petatons.

Speaking of which, I think the ventral reload hatch is a very interesting idea. I will have to remember that when I start detailing the ventral hull.

So, for anyone who's interested, the currently visible dorsal/trench armament is:

18 400-teraton super-heavy TL (9x2)
128 170-teraton HTL (32x4)
192 40-teraton HTL (24x8)

For a total dorsal HTL alpha of: 36.64 petatons (~18 ISD)

Also:
48 heavy ion cannon (12x4)
112 capital missile tubes

And, an estimate (assuming quad mounts):
324 MTL (81x4) (adds ~65 teratons, assuming 200 gigaton/shot per

barrel)
7680 LTL (1920x4)

Four hundred teratons a shot. OUCH. Granted, I fitted a five hundred teraton weapon on a Frigate hull very much smaller than yours, but it well and truly DOMINATES the ship. The small Monitor, even more so. I haven't even done calcs for its weapons, but I've designed its secondary battery around rapid-firing quad MTLs/HTLs and double LTLs arranged to cover every sky arc with at least three HTLs, six MTLs, and dozens of LTLs. The main siege SHTL barrels fire forward only.

I also notice you like ball turrets for Ion Guns as well. Good taste. I also have Superlaser Ball Turrets if you're interested as well.

EDIT: Unfucked mangled quote tags.
Last edited by Einhander Sn0m4n on 2008-07-29 08:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fusion » 2008-07-29 02:48pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:And, an estimate (assuming quad mounts):
324 MTL (81x4) (adds ~65 teratons, assuming 200 gigaton/shot per barrel)
7680 LTL (1920x4)

Let me guess the horseshoe looking things on top of the central spine and the rows of triangles on the side are the medium turbos.
The little dots that are splattered across the hull is the light turbo laser. Right?

The light turbo lasers should be between 100 megaton and 10 gigatons depending on the model. Then there are the lasers...

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Postby evillejedi » 2008-08-03 02:05pm

Very nice work as always, I wish I had the determination to follow through on projects of this scale

I had a slightly different impression of the hull form of the vessel from DE that I experimented with here in a very unfinished form, the basis for the winglets is the odd downward bulging of the main engine array and an impression of a second bank of engines on the far side of the vessel. just thought it would be an interesting direction to take the vessel.

http://warlords.swrebellion.com/g2/main ... 2.jpg.html
http://warlords.swrebellion.com/g2/main ... 6.jpg.html
http://warlords.swrebellion.com/g2/main ... 4.jpg.html

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Postby Einhander Sn0m4n » 2008-08-03 05:35pm

evillejedi wrote:Very nice work as always, I wish I had the determination to follow through on projects of this scale

I had a slightly different impression of the hull form of the vessel from DE that I experimented with here in a very unfinished form, the basis for the winglets is the odd downward bulging of the main engine array and an impression of a second bank of engines on the far side of the vessel. just thought it would be an interesting direction to take the vessel.

http://warlords.swrebellion.com/g2/main ... 2.jpg.html
http://warlords.swrebellion.com/g2/main ... 6.jpg.html
http://warlords.swrebellion.com/g2/main ... 4.jpg.html

I have a nearly irresistable urge to make that into a giant Waverider thing; I wonder if a three klick long spaceplane would work in SW ^_^
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Postby fractalsponge1 » 2008-08-04 10:15am

Hey evillejedi, considering the state of progress on the warlords mod, I'd say you have a great deal of follow-through on grand projects :)

I remember playing around with that model in warlords - you had two giant twin turbolasers on the winglets I seem to remember. I decided against the wings in the beginning on the project, but they look very cool on your interpretation. You can see my interpretation of the second bank (plus my own additions) below and see you like them.

I was out of town this weekend, but did manage to block out the engines, reactor bulb, and provisional hangar arrangement. The hangars will be death star-style lateral hangars in the inset bays shown below - less vulnerable.

Working on the windows now. Added about a thousand to the terrace, checking the effect, and if it works will extend them through the rest of the detailed areas.

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Postby Raesene » 2008-08-04 11:14am

Powerful engines, and with large thrusters comparably far off the central axis, I'd expect her to be maneuverable - and fast.
I like the L-shaped hangar entrances/access openings to the individual bays.

This ship should be part of the EU-rewrite as the new Chimaera. It's a wrthy flagship for a Grand Admiral.

Spoilers for those playing the Dawn of Defiance-campaign:
If WotC's Sarlacc-ship is not to my taste, I'll use your Warrior-model

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Postby Darth Raptor » 2008-08-04 12:07pm

What kind of starfighter and Marine compliment are we talking about here, if any? I believe you mentioned earlier that she's a fighter, not a bard, but those hangar bays are nothing to sneeze at.

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Postby fractalsponge1 » 2008-08-04 07:34pm

@fusion:
Those assumptions about the visible form of the lighter weapons are correct. On a cgi-irrelevant but technically interesting note, I'm thinking the LTL are mainly very light-weight, rapid firing anti-fighter area defense, so the throw weight will be relatively low per shot but massive by volume. Well under 100megaton/shot is likely; enough to crisp a fighter but rapid firing enough to do point defense. Given that, the mediums take over the role of anti-corvette fire that LTLs might do on a destroyer.

The indented hangar areas are a bit less than half as long as an entire Imperator-class destroyer. I'm thinking there will be a series of hangars arranged like those in the Death Star equatorial trench - launch bays for shuttles and small transports, and space for TIE squadron racks. The hangars I see as largely external to the main structural skin of the hull, more built on top of a layer of armor with small feeds to internal magazines and power leads than really integral. That makes them a far less vulnerable opening into the ventral defenses, yet allows the ship to carry its own fighter escort and scouts.

By volume, if the internal space allocations are identical to those of an ISD then this ship should carry about 24 wings, and 24 legions (i.e. 6xcorps, so ~an Army sized formation). Since I intend for this ship to stand in the line (well, radically maneuvering swarm perhaps), the allocations will be much less. I'm thinking along the lines of 4-6 wings for the fighter group, plus transports and shuttles (heck, you could fit a couple of IPV/custom corvette patrol ships on racks in there for organic escort for itself or its attached bombers).

Troop wise, given the relatively limited space for heavy dropship assets, probably not much in the way of armor. Drop the surface base and engineering assets, won't need those in a squadron ship. 3/4 legions - enough for shipboard security and boarding action, and a useful enough capacity for dropping reinforcements into a recently bombarded world after the assault echelon comes out of accompanying ships.


Now for a long rambling post:

I imagine this ship is likely at the size limit for routine deployment. This ship gets sent out when real firepower would be useful, but speed and alacrity are still necessary, and an Executor would be overkill. In a sense, it is the evolutionary equivalent in the star cruiser weight range of the Imperator for the line destroyer and Executor for star battlecruiser/fast dreadnought. That is, at the upper end of the economical range for the category. Not big enough to blur the range like an Allegiance would for the destroyer classification, but spacious and balanced for the job in hand.

Which raises an interesting question: what is the real role of the star cruiser? For a destroyer, even as large as, say, an Allegiance, maneuver and acceleration are going to have to be dominant in their approach to battle; do not get hit by a real capital ship, like a dreadnought, or you are screwed. The successful designs, like the ISD, have the combination of power and stress tolerance this requires. Once you hit the level of a say, a Mandator, or an Executor, you have the strength to sit there, be a stable gun platform, and pound hell out of anything that blunders near you while gently wallowing in time with a line of sister ships.

In the middle are the cruisers, the "Anonymous star cruiser #1-5" range of ship. Probably too heavy to really dance like a 3500g-accelerating Imperator, but too light to stand there and suck it up as long as a Mandator. So what are they for? In a fleet engagement, I imagine they (or at least the bigger ones like this) would operate in squadrons, likely able threaten star battleships with coordinated fire. The biggest, like this one, may well be tough enough to take battery fire from a dreadnought, but unable to sit still very long lest the capital ship land a full broadside, and so must have the acceleration to do some footwork.

Separate from a battlefleet, it might lead a destroyer squadron, or operate as a heavy hunter. Likely this kind of ship would figure prominently in a regional or central reserve situation. Fast enough to run a wide variety of things down, and powerful enough to cull rogue imperial sector forces. Perhaps in the 3000-3200g range? Built strongly enough for tight turns, and with the power to make them.

Of course, the armament necessary to do all this, the strength and durability required, place a lot of demands on the powerplant to make it move at a survivable speed. How to reconcile all this? Strip out all the equipment that enables the Imperator to multi-role, and fill them with power generators and structural stiffening. Which, coming full circle with this remarkably long post, is why a ship with 25x the volume of an Imperator carries only 4x the attached fighter and troop assets.

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Postby Vehrec » 2008-08-04 08:47pm

Another thing to consider is energy reserves- by my classifications, a cruiser should simply have more endurance than a destroyer. It can afford to be weighted down by its fuel more than the destroyers can, run around the galaxy five times without refuelling, and keep itself in battle for up to six to ten hours at full power. The last one is the important bit.
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Postby Stark » 2008-08-04 09:21pm

What rationale did you use for the giant spine structure? What's it for or contain? Why is it unarmoured on the forward surface?

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Postby phongn » 2008-08-04 09:23pm

Are those reactors fully spherical? At least from the perspectives you imaged, I can't tell if they'd fit inside the hull.

Stark wrote:What rationale did you use for the giant spine structure? What's it for or contain? Why is it unarmoured on the forward surface?

There might be armor underneath all the superficial stuff.
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